Yamaha CP88 and 73 - Deserve their own thread

[AnotherScott]

It's what I've been missing from the world class CP4 - Nord quality EPs and clavs

The clavs may sound good, but there is still the limitation that there are only two Clav sounds in it. Nord has all 4 fundamental clav sounds (pickup positions), and often at least some of the selectable EQs (depending on the model). OTOH, people don't always hold Nord up as the model of clav excellence either, and I could imagine the Yamaha even sounding better within the subset of the clav sounds it does have, by the virtue of larger sample sets... more velocity layers, release samples, whatever. I know many have said that Hammond does clav better than Nord, and it really does come down to what you're listening for. I liked Hammond's release samples, but I preferred Nord for less obviously velocity switching.

 

EPs are another interesting comparison, as people haven't always agreed about the quality of Nord's Rhodes sounds either... and in fact, Nord just did a major upgrade to them about a month ago. But especially back when the CP4 came out, there was a lot of talk about how good Yamaha's EPs were, with their SCM modeling... desirable enough that many people were interested in the Reface CP just to get Yamaha's nice CP sounds. So it seems that, even then, people often preferred Yamaha's Rhodes sounds to Nord and many others. It's interesting that you find the new CP EPs (without SCM) to be better than the ones in the CP4. As someone else mentioned, maybe the real benefit of SCM was getting better results out of a relatively small sample set, but it can still be bettered by the "brute force" of a larger sample set, which maybe the new CP has. I never played the EP on the CP4, but I did briefly try a Reface, and it did not meet the expectations I had from the hype.

 

Curious how the feel of the CP88 keyboard was. According to Yamaha PR its the same or maybe even upgraded from the CP4 but maybe thats not correct.

 

Yamaha sez the action of the CPs is close to Montage8

 

Only on CP73 model. CP88 is completely different.

Right, and even the thing about the 73 feeling like the Montage 8 is from (as far as I've seen) a single Yamaha person who seemed to be giving his subjective impression of how it played, rather than disseminating technical knowledge of the design, and we all know how subjective comparisons of actions can differ, so I'm not ready to take as gospel that the CP73 action is similar to the Montage 8, at least apart from the known similarity that they are both balanced as opposed to graded.

[Fleer]

We need more perspectives on that CP73 action!

[stoken6]

I'm not ready to take as gospel that the CP73 action is similar to the Montage 8, at least apart from the known similarity that they are both balanced as opposed to graded.

I can't see how they can make 73 Montage keys weigh 28lb!

 

Cheers, Mike.

[drawback]

Theyre the best at many things, but Ive never liked Yamahas version of any keyboard instruments other than pianos.

 

I cant understand: when a company with their resources and buying power cant seem to emulate the core fundamentals of Rhodes/Wurlitzer/Clavinet/Hammond by now - it seems to me its gotta be because they simply refuse to.

 

Its as if they really believe an Electone is going to someday supplant the B3 and the world will finally come to their senses in the realization that Dyno was the highest evolved Rhodes after all.

[jimkost2002]

I'm not ready to take as gospel that the CP73 action is similar to the Montage 8, at least apart from the known similarity that they are both balanced as opposed to graded.

I can't see how they can make 73 Montage keys weigh 28lb!

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Its not the ACTION that makes the Montage heavy, its the internal horsepower , chassis eyc, its a BULKY sucker!. Witness that the synth action versions are also heavy

[jimkost2002]

Curious how the feel of the CP88 keyboard was. According to Yamaha PR its the same or maybe even upgraded from the CP4 but maybe thats not correct.

 

The AvantGrande N1X may be nicer feel but the MSRP = $10,999 so a little too rich for my budget although it would look nice in my house.

 

 

 

Yamaha sez the action of the CPs is close to Montage8

 

Only on CP73 model. CP88 is completely different.

 

Blake was a little unclear in many of the demos. He keeps mentioning Montage not just in conjuction with the 73, despite citing the difference in 73 and 88 actions. But I stand corrected nonetheless!

[Adan]

Theyre the best at many things, but Ive never liked Yamahas version of any keyboard instruments other than pianos.

 

I cant understand: when a company with their resources and buying power cant seem to emulate the core fundamentals of Rhodes/Wurlitzer/Clavinet/Hammond by now - it seems to me its gotta be because they simply refuse to.

 

 

I've long harbored the same view. Today, virtually every other manufacturer can put a decent leslie sim in a $2,000 keyboard. For some reason, Yamaha cannot.

