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In the pocket - examples #2974583 02/08/19 07:01 PM
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waygetter Offline OP
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Would be nice to get a thread of examples going. Here's one I think is a stellar example (and he's doing it to a live recording to boot, crazy mad skills)



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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter] #2974595 02/08/19 07:49 PM
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That is very good, but I wouldn't say it's the very best. His fast melodic licks are a little too on top for pocket. Generally, bass should be on top of the beat, but the moment it's playing higher melodic licks, like those 16th note fills, it becomes a tenor/lead instrument and should lay back like a piano, guitar, or voice. If you listen to Wooten, Jaco, Bootsy, or any of the great legends, they slightly modify their feel by range and intent, even within a measure.

Don't get me wrong, this guy has more chops than I could ever dream having, but his fills could use just a little chill.

PS: Still tasty AF! Thanks!

Last edited by EricBarker; 02/08/19 07:52 PM.

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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter] #2974597 02/08/19 07:53 PM
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One example would be Miles Davis famous 1960's quintet with Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Ron Carter on bass and Tony Williams on drums. When soloing, Miles Davis liked to play his downbeats behind Tony Williams downbeats, and then Miles tended to synchronize on the "+" with Tony Williams. That's part of why Miles sounds like Miles Davis, his time, it sounds relaxed. Listen to his solo on "So What". Ron Carter usually played in the front most pocket of the band, he had a driving effect.

When I play organ or solo piano, my left hand plays it's downbeats ahead of my right hand downbeats. It sounds so much better! African American players made that a common thing in jazz and blues.




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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: EricBarker] #2974602 02/08/19 07:58 PM
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Beautiful! I did not read the description and don't know nothing about this particular performance. But to me it seems he's largely using the track as an accompaniment for his performance. If that's the case, then everything makes sense.

I don't know if i like the mask but I enjoyed everything else regardless.

Last edited by Sam CA; 02/08/19 07:59 PM.
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Jazz+] #2974603 02/08/19 08:05 PM
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There's some physics behind it too: lower frequencies take longer to develop and it also takes the human brain longer to process them. So it makes sense for the low end play first then when the highs start a bit later, they're perceived as being almost at the same time. If melody and bass are played together, the melody will sound ahead.

Feel is a life-long mission of mine, very high on my list. Beginning early on jazz trumpet, "laying back" was kind of pounded into me. When I play bass or drums, I really have to focus on not playing too late, where you can almost never be too late in melody or comping. Really trying to develop LH/RH time independence: LH: on-top, RH: laid back.

I have yet to really master intra-beat timing in the LH like "Jazz+" is describing. At least, I haven't been conscious of it. Definitely something I should think about!


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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: EricBarker] #2974607 02/08/19 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: EricBarker
There's some physics behind it too: lower frequencies take longer to develop and it also takes the human brain longer to process them. So it makes sense for the low end play first then when the highs start a bit later, they're perceived as being almost at the same time. If melody and bass are played together, the melody will sound ahead....


What about polyphonic instruments and/or any type of pitched/non-pitched ensemble?

Last edited by Sam CA; 02/08/19 08:34 PM.
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Sam CA] #2974620 02/08/19 09:11 PM
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To me the bass player in the initial video is not in the pocket at all. He is a bit rushed at times.

For some reason, when someone says "in the pocket" one of the first songs to come to my mind is "So Into You" by Atlanta Rhythm Section. So much counter rhythm between the guitar, keys and bass, held together by a straight forward drum rhythm. And they are locked tight, showing the value of years of playing together.

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: RABid] #2974626 02/08/19 09:28 PM
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Just queue up the Meters. 'Nuff said.


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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: RABid] #2974627 02/08/19 09:31 PM
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Talk about pocket?!?!



A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: kanker.] #2974629 02/08/19 09:33 PM
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A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: kanker.] #2974630 02/08/19 09:35 PM
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A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: RABid] #2974631 02/08/19 09:37 PM
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As I get older, I seem to be getting more sensitive to time and feel, and find myself bothered by drum fills that slip out of time.

Whether or not you like smooth jazz, I like the tight yet laid-back feel on this track, and the way that the drum fills stay in the groove.

