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#2959448 - 11/24/18 07:49 AM Applying Modes Question
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 110
Loc: Ontario
Hi folks:

It has been a while since I've been here, but I have learned so much from this forum and I am very thankful. Through being here, i have learned how to apply the pentatonic scales throughout the neck and also how to move it back three frets to create a happier sounding scale.

I also tried to learn the Aeolian, Dorian, Locrian etc modes, but I think I was chewing off more than i could chew all at once.

So now I am circling back to the modes and learning how to apply them. this is where I need help.

I found a youtube teacher who was very good at teaching the basics of the modes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lr_FlFS14s&list=PL2So5opWVIasylMLGGJKum-pHw9ymuiKD

So now I understand that the modes are implemented by having the "shape" start at the root note to "tonic" that you wish to start at. So for example, if i wanted to play the Dorian mode in A, I would make sure that I placed the first note of the Dorian 'pattern" on the A.

So, for example, i'd start at the 5th fret of the low E string and I'd place my first finger there. I would then place my third finger on the 7th fret on that same string, and my pinky on the 8th fret of that same string.

Then I would put my first finger on the 5th fret of the A string and my third finger on the 7th fret of that same A string.

The next location would be the same formation, starting on the 7th fret of the A string

I have three questions (to start with)

1. To continue with the Dorian scale, is it just a matter of continuing to place that shape further down the neck until you run out of frets? (understanding that when you get to the B string, you have to shift a fret) ?

2. What are the most common scales used in rock music? I heard it is the Dorian and Max.....? (however you spell that). Is that true?

3. What is the relationship between soloing with the pentatonic scale and the modes mentioned above? Can you start with a pentatonic approach and then switch over to a Dorian or Aeolian formation? Is that common?

Thank-you

Charles

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#2959467 - 11/24/18 10:05 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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I think yer looking at these ideas in the wrong way, that is as rules about how to play (as in yer example of how to finger the notes).
Modes are simply various inversions of scales.
They developed over a long time (rather than being a single concept) as European church-based musos (who did have deep concerns abt rules) either developed ideas or accepted them from folk musicians & from other cultures.

There are a lotta books you should look through to find the historic contexts for all this but the most basic thing in actual practice is that the modes generally used are, in essence, versions of the major scale, staring on the notes other than the tonic (aka the 1).

Start w/ knowing what the major scale is & how it relates to the common minor scale.
Don't worry so much abt what's "the right way" to play as getting a mental concept abt how their sound & the effects they create musically.
That, rather than rules, is what will enable you to understand how they're structured & to use them effectively.

More later ...but to answer one Q you asked, the most common mode in rock music is the Mixolydian, which can be found by starting the major scale on the 5th & playing to the next 5th (or by playing the white keys of the piano from G to G).
If you examine it, it's just a major scale w/ the 7th shifted down to b7.

As far as shifting between scales or modes, yes you can do that b/c that may be what the music yer playing needs. You can also use notes that are outside a scale or mode, even while staying within that scale.
Know why ?
Because that may be what the music needs !
What music calls for is sounds & that trumps rules.
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#2959492 - 11/24/18 01:00 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi D and thank-you. More and more, i am appreciating the value of listening to what my ears tell me, more than anything else. At the same time, i like to try to understand things like modes, scales etc in order to better guide my starting points.

I'm going to give the Mixolydian a go and report back once I have had a chance to.

Having played the Aelion mode, I find that it gives off a different feel than the pentatonic approach. More and more, i am finding that i mix the pentatonic approach with other approaches, my ears are getting better at predicting what would work and what wouldn't.

My biggest challenge seems to be how to call upon known 'rules' with my own ears.

My focus will now be in applying the various modes, so if there are any tips anyone can share, that would be great. tell me like I'm stupid. I won't be offended.

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#2959497 - 11/24/18 01:40 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Cool, MF ( shocked ) !

Per the Mixolydian mode, if ya consider it, It's just the major scale w/ a b7, hence it ubiquity in blues-based rock---it's a natural fit.
Similarly the Aeolian, which is just the common minor scale.
I could list them all in order but you can find that in many books or even at Wikipedia.
[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music) ].

They all can be considered & experimented with by playing a major scale first on the tonic (Ionian), then the 2 of the scale (Dorian---which might be the 2nd most used in rock since it's just a minor scale with b7).
Go on down the line (major scale starting on the 3rd note, etc) & you have them all...although there are other more esoteric modes, as well, & if you wanted to you could create yer own.

I suggest to pick a few sources, book or online & use those as yer reference base.
It's good to look at more than one b/c sometimes terms an writer uses may be confusing or they may expound an idiosyncratic idea.
When I started studying theory it took me a while to realize that classical terminology used (uses ?) a lotta terms that could be much simpler or even excised from use.
For ex., when I read abt a "minor 7th" I thought of the chord when the writer meant only a b7 melodically or harmonically, not as part of a chord.

Also, while gtr is where we are as musos, a kb is the easiest way to get a fast idea of the diffs between modes b/c they all are variations on the basic major scale & can be compared visually & theoretically by playing the white keys---much easier & more apparent than they look on the gtr.

The downside is thinking that the theoretic understanding is the same as understanding their use.
That use, if based solely on theory, will always be sorta mechanical, which is kinda OK as a student, but will not allow you to develop as freely as working via yer ear.
There can be more uses of modes than conventionally applied.

Here're some ideas you may find helpful:
When studying any musical concept find practical examples of its use in songs & consider how it works in that context.
Pick some tunes & investigate what modes they use.

It can also be helpful to not try to do much at the same time.
Play a buncha tunes that all involve 1 mode in a single session & at another time test-drive another mode.
I think their distinctive qualities will sink in better that way.
Then when you get some of the more usual modes under hand, branch off into the odder ones.

Best of, Buddy !
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#2959566 - 11/25/18 09:07 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
A String Administrator Offline
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A mode is more about the sound, then the scale. in fact, you can use the same scale to hear all of the modes...Here is a simple way to understand/"hear" the modes:

Play the C Major scale on the 8th fret:
---------------------------------5----
--------------------------5-6-8-------
-------------------4-5-7--------------
---------------5-7--------------------
--------5-7-8-------------------------
----8---------------------------------
From here, we can do all of the modes. For example, Start on the fifth fret instead of the 7th and do 5-7-8 on the low E string, then the rest, the same. Suddenly, you have an A minor scale, from the same notes. The Minor scale is also known as the "Aeolian" mode. It's sound happens ever time you start on the 6th note of a scale and play the same notes. So, in C Major scale, starting on an A instead of a C, but playing the same notes, will make it sound like an A minor scale instead of a C major scale.

You can use this to hear all of the modes. Pick any note in the above scale and use it as your root note. If you start on the 2nd note, for example, the "D", you will get the Dorian mode in D. If you start on the 4th note, the "F", you will get the Lydian mode in F.

Here are the different note orders to hear the different modes:
C D E F G A B C - C Ionian Mode (Major)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

...D E F G A B C D - D Dorian Mode
...2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2

......E F G A B C D E - E Phrygian Mode
......3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3

.........F G A B C D E F - F Lydian Mode
.........4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4

............G A B C D E F G - G Mixolydian Mode
............5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5

...............A B C D E F G A - A Aeolian Mode (Minor)
...............6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6

..................B C D E F G A B - B Locrian Mode
..................7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
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#2959567 - 11/25/18 09:13 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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I have a section on modes and the sounds they make (what they are good for) in the theory section. You can find it here:
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads..._Tr#Post1582022
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#2959628 - 11/25/18 06:12 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Thanks to all. It will take me a few days to a week to absorb this. I will post again once I have.

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#2959677 - 11/26/18 07:44 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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A String and D

I continue to read your posts and I have also reviewed the links provided.

i have decided to start with the Mixolydian Mode. The way i best learn is to actually apply it and start soloing to a background track. Can anyone recommend a background track or two, where this mode would work?

I think my first step will be to feel comfortable playing the Mixolydian Mode, but I'll need a few tracks to solo over and need help selecting those.

A String: This is what you wrote after Mixolydian Mode description. " is a great scale for dominant and dominant-7 chords. Great to use after the pentatonic blues scale to add a cool jazzy feel.:

Based on that, does that mean I could use a backing track in Am for example, (like this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Yu9sN7E194


and solo using the pentatonic and then switch to Mixolydian Mode. Would that work?

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#2959697 - 11/26/18 09:29 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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While on record as looking at musical Qs as a bit outside The Rules, I'd be remiss if not pointing out that when using modes yer still just using scales & those still hafta fit the musical context.
If you try to fit a mode w/maj 3rd in over a minor chord, yer gonna hafta do some shifting.

As you already seem cognizant, also, as you play any piece of music yer gonna shift between scale concepts as the chords shift. Little music actually stays in one tonicity throughout.

I suggest that you use a slightly diff approach.
Pick the music you want to practice, play along enough to find the notes involved & consider which modes/scales would be involved.
That way yer investigating what the music naturally calls for.
Use that as yer main approach &, as a separate experiment, try applying particular modes to songs to see how they fit or feel in those contexts...which is what your plan sounds like to me.

Sometimes it will seem to fit perfectly, sometimes it will stretch the musical atmosphere, sometimes it will seem totally Out.
Those reactions you feel will be the determining factor in how applicable the mode/scale is in that context.

