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#2974583 - 02/08/19 02:01 PM In the pocket - examples
waygetter Offline
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Would be nice to get a thread of examples going. Here's one I think is a stellar example (and he's doing it to a live recording to boot, crazy mad skills)

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#2974595 - 02/08/19 02:49 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter]
EricBarker Offline
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That is very good, but I wouldn't say it's the very best. His fast melodic licks are a little too on top for pocket. Generally, bass should be on top of the beat, but the moment it's playing higher melodic licks, like those 16th note fills, it becomes a tenor/lead instrument and should lay back like a piano, guitar, or voice. If you listen to Wooten, Jaco, Bootsy, or any of the great legends, they slightly modify their feel by range and intent, even within a measure.

Don't get me wrong, this guy has more chops than I could ever dream having, but his fills could use just a little chill.

PS: Still tasty AF! Thanks!


Edited by EricBarker (02/08/19 02:52 PM)
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#2974597 - 02/08/19 02:53 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter]
Jazz+ Offline
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One example would be Miles Davis famous 1960's quintet with Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Ron Carter on bass and Tony Williams on drums. When soloing, Miles Davis liked to play his downbeats behind Tony Williams downbeats, and then Miles tended to synchronize on the "+" with Tony Williams. That's part of why Miles sounds like Miles Davis, his time, it sounds relaxed. Listen to his solo on "So What". Ron Carter usually played in the front most pocket of the band, he had a driving effect.

When I play organ or solo piano, my left hand plays it's downbeats ahead of my right hand downbeats. It sounds so much better! African American players made that a common thing in jazz and blues.


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#2974602 - 02/08/19 02:58 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: EricBarker]
Sam CA Offline
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Registered: 12/05/18
Posts: 225
Loc: Los Angeles
Beautiful! I did not read the description and don't know nothing about this particular performance. But to me it seems he's largely using the track as an accompaniment for his performance. If that's the case, then everything makes sense.

I don't know if i like the mask but I enjoyed everything else regardless.


Edited by Sam CA (02/08/19 02:59 PM)
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#2974603 - 02/08/19 03:05 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Jazz+]
EricBarker Offline
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There's some physics behind it too: lower frequencies take longer to develop and it also takes the human brain longer to process them. So it makes sense for the low end play first then when the highs start a bit later, they're perceived as being almost at the same time. If melody and bass are played together, the melody will sound ahead.

Feel is a life-long mission of mine, very high on my list. Beginning early on jazz trumpet, "laying back" was kind of pounded into me. When I play bass or drums, I really have to focus on not playing too late, where you can almost never be too late in melody or comping. Really trying to develop LH/RH time independence: LH: on-top, RH: laid back.

I have yet to really master intra-beat timing in the LH like "Jazz+" is describing. At least, I haven't been conscious of it. Definitely something I should think about!
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#2974607 - 02/08/19 03:33 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: EricBarker]
Sam CA Offline
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Originally Posted By: EricBarker
There's some physics behind it too: lower frequencies take longer to develop and it also takes the human brain longer to process them. So it makes sense for the low end play first then when the highs start a bit later, they're perceived as being almost at the same time. If melody and bass are played together, the melody will sound ahead....


What about polyphonic instruments and/or any type of pitched/non-pitched ensemble?


Edited by Sam CA (02/08/19 03:34 PM)
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#2974620 - 02/08/19 04:11 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Sam CA]
On Vacation Offline
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To me the bass player in the initial video is not in the pocket at all. He is a bit rushed at times.

For some reason, when someone says "in the pocket" one of the first songs to come to my mind is "So Into You" by Atlanta Rhythm Section. So much counter rhythm between the guitar, keys and bass, held together by a straight forward drum rhythm. And they are locked tight, showing the value of years of playing together.

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#2974626 - 02/08/19 04:28 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: On Vacation]
Adan Offline
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Just queue up the Meters. 'Nuff said.
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#2974627 - 02/08/19 04:31 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: On Vacation]
kanker. Offline
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Talk about pocket?!?!

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#2974629 - 02/08/19 04:33 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: kanker.]
kanker. Offline
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#2974630 - 02/08/19 04:35 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: kanker.]
kanker. Offline
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#2974631 - 02/08/19 04:37 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: On Vacation]
Groove58 Offline
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As I get older, I seem to be getting more sensitive to time and feel, and find myself bothered by drum fills that slip out of time.