Of course, keeping a steady feel like this is easy with modern technology and studio techniques, but not so easy with a live band, especially in a downtempo groove. smile


Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Groove58] #2974635 02/08/19 09:53 PM
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The entire albums are solid, but here:





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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: RABid] #2974637 02/08/19 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: RABid
To me the bass player in the initial video is not in the pocket at all. He is a bit rushed at times.
I agree. That's not my definition of "in the pocket." Listen to Al Jackson's drums on any Al Green recording. THAT's pocket.

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: El Lobo] #2974640 02/08/19 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: El Lobo
Originally Posted By: RABid
To me the bass player in the initial video is not in the pocket at all. He is a bit rushed at times.
I agree. That's not my definition of "in the pocket." Listen to Al Jackson's drums on any Al Green recording. THAT's pocket.


I agree. He's an accomplished player in technique and skill, but his time feel is not so good. Which is not unusual. He is a hundred miles from the time feel of So What.

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Jazz+] #2974647 02/08/19 10:41 PM
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Three very different examples of in the pocket.






Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter] #2974648 02/08/19 11:06 PM
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Steve Gadd + Eddie Gomez, you pick but I could listen to this example endlessly



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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Redknife] #2974652 02/08/19 11:26 PM
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Thanks for the examples guys, keep 'em coming!


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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter] #2974673 02/09/19 01:25 AM
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From about 3:20 on, the rhythm section cooks...



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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: wineandkeyz] #2974681 02/09/19 02:11 AM
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Larry Goldings on playing with Maceo Parker and the importance of time and tempo.


Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Paul Harrison] #2974695 02/09/19 03:13 AM
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The topic got me thinking. I looked online and found several bands named "Lint". whistle

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Piktor] #2974700 02/09/19 04:12 AM
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Kanker with the D'Angelo example. Yes indeed!!! Also welcome back Kanker!


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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Bobadohshe] #2974712 02/09/19 08:22 AM
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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Bobadohshe] #2974713 02/09/19 08:30 AM
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All such great music! I'm starting to question.. is there really any reason to play anything other than this stuff? I believe the answer is nope. No reason at all.


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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter] #2974721 02/09/19 09:35 AM
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TOP belongs on the thread! How 'bout a bari sax in the pocket?



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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Math&Music] #2974739 02/09/19 12:42 PM
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How about when a bass player and drummer who never play together in the same band come together for a song and nail it? That's talent ...



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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Delaware Dave] #2974742 02/09/19 12:49 PM
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Forget all of my other examples. This is the one.


Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: RABid] #2974823 02/09/19 06:51 PM
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Milt Jackson - vibes, Mickey Roker - drums, Cedar Walton - Rhodes, Ron Carter - bass, Jimmy Heath - sax

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter] #2974844 02/09/19 11:34 PM
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Here's another MonoNeon more into the pocket with Wayne Krantz on guitar who has great feel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oElSadn2Iv4

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Docbop] #2974849 02/10/19 12:05 AM
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Not denying that this mononeon guy has chops, but to my way of thinking, "in the pocket" refers to how one or more musicians play with each other, the pocket that's interactively created between them. Listening to someone play with a recording, no matter how good they are, doesn't do much for me.

I would also propose that the simpler the harmonic and melodic content, the more the pocket is exposed. One that has always stood out to me is Mother Popcorn by James Brown, and in particular the single line guitar track. So simple, so out in front, so in the pocket.


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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Adan] #2974852 02/10/19 12:28 AM
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sometimes pockets are stretchy:



sometimes they're loose:



and sometimes they're so tight you can't get anything in 'em:


Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Adan] #2974881 02/10/19 04:48 AM
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I chose these attempting to keep the best music quality separate from best grooves. even though very often best grooves are fertile ground for super creative music... such as Kind Of Blue. By groove I mean very dance friendly, there are other kind of grooves too.





Horns at the end of Donna Summer are killer tight.

Ricky Fataar on the simplest most killer drum fills... I adore this guys groove and fills.


This latin groove from 70's almost continuously intensifies. .. and I suspect there is a splice of the tape/ track. Unbelievable groove deadly drum fillss. Horn soloists must be in hog heaven ( Including Ronnie Cuber bari soloist ) And vocalists are on the money


James Moody solo to die for. Ray Brown Grady tate, jazz does not get more comfortable than this groove.








I cannot leave Elvin Jones out.


I played a jingle with this drummer... a highlight of my career.. For a trio to sound this strong, few come to mind to match.