Sometimes what works in one section of a song is diff from what works in another section.
For ex., in the track you linked, if you matched Mixolydian directly to the chords, it would fit most conventionally over the 5 chord.
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#2959715 - 11/26/18 10:40 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
Scott Fraser Offline
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I have to say I've never understood relating modes to anything other than the key I'm in. Theoretically, yes, but practically, no. I learned the classical (church) modes as geometric patterns or shapes, which makes it easy to relate any mode to any key. But they're just scales, & any chord can have a scale played over it, & you just determine whether it needs a major or minor third, a major or minor seventh, & a major or minor sixth. And you're not going to play a minor second in most Western music, flat fifths, augmented fourths are colors mostly found in jazz & blues, etc. Theoretical concerns may complicate the process.
And, Music Fusion, be aware that any pentatonic scale is just a subset of a mode. They're not exclusive or different at all. Modes just add 2 more notes to a pentatonic. Play what sounds right over chords, i.e. no dissonant notes, & figure out what scale it is later.
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#2959718 - 11/26/18 10:46 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Scott Fraser]
d Offline
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Good points, SF, esp abt the pentatonic being just a subset of larger scales that can vary as one select which notes to add.
&, if not too obvious, there are 2 pentatonic scale: the happy major one & the bluesy one.
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#2959767 - 11/26/18 03:00 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
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"I suggest that you use a slightly diff approach.
Pick the music you want to practice, play along enough to find the notes involved & consider which modes/scales would be involved.
That way yer investigating what the music naturally calls for."

Thanks again folks. I understand the value of experimenting and simply playing modes and or scales over music to see which fits, but that would mean that i'd have to learn all the modes before taking that approach.

In the spirit of walk before you run, is there a piece of music that i can practice the Mixolydian to? I know my learning style and what works best for me is to carve out one piece at a time. Maybe I can get into experimentation with my ears. once I've learned a few modes, but I'd like to try starting with one. Any suggestions on music to play over?


Edited by Music Fusion (11/26/18 03:08 PM)

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#2959773 - 11/26/18 03:12 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Quote:
but that would mean that i'd have to learn all the modes before taking that approach

No, not really.
You will always only be working on one thing at a time, no matter how you try to approach this.
As I mentioned before, my suggestions are that you work on narrow areas & try to hear how they function.
Could it be that yer tryna get quick answers to Qs that don't work the way you hope ?
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#2959931 - 11/27/18 06:35 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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Found this for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiV1zXaQG_w

You can use the A minor scale's notes on the fifth fret (So you don't have to memorize a new pattern) and this will result in you playing the G Mixolydian scale. (They are also the same notes as the C Major which the A minor is the relative minor of. This way, when you play the 5th mode of the C Major, you are also playing the G Mixolydian. I know it all sounds confusing, but I want you to see how these same notes can produce different sounds depending on the chords they are played over. That is what modes really are, IMO.)
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#2959951 - 11/27/18 08:00 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: A String
...This way, when you play the 5th mode of the C Major, you are also playing the G Mixolydian. I know it all sounds confusing, but I want you to see how these same notes can produce different sounds depending on the chords they are played over.


Good point abt modes technically in 1 key being applied to another.
That also reiterates that the modes mostly used are all just a series of shifts of the major scale.
In this case it could be said that using the Mixolydian mode 1 full step lower than the intended key is the equivalent to using the Aolian mode (the next higher mode in the series) in A.

But all that's a bit theoretical.
I again urge anyone studying this or any aspect of music to just start playing along some plan of study in order to begin grasping how all this functions, both aurally & conceptually.

As long as the approach is "tell me what to play over some chord" rather than "give me an idea how this works & how I can study it" (which has been done here, in several slightly diff ways) any student's just following directions, not learning how to hear what's happening.
Does that seem too persnickety ? grin
The best way to learn is a bit at a time & by active practice.
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#2960025 - 11/27/18 12:26 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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@D. I used to get my students to learn the A minor scale on the 5th fret and show how you could start on the C on the fifth string to play the C Major scale; therefore teaching the idea behind the "Relative minor". Then, I would have them chime each note and play over it, using the same scale, only ending in the relative root note. So, hit a D and then play the same scale ending with the D. The sound would be a Dorian mode for D. Then Hit open E and play the same notes only ending on the E after each phrase. Then they were playing the Phrygian Mode of E. Etc. etc. It's a great way to hear how the modes sound, even though the notes are the same.
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#2960051 - 11/27/18 02:14 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
d Offline
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& I think that's a good idea.
There've been several approaches offered here that are, in many ways, similar.
I have no criticism of any of the ideas offered so far
(other than, even in the case of my suggestions there's been no mention of singing the notes while playing as a way of deepening the internalization of pitch).

I am kinda getting the impression, however, that sometimes ppl want things defined for them w/out actually working to develop their understanding independently or recognizing that the "right" way to play music is somewhat mutable.
I could be wrong in the present instance, but I'm confused when someone keeps asking what seem to me variations on the same question.
idk
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#2960055 - 11/27/18 02:24 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi folks:

I don't know if anything is being implied here, but last time I came here for advice on the pentatonic stuff, i took all the advice very seriously, worked very hard to learn it and I do not think i wasted anyone's time. So, I am not looking for quick answers to anything and having played by ear all of my life, and being a songwriter by trade, I realize the value of learning rather than memorizing.

So let me reset a bit.

On this page, toward the bottom, there is a diagram of the Mixolydian mode.

https://www.guitarworld.com/lessons/jazz-guitar-corner-learn-all-seven-major-modes-easy-way

I was planning,. as a starting point, to practice the fingering of this mode, and I thought it would be good to find a piece of music that it would fit over, in order for me to practise it.From there, you will notice on this same page, it shows you how to play the other modes.

In any event, i am sure I can find a backing track by looking on youtube and doing a search. i just thought someone may have thought of one to suggest.

Part of the issue is that i am not used to thinking of playing from a theoretical view at all. So, when folks refer to scales, major, minor etc., it is difficult for me to follow.

You might say I have an odd way of learning.

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#2960062 - 11/27/18 02:49 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Cool, MF !
Not implying yer wasting my or anyone's time, just that we may not be communicating eye-to-eye, if you see what I mean... grin

I just try to encourage ppl to develop their own identity as musos, ergo, take a gander outside the usual methods...for ex., one might finger any set of notes on any set of strings in various ways depending on where exactly they were going...dig ?
I trust you do !

Remember: what sounds the way you want it to is what's right for the music.
wave
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#2960098 - 11/27/18 04:48 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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@ Music Fusion, The teacher in the OP is one that you had last time we heard from you. Glad to see you are sticking with it and he is very good at explaining things and providing charts. The answer to your question regarding switching in and out of Pentatonic is Yes! Line up you major Ionian and minor Aeolian with the pentatonic scales. As Scott pointed out they are one and the same with just a couple of notes added. As Astring and D points out, it's all about the major scale being shifted around. Each of the modes follows the same pattern of dots as the major scale and are a part of the major scale and/or relative minor scale. The Dorian portion is favored by a lot of rock players. Line it up on your tonal center, chart it out and hopefully you'll then do the same with any mode. The pattern does not change all the way to infinity up or down the fretboard...pick a key...pick a mode...and go.


Here is another approach by David Wallimann. Call him up on YouTube by name and you will learn all kinds of tricks and theory and quick learning methods. In this clip you can start at 5:45. You will see how you can use the Dorian mode, the octave pattern concept (in the OP training link you posted), switching in and out of the Pentatonic, etc. It is a journey that you must take to understand all the good comments you are getting from the forum members as you can tell they have taken the same ride before. Check this out at 5:45 and learn to use the Dorian over a 4chord pattern moving around or staying still:



Good luck and have fun with it! cool



Edited by Larryz (11/27/18 09:01 PM)
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#2960133 - 11/27/18 08:52 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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No offence taken

I will circle back to this thread soon. I always like to dive into what has been suggested here, when i have solid time to do so. I find that trying to read and then do this on the fly, doesn't work for me.

So, out of respect for the time you've taken to explain stuff to me, I am going to have a go at what you have all written as soon as I can find some solid time. Which i am hoping is within the next several days.

Thank-you I will be back once I have had a chance to think about what is said here.

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#2960252 - 11/28/18 10:53 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I find that trying to read and then do this on the fly, doesn't work for me.





Well, attention is the primary tool to exercise !
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#2960277 - 11/28/18 01:00 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
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So, I think I've figured out why I am getting so confused.

Here's where I have been:

I have learned how to play the pentatonic scale throughout the entire neck, and i believe I am proficient at it now . Or, at least, I can do so fairly easily now.

So now, i have turned my mind back to modes, and I thought I started understanding it based on what i read here and based on that Youtube tutor that I have been following.

But every time I try to go to that next step, I see references to major scales, minor scales etc, and how modes are variation to those scales.

But it occurs to me that the reason why I do not understand some of what is being said, is that i have totally skipped over learning basic scales. So while I can drum up a half decent solo now, using the pentatonic scale throughout the neck, the excitement of all that, resulted in my skipping the basics.

So, I guess my question is- before diving any further into the modes, should I take a step back and learn the basic scales? I am guessing the answer is yes.

Stupid question- so how do I approach that? What are the basic scales to learn? I know many of you have done a lot of great work posting info to this site in the past, so I am not asking anyone to reinvent the wheel.

if my assumption is correct that I need to step back and learn the basic scales, is there is link to these basics that someone has already created? I suspect there is, but I have seen so many good posts and links from this site, that I am losing track of where I seen what.

Advice please?

Thank-you







Edited by Music Fusion (11/28/18 01:03 PM)

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#2960295 - 11/28/18 02:33 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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There are many scales which are basically a pentatonic with extra notes or notes missing. However, a mode is basically a pentatonic scale played over a chord, other than the root. This creates a myriad of cool, different sounds.

