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#2967618 - 01/07/19 09:56 PM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Mark Zeger]
area51recording Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 2017
Loc: Newburgh,IN
Originally Posted By: Mark Zeger
Coffee?


Yes, with a sizable shot of Jameson's please....

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KC Island
#2967626 - 01/07/19 11:35 PM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: MathOfInsects]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 7258
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
Originally Posted By: Mark Zeger

I’m tossing the bullshit flag here. Show your proof.
Let me Svengle this for you:
Sub list. https://www.jazz.org/y28z77j/?toggle=2
Selection process. https://www.jazz.org/y28z77j/?toggle=2



Never challenge an academic to a google-off. This took literally a millisecond to find.

Article about the lawsuit that required blind auditions because of Marsalis's exclusionary policies

Article about protests against Marsalis's lack of blind auditions resulting in all-male orchestra

2015 article about JLCO changing its hiring policy. You'll notice the picture of the ensemble in this one...

Should I go on? I literally teach this exact topic and can post as many links as you'd like...


I do not believe you know what you are talking about. Mainly your false narrative of injecting gender into the conversation.
Jazz is principally an Afro American invention, along with some non afro african americans to add what they had to add. Afro American males were the main players, with a minority of females and some ahead of the curve non African Americans, to create what wwe have now.
In amy case, jass turns out to be a human endeavor... there are great female and white players. This japanese player has amazing ability, that I am still adjusting to. And not unlike Hiromi:



Edited by I-missRichardTee (01/08/19 11:22 AM)
_________________________
"I play the notes as they are written, but it is God who makes the music."
" Music's only purpose should be for the glory of God and the recreation of the human spirit." Johann Sebastian Bach

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#2967642 - 01/08/19 03:40 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Mark Zeger Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 5389
Loc: Rochester, NY
Some KC members know my Wynton story. Maybe I’ll share it over coffee someday.

Who wants coffee?

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#2967650 - 01/08/19 05:11 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Mark Zeger]
Al Quinn Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/13/14
Posts: 1246
Loc: Center Moriches, NY
Originally Posted By: Mark Zeger
Back on the Hiromi topic. She has incredible techinical ability but her playing leaves me completely cold. At Newport, I listened to a solo set. Left after 10 minutes. I listened to her trio. Maybe 15 minutes.

I had a similar experience seeing her at Newport. I left in the middle of her set and found another performance on another stage — I think it was Lou Donaldson with Pat Bianchi on B3 — that quickly warmed up my chilly soul.
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#2967661 - 01/08/19 06:02 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Al Quinn]
drawback Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 3721
Loc: Victoria BC, Canada
Although this is probably narrow minded, I tend to judge whether I can listen to anyone or anything by my own personal “soul / no-soul / fake-soul” criterion. Takes maybe 5 seconds. When I can’t get past the obvious mathematics of a player, I move on real fast.
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#2967665 - 01/08/19 06:22 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: davedoerfler]
SteveCoscia Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 643
Loc: Philadelphia, PA USA
Hiromi is wonderful. Tasty, melodic and great timing. Sheer Joy. Her left hand is a lethal weapon.

Great to see and hear Simon Phillips. First time I saw him play was in 1978, with Jack Bruce at My Father's Place in Roslyn, NY. Simon was barely a teenager and it was clear he was different and going places.


Edited by SteveCoscia (01/08/19 08:31 AM)
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#2967672 - 01/08/19 06:39 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: SteveCoscia]
p19978 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 155
Loc: KY
Meh.

Lots of notes but I can't connect with her.

Reminds me of listening to Vai or Malmsteen on guitar; uber talented but not for me.

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#2967697 - 01/08/19 08:52 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: p19978]
bfields Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/12/16
Posts: 114
Maybe I'm just slow to understand new stuff, but there's so much great music that wouldn't be in my life if I'd given up on it after 5 seconds.

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#2967714 - 01/08/19 09:34 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: bfields]
Joe Muscara Offline
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Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 20079
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I just watched this yesterday. Jump to about 28 or so minutes in when Nicolas Payton talks about "BAM" vs. jazz and all that, then Wynton talks next about race and music at about 30 minutes. If he's a racist I'm a frakkin' slaveowner.