Laugh if you wish but I love the drum track, esp, when the cymbal enters at "Just Dance"


Masterful bass and drums Steve Gadd and Gordon Edwards



For better or worse, Groove creation is the basis of my playing. I think groove first, never soloing first.
















Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: El Lobo] #2974920 02/10/19 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: El Lobo
Originally Posted By: RABid
To me the bass player in the initial video is not in the pocket at all. He is a bit rushed at times.
I agree. That's not my definition of "in the pocket." Listen to Al Jackson's drums on any Al Green recording. THAT's pocket.


Yes, Al Jackson with Duck Dunn.. Pocket city.

And what about EWF bass and drums.. -)

Rocco Prestia and Garibaldi

And Rocco's bad ass buddy, Bassist Paul Jackson with Harvey Mason, they did Headhunter for Herbie Hancock.





It took me many years to realize this trio was deadly in their groove dept... Ginger is killer.

Last edited by I-missRichardTee; 02/10/19 01:52 PM.

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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2974941 02/10/19 04:59 PM
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Guys... thank you thank you, yes Yes YES! so much great music! Turns out I didn't even know what 'in the pocket' meant... not sure I even do now, but lots to chew on. I think I've been in the pocket a few times, probably didn't realize it, probably called it something else, i.e. "wow that felt great!" or something.

All of the clips are great, I listened to each and every one. Some things I'm learning... it exists in many different styles, genres & tempos. I feel like I'm a kid in Mr. Schneebly's class in School of Rock, learning about the history, theory and appreciation of the pocket! Thanks again guys.


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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter] #2974944 02/10/19 05:46 PM
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Stayin' Alive is a drum loop, and I presume the Gaga track is programmed drums. I guess pocket can exist there too, but it's a ball game of another colo(u)r, if you catch my drift...

My favourite example of pocket is Nick Seymour's playing on Crowded House "Weather With You". This was a mahoosive hit in the UK, but didn't seem to make it stateside. It's a good demonstration of how pocket and groove can work magic on an introspective pop track (and yes there's a percussion loop on top of the live musicians, but that doesn't detract from the groove).

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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: stoken6] #2974958 02/10/19 06:38 PM
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A unique pocket. Nobody else has Monty's exciting time feel.


Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Jazz+] #2974967 02/10/19 07:58 PM
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In an effort to make conscious what is undoubtedly a part of my playing and as such is unconscious;
I want to ask what is pocket, and groove? Are they the same?
Here is a track I recorded with Billy Cobham.. me on bass I did not particularly like the tone of the bass.
Any of you expert analyzers out there wish to comment on what you hear going on groove, pocket wise?

Receiving a last minute call, I was not supposed to do this recording, as Stanley Clarke did all other tracks, and sounded great. Back in the days of tape, studio work puts pressure to do your best the first take ( Steely Dan being an exception !) with no mistakes. But hearing our playing on the track, I know if we had hours not a few minutes, we could have, well, I could have done better with my lines.

Knowing when to repeat a bass line and when and how to vary it, is the stuff of James Jamerson, Chuck Rainey, Stanley Clarke Marcus Miller.. giants in the business.


Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2974972 02/10/19 08:12 PM
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I want to take this opportunity to remind all players, not just the bass and drums influence the totality of the pocket or feel or groove or danceable quality of a track.

Single line people ( vocal, sax trumpet, piano solos guitar solos ) have a PROFOUND influence over the groove. James Brown was great in that arena as was a little known female named Marlena Shaw ( her best recording with David Hazeltine is not on Youtube ) .
The single line, if off, makes a groove more difficult for the guys in the trenches.

The "Puerto Rico" track above is about the best melding of ALL parts in the band I have ever heard, and it intensifies over time.

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Adan] #2974977 02/10/19 08:40 PM
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The Puerto Rico track???

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Jazz+] #2974979 02/10/19 08:46 PM
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I think of pocket as a pretty specific thing, in my mind it's the steady place a player chooses to play in relation to the other musicians steady place in time, if that makes sense; I think in general terms of "front side pocket (bass or drums)", "straight on top of it" (it= center pulse), "back side pocket" (melody, layed back)... groove is more of a general concept to me, it means time feel or time sense; you can say it's "a good groove" or "a bad groove" or "no groove"...

