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#2974852 - 02/09/19 07:28 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Adan]
hurricane hugo Offline
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sometimes pockets are stretchy:



sometimes they're loose:



and sometimes they're so tight you can't get anything in 'em:

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#2974881 - 02/09/19 11:48 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Adan]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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I chose these attempting to keep the best music quality separate from best grooves. even though very often best grooves are fertile ground for super creative music... such as Kind Of Blue. By groove I mean very dance friendly, there are other kind of grooves too.





Horns at the end of Donna Summer are killer tight.

Ricky Fataar on the simplest most killer drum fills... I adore this guys groove and fills.


This latin groove from 70's almost continuously intensifies. .. and I suspect there is a splice of the tape/ track. Unbelievable groove deadly drum fillss. Horn soloists must be in hog heaven ( Including Ronnie Cuber bari soloist ) And vocalists are on the money


James Moody solo to die for. Ray Brown Grady tate, jazz does not get more comfortable than this groove.








I cannot leave Elvin Jones out.


I played a jingle with this drummer... a highlight of my career.. For a trio to sound this strong, few come to mind to match.


Laugh if you wish but I love the drum track, esp, when the cymbal enters at "Just Dance"


Masterful bass and drums Steve Gadd and Gordon Edwards



For better or worse, Groove creation is the basis of my playing. I think groove first, never soloing first.
















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#2974920 - 02/10/19 08:34 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: El Lobo]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: El Lobo
Originally Posted By: RABid
To me the bass player in the initial video is not in the pocket at all. He is a bit rushed at times.
I agree. That's not my definition of "in the pocket." Listen to Al Jackson's drums on any Al Green recording. THAT's pocket.


Yes, Al Jackson with Duck Dunn.. Pocket city.

And what about EWF bass and drums.. -)

Rocco Prestia and Garibaldi

And Rocco's bad ass buddy, Bassist Paul Jackson with Harvey Mason, they did Headhunter for Herbie Hancock.





It took me many years to realize this trio was deadly in their groove dept... Ginger is killer.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (02/10/19 08:52 AM)
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#2974941 - 02/10/19 11:59 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee]
waygetter Offline
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Guys... thank you thank you, yes Yes YES! so much great music! Turns out I didn't even know what 'in the pocket' meant... not sure I even do now, but lots to chew on. I think I've been in the pocket a few times, probably didn't realize it, probably called it something else, i.e. "wow that felt great!" or something.

All of the clips are great, I listened to each and every one. Some things I'm learning... it exists in many different styles, genres & tempos. I feel like I'm a kid in Mr. Schneebly's class in School of Rock, learning about the history, theory and appreciation of the pocket! Thanks again guys.
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#2974944 - 02/10/19 12:46 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: waygetter]
stoken6 Offline
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Stayin' Alive is a drum loop, and I presume the Gaga track is programmed drums. I guess pocket can exist there too, but it's a ball game of another colo(u)r, if you catch my drift...

My favourite example of pocket is Nick Seymour's playing on Crowded House "Weather With You". This was a mahoosive hit in the UK, but didn't seem to make it stateside. It's a good demonstration of how pocket and groove can work magic on an introspective pop track (and yes there's a percussion loop on top of the live musicians, but that doesn't detract from the groove).

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#2974958 - 02/10/19 01:38 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: stoken6]
Jazz+ Offline
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.
A unique pocket. Nobody else has Monty's exciting time feel.


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#2974967 - 02/10/19 02:58 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Jazz+]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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In an effort to make conscious what is undoubtedly a part of my playing and as such is unconscious;
I want to ask what is pocket, and groove? Are they the same?
Here is a track I recorded with Billy Cobham.. me on bass I did not particularly like the tone of the bass.
Any of you expert analyzers out there wish to comment on what you hear going on groove, pocket wise?

Receiving a last minute call, I was not supposed to do this recording, as Stanley Clarke did all other tracks, and sounded great. Back in the days of tape, studio work puts pressure to do your best the first take ( Steely Dan being an exception !) with no mistakes. But hearing our playing on the track, I know if we had hours not a few minutes, we could have, well, I could have done better with my lines.

Knowing when to repeat a bass line and when and how to vary it, is the stuff of James Jamerson, Chuck Rainey, Stanley Clarke Marcus Miller.. giants in the business.


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#2974972 - 02/10/19 03:12 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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I want to take this opportunity to remind all players, not just the bass and drums influence the totality of the pocket or feel or groove or danceable quality of a track.

Single line people ( vocal, sax trumpet, piano solos guitar solos ) have a PROFOUND influence over the groove. James Brown was great in that arena as was a little known female named Marlena Shaw ( her best recording with David Hazeltine is not on Youtube ) .
The single line, if off, makes a groove more difficult for the guys in the trenches.

The "Puerto Rico" track above is about the best melding of ALL parts in the band I have ever heard, and it intensifies over time.