 

It's as if they set out to prove that having the best acoustic piano emulation can overcome every other weakness. And you know what, they've made a strong case for just that proposition.

[zephonic]

I played each briefly at NAMM and while the CP88 action feels a little nicer, the difference isnt enough to matter much to me. The 73 simply feels great, too.

 

AFAICT, the EPs are the same as whats in the Montage/MODX. They sound good, but not world-beating like the CFX and Imperial samples. Still, I think the new CPs are terrific, and if I hadnt just bought the MODX8, Id definitely get one.

 

[Fleer]

@zephonic: could you give us a comparison perspective on that CP73's BHS (Balanced Hammer Standard) action? In any way similar to Yamaha's GHS (Graded Hammer Standard) action on your MODX8, apart from the graded thing of course? Or indeed similar to the Montage 7, as I would hope, even without the aftertouch feature?

 

[1203]

I played each briefly at NAMM and while the CP88 action feels a little nicer, the difference isnt enough to matter much to me. The 73 simply feels great, too.

 

AFAICT, the EPs are the same as whats in the Montage/MODX. They sound good, but not world-beating like the CFX and Imperial samples. Still, I think the new CPs are terrific, and if I hadnt just bought the MODX8, Id definitely get one.

 

Oh, i thought the EPs are new samples...? And from what i hear in the demos, they sound different... (?)

[gg22]

Theyre the best at many things, but Ive never liked Yamahas version of any keyboard instruments other than pianos.

 

I cant understand: when a company with their resources and buying power cant seem to emulate the core fundamentals of Rhodes/Wurlitzer/Clavinet/Hammond by now - it seems to me its gotta be because they simply refuse to.

 

Its as if they really believe an Electone is going to someday supplant the B3 and the world will finally come to their senses in the realization that Dyno was the highest evolved Rhodes after all.

Yeah, they are the best at emulating acoustic guitars, orchestral instruments, violins, marimbas, horns but always sucked at keyboard instruments. Considering their resources, I think it's just somebody up there the corporate ladder has different tastes.

And that's why after a long time, I'm free of Yamaha's stuff, except a home digital piano.

[Polkahero]

Theyre the best at many things, but Ive never liked Yamahas version of any keyboard instruments other than pianos.

 

I cant understand: when a company with their resources and buying power cant seem to emulate the core fundamentals of Rhodes/Wurlitzer/Clavinet/Hammond by now - it seems to me its gotta be because they simply refuse to.

 

Its as if they really believe an Electone is going to someday supplant the B3 and the world will finally come to their senses in the realization that Dyno was the highest evolved Rhodes after all.

Yeah, they are the best at emulating acoustic guitars, orchestral instruments, violins, marimbas, horns but always sucked at keyboard instruments. Considering their resources, I think it's just somebody up there the corporate ladder has different tastes.

And that's why after a long time, I'm free of Yamaha's stuff, except a home digital piano.

 

I thought Kurzweil was the best when it came to acoustic instruments?

[AnotherScott]

Its not the ACTION that makes the Montage heavy, its the internal horsepower , chassis eyc, its a BULKY sucker!. Witness that the synth action versions are also heavy

I think it's a combination. Notice the Montage 88 with hammer action is a whopping 26+ lbs more than the Montage non-hammer 76, about 70% heavier for 15% more keys, that's what moving to the hammer action (and the larger chassis needed to support it) does to a Montage.

 

Today, virtually every other manufacturer can put a decent leslie sim in a $2,000 keyboard. For some reason, Yamaha cannot.

I'm not sure I buy that premise. I mean, if you don't count boards that are specifically sold as clonewheels, what up-to-$2k boards have strong Leslie sims? Heck, even some that *do* have clonewheel engines don't have great leslie sims. Is Yamaha's sim noticeably weaker than what you'd find in a Roland RD2000? Any Dexibell or Kawai? Any of the non-CX3 Korgs? Even the Kurzweils?

 

I thought Kurzweil was the best when it came to acoustic instruments?

It varies with the instrument and personal taste, but I think there has been something of a consensus that Yamaha and Kurz are the best overall at acoustic instruments. Though Roland Integra 7 and Korg Kronos are stronger than the rest of those companies' lines. Part of that is design philosophy... Yamaha and Kurzweil have generally put the same sounds in their low end boards as their high end, Roland and Korg more often do not.

[Lady Gaia]

I can't see how they can make 73 Montage keys weigh 28lb!

 

The Montage 7 doesn't have the same action as the Montage 8. It uses the same lighter synth action as the Montage 6 rather than the hammer action of the beastly 88 key version.