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Jazz+] #2974981 02/10/19 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
The Puerto Rico track???




I think I could manage a single line solo over this heavenly groove, but I am not so sure ( doubt it, these are best on the planet ) I could play in this rhythm section... as Salsa music is a tad foreign to me.. I love it, but it is not second nature.... Listen to the soloists... they are having a ball over this incredible groove. For me, this is as good as it gets.

For groove pocket reasons, THIS is my all time favorite track, after 40 years it still excites me tremendously . I am well aware there other kinds of groove... but these guys are nailing it for me. Pity, I understand this style is gone.

Edit Listen to it toward the end, about 5:30 on. The reason I say I do not think I could do the rhythm section justice as eg a bass player is because I cannot for the life of me precisely feel where the timbale player is accenting the upbeat on the cymbal and drum. I love it to death, but the precise placement of his upbeat accent eludes me!!
it is heaven on earth to me, for multiple guys hitting it, together. Maybe if I listened to the non existent band in person for a few years, that pulse would get inside me?

Last edited by I-missRichardTee; 02/10/19 09:19 PM.

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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2974984 02/10/19 09:25 PM
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For me, "In the pocket" means everyone is locked into the same grove. The entire band pushes or pulls together with the same amount of swing. No one is on their on with timing. A person playing lead has the option to dance around the timing as long as they return to the grove. Bass, drums and rhythm are always locked tight.

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: RABid] #2975029 02/11/19 05:20 AM
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Like a lot of JB's stuff, this is little more than one fat pocket, lol



Ahmad Jamal's Poinciana is a great example, thanks. Here's OP with Ray Brown and Ed Thigpen:




And anything from Herbie's Thrust album with Mike Clarke, Paul Jackson and Bill Summers. Jon Cleary with the Absolute Monster Gentlemen:





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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: niacin] #2975031 02/11/19 05:36 AM
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Yeah, I think pocket is specifically about timing and where on the beat notes fall. Groove is everything: what his are played where, with what instruments, and where the accents fall, etc. Pocket is also sub-category of Groove.

Curiously, I also think we use the term "Pocket" when we like what people are playing, with a lot of thought put into the timing. Something is "not pocket" if it's not working. What the pocket is is less specific, and changes depending on style, genre, and personal preference.

Last edited by EricBarker; 02/11/19 05:38 AM.

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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: EricBarker] #2975033 02/11/19 06:04 AM
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I'm reminded of a conversation with a guitarist, a top UK session player who toured with Bill Summers and Mike Clarke, from Herbie Hancock's Headhunters band, talking about groove and pocket, and he said what he felt distinguished good bass players from great bass players was the latter knew not only where to start the notes, but exactly where to end them.


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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: niacin] #2975044 02/11/19 09:34 AM
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“Groove as function of pocket.” I like that.

Pocket as expectation established. ... expectation of the performer’s timing scheme, relative to the underlying absolute time.

Groove as expression of pocket. In addition to the time aspect of pocket, groove encompasses dynamics, on/off, articulation (timbral). (On a higher level it includes phrasing, agogics.)

Time. Pocket. Groove. Time.

Pocket isn’t written in standard notation. It’s the performer’s interpretation of timing. Groove elements, other than that of pocket, are written down in notated music. (Absolute time is expressed by the tempo marking.) ... Written music, previously recorded or not, is brought to life, to a groove, when a musician plays in her/his determined pocket.

Both pocket and groove can be assessed on an individual and a combined basis. I.e., a player’s individual’s expression of pocket and groove, and a band’s cumulative expression.

Typically, the pocket is steady for a song, or a section. But, It can change and return on a dime. A wrinkle in time. Purposely dangerous.

The manifestation of players’ relative pockets (in parallel and serially) is dependent on the style and sophistication of the music and group of players. (2 hands of a player is a duo.) This manifestation of time relates to the energy released.

I don’t use the word, pocket. I use groove and time. (My musing here is merely that.)

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: dsetto] #2975045 02/11/19 09:53 AM
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It's amazing to me how 70% of people can't play in the pocket.


"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"


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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: dsetto] #2975046 02/11/19 09:53 AM
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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Groove58] #2975078 02/11/19 02:41 PM
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pocket groove "Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose."

Re: great bass players comment. I am 100% certain that Eric Clapton in an interview I saw on youtube said there are FIVE great drummers. I quite agree.