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#2974977 - 02/10/19 03:40 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Adan]
Jazz+ Offline
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The Puerto Rico track???

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#2974979 - 02/10/19 03:46 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
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I think of pocket as a pretty specific thing, in my mind it's the steady place a player chooses to play in relation to the other musicians steady place in time, if that makes sense; I think in general terms of "front side pocket (bass or drums)", "straight on top of it" (it= center pulse), "back side pocket" (melody, layed back)... groove is more of a general concept to me, it means time feel or time sense; you can say it's "a good groove" or "a bad groove" or "no groove"...

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#2974981 - 02/10/19 04:06 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Jazz+]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
The Puerto Rico track???




I think I could manage a single line solo over this heavenly groove, but I am not so sure ( doubt it, these are best on the planet ) I could play in this rhythm section... as Salsa music is a tad foreign to me.. I love it, but it is not second nature.... Listen to the soloists... they are having a ball over this incredible groove. For me, this is as good as it gets.

For groove pocket reasons, THIS is my all time favorite track, after 40 years it still excites me tremendously . I am well aware there other kinds of groove... but these guys are nailing it for me. Pity, I understand this style is gone.

Edit Listen to it toward the end, about 5:30 on. The reason I say I do not think I could do the rhythm section justice as eg a bass player is because I cannot for the life of me precisely feel where the timbale player is accenting the upbeat on the cymbal and drum. I love it to death, but the precise placement of his upbeat accent eludes me!!
it is heaven on earth to me, for multiple guys hitting it, together. Maybe if I listened to the non existent band in person for a few years, that pulse would get inside me?


Edited by I-missRichardTee (02/10/19 04:19 PM)
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#2974984 - 02/10/19 04:25 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee]
On Vacation Offline
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For me, "In the pocket" means everyone is locked into the same grove. The entire band pushes or pulls together with the same amount of swing. No one is on their on with timing. A person playing lead has the option to dance around the timing as long as they return to the grove. Bass, drums and rhythm are always locked tight.

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#2975029 - 02/11/19 12:20 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: On Vacation]
niacin Offline
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Like a lot of JB's stuff, this is little more than one fat pocket, lol



Ahmad Jamal's Poinciana is a great example, thanks. Here's OP with Ray Brown and Ed Thigpen:




And anything from Herbie's Thrust album with Mike Clarke, Paul Jackson and Bill Summers. Jon Cleary with the Absolute Monster Gentlemen:



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#2975031 - 02/11/19 12:36 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: niacin]
EricBarker Offline
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Yeah, I think pocket is specifically about timing and where on the beat notes fall. Groove is everything: what his are played where, with what instruments, and where the accents fall, etc. Pocket is also sub-category of Groove.

Curiously, I also think we use the term "Pocket" when we like what people are playing, with a lot of thought put into the timing. Something is "not pocket" if it's not working. What the pocket is is less specific, and changes depending on style, genre, and personal preference.


Edited by EricBarker (02/11/19 12:38 AM)
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#2975033 - 02/11/19 01:04 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: EricBarker]
niacin Offline
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I'm reminded of a conversation with a guitarist, a top UK session player who toured with Bill Summers and Mike Clarke, from Herbie Hancock's Headhunters band, talking about groove and pocket, and he said what he felt distinguished good bass players from great bass players was the latter knew not only where to start the notes, but exactly where to end them.
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#2975044 - 02/11/19 04:34 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: niacin]
dsetto Offline
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“Groove as function of pocket.” I like that.

Pocket as expectation established. ... expectation of the performer’s timing scheme, relative to the underlying absolute time.

Groove as expression of pocket. In addition to the time aspect of pocket, groove encompasses dynamics, on/off, articulation (timbral). (On a higher level it includes phrasing, agogics.)

Time. Pocket. Groove. Time.

Pocket isn’t written in standard notation. It’s the performer’s interpretation of timing. Groove elements, other than that of pocket, are written down in notated music. (Absolute time is expressed by the tempo marking.) ... Written music, previously recorded or not, is brought to life, to a groove, when a musician plays in her/his determined pocket.

Both pocket and groove can be assessed on an individual and a combined basis. I.e., a player’s individual’s expression of pocket and groove, and a band’s cumulative expression.

Typically, the pocket is steady for a song, or a section. But, It can change and return on a dime. A wrinkle in time. Purposely dangerous.

The manifestation of players’ relative pockets (in parallel and serially) is dependent on the style and sophistication of the music and group of players. (2 hands of a player is a duo.) This manifestation of time relates to the energy released.

I don’t use the word, pocket. I use groove and time. (My musing here is merely that.)

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#2975045 - 02/11/19 04:53 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: dsetto]
Outkaster Offline
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It's amazing to me how 70% of people can't play in the pocket.
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#2975046 - 02/11/19 04:53 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: dsetto]
Groove58 Offline
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#2975078 - 02/11/19 09:41 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Groove58]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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pocket groove "Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose."