Jazz Congress Day 1, Session 1: Jazz, Swing, Race and Culture
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#2967716 - 01/08/19 09:36 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: bfields]
Jazz+ Offline
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Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 6026
I don't dig her live trio shows, too much LOUD fusion for my taste.
I like being able to fast forward and volume control her solos on YouTube.
I enjoy her solo piano live shows.

Solo piano (Canon)


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#2967730 - 01/08/19 11:12 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Jazz+]
area51recording Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 2017
Loc: Newburgh,IN
These Hiromi threads always follow the same arc. Jazz+ posts a vid of her tearing the keys off the piano, and inevitably someone will post a reply about how, while the skill is incredible, it's just not their mug of Ovaltine, and then it's on....for myself, the Malmsteen comparison is dead on. While I'm in AWE of what she can do on a piano it just don't resonate with me on an emotional level at all....

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#2967733 - 01/08/19 11:19 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Jazz+]
MathOfInsects Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 3710
Loc: California
To be fair, my comment focused more on sexism than racism (which if you scroll back, you'll see I waffled about in my comment). Though there are comments to be found by the esteemed WM establishing a racial component as well.

However, all it takes is a single glance at the LCJO before and after blind auditions were instituted, to draw a pretty stark conclusion about who was deemed worthy when membership was determined at least partially by eye and familiarity, vs. whose playing (alone) might have qualified them to join.

Having said that, I have been a member here long enough to know that race and gender conversations never go over well here, and I should have known better.

So forgive me for the side-trip into our "no" zone and let's go back to appreciating the utterly bad-ass Hiromi, who I wish would stop calling me and asking me to marry her.
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#2967736 - 01/08/19 11:23 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Mark Zeger]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 7258
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Zeger
Some KC members know my Wynton story. Maybe I’ll share it over coffee someday.

Who wants coffee?


I am not busy enough and curious to hear story over PM
or here.
_________________________
"I play the notes as they are written, but it is God who makes the music."
" Music's only purpose should be for the glory of God and the recreation of the human spirit." Johann Sebastian Bach

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#2967752 - 01/08/19 12:55 PM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Jazz+ Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 6026
Just think, instead of wasting your time hearing Hiromi, you could be reading and thinking about these topics:


What new toppings do you want to see on your hotdog?
what new toppings do you want to see on your pizza?
What new furniture would you like to see from IKEA?
What new condiments would you like to see at Whattaburger?
I came for Rick, I stayed for Chris...
OT Just before the gig I shave.
OT Linebacker in the office.
My iPhone weather app !!
Richard Carpenter - Chops
Has anyone used GarageBand?
ABACAB Discussion
Tho shall not play “Jump” A KC commandment

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#2967756 - 01/08/19 01:12 PM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Jazz+]
area51recording Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 2017
Loc: Newburgh,IN
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Just think, instead of wasting your time hearing Hiromi, you could be reading and thinking about these topics:


What new toppings do you want to see on your hotdog?
what new toppings do you want to see on your pizza?
What new furniture would you like to see from IKEA?
What new condiments would you like to see at Whattaburger?
I came for Rick, I stayed for Chris...
OT Just before the gig I shave.
OT Linebacker in the office.
My iPhone weather app !!
Richard Carpenter - Chops
Has anyone used GarageBand?
ABACAB Discussion
Tho shall not play “Jump” A KC commandment


Hey man....leave my IKEA thread outta this laugh


Edited by area51recording (01/08/19 01:13 PM)

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#2967759 - 01/08/19 01:25 PM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: area51recording]
samuelblupowitz Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/17
Posts: 154
Loc: Ithaca, NY
Joy indeed! I love the way Hiromi's trio straddles traditional jazz piano trio and modern fusion. I enjoyed this performance's lean towards the former, but you still get Anthony Jackson walking against a pedalpoint on his six-string electric, and Simon Phillips tastefully, quietly filling on what looks like the same drum set he played with the Who in the 80s. Piano playing's not bad either! laugh
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#2967764 - 01/08/19 01:48 PM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: samuelblupowitz]
EscapeRocks Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 4997
Loc: Texas
Well since everyone else has chimed in, here's my take:

She is phenomenally talented. she can play circles around me.
I just don't care for it. It's not my thing. It has nothing to do with her being a woman or of Asian Heritage.