For sure, learn the Major and Minor scales. Depending on your style, I would also learn the Blues scale (Which again is just a variation on the pentatonic). The Major is THE scale. The minor is actually just a mode of it. As for the other scales, I'd save those for when you understand modes. No need to convolute things.
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#2960298 - 11/28/18 02:35 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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@d, your approach was perfectly fine. Just, when someone is having trouble with a concept, the teacher in me looks for other ways to explain. There are many ways to understand modes.
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#2960311 - 11/28/18 03:28 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: A String
There are many ways to understand modes.



I guess I was stressing a learning method concept more than the desired A to the Q.
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#2960315 - 11/28/18 03:50 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
So, I think I've figured out why I am getting so confused.

Here's where I have been:

I have learned how to play the pentatonic scale throughout the entire neck, and i believe I am proficient at it now . Or, at least, I can do so fairly easily now.

So now, i have turned my mind back to modes, and I thought I started understanding it based on what i read here and based on that Youtube tutor that I have been following.

But every time I try to go to that next step, I see references to major scales, minor scales etc, and how modes are variation to those scales.

But it occurs to me that the reason why I do not understand some of what is being said, is that i have totally skipped over learning basic scales. So while I can drum up a half decent solo now, using the pentatonic scale throughout the neck, the excitement of all that, resulted in my skipping the basics.

So, I guess my question is- before diving any further into the modes, should I take a step back and learn the basic scales? I am guessing the answer is yes.

Stupid question- so how do I approach that? What are the basic scales to learn? I know many of you have done a lot of great work posting info to this site in the past, so I am not asking anyone to reinvent the wheel.

if my assumption is correct that I need to step back and learn the basic scales, is there is link to these basics that someone has already created? I suspect there is, but I have seen so many good posts and links from this site, that I am losing track of where I seen what.

Advice please?

Thank-you!



In re the highlighted text in the quote, I don't think you need to that.
First, that looks to me like another diversion from directly pursuing what yer intent is.
Moreover, & to paraphrase John Lennon, who wasn't the most schooled musician but was extremely skilled at expressing himself musically
(& who, FWIW, unlike McCartney, was never recorded singing off pitch),
"No matter where you start, it's where you start."

Anywhat, I think you should stick with this idea:
The 2 pentatonic scales can be considered the basis of the other scales.
Yer already proficient at that.
Think of the main modes & everything else as just the pentatonic scales w/a couple other notes added (as has been mentioned above).

I think that will actually help you w/understanding the structures of modes/scales b/c instead of tryna reconceptualize a buncha new note sets, you'd simply be taking the basic pentatonic forms (which you already have a grasp of) & test-driving the added notes.

I think that would both save you a few steps & emphasize more clearly the diffs those added notes make.

In any case, don't worry so much abt how you learn but realize that if yer learning something, yer learning & sooner or later yer concepts will deepen & that ("Oh, Man !") even then you'll never know everything abt music's possibilities. grin
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#2960372 - 11/28/18 09:16 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi folks

Everything you all said makes sense. So, it is not a matter of your teaching skills or styles. Its just a matter of it clicking, and sooner or later it will. I'm a very determined learner.

SomethingnD last said, sounds like it can work for me. If I think of modes as just variations on the pentatonic scales, it will take a lot of the mystery out for me. So, if that light, let me start by asking the following:

1,\. You mentioned the two pentatonic scales. I know the minor scale, and i know moving those shapes 3 frets back, produces a happier sounding solo- is that what you mean by the two pentatonic scales (the minor pentatonic, and then the movement of those shapes 3 frets back)?

2. If i understand this whole thing correctly, modes are accomplished by starting a particular"shape" on a particular root note. So starting that same shape on a different root notes, produces the same mode, but starting at a different root.

But, at the same time, rather than thinking of it that way- you can also think of a mode as a variation on the pentatonic scale.

Correct?

So.......I need to find a logical place to start. Maybe with the aeolian? Maybe find a picture of that mode and determine how it relates to the pentatonic? And hopefully that will resonate and stick?

Yes?

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#2960426 - 11/29/18 08:23 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Okay, working with what you have...
The reason that dropping the scale down three frets give you a "Happier sound" is because you are playing a mode; the Ionian Mode or Major scale.

Let's specify to simplify. So, playing the Minor scale in A, from the 5th fret. You get a minor sound. However, you have noticed that, when you drop the same pattern down three frets, you get a "happier sound". Let's look at why and how this can be used to understand modes:

When you move a scale around, you are simply changing it's key. So, dropping the A minor scale, down one fret, will give you the Ab Minor scale (G# minor). Dropping it down two frets will give you the G minor scale and dropping it three frets will give you the Gb (F#) minor scale. You can see how the note you land on becomes the new key.

Now, If you strum an F# minor chord and play that pattern on the 2nd fret, you will hear that it is clearly the F# minor scale. However, as you noticed, it also seems to have a happy sound if you play it over an A Major. This is the basis of modes. Different sounds/moods from the same notes, depending on what you are playing it over.

Now, let's look at what's going on:

When you play those notes on the third fret, over an A chord, you are playing the A Major scale. The notes A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A. So that's why it has a "Happy sound" here but why does it also has a minor sound if you play it over the F# minor chord? Well, have a look at the modes I listed. You can see that the 6th note in the A Major scale is the F#. This means, when you are playing over an F#, you get the Aeolian Mode, also known as the Minor scale. Boom. The sounds have changed, using the same notes. What if we played that same pattern on the 2nd fret over an E? Well, the E is the 5th note in the A Major scale so the "Sound" we would get is more jazzy. It is known as the Mixolydian Mode.

You can see that, moving the same pattern up and down the neck and varying the root note you are using in the scale can suddenly provide endless sounds.
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#2960455 - 11/29/18 10:10 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
1. You mentioned the two pentatonic scales. I know the minor scale, and i know moving those shapes 3 frets back, produces a happier sounding solo- is that what you mean by the two pentatonic scales (the minor pentatonic, and then the movement of those shapes 3 frets back)?

As AString's already answered,that's yes.
& that's b/c all this stuff is just shifting the view one takes of any mode's tonic note.

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion

2. If i understand this whole thing correctly, modes are accomplished by starting a particular"shape" on a particular root note. So starting that same shape on a different root notes, produces the same mode, but starting at a different root.

But, at the same time, rather than thinking of it that way- you can also think of a mode as a variation on the pentatonic scale.

Correct?

Mostly correct. I think you have the concept in general.
But the starting point gives the mode a diff name, so while they're all kinda like a DNA helix that repeats, each sequence segment gets its own ID.
{BTW, in identifying notes there are 3 ways:
--- the sound they have (which is,I think,the most important to internalize);
--- their note name (A...B...C...etc);
--- their position in a scale set designated by number [1 = tonic, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8 (octave)]
That last is also maybe a better way to realize their overall relationships than by letter names...& is handy for when you get to analyses of multi-octave lines & some pianist is talking abt 10ths (an octave + 3rd) & other extended intervals. grin

See, the 2 versions of the pentatonic (or the whole system of modes) are just variations in how some of the notes relate to each other aurally.
The way a b3 differs from a M3 or how a b7 or M 7 give the music being played diff emotive or expressive feels.
That same effect comes when any notes in the scale are varied.
Octave & 5th, octave &b5 or octave & #5---all give a diff feel.
Same w/varying the 6th (which will come into play later when you start considering the variant forms of minor scales, a subject made overly complicated in trad theory & one which you needn't get hung up abt right now).

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion

So.......I need to find a logical place to start. Maybe with the aeolian? Maybe find a picture of that mode and determine how it relates to the pentatonic? And hopefully that will resonate and stick?

Yes?

That's basically what I meant, however I think that's still tryna look at this from the destination rather than the starting point.

I'd start by taking some tunes/chord progs/pieces of music that you like & are already familiar with
& examining the notes involved to see/hear how they make themselves distinctive to you.

That will give you a direct idea of the effect these note variations make you or others feel
(which will not always be the same for everyone but will tend to be similar)
& yer familiarity w/them will make it both easier to recognize these effects
as well as make the study more fun than if yer starting w/material that yer not familiar with or may not even like
.

Never make yer studies into chores.
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#2960472 - 11/29/18 11:12 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Craig-- that was very helpful and I am very close to "getting it". I just need to come back to what you wrote a few more times. But it is starting to click. Either that, or my brain needs oiling;-)

Thank-you, I'll report back once I have had a chance to tinker with what you wrote again.


Edited by Music Fusion (11/29/18 11:13 AM)

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#2960473 - 11/29/18 11:24 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Always happy to help out. By all means keep on digging, practicing and asking questions!
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#2960515 - 11/29/18 02:49 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi guys:

Thanks for hanging in with me.

Yesterday night, I spent over an hour listening to a tutorial by Steve Stein. I find that tapping into different sources sometimes helps me think of things differently. The bad part of that, is that it can also cause confusion when people are explaining things in different ways.

What I got from stein's tutorial is that within the C major key, as it is played throughout the neck, we already have all the modes built in. And then he talked about the key of C being made up of

1. C Maj
2. Dm
3. Em
4. Fmaj
5. G Maj
6.Am
7. B dim

He said that the 1st, 4th and 5th are always major and the 2,3 and 6 are always minor. The 7th is a diminished

This made sense to me, and it matches what you folks have been saying.

He then said the 1, 4th and 5th are the core chords of the key, while the 2, 3 and 6 are the ones that can give your solo "colour" if you choose to emphasize any one of those.

so reading the recent posts here, the following question emerged:

I understand how moving the pentatonic scale from fret to fret will change the sound of it, particular to what chords are being played underneath it- and i think i understand how those "sounds" get known as lydian, Aelian etc., but what I am not sure i understand is this:

To achieve the different modes, I thought the fingering changed. But when i read what Craig wrote, it seems that i just need ti move the pentatonic around to achieve the modes.