[Fleer]

So does the CP73 resemble the action on the Montage 7?

[stoken6]

I can't see how they can make 73 Montage keys weigh 28lb!

 

The Montage 7 doesn't have the same action as the Montage 8. It uses the same lighter synth action as the Montage 6 rather than the hammer action of the beastly 88 key version.

I thought the implication of hammer-action was obvious, but maybe not. I'm referring to "the same action as the Montage" 88.

 

Its not the ACTION that makes the Montage heavy, its the internal horsepower , chassis eyc, its a BULKY sucker!. Witness that the synth action versions are also heavy

I think it's a combination. Notice the Montage 88 with hammer action is a whopping 26+ lbs more than the Montage non-hammer 76, about 70% heavier for 15% more keys, that's what moving to the hammer action (and the larger chassis needed to support it) does to a Montage.

Scott understands me.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[agitato]

Are the clavs in the new cps the same as those in the modx?

[RandyFF]

So... what case would you make for buying the new CP's over the MoDX? I was surprised at myself, considering buying MODX7. The weight and generally favorable reports of user friendliness, the wheels on top, and the sounds lifted from the Montage. Alot of board for $1,500-$1,900.

 

CPs

+ Nord like UI

+ built-in 2 out audio interface

+ pedal included for half-pedaling

+ balanced outs as well as 1/4" outs

- small sound set, significant time delay before more introduced, unclear if there's 1GB or more of additional samples that can be used

 

MODX

+ significantly lighter weight

+ entire Montage soundset/samples

+ built-in 4 out audio interface

+ 1GB sample expansion

+ larger display for more editing options

+ live sets

+ super knob

+ A/D input, iOS instrument support

+ vocoder

+ 8 operator FM engine

+ dedicated USB volume knob

+ advanced integration with computers

+ available in 3 sizes

- not as user friendly

 

 

This is kind of a stumper. On the one hand I love the Nord-like interface of the CPs, that's worth alot right there as I tend to buy features that don't end up using because I don't want to spend too much time learning a board instead of playing it.

 

But if Yamaha has indeed succeeded in making the MODX boards user friendly (unlike any Yamaha I've used before), then the MODX boards have more capability, cost less, weigh less and have a significantly larger soundset and another engine.

 

And of course there's the action on these boards. The MODX7 is synth, the CP73 is weighted. At 28 pounds for the CP73, if the action was decent that'd be a huge plus as well for the CPs.

 

WDYT?

 

Randy

 

 

[kbrkr]

What is with the super cheap On/Off switches for each section? I used to buy these at Radio Shack in the 80's?

[Fleer]

So... what case would you make for buying the new CP's over the MoDX? I was surprised at myself, considering buying MODX7. The weight and generally favorable reports of user friendliness, the wheels on top, and the sounds lifted from the Montage. Alot of board for $1,500-$1,900.

 

CPs

+ Nord like UI

+ built-in 2 out audio interface

+ pedal included for half-pedaling

+ balanced outs as well as 1/4" outs

- small sound set, significant time delay before more introduced, unclear if there's 1GB or more of additional samples that can be used

 

MODX

+ significantly lighter weight

+ entire Montage soundset/samples

+ built-in 4 out audio interface

+ 1GB sample expansion

+ larger display for more editing options

+ live sets

+ super knob

+ A/D input, iOS instrument support

+ vocoder

+ 8 operator FM engine

+ dedicated USB volume knob

+ advanced integration with computers

+ available in 3 sizes

- not as user friendly

 

 

This is kind of a stumper. On the one hand I love the Nord-like interface of the CPs, that's worth alot right there as I tend to buy features that don't end up using because I don't want to spend too much time learning a board instead of playing it.

 

But if Yamaha has indeed succeeded in making the MODX boards user friendly (unlike any Yamaha I've used before), then the MODX boards have more capability, cost less, weigh less and have a significantly larger soundset and another engine.

 

And of course there's the action on these boards. The MODX7 is synth, the CP73 is weighted. At 28 pounds for the CP73, if the action was decent that'd be a huge plus as well for the CPs.

 

WDYT?

 

Randy

 

Actually don't care much for the MODX actions. MODX8's GHS has a history of clunky noises and the MODX6/7 are quite flimsy.

That's why I'm hoping the CP73's action will be divine ...

[unitjazz]

 

I blame Yamaha for having one of the most confusing and diluted description schemes, regarding the actions they put in their instruments. Every one seems to have a different name or slight variation.