I also say the same thing about Corea and Emerson.

All three of the above make me look like a toddler with a Fisher Price My First Piano smile

This almost harkens back a thread a week or so ago:

I can appreciate talent and not like the tunes. These are not mutually exclusive things.

Not once in my entire life have I dismissed an artist based on gender or race/heritage... if I like it, I like it. if I don't, I don't. Whether or not I think an artist is talented or not is a separate conversation.

Even some of my very favorite, talented artists have put out material that I'd never listen to again.
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Gig Rig: Casio PX-5S | Arturia Keylab 61 | Alesis Vortex Wireless 2 | Mainstage |


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#2967870 - 01/09/19 03:01 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Joe Muscara]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 7258
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
I just watched this yesterday. Jump to about 28 or so minutes in when Nicolas Payton talks about "BAM" vs. jazz and all that, then Wynton talks next about race and music at about 30 minutes. If he's a racist I'm a frakkin' slaveowner.

Jazz Congress Day 1, Session 1: Jazz, Swing, Race and Culture


Joe, Man oh Man was I wrong about Wynton... I agree with you... But am I a total idiot, or has Wynton massively matured since he was a younger man?
Any how, I am very very pleased and enlightened to hear Wynton's ideas about the music... I liked the all inclusivity ... I never put 2 and 2 together with the Irish Washer woman and 6/8 jazz.
Re Italian American contribution, that is super obvious ... I heard an anecdote about Wes Montgomery and Coltrane in a car ( I assume on the road, but not sure ) and they were happily singing O Solo Mio! Wish I could have been a fly on the windshield to hear that. Eddie Lang and Joe Venuti were exponents of this music and were Sicilians.

I did not listen to most of the forum talk with Nickolas Payton and Marsalis, but I want to mention the African American Church was another invaluable part of this music.
Yes, there is no doubt in my mind, the lions share of the contribution The american negro made with what we call jazz or jass. But there is also no doubt that there are some bad boys who are not African American and can play unbelievably well.. Ronnie Cuber comes to mind. Also giants like Stan Getz, Bill Evans etc.
But I diverged from Wynton's focus, where he beautifully describes this wonderful music in an at once African American music AND a European American music creation.

I was 100% Wrong about Wynton, and apologize to him and all concerned...

Hiromi and Anthony Jackson are virtuoso level players.. but I am still waiting for this music to grab me emotionally. But I am also glad she and Anthony with Simon the drummer, are doing their wonderfully creative music... very glad indeed.
_________________________
"I play the notes as they are written, but it is God who makes the music."
" Music's only purpose should be for the glory of God and the recreation of the human spirit." Johann Sebastian Bach

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#2967937 - 01/09/19 09:32 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: MathOfInsects]
JoJoB3 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/04/13
Posts: 343
Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
To be fair, my comment focused more on sexism than racism (which if you scroll back, you'll see I waffled about in my comment). Though there are comments to be found by the esteemed WM establishing a racial component as well.

However, all it takes is a single glance at the LCJO before and after blind auditions were instituted, to draw a pretty stark conclusion about who was deemed worthy when membership was determined at least partially by eye and familiarity, vs. whose playing (alone) might have qualified them to join.

Having said that, I have been a member here long enough to know that race and gender conversations never go over well here, and I should have known better.

So forgive me for the side-trip into our "no" zone and let's go back to appreciating the utterly bad-ass Hiromi, who I wish would stop calling me and asking me to marry her.


Hi. It's 2019. The majority knows there's male and female talent galore outside of whatever select, bigoted fool examples are left roaming the earth. There's no need for this (other than 'strut and pontification).
Put it away and go outside.

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#2967943 - 01/09/19 09:49 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: JoJoB3]
Jazz+ Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 6026
The main topic for me is she's clever keyboardist. I get technical ideas from what she does. She's a gold mine for that. She has a lot of routines in her method and I have stolen quite a few; I've incorporated about half a dozen devices she uses on this number and others. I've also sourced about 10 Monty Alexander routine devices from his method. This stuff is a gold mine for me as a pianist. I'm not sure why some digress on to other tangents while I'm busy plagiarizing the clever things a pianist does. I will steal from any musician, and rightly so.