There is a school of thought, that I have heard my whole life... goes like this... There are so many great players! I tend to be pessismistic on the large number of great musicians.

Last edited by I-missRichardTee; 02/11/19 03:01 PM.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Outkaster] #2975080 02/11/19 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: Outkaster
It's amazing to me how 70% of people can't play in the pocket.


Re Musicians: My number one criticism is musicians including singers, do not groove all that well or at all. I believe it requires both that ability to play in a grooving way, and the ability to hear beyond your own instrument or voice. You have to hear more of the totality... yourself and the others around you.

I may be contradicting my past remarks... namely, 'thinking is bad for your music, during a performance' , however, I admit to occasional thoughts about adjustments to my placement of beat, based on what I hear around me in the band.
It is a mystery that is part of how I play. Sometimes I do not play a single note until I take in .. assess, where the groove or tempo, the collective of all those who are playing at the intro... IS. Then I enter. I may choose to favor dragging it down or pushing it forward or do neither. I am not playing with top players in these situations. I wonder if these micro adjustments are worth it. Maybe I should just meld where ever I find the center of the pulse or tempo, to be?

Last edited by I-missRichardTee; 02/11/19 06:09 PM.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2975101 02/11/19 04:15 PM
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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: hurricane hugo] #2975131 02/11/19 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: hurricane hugo
sometimes pockets are stretchy:



sometimes they're loose:



and sometimes they're so tight you can't get anything in 'em:



I never heard the Led Zep track, since I am not into that music... but the vibe of the music aside... that is great pocket playing by the whole band, with those many rests in the music, perhaps increasing the difficulty to be as cohesive as they are like

I don't think the Meters or James Brown are any tighter! Opinions?


You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: niacin] #2975137 02/11/19 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: niacin
I'm reminded of a conversation with a guitarist, a top UK session player who toured with Bill Summers and Mike Clarke, from Herbie Hancock's Headhunters band, talking about groove and pocket, and he said what he felt distinguished good bass players from great bass players was the latter knew not only where to start the notes, but exactly where to end them.


So true!! I sometimes get to play with a great player here, who is not an overly technical player, but he has this skill... the grooves are simply perfect, and when the pocket is so deep/the notes timed so well, you can relax and just fit into the pulse. It helps me to play less and say more.

Jerry

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: jerrythek] #2975178 02/11/19 10:05 PM
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Last edited by I-missRichardTee; 02/11/19 10:07 PM.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2975179 02/11/19 10:06 PM
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Two words: Al Green.



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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Outkaster] #2975186 02/11/19 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: Outkaster
It's amazing to me how 70% of people can't play in the pocket.


And then there's people like me, for whom playing in the pocket is the only thing they do really well. I'm just a hack at everything else, but being a pocket player has meant having as many gigs as I could handle over the years.


Crumar Seven, Crumar Mojo 61, Korg Vox Continental, Yamaha CP73.

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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Adan] #2975204 02/12/19 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: Adan
Originally Posted By: Outkaster
It's amazing to me how 70% of people can't play in the pocket.


And then there's people like me, for whom playing in the pocket is the only thing they do really well. I'm just a hack at everything else, but being a pocket player has meant having as many gigs as I could handle over the years.


Adan what is your instrument, where you do your pocket thing most effectively,, Clav, B3, piano, Rhodes!?
I would like to know what kind of parts you play that create pocket. I play organ and try to make these groove less*** san diegans play a little stronger in that area.

SO the issue is HOW, what means, single lines, lines in octaves, in fifths, chords in one hand, etc??
Unlessen you are a guitarist or bass player!

***I just played the second memorial gig for a local here ... and found some more groove type players, this past weekend. But I am sorry for any offense, but guitarists seem to not get the rhythm side of playing.