Is that true? If not, what have i misunderstood?

Thank-you



Edited by Music Fusion (11/29/18 02:51 PM)

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#2960532 - 11/29/18 04:31 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
A String Administrator Offline
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It is one way to use the static pattern to achieve the modes, yes. Moving ANY scale pattern will change it's key. Look at the super simple blues scale:

---------------------5-8----
-----------------5-8--------
-------------5-7------------
---------5-7----------------
-----5-7--------------------
-5-8------------------------

This is the Blues scale in A. You can move this scale up and down the neck and each time you do, you change the root name. So play the same pattern on the 3rd fret and it's the Blues scale in G. Play the same pattern on the 12th fret and it's the blues scale in E.

The thing is, there are only 12 notes. Those 12 notes are repeated all over the neck meaning you can figure out MANY ways to play the same scales. But, in the end, if you play any major scale, starting on a different note - in what ever pattern you are using - you will get a mode; the key it's in depends on the root note you are starting on:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1=Ionian Mode (Major)
2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2=Dorian Mode
3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3=Phrygian Mode
4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4=Lydian Mode
5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5=Mixolydian Mode
6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6=Aeolian Mode
7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7=Locrian Mode

So in C it's C Major, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian etc. etc. BUT, if you play in a different key, you'd get other root notes so, in the key of G Major, you would get these modes:
G Major, A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian and F# Locrian etc. etc.
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#2960549 - 11/29/18 07:22 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi Craig- see my comments below yours:

This is the Blues scale in A. You can move this scale up and down the neck and each time you do, you change the root name. So play the same pattern on the 3rd fret and it's the Blues scale in G. Play the same pattern on the 12th fret and it's the blues scale in E.

I am with you on this. I understand this concept and have been applying it extensively when i solo using the minor or major pentatonic.

The thing is, there are only 12 notes. Those 12 notes are repeated all over the neck meaning you can figure out MANY ways to play the same scales. But, in the end, if you play any major scale, starting on a different note - in what ever pattern you are using - you will get a mode; the key it's in depends on the root note you are starting on:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1=Ionian Mode (Major)
2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2=Dorian Mode
3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3=Phrygian Mode
4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4=Lydian Mode
5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5=Mixolydian Mode
6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6=Aeolian Mode
7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7=Locrian Mode

So in C it's C Major, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian etc. etc. BUT, if you play in a different key, you'd get other root notes so, in the key of G Major, you would get these modes:
G Major, A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian and F# Locrian etc. etc.

I think I get this, but not sure. Let me test this with you.

So I am playing the Am pentatonic scale starting at the Low E string, 5th fret. I know that when I do that and play an Am chord, it sounds very bluesy.


Now, if I stay with that same shape (the minor pentatonic shape), and I move my baby finger- which would ordinarily be on the 8th fret of the Low E string, and instead put my baby finger on the Low E string, 5th fret and (in a way, working backwards) continue the rest of the shape as follows:

Low E string, 1st finger, 2nd
A string, 1st finger, 2nd fret
A string, 3rd finger, 4th fret
D string, 1st finger, 2nd fret
D string, 3rd finger, 4th fret
G string, 1st finger, 2nd fret
G string, 3rd finger, 4th fret
B string, 1st finger, 2nd fret
B string, 3rd finger, 5th fret
E string, 1st finger, 2nd fret
E string, 3rd finger, 5th fret


What is it that I would be doing? Have I formed a different mode by shifting the shape so that although I know if I continued the shape back to the first note of its shape, I'd be on the F# root note, I rather am starting the shape with my pinky on the A note (low e string, 5th fret)?

And what affect might this have if i played over a F# Minor chord ( I am assuming bluesy feel), and if I played this over an Am chord (not sure what happens then).

Thank-you

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#2960649 - 11/30/18 10:45 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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No. When you drop the A minor scale, down to the second fret, you are playing the F# minor scale.

A mode is simply the same notes, played over different chords/root notes. I'll tell you what...give me a few to get back to my PC and I will record a little video, showing you what I mean so you can better "hear" it.
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#2960652 - 11/30/18 10:55 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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My response here is before reading the entries between the quoted questions below & the exchange(s) that followed.

Craig's an experienced teacher; I'm a guy who sometimes shows ppl what I know.
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I find that tapping into different sources sometimes helps me think of things differently. The bad part of that, is that it can also cause confusion when people are explaining things in different ways.

My experience is based on what I encountered when moving beyond simply playing music to digging into the theory & the history of Western music theory---which did not develop in a single stroke & in fact has changed quite a bit over it's history.
Reading trad books on theory I would encounter terms & phrases such as "...the minor 7th...".
I'd read that as a reference to a minor 7th chord.
It took me quite a while to realize that for older classical musos that meant the interval of a b7.

My point being that terms can often be confusing, esp, as you've noted, MF, diff sources may seem similar but in actuality not be so.
That's why I always try to deliver small bits of info & suggest that that's the best way to study.
"Too much, too soon" & all that !
It's also why I think dealing w/th notes is more clear when using the interval's position [ 1 (tonic), 2, 3, etc ] is more clear than note names.
The note name refers to a particular position, etc, whereas the interval number is systematic & clear no matter what position or specific musical example.
To me it's the simplest AND the most clear way to designate theory principles.
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion

What I got from stein's tutorial is that within the C major key, as it is played throughout the neck, we already have all the modes built in. And then he talked about the key of C being made up of

1. C Maj
2. Dm
3. Em
4. Fmaj
5. G Maj
6.Am
7. B dim

He said that the 1st, 4th and 5th are always major and the 2,3 and 6 are always minor. The 7th is a diminished

This made sense to me, and it matches what you folks have been saying.

He then said the 1, 4th and 5th are the core chords of the key, while the 2, 3 and 6 are the ones that can give your solo "colour" if you choose to emphasize any one of those.

so reading the recent posts here, the following question emerged:

I understand how moving the pentatonic scale from fret to fret will change the sound of it, particular to what chords are being played underneath it- and i think i understand how those "sounds" get known as lydian, Aelian etc., but what I am not sure i understand is this:

To achieve the different modes, I thought the fingering changed. But when i read what Craig wrote, it seems that i just need ti move the pentatonic around to achieve the modes.

Is that true? If not, what have i misunderstood?

Thank-you


The description of the structure of the modes & the major scale, etc is correct & so is the list of the chords as you move along the major scale.
However, as per the idea that terms may carry diff meanings for diff ppl, I find there to be perhaps confusion abt a phrase such as "move the scale".
To me that's shifting the scale to diff position but staying in the same place within the scale.
I think at times it may be used to actually mean moving to a diff position within the scale.

In a perhaps related way I really discount specific fingerings except as relates to specific musical phrases in particular positions---& even then fingerings may change depending on what's happening in a specific musical context & what's comfortable for a player &/or what they're doing with the music, etc.
You might jump to a diff string or position or not & all that, to me, is more abt what's happening in each specific situation.
Dig ?

Plus, so far the discussion here's mostly been abt the single note aspects of things,.
The chordal/harmonic aspects may complicate things til you get a more definite idea of the musical tone of diff modes
.
idk

That said, let me maybe muddy the waters myself by suggesting this:
In the same way I suggested keeping to the pentatonic skeleton & adding notes as needed, I wonder if it would be helpful to begin the study of the chordal/harmonic aspects of mode/scale interactions by reducing the scale(s) to the intervals involved in the most common chords.

For example, if we run through this series of chords (from above), which are the chords most common to the key of C major ...
1. C Maj
2. Dm
3. Em
4. Fmaj
5. G Maj
6.Am
7. B dim


We might also (& I think more systematically) think of them this way.
1. C Maj = I maj
2. Dm = II min
[more traditionally this is usually written as ii m---same thing really, just lower case for the minor chords}
3. Em = III m ( or iii m)
4. Fmaj = IV
5. G Maj = V
6.Am = VI m (vi m)
7. B dim = VII dim (vii)

[& if you haven't seen it, there's a symbol for the dim chord that looks like math exponent, a tiny zero up by the top of whichever designation you use, letter name or number name]

Further, we might reduce the identification of the chords to this, based on their intervallic structure, instead of using the note names...
[Note that these intervals are based on strictly keeping to the unaltered key while in actual use some song might have an Em 9, for instance b/c songs shift keys all the time while they're actually driving around the streets in yer town grin ]

1. C Maj = 1 3 5 [ with potential additions of M7 9 ]
2. Dm = 1 b3 5 [ w/additions of b7 9 ]
3. Em = 1 b3 5 [ b7 b9 ]
4. Fmaj = 1 3 5 [ M7 9 ]
5. G Maj = 1 3 5 [ b7 9 ]
6. Am = 1 b3 5 [ b7 9 ]
7. B dim = 1 b3 b5 [ b7 ]

[BTW, that's usually called a 1/2 dim chord b/c the 7th interval breaks the pattern of diminished intervals that build the chord in its usual modern use / for a "full dim" chord, that 7th gets flatted again so its a bb7 in that case]... rolleyes

All that may fall into the category of TMI at this point but, as I wondered, does the numerical designation of the intervals help make the patterns more clear than translating the note names between chords ?
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#2960664 - 11/30/18 11:15 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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Okay, I forgot to mention that the Lydian would be in F.
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#2960680 - 11/30/18 12:41 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
Larryz Offline
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| |X| |o|x| | 1st string
| |x|o| |x| |
|o|x| |x| | |
| |x| |X| | |
| |x| |x|o| |
| |X| |o|x| | 6th string


start on the 5th fret Key of A minor using the 1st and 6th strings as the tonal center
x = Pentatonic minor scale
X = Root tone A
o = added Aeolian scale notes

play chords Am and Dm and keep repeating, then play either scale shifting between the 5 note Pentatonic Minor and the 7 note Aeolian minor scales.