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#2967944 - 01/09/19 09:53 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Jazz+]
Outkaster Offline
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Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 6362
Loc: Rochester, NY
I don't care for her feel, that's my take. I am sure she is a nice person and everything. Something seems unnatural about it. I get her appeal believe me. I can't put my finger on it but it seems contrived?
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#2967945 - 01/09/19 09:56 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Outkaster]
Jazz+ Offline
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Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 6026
I know what you mean. Her swing is not great. But I think you were saying you don't like jazz piano in general? I don't think her feel is bad, you get used to it if you let yourself be flexible. I like swing better. That doesn't stop me from admiring her devices. She is a gold mine for stealing from. Just the way she handled rhythm changes in that last video! She went through about a dozen styles on that single tune! That's what interests me, the constant shifting of styles on one tune. Monty does it too!

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#2967948 - 01/09/19 10:00 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Jazz+]
gg22 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/03/14
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
The main topic for me is she's clever keyboardist. I get technical ideas from what she does. She's a gold mine for that. She has a lot of routines in her method and I have stolen quite a few; I've incorporated about half a dozen devices she uses on this number and others. I've also sourced about 10 Monty Alexander routine devices from his method. This stuff is a gold mine for me as a pianist. I'm not sure why some digress on to other tangents while I'm busy plagiarizing the clever things a pianist does. I will steal from any musician, and rightly so.








Still boring.
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#2967949 - 01/09/19 10:02 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: gg22]
Jazz+ Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 6026
Some people don't like Monty Alexander either. Who cares if you don't. But he is a good source for stealing devices. Like Hiromi, Monty changes the style of his left hand and his rhythmic approach almost every 8 bars. It;'s a gold mine, it's a gold mine for devices.

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#2967950 - 01/09/19 10:03 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Jazz+]
Outkaster Offline
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Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 6362
Loc: Rochester, NY
I like Jazz piano but her feel isn't great. I don't like contrived playing and when I see her I'm bored. I have a Latin jazz teacher versed in a lot of styles and can tell you the difference on how Oscar Peterson would play something compared to people like Bill Evans. Believe me I get an education because it's a style I am learning and really didn't grow up with. That said I can tell by watching and hearing a person if they are a better player than me technically.
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#2967964 - 01/09/19 11:23 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Outkaster]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 7258
Loc: S. Ca. USA
The answer is in the make up of different players and listeners.
We do not hear it much anymore, in the proper light anyway, but people are significantly different in their make up.
I have no authoritative book/ author to borrow from.. but in a very simplistic way.. there are people who operate, who function from intellect more than others.
I have been curious about the different natures of humanity, and have found small tidbits here and there that hint to me about these differences, and that and my responses to various players suggests to me, that my weak little theory has something behind it.

So far I only mentioned intellect versus non intellect.. that sucks, but maybe you know what I mean.? It is a binary categorization, only two options.. but I suspect there are more than two, and the various admixtures.
I know some categories you can do you own thinking about:

Astrology has 12 types

the four temperaments : Four temperaments is a proto-psychological theory that suggests that there are four fundamental personality types, sanguine (optimistic, active and social), choleric (short-tempered, fast or irritable), melancholic (analytical,wise and quiet), and phlegmatic (relaxed and peaceful). Most formulations include the possibility of mixtures of the types.

Briggs Myers

And a very old system called the Enneagram which divides personality into 9 types and their respective admixtures.

Then there is the degree of self awareness a person is in contact with.

I recommend a "deep" eastern ( Asia ) flavored book that I far from comprehend, but that opens doorways .. "The Mysticism of Sound and Music" by Khan.

Music involves a resonance between the artist music and the listener. I know the receptivity and sensitivity of a room of listeners to the music, has great effect on the total experience of the artists' performance.
This applies to the Artist in question, Hiromi.
I am pleased she is on the front lines ( on the road ) putting her music out there and with 2 gifted unusual talents at her side, Anthony Jackson and Simon Philips.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (01/09/19 11:25 AM)
_________________________
"I play the notes as they are written, but it is God who makes the music."
" Music's only purpose should be for the glory of God and the recreation of the human spirit." Johann Sebastian Bach

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#2967965 - 01/09/19 11:38 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Outkaster]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 7258
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: Outkaster
I don't care for her feel, that's my take. I am sure she is a nice person and everything. Something seems unnatural about it. I get her appeal believe me. I can't put my finger on it but it seems contrived?