 

Here is a listing of actions on some of the models being discussed here, right from Yamahas spec sheet of each model ...

 

Montage 8 - Balanced Hammer Effect

CP73 - Balanced Hammer Standard

MODX 8 - Graded Hammer Standard

MOFX 8 -Graded Hammer Standard (Initial Touch)

 

As you can see, each one is listed differently in some way.

 

As I follow this thread, I am getting confused by all the apples-to-oranges comparisons. Even Yamaha reps are clouding the waters, because it is not fair to refer to a Montage as a standard reference of an action, as there are two different keybeds on Montage models (Balanced Hammer Effect and FSX).

 

Comparing the 88 note Montage BHE action to the 73 note CP73 may be fair, but the CP73 is not BHE, but rather BHS !!!??? (May feel the same, but lacks aftertouch ???). And dont even bring the CP88s NW-GH action into the discussion, because that can only be compared to the CP4s action, not the Montage 8s action.

 

And if we start to get into a discussion of weight solely, that opens up another can of worms. The CP73 at 28 lbs wins, but the 38 lbs CP4 has better piano action, yet the CP88 at 41 lbs offers a (heavier) compromise between the CP73 and the CP4, but my 47 lbs. Roland RD-800 kicks all their butts as a stage piano...but has a bigger butt !!!

 

Likewise with the MODX 8 versus the MOFX 8, since the older MOFX specifies Initial Touch and there is no such specification for the new MODX. Can we assume they feel the same, but may lack an additional feature ? At least the difference in weight between them is insignificant. This is an easy choice, as the MODX 8 is clearly an upgrade from the MOFX 8 (although for me, it is a non-starter, as I dislike the GHS action).

 

Unfortunately for me, this has only confused me more. I want a less-than-30 lbs 73 note keyboard with the action of a CP-4 (or RD-800, like I own), but want the acoustic piano sound I get from my Soniccouture Hammersmith app, while having the Rhoads electric piano sounds from my Yamaha S90es, and I would prefer not to have toggle switches that stick up from the front panel that will likely be vulnerable to being snapped off in transport...and I would like it to be under $1500. Is that too much to ask ???

 

[AnotherScott]

WDYT?

MODX is much more capable. Choose the CP if you are willing to lose a bunch of those capabilities for some combination of action preferences (i.e. a likely better 88, or a hammer action 73), Nord-like direct-dedicated control operation, balanced outs, internal power supply, aluminum vs. plastic chassis.

 

Likewise with the MODX 8 versus the MOFX 8, since the older MOFX specifies Initial Touch and there is no such specification for the new MODX. Can we assume they feel the same, but may lack an additional feature ?

Whether it says it or not, both have "initial touch" -- that's what Yamaha calls an action that is velocity sensitive (which is almost everything they make).

[zephonic]

@zephonic: could you give us a comparison perspective on that CP73's BHS (Balanced Hammer Standard) action? In any way similar to Yamaha's GHS (Graded Hammer Standard) action on your MODX8, apart from the graded thing of course? Or indeed similar to the Montage 7, as I would hope, even without the aftertouch feature?

 

I definitely like the BH better, always have. But I don't mind the GHS as much as I used to.

 

AFAICT, the EPs are the same as whats in the Montage/MODX. They sound good, but not world-beating like the CFX and Imperial samples.

 

Oh, i thought the EPs are new samples...? And from what i hear in the demos, they sound different... (?)

 

I didn't do an in-depth side-by-side comparison, but they sounded and felt very similar to my MODX.

 

[burningbusch]

AFAICT, the EPs are the same as whats in the Montage/MODX. They sound good, but not world-beating like the CFX and Imperial samples.

 

Oh, i thought the EPs are new samples...? And from what i hear in the demos, they sound different... (?)

 

I didn't do an in-depth side-by-side comparison, but they sounded and felt very similar to my MODX.

 

Since the CP-1, Yamaha has been using, for the most part, a naming of the Rhodes using dates. For example, the CP-1 included:

 

71Rd I

73Rd I

75Rd I

78Rd II

Dyno

 

AFAIK, these are all present in the CP-5 and CP-4

 

The Montage/MODX has all the original "small" sampled Rhodes from the Motif/S90 series PLUS two named RD Soft (five velocities) and RD Hard (four velocities) respectively. In addition, there are two sampled versions, apparently, of the CP-1/4/5 SCM Rhodes named Rd73 and Rd78. My ear tells me Rd73 and Rd78 are possibly re-samples of a CP-1 as you can hear some of the SCM elements in the lowest velocities that don't sound like an actual Rhodes but more like a re-sampling. I certainly could be wrong. Regardless, they sound very familiar to the CP-1/4/5.