Hope this is helpful as a starting point...


Edited by Larryz (11/30/18 01:09 PM)
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#2960685 - 11/30/18 01:07 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Larryz]
Larryz Offline
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| |X| |o|x| | 1st string
| |x|o| |x| |
|o|x| |x| | |
| |x| |X| | |
| |x| |x|o| |
| |X| |o|x| | 6th string


start on the 2nd fret Key of F# minor using the 1st and 6th strings as the tonal center
x = Pentatonic minor scale
X = Root tone F#
o = added Aeolian scale notes

play chords F#m and Bm and keep repeating, then play either scale shifting between the 5 note Pentatonic Minor and the 7 note Aeolian minor scales.

Hope this is helpful as a starting point...
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#2960687 - 11/30/18 01:08 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: A String


Okay, I forgot to mention that the Lydian would be in F.

Yo, CB, what are those bird sounds that crop up intermittently there ? grin
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#2960689 - 11/30/18 01:12 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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Lol! Yeah, we have a few conures. Cute, but can be noisy!
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#2960694 - 11/30/18 01:25 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi Craig and D.

Thanks to both of you. All of that helped, and the video was very helpful.

So now I think I get it. Let's just focus on modes for a minute because I think I am more clear on moving around the pentatonic.

So, in modes, we are playing the same (I think Craig referred to them as notes in his video), but the the movement on those notes to commence on a different fret, results in a different mode, which has a different musical character (sad, happy, etc). Correct?

Is is accurate to also say, the movement of those note positions, relative to each other, to commence on a different fret, results in a different mode, which has a different musical character (sad, happy, etc). The reason I reworded it, is that when i think of the notes moving.. the movement from one fret to another changes the note name right? But, as d seemed to suggest, as as Craig illustrated in the video, we are more accurately talking about moving the root note and the relative positions of the other notes that follow it- right? Maybe now I'm getting too technical ;-)

So now that i think i get it, I have to step back and think about how I can apply it in my playing. Because presently, my soloing is all about moving pentatonic ally across the neck, with perhaps a little adventure now and then.

But this modal thing is a slightly different way of planning an approach to a solo, right?

So, now I have to think about how to apply this stuff.

I think d may have suggested in the past that i simply pick some music that i like and experiment....so maybe that's the next step.

So if I stayed with a major scale, and found a piece of music that in in the key of the root note of my major scale, would it not be just a matter of playing over top of that music by moving the same relative position of the notes to different frets- resulting in moving to a different mode that would have a different sound? And if so, despite moving the shape to start on different fret, would I still remain in key?

I guess the best way to know is to try it, but I'd also like to understand it conceptually as well.

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#2960696 - 11/30/18 01:35 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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So, you are almost there. Basically, playing the same notes, lets say in the key of C from the example, will yield different sounds depending on what chord you play those notes over. No need to move up or down the neck, just use the same notes. Now, if you want to change the key, then you CAN move that pattern up and down the neck. So, for example, if you are playing the C Major scale but starting and ending on a D, you get the D dorian. If you slide the whole thing up the neck (like in the example) so you are playing the D Major scale, you can also use THOSE notes to play over a E and get the E Dorian mode.
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#2960698 - 11/30/18 01:59 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
So, in modes, we are playing the same (I think Craig referred to them as notes in his video), but the the movement on those notes to commence on a different fret, results in a different mode, which has a different musical character (sad, happy, etc). Correct?

The mood or feel of the music varies by the specific notes involved, yes, & since the common modern modes are all just a continuous sequence/series of notes, as you shift yer focal point, it can be viewed as a diff mode.

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
But this modal thing is a slightly different way of planning an approach to a solo, right?

So, now I have to think about how to apply this stuff.

I think d may have suggested in the past that i simply pick some music that i like and experiment....so maybe that's the next step.

So if I stayed with a major scale, and found a piece of music that in in the key of the root note of my major scale, would it not be just a matter of playing over top of that music by moving the same relative position of the notes to different frets- resulting in moving to a different mode that would have a different sound? And if so, despite moving the shape to start on different fret, would I still remain in key?

I guess the best way to know is to try it, but I'd also like to understand it conceptually as well.


Chek the highlighted parts of what I quoted just above.
Yer conceptual understanding will become more clear as you actually try things out.
If you try to get a full understanding before you start, that'll take longer.

As far as planning a solo (or exercise or etude or composition) there are 2 ways to approach music: intellectually or expressively.
They needn't be in contradiction nor do you always need to take the same approach but I tend to think the greater value (as well as more "natural" results) come from an expressive approach.
Overly planned music can seem stilted.

That's why I suggested that yer best progress might be finding music that you already like & have a feel for & exploring how modes, etc, fit into that music rather than working through exercises that themselves may require you to work in new territory.
You'd still be learning but you'd already know some of the landmarks.

Also keep this in mind---the names of scales/modes/whatever or concepts behind what you play are really just identifiers for talking to other musos, if you get the idea of the note patterns & can use them the way you want, it doesn't matter if you can name them.
Music has always preceded the intellectual diagramming of it.
The one time in music that it didn't (Serial or Atonal classical music of the early 20th C) the results were mostly unsatisfactory.
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#2960706 - 11/30/18 03:29 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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Originally Posted By: d
Also keep this in mind---the names of scales/modes/whatever or concepts behind what you play are really just identifiers for talking to other musicians


This is a good point to keep in mind. What we are doing here is trying to put names on how the notes make you feel, based on the chords you are playing them over. These names are just ways to explain and teach to other musicians but, in the end, it's all about the sounds.
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#2960733 - 11/30/18 06:55 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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Hi guys...I will reserve commenting on the technical stuff as I have not had time to study it, and I always like to give things the necessary thought before asking a question. So leave it with me and I will will report back and, as always, thank-you!!!

I did want to comment on a non technical aspect.

I could not agree more that intellectualizing music is, in a way, counter to free expression and can stifle creativity. I've written about 200 songs in different genres and I can never remember a time when I approached it by thinking about how it might look on sheet music. In fact, quite the opposite. the last song I wrote, was done entirely in my head as I was hanging Christmas lights .

Having said that, I have always respected those who understand music theoretically and while I think representing a creative work by lines and notes on pages of sheet music is a bit revolting (to me at least), I have alway respected the ability to do that.

I know people (such as myself) who play almost entirely by ear, and i also know people who can't play much unless it is scripted for them on sheet music. If i had to choose one or the other, i'd choose to remain as I am as i believe that music first comes from the soul.

Having said all that, i can't ignore the fact that there is a science of sorts behind understanding how music works, and that is why i am throwing myself at it. Maybe that is why I have a difficult time grasping certain scientific aspects of music- because I have spent my entire life letting it pour out of me, agnostic to the rules or "things" that guide it.

I am glad i am learning the other side of music, but it is not natural for me. But I love a challenge.





Edited by Music Fusion (11/30/18 06:58 PM)

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#2960803 - 12/01/18 08:51 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Abolutely no contradiction between the emotive & the analytic approach & both are important.
They're just 2 views of the same thing.


You have , as we all do, stuff to play with (I live that phrase better than "work on") to take some steps forward
but if ya wanna, let's follow some of what we've talked abt here as processes (& I fully defer to AString---along w/some others here--- as an instructor).

A PROPOSAL
What does everyone think abt this idea? idk
MF, name some of yer fave music.
While we as commenters examine those tunes ...
[& everyone, I hope, hold back from offering analysis til later cop after MF does some experiments of his own]

What do you think are the scales/modes that can be used to play those tunes, MF ?
In some cases there may be more than one option.
Do you find, in considering them, some work better than others ?
In cases where more than a single approach might work, what do you think the diff approaches create as effects?

The idea's not to find The Right Answer as much as to test drive the possibilitease grin & see/hear how they work & what you like abt the diff effects that result.
Cool ? idk


Edited by d (12/01/18 08:58 AM)
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#2960805 - 12/01/18 09:35 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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While I agree that Playing modes over music is a great way to learn them and, in this case is where we want to get to, I think it's important for him to have an understanding of what a mode is first. Far too many times I've seen students that know all the terms and how to apply them, but have no understanding of what any of it means. Understanding modes and, consequently, scales, is a fundamental foundation in understanding how music works. The fact that the same notes can sound totally different when played over different chords is how scales came to be in the first place.

And, D. In NO WAY is this going against what you are saying. I agree 100% with everything you've said here. I just want to make sure he has a basic foundation before we build the house on it.
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#2960828 - 12/01/18 12:17 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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Okay...so i developed this before reading the most recent posts, but maybe it is in a similar direction.

I recorded a very brief chord progression that has served as part of a song I once wrote. It's a simple C F G progression and could be heard here

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ogimz5U_9kUft6RnB0cDBumZhsLymA-q/view?usp=sharing

So I looped this and used it as my backing track.

At the same time, i was nervous about proceeding without first learning at least the major scale. So, I learned the first three shapes of the C major scale and I am starting them on the 8th fret, Low E string.

Not surprisingly, all three shapes work over top of this progression. They all sound in Key and I know it is because the C major scale is made up of C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am and Bdim

So, it is only fitting that the three positions of the C major scale sound good over this chord progression because it is made up of the 1st (root), 4th and 5th. (trust me- a week ago, i would not be able to talk in these terms- so i am learning ;-).