Re: great bass players comment. I am 100% certain that Eric Clapton in an interview I saw on youtube said there are FIVE great drummers. I quite agree.

There is a school of thought, that I have heard my whole life... goes like this... There are so many great players! I tend to be pessismistic on the large number of great musicians.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (02/11/19 10:01 AM)
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#2975080 - 02/11/19 09:45 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Outkaster]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Outkaster
It's amazing to me how 70% of people can't play in the pocket.


Re Musicians: My number one criticism is musicians including singers, do not groove all that well or at all. I believe it requires both that ability to play in a grooving way, and the ability to hear beyond your own instrument or voice. You have to hear more of the totality... yourself and the others around you.

I may be contradicting my past remarks... namely, 'thinking is bad for your music, during a performance' , however, I admit to occasional thoughts about adjustments to my placement of beat, based on what I hear around me in the band.
It is a mystery that is part of how I play. Sometimes I do not play a single note until I take in .. assess, where the groove or tempo, the collective of all those who are playing at the intro... IS. Then I enter. I may choose to favor dragging it down or pushing it forward or do neither. I am not playing with top players in these situations. I wonder if these micro adjustments are worth it. Maybe I should just meld where ever I find the center of the pulse or tempo, to be?


Edited by I-missRichardTee (02/11/19 01:09 PM)
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You don’t have ideas, ideas have you Carl Jung
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#2975101 - 02/11/19 11:15 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee]
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#2975131 - 02/11/19 01:17 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: hurricane hugo]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: hurricane hugo
sometimes pockets are stretchy:



sometimes they're loose:



and sometimes they're so tight you can't get anything in 'em:



I never heard the Led Zep track, since I am not into that music... but the vibe of the music aside... that is great pocket playing by the whole band, with those many rests in the music, perhaps increasing the difficulty to be as cohesive as they are like

I don't think the Meters or James Brown are any tighter! Opinions?
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You don’t have ideas, ideas have you Carl Jung
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#2975137 - 02/11/19 01:52 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: niacin]
jerrythek Offline
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Originally Posted By: niacin
I'm reminded of a conversation with a guitarist, a top UK session player who toured with Bill Summers and Mike Clarke, from Herbie Hancock's Headhunters band, talking about groove and pocket, and he said what he felt distinguished good bass players from great bass players was the latter knew not only where to start the notes, but exactly where to end them.


So true!! I sometimes get to play with a great player here, who is not an overly technical player, but he has this skill... the grooves are simply perfect, and when the pocket is so deep/the notes timed so well, you can relax and just fit into the pulse. It helps me to play less and say more.

Jerry

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#2975178 - 02/11/19 05:05 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: jerrythek]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Edited by I-missRichardTee (02/11/19 05:07 PM)
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#2975179 - 02/11/19 05:06 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee]
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#2975186 - 02/11/19 05:45 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Outkaster]
Adan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Outkaster
It's amazing to me how 70% of people can't play in the pocket.


And then there's people like me, for whom playing in the pocket is the only thing they do really well. I'm just a hack at everything else, but being a pocket player has meant having as many gigs as I could handle over the years.
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#2975204 - 02/11/19 07:56 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Adan]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Adan
Originally Posted By: Outkaster
It's amazing to me how 70% of people can't play in the pocket.


And then there's people like me, for whom playing in the pocket is the only thing they do really well. I'm just a hack at everything else, but being a pocket player has meant having as many gigs as I could handle over the years.


Adan what is your instrument, where you do your pocket thing most effectively,, Clav, B3, piano, Rhodes!?
I would like to know what kind of parts you play that create pocket. I play organ and try to make these groove less*** san diegans play a little stronger in that area.

SO the issue is HOW, what means, single lines, lines in octaves, in fifths, chords in one hand, etc??
Unlessen you are a guitarist or bass player!

***I just played the second memorial gig for a local here ... and found some more groove type players, this past weekend. But I am sorry for any offense, but guitarists seem to not get the rhythm side of playing.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (02/11/19 07:59 PM)
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#2975208 - 02/11/19 08:06 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Unless I'm missing something, the tune of mine which Steve Nathan banged into a killer Muscle Shoals soul ballad groove is fairly deep in the pocket. cool

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#2975227 - 02/11/19 08:51 PM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: Dave Bryce]
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you are not missing anything. That is a very, very good track. thu
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#2975245 - 02/12/19 12:11 AM Re: In the pocket - examples [Re: I-missRichardTee]
waygetter Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Here is a track I recorded with Billy Cobham.. me on bass I did not particularly like the tone of the bass.
Tone doesn't bother me. Further, this is amazingly rockin with some legendary world class players, you should be super proud of this, my hat is off to you IMRT
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