Last edited by I-missRichardTee; 02/12/19 12:59 AM.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2975208 02/12/19 01:06 AM
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Unless I'm missing something, the tune of mine which Steve Nathan banged into a killer Muscle Shoals soul ballad groove is fairly deep in the pocket. cool

dB

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Dave Bryce] #2975227 02/12/19 01:51 AM
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you are not missing anything. That is a very, very good track. thu


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2975245 02/12/19 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Here is a track I recorded with Billy Cobham.. me on bass I did not particularly like the tone of the bass.
Tone doesn't bother me. Further, this is amazingly rockin with some legendary world class players, you should be super proud of this, my hat is off to you IMRT


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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Dave Bryce] #2975246 02/12/19 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Two words: Al Green.
Here's another... I believe that Al is completely in the pocket! Towards the end they are just jammin, damn



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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter] #2975248 02/12/19 07:50 AM
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I am thinking this man is about my favorite singer of this style. Not an easy choice with Marvin Gaye, James Brown, Al Green in the wing .. He tickles my funny bone with this fantastic groove with the whole band, and his amazing rhythmic sense.




Godfather of Soul

Last edited by I-missRichardTee; 02/12/19 08:08 AM.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2975249 02/12/19 08:21 AM
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Not sure if this belongs here, but an old favorite.


You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Adan] #2975256 02/12/19 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: Adan
Originally Posted By: Outkaster
It's amazing to me how 70% of people can't play in the pocket.


And then there's people like me, for whom playing in the pocket is the only thing they do really well. I'm just a hack at everything else, but being a pocket player has meant having as many gigs as I could handle over the years.


I really wish I could say that about my own playing. I've been paying more and more attention to playing "in the pocket". I realize (too late) that it really doesn't mean anything if it's not tight. Took me some years to learn. Although I'm getting better, I'm not there yet.


Rudy

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: RudyS] #2975257 02/12/19 09:04 AM
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Can't talk about "pockets" without the vulfpeck/fearless flyer guys!



Rudy

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: RudyS] #2975268 02/12/19 10:18 AM
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There are lots of deep grooves from different cultures. Here is Jon Cleary's band showing a NOLA way to enjoy the pocket ...


Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: davedoerfler] #2975280 02/12/19 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
you are not missing anything. That is a very, very good track. thu

Thanks, Dave!

I'd love to say I wish I'd played on it....but I kinda don't. I like the way it came out just fine under the care of much better players than I, and am happy to have written and mixed it.

dB

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Dave Bryce] #2975300 02/12/19 12:39 PM
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Steve Jordan dr Marcus Miller eb Ricky Peterson B3 Sanborn as
Marcus is credited with the song




Maceo




Bruno remake out of Nashville



Cee Lo Green

Last edited by I-missRichardTee; 02/12/19 01:07 PM.
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter] #2975306 02/12/19 01:10 PM
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In a follow up to niacin's post with Jon Cleary:

Great grooves, both of them!! For absolute in the pocket-ness though I prefer the original versions by the Meters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoBIp817miY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QYbZsBPawI

And my all-time favorite Meters groove & personal choice for funkiest song ever, Hey Pocky A-Way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFz9GEYLq80

They were an example of 4 (and 5, once Cyrille was added to the group) players totally locked to the pocket.

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Adan] #2975311 02/12/19 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: Adan
Originally Posted By: Outkaster
It's amazing to me how 70% of people can't play in the pocket.


And then there's people like me, for whom playing in the pocket is the only thing they do really well. I'm just a hack at everything else, but being a pocket player has meant having as many gigs as I could handle over the years.


Good that's great to hear.


"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"


noblevibes.com

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Outkaster] #2975319 02/12/19 02:03 PM
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Jorge D'alto bad boy on keys
Harvey Mason impeccable Drummer

Even though tempo is a hair fast due to playing live excitement, they make it feel good


You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2975330 02/12/19 02:50 PM
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Kenny Kirkland's comping on this track is outstanding in my mind. Outside Salsa piano.. I hunger to hear pop, fusion, funk etc keyboard parts that are this rhythmic.



You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2975341 02/12/19 03:33 PM
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Check out Greg Allman on Elizabeth Reed here at 3:42:


Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Paul Harrison] #2975345 02/12/19 03:53 PM
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I remember seeing this interview with Maceo Parker as part of the PBS "History of Rock & Roll" back in 1995, and I have remembered it ever since as maybe the most perfect example of pocket I have ever seen:

https://youtu.be/a9Uybhk4_6A?t=473

tl:dr: Maceo has more funk in one drop of his spit than most people have in their entire body.

Last edited by danstein; 02/12/19 03:54 PM.
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: danstein] #2975372 02/12/19 05:59 PM
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Does anyone know if these are the same bass and drum legends, Rainey and Purdie, on both recordings?