So now......to apply the Dorian mode in the above chord progression, i do what? Do I move my third finger down so that it is now on the C root note and play the rest of the same pattern from there?



Edited by Music Fusion (12/01/18 12:18 PM)

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#2960836 - 12/01/18 01:01 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Dorian is the second mode in a Major scale. So, you need to play which ever Major scale has a C for the second note. In this case it's A# Major. So, if you play the A# major scale only start and finish on the C, you will be playing the C Dorian mode. Now..to be fair, I'm not sure I would do that over the progression you have.
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#2960842 - 12/01/18 01:27 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
d Offline
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In regard to the most recent remarks here, AString & I've known each other to whatever degree both here & at http://www.thestringnetwork.com (his own cool music & gear discussion site) for a good while so we needn't reassure each other over our mutual affiliation, but as happens, we may have diff opinions. cheers

I've the impression that MF does now have a general, if not detailed, idea of the basis of modes & would best learn more by starting to explore them in practice.
If one waits til there's a memory bank w/full recollection of the details of all the names, etc. rather than a handy study guide, that's maybe a long time.
As I said before I think getting smaller bits of info ingrained is easier (my fave word grin ).

I simply think it's easier to get an understanding of the musical effects in the context of music he's already familiar with than generic chord sequences, esp those lacking a song or tune.

If that doesn't resonate w/you guys, that's OK but I do think it's worth trying.
------------------
Now I'm off to chk out MF's link to his track ! w00t
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#2960870 - 12/01/18 06:09 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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For sure, D. There are as many ways to learn as there are to teach. Could very well be your method will work more efficiently than mine. Cheers!
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#2960871 - 12/01/18 06:29 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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Folks---they are both working...and i appreciate all the contributions here. Let me think about the latest things said here and i'll report back

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#2960902 - 12/02/18 07:15 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Craig wrote:

Dorian is the second mode in a Major scale. So, you need to play which ever Major scale has a C for the second note. In this case it's A# Major. So, if you play the A# major scale only start and finish on the C, you will be playing the C Dorian mode. Now..to be fair, I'm not sure I would do that over the progression you have.

So, does that mean that Dorian mode can only be explored when playing in the major scale. And here's a real stupid question. I am learning there C major scale throughout the neck. I am on position 4, having learned positions 1,2 and 3. Does that mean that i can move that scale around.

So, for example, if I started that scale on the low E string, 5th note, would that mean I was in the A major scale, and if so, if I started that scale on the B note, would I be in B Dorian? I hope the answer is yes, because that would mean it is starting to click lol


Edited by Music Fusion (12/02/18 07:16 AM)

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#2960904 - 12/02/18 07:30 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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If you move the A Major scale shape up a few frets to the B, it's the B Major scale. If you move it to a G, it's the G Major scale. ANY scale pattern can be slid up and down the neck to change the key but maintain the scale name.

Where you are getting lost is how modes fit into this. A mode is simple the scale, played over a different key than the root note suggests. So, play the A Major scale on the 5th fret and number each note. The notes you are playing will be "A, B, C#, D, E, F#, and G#." If, using the same pattern and not moving up or down the neck, you start on the second note, the B, you will suddenly be hearing the B Dorian Mode. So playing the notes B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A, B. without moving anywhere. If you need to play the Dorian mode in the key of C, you could move that whole thing up one fret.


Edited by A String (12/02/18 08:05 AM)
Edit Reason: Re-worded for clarity
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#2960908 - 12/02/18 07:42 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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Hi Craig

I don't think I said this right. I know that if I started the entire scale of the B, I'd be in B. But what I mean is if I started the second note of the scale on the B, would I be in Dorian, albeit in the A major scale? am I saying the same thing as your reply is? If we are, which I think we are, I've hit a BINGO moment.


Edited by Music Fusion (12/02/18 08:04 AM)

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#2960910 - 12/02/18 07:47 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Indeed. The only thing left is to know WHICH mode you are playing. So, the A Major scale, played from B to B would give you the Dorian mode in the key of B.
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#2960912 - 12/02/18 08:06 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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Very cool . Now, i just need time to reset my brain to make it absorb this. FINALLY.

Thanks so much to all of you. I took everything everyone said to heart and although they present different approaches, they all have had an influence in my thinking and learning.

I'll report back once I have had a chance to try this stuff out.

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#2960913 - 12/02/18 08:09 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Glad to hear! Nothing quite like that illusive "Ah Ha!" moment! By the way, I notice you are in Ontario, if you are close enough to Burlington and looking for lessons, I can highly recommend the teachers at Long and McQuade's, here. Very skilled teachers.
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#2960928 - 12/02/18 10:20 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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Hey Craig:

I used to go to L & M in Burlington all the time. I now go to the one in Hamilton as it is closer. Thanks for mentioning that.

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#2960940 - 12/02/18 11:44 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Hey! Very cool! I used to teach at Lakeshore Music and then, when they moved, Long and Mcquade. Small World.
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#2960947 - 12/02/18 12:35 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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Just for additional clarity. So, I am playing the A major scale starting on the 5th string of the low E. If I stay to that scale and pattern, and don't move my hand anywhere, but if I start on the B note and not play that first A note, am I not in Dorian mode in the key of A? I think you said I was in Dorian mode in the key of B. Is that what you meant to say?

I remember when it was called Lakeshore music and I recall going there.It was at a different location that the current Burlington L & M wasn't it?


Edited by Music Fusion (12/02/18 12:45 PM)

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#2961012 - 12/03/18 06:02 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Generally speaking, when you start a scale on a note (The root note) that is the key the scale is in. So if the second note is a B, it's the Dorian mode in B. If the second note is an f, it's the Dorian mode in F, etc. etc.

Yes, Lakeshore Music was on New Street for many years. I taught there back then and moved with them to the new location on Mainway, when they went. I taught at the new location for a year. Shortly after that, they were bought out by Long and Mcquade.
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#2961207 - 12/04/18 08:36 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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Yes, I remember those days. I still buy my stuff from L & M and I am also an author in their gear guide magazines. They have great policies in terms of returns and exchanges etc. I always feel safe buying from them.

Here's where I am at. Thanks to your folks, i finally understand how to place modes. But now I have to put what i learned into practiser. I am almost at that point but not quite.

First, I want to finish learning all the positions of the major scale. I have memorized and practiced up to position 4, and as soon as I memorize and practise the remaining positions, i will loop back and practise modes, the major scale and the pentatonic. Although I think i understand all these things individually now, I have not put my mind to how they intersect, overlap etc. I could to do that up until now because it is impossible to do that unless you understand each of those components individually. So the game plan is:

1. Learn the rest of the major scale positions and practise them.
2. Do some excersizes where I am playing the different modes over pieces of music I am familiar with (as suggested here)
3. Start thinking about how the pentatonic, the major scale and the modes relate.
4. Venture into the minor scale- is there one- is is that the same as the minor pentatonic?

The above steps may take time cause I take these learning opportunities very seriously. I will report back along the way.

Thanks again!!!!



Edited by Music Fusion (12/04/18 08:37 AM)

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#2961236 - 12/04/18 10:14 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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The minor scale is indeed a thing. From the Major and minor, you can also branch out by adding/removing notes, to make even more scales (ie. Blues scale, Harmonic Minor etc.etc.). I have a list of the common ones and their patterns on the theory thread. Scroll down to Scales (I think it's the third post down and starts with the blues scale): http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads...Tr#Post#1582024
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#2961237 - 12/04/18 10:16 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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Just to explain, you can see we've taken a scale and done stuff to it. lol. So, for the blues scale, you use this (Instead of first note, second note, third note, etc.): 1,b3,4,b5,5,b7 (The b meaning flattened.)
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#2961241 - 12/04/18 10:27 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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Thank-you. I am going to make a mental note to go back to what you wrote, once I have practised the other stuff a bit more.

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#2961261 - 12/04/18 12:28 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
...I want to finish learning all the positions of the major scale. I have memorized and practiced up to position 4, and as soon as I memorize and practise the remaining positions, i will loop back and practise modes


A final thought, MF.
Realize that, while you might practice particular fingerings in order to learn basic principles, when yer actually playing the way you position the notes of lines should ultimately fit into the best, most efficient fingerings for the context.

At some point, you'll see that strict adherence to the fingerings you learn to work across the fretboard might be better adapted to working up & down along the fretboard & jumping from position to position as you mix all these scales, modes & ideas you use in moving past exercises.
Best of !
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#2961272 - 12/04/18 01:15 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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For sure. I mean...patterns help you know where the notes are, but you kinda need all of them to move freely. As an example, here are the locations of the notes, along the neck, for an a minor scale:
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#2961277 - 12/04/18 01:44 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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I knw you see my point, CB, like & eventually so will MF (if (s)he doesn't already but do you have some handy maps for playing along the length of the neck ?
Or diagonally , string to string ?

My whole point here is to encourage outside the box (pun intended) thinking.
It can be necessary to get a grip (another gtr pun) on standard approaches when learning but players should always remember that there are diff---& sometimes even new !---ways to do things.
cheers

FWIW, I'm still wondering abt what MF likes & maybe some specific examples... snax
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#2961536 - 12/06/18 09:24 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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Don't worry. I completely get it. Let me give you two examples:

Prior to learning all this stuff, when i learned a solo, it was completely by ear (which remains my preference). When learning by ear, I focussed a lot on neck efficiency and found that I could normally play 90% of the entire solo while remaining in the same basic position. I've seen Youtube videos where people teach other people, and they end up moving their hands all over the place unnecessarily. I try to make my movements as efficient as possible by looking for the notes i need to play within a confined area. I venture out of that area when i need to (ie- sometimes, the solo calls for a very high note that forces you to go to another part of the fret board). But, for the most part, being efficient is important to me and saves from, a lot of unnecessary movement, which only makes things more difficult.