You are a very different sort of person than Hiromi... and when you say she sounds contrived, I am guessing I know what you mean. Let me take a stab in the dark.
You can hear her thoughts as she plays and you believe you can sense these "thoughts" were practised hard and long, far from the bandstand. In other words she is not spontaneous and emotional enough for you.
But problem with this hunch is the SOME PEOPLE can actually weep at her performance!
I just think we need to work on having a tolerant and open mind about those who do not touch us on a deep level.

The deepest idea, I have already said at the K Corner before... some musicians play more from ego than others. The highest music is not from ego. Not from thinking or pre-thinking at home.
Which is a topic for debate.
I read a book long ago, by Andrew White the 3rd, he had transcribed "all" of Bird and Coltrane and could play very well himself, having played with Elvin Jones!
In his short book he claimed Coltrane was not a genius!!
I know what he thinks he means.. I DO hear the connection between what Trane practices voraciously and his performances... not unlike Hiromi. These are two virtuosi.
So we have to be very very open, tolerant and patient in the hope that SOMEDAY we will " get what all the fuss is about" with these type of players.

It took me 50 years to finally get, Art Tatum.
You cannot force it, it comes when it comes, if it comes.

Back to Hiromi and Trane: So far Hiromi has not touched me emotionally , but Trane has made me weep in a deep way. I do know why he is accused of not being a genius,, I sort of hear the practised lines in Coltrane, just as you hear the pre practised lines in Hiromi.. BUT Trane DOES get very deep, and if you are distracted by what you think you hear in Trane,,, his "pre practising", it may block your apprehending his relentless egoless search for truth. Players even on this level do not always nail it, do not always get that incredible flow. So if we go by our "in five seconds, I know" first impression and shut that artist down, we block a chance to hear these people when they do strike the mother lode of inspiration.
Just very occasionally listen to various tracks of an artist ( Hiromi ) over a period of many years... you may someday be pleasantly surprised .
This happened to me with Art Tatum, Pat Metheny, both of whom I thought were too technical. Nope, the problem was I was not receptive.
Louis Armstrong was corny to me for decades, until one day he was not!


Edited by I-missRichardTee (01/09/19 12:45 PM)
_________________________
"I play the notes as they are written, but it is God who makes the music."
" Music's only purpose should be for the glory of God and the recreation of the human spirit." Johann Sebastian Bach

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#2967967 - 01/09/19 11:44 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: JoJoB3]
simajanpa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 266
Loc: Rhode Island
[quote=JoJoB3]What a fantastic drum kit to bring to the piano trio!

It appears to be Simon Phillips, I've not seen him play this style before. But then again, I've haven't looked either.
Only seen him with TOTO.

Paul
_________________________



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#2967968 - 01/09/19 11:45 AM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Sam CA Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/05/18
Posts: 157
Loc: Los Angeles
I don't like everything that Hiromi does but in general I find her very interesting. She breaks the boundaries in creative ways which I find inspiring for my own listening satisfaction. Sometimes it feels she's stretching things too far just for the sake of doing it. It doesn't matter, that's probably part of her personality. I like her both as a composer and performer.


Edited by Sam CA (01/09/19 11:45 AM)
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#2967981 - 01/09/19 12:21 PM Re: Hiromi unleashes her monster chops, again [Re: Sam CA]
Adan Offline
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Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 2698
Loc: San Francisco
I can say honestly that I'm eternally grateful for this forum for exposing me to artists I might otherwise missed. I don't necessarily buy their stuff, but I'm glad I know about them. Hiromi's in that category. Do we need 12 threads a year about her? Well, personally, I would say no, but I also think forums like this work best when people post about whatever they want that's on topic. Jazz+ seems to be someone who spends a fair amount of time plumbing the depths of youtube to find interesting material and I appreciate it whenever he shares something new and interesting.
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