Whether or not you like smooth jazz, I like the tight yet laid-back feel on this track, and the way that the drum fills stay in the groove.

Of course, keeping a steady feel like this is easy with modern technology and studio techniques, but not so easy with a live band, especially in a downtempo groove. smile


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#2974635 - 02/08/19 04:53 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Groove58]
drawback Offline
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The entire albums are solid, but here:



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#2974637 - 02/08/19 05:00 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: On Vacation]
El Lobo Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
To me the bass player in the initial video is not in the pocket at all. He is a bit rushed at times.
I agree. That's not my definition of "in the pocket." Listen to Al Jackson's drums on any Al Green recording. THAT's pocket.

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#2974640 - 02/08/19 05:08 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: El Lobo]
Jazz+ Offline
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Originally Posted By: El Lobo
Originally Posted By: RABid
To me the bass player in the initial video is not in the pocket at all. He is a bit rushed at times.
I agree. That's not my definition of "in the pocket." Listen to Al Jackson's drums on any Al Green recording. THAT's pocket.


I agree. He's an accomplished player in technique and skill, but his time feel is not so good. Which is not unusual. He is a hundred miles from the time feel of So What.

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#2974647 - 02/08/19 05:41 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Jazz+]
On Vacation Offline
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Three very different examples of in the pocket.






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#2974648 - 02/08/19 06:06 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter]
Redknife Offline
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Loc: Lewisville, NC
Steve Gadd + Eddie Gomez, you pick but I could listen to this example endlessly

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#2974652 - 02/08/19 06:26 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Redknife]
waygetter Offline
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Thanks for the examples guys, keep 'em coming!
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#2974673 - 02/08/19 08:25 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter]
wineandkeyz Offline
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From about 3:20 on, the rhythm section cooks...

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#2974681 - 02/08/19 09:11 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: wineandkeyz]
Paul Harrison Offline
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Larry Goldings on playing with Maceo Parker and the importance of time and tempo.


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#2974695 - 02/08/19 10:13 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Paul Harrison]
Piktor Offline
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Loc: Edmonton, Canada
The topic got me thinking. I looked online and found several bands named "Lint". whistle

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#2974700 - 02/08/19 11:12 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Piktor]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Kanker with the D'Angelo example. Yes indeed!!! Also welcome back Kanker!
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#2974712 - 02/09/19 03:22 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Bobadohshe]
On Vacation Offline
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#2974713 - 02/09/19 03:30 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Bobadohshe]
waygetter Offline
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Loc: San Francisco, CA
All such great music! I'm starting to question.. is there really any reason to play anything other than this stuff? I believe the answer is nope. No reason at all.
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#2974721 - 02/09/19 04:35 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter]
Math&Music Offline
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TOP belongs on the thread! How 'bout a bari sax in the pocket?

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#2974739 - 02/09/19 07:42 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Math&Music]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Loc: Take a guess ....
How about when a bass player and drummer who never play together in the same band come together for a song and nail it? That's talent ...

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#2974742 - 02/09/19 07:49 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Delaware Dave]
On Vacation Offline
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Forget all of my other examples. This is the one.


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#2974823 - 02/09/19 01:51 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: On Vacation]
moj Offline
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Milt Jackson - vibes, Mickey Roker - drums, Cedar Walton - Rhodes, Ron Carter - bass, Jimmy Heath - sax

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#2974844 - 02/09/19 06:34 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter]
Docbop Offline
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Loc: CA
Here's another MonoNeon more into the pocket with Wayne Krantz on guitar who has great feel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oElSadn2Iv4

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#2974849 - 02/09/19 07:05 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Docbop]
Adan Offline
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Not denying that this mononeon guy has chops, but to my way of thinking, "in the pocket" refers to how one or more musicians play with each other, the pocket that's interactively created between them. Listening to someone play with a recording, no matter how good they are, doesn't do much for me.

I would also propose that the simpler the harmonic and melodic content, the more the pocket is exposed. One that has always stood out to me is Mother Popcorn by James Brown, and in particular the single line guitar track. So simple, so out in front, so in the pocket.
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