Secondly, when i write music, it is never with theory in mind. It's all about finding my sound on the fretboard, freely and without any regard to rules.

But please know, that my now focussing on rules, scales etc. is because I wasn't to round out my knowledge. What i am now learning is making me a much stronger player. But it does not take the place out of my normal attack on writing original music.

Everything I am learning here is all good and I am fitting it in as appropriate and not as a replacement for efficient playing habits.

I have a question...Which i will post soon

In terms of diagonally, this is something I need to circle back to and further develop. I know it is very beneficial to be able to see the shapes connecting diagonally and horizontally as well as vertical. Especially when determining your next landing points, and it is especially useful when free forming it- ie: wandering creatively around the neck. seeing the connections shouldn't act as rigid landing points, but they should serve as flags that you may elect to go to if the feel calls for it


Edited by Music Fusion (12/06/18 10:02 AM)

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#2961542 - 12/06/18 09:59 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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I have been learning how to play the Major scale by using this chart:

http://www.fretjam.com/major-scale-positions.html

I have learned all the positions, and have been practicing them by playing the entire scale across the whole neck to a loop i created with the progression F# B and C#. It actually sounds good playing that scale over top.

But I do not understand why, on the diagram I am using it:

1) shows a separate diagram to the right of each of the positions. So for example, in the first position, it shows a diagram with the numbers 7 1 and 2 across the high e string and then to the right, a separate diagram with the same shape, but showing 1 2 and 4 across the high e string. What is the purpose of that second diagram and what do the numbers mean?

2. Then you will notice that off of each set of diagrams, there is a line that shoots out and points to a place on the guitar neck, which is shown vertically on the right hand side of the page. I don't understand the purpose of those lines. What are they trying to tell me?

So, ironically, I can play the whole scale in every position across the neck, but I am getting caught up on what those things mean.

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#2961545 - 12/06/18 10:23 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Hey guys, as an aside, below is a link to a solo that I wrote and put to a backing track i found online. I entitled this piece The Chase.

I find that when writing solos, I b=do better if I imagine a scene, or a theme.

I called this The Chase, as I was imagining a group of teens stealing a car and being chased by the police. Through the solo, you will hear my guitar mocking the cops by playing a "na na na na na na" mini hook. As well, I tried to emulate the dissonant sounds of a police siren. You might hear that in the solo.

I basically relied on the minor pentatonic throughout most of it. None of this would have been possible if it had not been for what i leaned here.

Have a listen

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17T6g4GFkz6zlal8ehL7uQ69t0B5j7Ltj/view?usp=sharing

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#2961553 - 12/06/18 11:13 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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So, the numbers on the fret board are to tell you which note in the scale, you are playing (ie. first note, second note, third note, etc. etc.).

Great job on the solo!
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#2961558 - 12/06/18 11:44 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: A String
Great job on the solo!

I heartily endorse the above opinion from my esteemed colleague The entire track, really...best version of "Further On Down The Road" I heard all day !
rawk
One Q---is there a sustained kboard bed going on under the other insts or is that just my ears ringing ?! laugh

Thanks for hipping me to that site, MusFu !
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#2961581 - 12/06/18 01:48 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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Thank-You.

I don't know what is underneath the backing track.I found it on youtube and the only thing I did to it, was I reinforced the horns at the very end, as I found that they were a bit buried in the original track. So i just recorded some horns at the very end and added that.

The track was done in one pass for 75% of it. there was 25% that I punched in afterwards.

Thank-you for listening and commenting.

Thanks Craig about the note numbers explanation.

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#2961603 - 12/06/18 04:45 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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ok...I think I'm ready to learn the minor scale. A few questions:

Is it a moveable scale, with different positions, just like this one?
http://www.fretjam.com/major-scale-positions.html

How many positions does it have?

I will see if i can find a diagram as like the one above./

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#2961705 - 12/07/18 08:42 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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All scales are moveable.
Any group of notes is moveable.
What defines a scale from just a group of notes is that a scale is a group of notes that spans a full octave & has no significant gaps between notes.

A further defining factor is scales/modes have attached to them a particular "mood" or other quality that derives from the effect the particular notes convey...but that quality can also be embodied by just a few notes.
It doesn't require a full scale.

As far as "how many positions, etc", that kinda depends on how you define position.
Some might do so by starting points that are the tonic (the "1" of the scale) or by other main notes like the 3 or 5.
Some, like me, might consider any note to be a valid positional mark...but I'm abt as liberal an interpreter of musical rules as you'll find.
It might be worth reminding that when one emphasizes certain notes in playing (as sometimes happens when playing in diff positions), it could be considered a diff scale/mode.

Ain't life wonderful(ly confusing) !
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#2961709 - 12/07/18 09:05 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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There are no magic beans. Modes can be a method of mental organization. Sometimes it is easier to think in terms of accidentals. A common structure in a lot of my solos is the switching between Aeolian and Dorian. Easy example is my piano ride in Moon Dance. It may be simpler to think of throwing accidentals on the 6. Or .... Just flatting the 7 of a major instead of calling it Mixolydian. Whatever works. The reality is we learn all this so we can internalize it 'forget' when we use it.
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#2961737 - 12/07/18 11:15 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: CEB]
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@musicFusion, I would start by learning a single pattern for the scale you want. That way it can be moved up and down to change the key it's in and you can solo with it right away. When yo uare comfortable with the patterns, "in a box", then you can start learning where other notes are that you can grab to move it up and down the neck.

The Minor scale pattern (There are two main shapes I use) are going to give you all of your Major, minor and modes. So...it's good to learn them.

Here is the Minor scale pattern for Am on the 5th:

----------------------------------5----------
---------------------------5-6-8-------------
--------------------4-5-7--------------------
---------------5-7---------------------------
--------5-7-8--------------------------------
-5-7-8---------------------------------------

Learn this. It is also the C Major scale.

Now...move every single one of those notes, up two frets and you get the B minor scale (or the D Major). Move it up so you are starting on the 12th fret and you are playing the E minor scale (G major). Just knowing this one pattern in a box, allows you to play the major and minor scale in any key.

As i said, there IS a second pattern I use almost as much and I also tend to connect the two patterns but...focus on this one first.
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#2961738 - 12/07/18 11:19 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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As you can see, the root note is the first note in this scale (The 5th fret on the low E, in this case). What ever note that is, when you move the scale, will be the key your minor scale is in.

As for the key of the Major scale...(once you have down the minor, we can get into that. It has to do with modes)...Basically, the root note will be the note on the 8th fret here. So, what ever note that is when you move it, becomes the new major key.
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#2961739 - 12/07/18 11:20 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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If it helps, think about how moving a barre chord changes the key of the chord.
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#2961768 - 12/07/18 04:22 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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#2961770 - 12/07/18 04:32 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi folks.

The first position of the minor seems pretty straight forward and I had no problem playing or remembering it. So, if I am playing the minor scale patter in F#m, the new major key would be A?

By the way, I skipped a very important step in my learning. I was supposed to try applying what i learned about modes- which I haven't done. So, I will likely shelve the minor scale for now, and go back to trying out sowed mode stuff to see if I can put into practice, what I learned.

Will report back.

Thanks all

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#2961859 - 12/08/18 07:51 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
So, if I am playing the minor scale patter in F#m, the new major key would be A?


Yes. It would also be any of the modes that have the root notes in that scale. So, because it's the Major scale in A, it is also the Dorian mode for B. Etc. etc.
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#2961884 - 12/08/18 11:11 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Okay...so I am back to focussing on applying the modes, and I think I may need a little hand holding on this.

So I have created the following chord progression loop:

A C#m D E

So, how do I apply the Dorian mode over top of this? I thought I knew but now I am second guessing myself.

If I play the A major scale ,

A B
C# D E
F# G# A
B B# D
E F#
G# A B

Would be just a matter of keeping my hand in the exact same position and instead of starting on the root A note, start on the B (E string, fret 7) and end of the B (High E, 7th fret)?

Thank-you

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#2961999 - 12/09/18 08:19 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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I think I should have continued on the modes thing before trying to learn the minor scale. i actually understood the modes and had an aha moment, but now I'm not as sure.

Here's what once again has me confused. I know that a mode involves starting a "scale" ie; the major scale, from a note other than the root note. So for example, if you start from the second note in the scale, you are in Dorian.

What I am again getting confused, is if I did that, how would it change the colour or characteristic of the sound?Wou;dn't I just be starting from a different place but rendering the same sound characteristics as if I played the entire scale.

I sense that i am once again missing something.

Damn..i should have stuck to the modes thing when I was getting it.

Sorry for taking a step back.


Edited by Music Fusion (12/09/18 08:19 AM)

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#2962014 - 12/09/18 12:03 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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The surprising thing about modes is the colour does change. Watch the video I posted again.
Oh...and in your example, playing the 2nd note in the A Major scale will give you a B Dorian sound when played over a B chord.
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#2962038 - 12/09/18 04:26 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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Thanks Craig. I have watched and read this thread and I have decided to post a video so that I can validate my assumptions- if they are in fact correct.

In this video, I think I am playing the major scale over top of a chord progression consisting of A C#m D E,


in the first pass, you will see that i am playing the major scale, starting from the Low E String, 5th fret (A).

The second pass, I am playing from the second note in the scale. Does that mean I am playing in Dorian B (even though I am in the key of A)?