 

The new CP88/CP73 only list three: Rd78, Rd75, Rd73. As these are purportedly sampled, I think they might be close to those sampled versions on the Montage/MODX.

 

Busch.

[zephonic]

Thanks, Busch!

 

Do you have similarly detailed info on the AP's in the respective series as well?

[Fleer]

And thanks, zephonic!

Were you able to compare the CP73s Standard BHS to the BH actions from yore? Is the new kid as good as you remember?

[zephonic]

And thanks, zephonic!

Were you able to compare the CP73s Standard BHS to the BH actions from yore? Is the new kid as good as you remember?

 

I didn't know they are different. I like both.

 

"Nothing more to say about it I have."

 

[Fleer]

Ingratiated I am.

[jimkost2002]

So... what case would you make for buying the new CP's over the MoDX? I was surprised at myself, considering buying MODX7. The weight and generally favorable reports of user friendliness, the wheels on top, and the sounds lifted from the Montage. Alot of board for $1,500-$1,900.

 

CPs

+ Nord like UI

+ built-in 2 out audio interface

+ pedal included for half-pedaling

+ balanced outs as well as 1/4" outs

- small sound set, significant time delay before more introduced, unclear if there's 1GB or more of additional samples that can be used

 

MODX

+ significantly lighter weight

+ entire Montage soundset/samples

+ built-in 4 out audio interface

+ 1GB sample expansion

+ larger display for more editing options

+ live sets

+ super knob

+ A/D input, iOS instrument support

+ vocoder

+ 8 operator FM engine

+ dedicated USB volume knob

+ advanced integration with computers

+ available in 3 sizes

- not as user friendly

 

 

This is kind of a stumper. On the one hand I love the Nord-like interface of the CPs, that's worth alot right there as I tend to buy features that don't end up using because I don't want to spend too much time learning a board instead of playing it.

 

But if Yamaha has indeed succeeded in making the MODX boards user friendly (unlike any Yamaha I've used before), then the MODX boards have more capability, cost less, weigh less and have a significantly larger soundset and another engine.

 

And of course there's the action on these boards. The MODX7 is synth, the CP73 is weighted. At 28 pounds for the CP73, if the action was decent that'd be a huge plus as well for the CPs.

 

WDYT?

 

Randy

 

 

Better Build Quailty on CPs

[1203]

 

 

In addition, there are two sampled versions, apparently, of the CP-1/4/5 SCM Rhodes named Rd73 and Rd78. My ear tells me Rd73 and Rd78 are possibly re-samples of a CP-1 as you can hear some of the SCM elements in the lowest velocities that don't sound like an actual Rhodes but more like a re-sampling. I certainly could be wrong. Regardless, they sound very familiar to the CP-1/4/5.

 

The new CP88/CP73 only list three: Rd78, Rd75, Rd73. As these are purportedly sampled, I think they might be close to those sampled versions on the Montage/MODX.

 

Busch.

 

I am quite sure, that the Rhodes and Wurly samples in the new CP's are new samples. Why?

 

1. Recently i played the Yamaha P-515 at the local shop (Germany) and the Rhodes there sounded very very good to me - definitely better than the Rhodes in the MODX which i had a few days at home for a test. So i believe, they took this Rhodes sample, which is definitely new, also in the CP's. It sounded like the "RD 78" in the Youtube Videos i have seen.

 

2. This "RD78" has sonically nothing to do with the "Rd 78 MkII" in the CP1/5/4/40, which sounds like a "shallow" voiced Rhodes which much overtones. The new one is more "low deep" voiced, to my ears.

 

3. Blake Angelos from Yamaha as well as Woody Piano Shack speak in their CP-videos from new EP samples - Blake explicitly, Woody says something like "these are the best EP's" that he has played in any Yamaha ever. And a few months ago he has reviewed the MODX with one main focus on the EP's.

 

I get more and more rid of the Rhodes in my Nords (Grand and Wurly i find still great), and while i was a little bit disappointed from the EP's in the MODX, i'm really looking forward to the CP's... and once more: The P-515 Rhodes is a step in the right direction and i can't believe Yamaha was going back from there. Definitely new anyway are the samples in the first update of the CP's: "Sparkle Top" Rhodes and "Wide" Wurly.