You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2975398 02/12/19 07:16 PM
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Sorry, I cannot stop, this is my favorite topic

Steve Jordan and Marcus Miller with Ricky Peterson... whoa.





You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2975399 02/12/19 07:16 PM
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Once you figure out where 'in the pocket" is, being "out of the pocket" will give you hives. I play with one band where it's never even close, and it feels like trying to do a 40 yard dash on a hockey rink all night long.....

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: area51recording] #2975406 02/12/19 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: area51recording
Once you figure out where 'in the pocket" is, being "out of the pocket" will give you hives. I play with one band where it's never even close, and it feels like trying to do a 40 yard dash on a hockey rink all night long.....
Why? Is the pay good or are you good friends?

(Money, Music, Hang…)


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: danstein] #2975415 02/12/19 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: danstein
I remember seeing this interview with Maceo Parker as part of the PBS "History of Rock & Roll" back in 1995, and I have remembered it ever since as maybe the most perfect example of pocket I have ever seen:

https://youtu.be/a9Uybhk4_6A?t=473

tl:dr: Maceo has more funk in one drop of his spit than most people have in their entire body.


That was great! smile

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Joe Muscara] #2975423 02/12/19 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
Originally Posted By: area51recording
Once you figure out where 'in the pocket" is, being "out of the pocket" will give you hives. I play with one band where it's never even close, and it feels like trying to do a 40 yard dash on a hockey rink all night long.....
Why? Is the pay good or are you good friends?

(Money, Music, Hang…)


Pay is good

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: area51recording] #2975429 02/12/19 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: area51recording
Pay is good


And we know where pay goes...


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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter] #2975432 02/13/19 12:16 AM
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So many examples of "pocket playing". Here's one by the Meters, as mentioned on page 1. Cissy Strut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_iC0MyIykM


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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter] #2975436 02/13/19 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted By: waygetter
Originally Posted By: area51recording
Pay is good


And we know where pay goes...




Sure do. To everyone but me....

Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Raymb1] #2975443 02/13/19 01:13 AM
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Just to add to the Jon Cleary examples, this particular track has maximum groove
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeQNe8XFiLI

Sly Stone's In Time has quite the intricate pocket
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mld7eSaydI

And this D'angelo live pocket is pretty wild (it kicks in around 2:30 minutes in)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu1JVTvzzxM


Last edited by nckeysandrums; 02/13/19 01:14 AM.
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: nckeysandrums] #2975446 02/13/19 01:45 AM
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That whole album is awesome.
Quote:
Sly Stone's In Time has quite the intricate pocket


Thankful and Thoughful is another one with some genius pocket going on....


A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: kanker.] #2975459 02/13/19 08:46 AM
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Here's a track from a Hungarian singer. Pay attention to the drums specifically. The track travels through an incredible dynamic arc, yet the drums stay laid back and relaxed throughout, even in the climax.



There's an English version but the singing is not as good.



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Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: kanker.] #2975489 02/13/19 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: kanker.
That whole album is awesome.
Quote:
Sly Stone's In Time has quite the intricate pocket


Thankful and Thoughful is another one with some genius pocket going on....


Great and creative funk song. But that great bass part, is something for me to spend a lot of time with .


You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee] #2975522 02/13/19 03:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,109
David Loving Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,109
The Forever Fabulous Chickenhawks Showband and Allstar Review, featuring Luther Kent, with Charlie Brent's "Mambo Man." Mambo Man

Last edited by David Loving; 02/13/19 03:50 PM.

"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: David Loving] #2975523 02/13/19 03:54 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 429
R
Raymb1 Offline
Senior Member
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Senior Member
R
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 429
Just about anything Victor Wooten is on.


Casio PX5s, XWP1 and CPS SSV3
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Raymb1] #2975635 02/14/19 01:34 AM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 422
Paul Harrison Offline
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 422
Robben Ford, Omar Hakim, Joey DeFrancesco, and Rick Margitza


Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Paul Harrison] #2975814 02/14/19 11:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,202
Kawai James Offline
Platinum Member
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Platinum Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,202
James Brown, Meters, Sly Stone...oh yes!

How about some more NOLA love? Eddy Bo?



James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter] #2977630 02/26/19 09:08 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 6,461
Jazz+ Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
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MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 6,461
Check out the bass playing on this track, you’ll need decent speakers:


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