The third pass, I am starting from the third note in the scale. Does that mean that i am now playing in C# Phrygian even though I am in A?

I have a feeling I am doing this either completely right, or completely wrong and sometimes showing what I am doing is the best way.

Here is the video. I thought it would be easier to demonstrate what I am doing right or wrong.

Here is the video. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bdCKo4B-c-BSaUMgPNNvghcGfLPUO1xl/view?usp=sharing

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#2962039 - 12/09/18 04:28 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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BTW. ... thanks to all for your patience. I assure you I'm trying.

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#2962135 - 12/10/18 08:19 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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You are super close. So, let's focus on the A Major scale. You are correct in saying that, if you start playing the A Major scale on the second note, you are now playing the B Dorian. However, where you are getting confused is in the chord you are playing it over. The sound change comes when you play the same notes over a different chord. So, if you play those notes over an A chord, it sounds like a major scale. If you play it over a B chord, it will suddenly sound like the Dorian mode. If you play the same notes over a C#, it will have a Phygian sound. The reason I say to start on that note is so you have the correct root note and an idea of how to play riff using the same notes.
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#2962136 - 12/10/18 08:20 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
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My advice is to hit open A and play the notes. Then, Hit a B note and play them again, trying to start and stop each riff on a B instead of an A.
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#2962156 - 12/10/18 10:56 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Ok Craig,...now it is making sense. The reason i was not detecting any change in the character what i was playing, is that I should have playing those notes over a different set of chords.

Leave this with me and I will try what you suggested a little later and report back.

Just to be clear:

Play the same notes I played in the video, but use a backing track that starts with a B chord...right? and If I start from the 5th fret on the low E, I was be in Aeolian. If I start at the 7th fret on the low E, I would be in dorian- while playing a B chord as backing...correct?

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#2962158 - 12/10/18 11:03 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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I just tried it. i changed the key of the backing track so that it starts in B. So now it is
B D#m E F#

i played the same notes that i did in the video, but I started from the 7th fret (low E)

So that puts me in B Dorian correct?

I did notice a big change in the characteristic of the sound, so i guess that's a good thing. I'm not sure if all of the notes were in key though. So maybe my chord progression was not ideal for this particular mode?

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#2962224 - 12/10/18 03:20 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Yes, sometimes you need a different chord progression. For example, you wouldn't play a Major scale over a minor chord progression. But...that aside, you seem to have gotten it. Now, find some backing tracks that are designed for different modes, figure out where to play it so you are in the right key and practice away. As I said, starting and ending on the root note will help you get the feel of the mode's sound.
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#2962246 - 12/10/18 05:47 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
...By the way, I skipped a very important step in my learning....

EVERY ONE SKIPS IMPORTANT STEPS ....that's what learning is all abt

BTW / FWIW / everything in music is abt what one plays in the context.
The notes that surround what you play are what defines how what that you play is heard.
TO BE CLEAR, it doesn't matter what yer intent is.
It's how it's heard.
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#2962261 - 12/10/18 07:27 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
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I think I need some time to mess around and think.

I'll report back once I have had chance to do that.


Edited by Music Fusion (12/10/18 08:02 PM)

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#2962270 - 12/10/18 08:04 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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This seems like a good place to get jam track s for the various modes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m37y2mlt...PESyjrgs7QUCQUo

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#2962353 - 12/11/18 11:36 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Perfect! Now...just remember that you'll need to move the pattern up and down the neck to get those different starting points for C.
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#2962512 - 12/12/18 10:27 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Thanks. In addition, I went to Long and McQuades yesterday and bought a book by Hal Leonard called Music Theory. It's for a guitar and has a lot of great advanced info, including a whole chapter on modes. What's nice is that it comes with sound files so I can hear what things are supposed to sound like. That, combined with what I have learned here, should help me conquer the applying modes step- which is my next step. I'll report back. It may be a bit of time because I'll be away over Christmas. I may get to this beforehand though. if I don't have a great Christmas/holiday all and thanks for your patience and expertise!!!!

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#2962987 - 12/14/18 04:23 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
A String Administrator Offline
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Have a happy holidays!
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#2963088 - 12/15/18 11:03 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi Craig and all. Happy holidays to you as well and thanks for everything. Turns out that the Hal Leonard book is taking me for a bit of a turn. there are many concepts in the earlier chapters (before i get to the modes chapter which is a lot later in the book), that I feel I have to go through. things like triads, intervals and the like have been unlocking other aspects of the guitar that i didn't realize existed. So, I think I'm going to take some giant steps back and work my way through the entire book.I am understanding about half of what i am reading in the book, but even that half, is making a big difference in my understanding of the guitar neck and how things can be played alternatively to how I would normally play the,

So, I think this side turn will be well worth the delay in getting back to modes. But I'llley you know where I am at along the way.

I should have dome this long ago, but better late than never.


Edited by Music Fusion (12/15/18 11:04 AM)

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#2963195 - 12/16/18 07:20 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Yeah, it's always difficult to know where a person is in their learning. You should certainly have a good solid understanding of scales and chords before moving into modes. But...in the end, you now have a grasp of the concept that will make it WAY easier when you come back to it. Good on you for taking the time to learn the basics before moving forward. You'll be glad you did.
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#2963341 - 12/17/18 10:08 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I should have dome this long ago, but better late than never.

@ things 2 consider which are actually the same thing.
[How's that for some math theory !?! grin ]

THE LONG & WINDING ROAD YA RODE


FUN 'LL TAKE THE LONG WAY 'ROUND
Fun will run and play / fun will play around
Longer way to run, but it's so much fun / Fun will take the longer way around
You can take a shorter cut / Yes it's quicker but
Fun will take the longer way around


Don't be a stranger, b/c we're stranger than you !
wave
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#2964425 - 12/22/18 11:09 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
d Offline
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I hope Mu Fu sees the Jan GP.
There's a multi-page analysis of how the Mixolydian mode's been used in abt 20 diff pop tunes.

There's also a particularly striking idea from Carol Kaye (a young jazz guitarist before she hit the studio scene as a bassist.
The study of chords & arpeggios is more vital than that of scales.
Point being, I think, that while melodic lines are the basis of songs, the harmonic/chordal structure of music is an easier, more direct way to understand contextually useful variations than the use of scales alone.
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#2964747 - 12/24/18 07:35 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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Here's and interesting vid by David Wallimann, a guy I suggested early on in this thread that would be worth looking into on YT after MF gets his modes down (just google on his name on YT). He shows moving in and out of the Pentatonic, using 3 of the 7 note modes in a 4 fret span playing across the neck, using chords and their notes while changing modes with each of the I IV V pattern blues chords, working in a 4 fret area different from your comfort zone to get the brain working.

For me the chords are more important for backing my vocals and playing rhythm guitar. The scales are more important when playing lead guitar and improvising. But, they all work together accenting those chord notes when using scales. For me, the scales provide cool reference points (a road map) and are a cool memory aid. They help me hit the correct intervals without really knowing them, understand chords when taking the time to study the intervals and help me skip the clams, so to speak LOL!



cool



cool
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#2966521 - 01/03/19 09:39 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi folks and thank-you for not forgetting about me. Here is an update as to where I am at:

I found that I was focussing too much on the theory, and treated it like it was a course that i had to pass. Initially, this was a good approach because it forced me to do some learning rather than just fiddling around hoping that i would play the right solo notes.

But then i found that i got so fixated on learning the theory, that i started hitting brick walls in my ability to understand. So, I began jumping around from modes (theory- as discussed on this board), to different ways of finding octaves, to inversions and intervals and everything else I could find that i found intriguing.

Although the method of jumping from one thing to another was bit chaotic, it seems to be working for me because it is mixing theory with practice, with pure experimentation.

The latest thing I did was looped back to modes and found a Youtube jam track in D mixolydian. While I still struggle with the concept of modes, playing an actual mode to a jam track is helping me get more comfortable. For now, mode wise, i want to spend some time on the Mixolydian mode. I know the full shape, starting oon the D (low string, 10th fret), and I am exploring whether there are other positions of the Mixolydian. I assume you can move the current shape around to other star=ting points and it will work, but I wonder if there are multiple shapes associated with mixolydian. if so, i'd like to learn them next.

VCoincidently, and fortunately, I just read the post by d that says "I hope Mu Fu sees the Jan GP." What is the Jan GP? I don't know what that is referring to, but it sounds very timely given where I am. Can you tell me how to get there?

Lastly, I will be away until the 18th of this month and sadly, will not have access to a guitar during that time. So I will continue when i get back. I'll be checking this thread in the next day or so, i leave Friday.

Thanks and may all of you have a fantastic 2019 and beyond!

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#2966523 - 01/03/19 09:41 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Here is the youtube video I was referring to that i am presently jamming to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPIebPDBizs

I need to find out if there are other shapes to the Mixolydian mode, in addition tot he shape that he plays on the D


Edited by Music Fusion (01/03/19 09:41 AM)

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#2966527 - 01/03/19 10:03 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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So, to answer part of my own question, I found these shapes of the Mixolydian mode online:

http://www.discoverguitaronline.com/diagrams/view/13

Now, in the video I linked to above, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPIebPDBizs the shape he is playing starting on the 10th fret of the low E string (D), is not any of the shapes on this chart. So this has me confused.

If I wanted to play the Mixolydian in D, as he does in the video, how do i use this chart to do so?
http://www.discoverguitaronline.com/diagrams/view/13


Edited by Music Fusion (01/03/19 10:07 AM)

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#2966528 - 01/03/19 10:06 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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[this was typed in the same time frame that encompassed the immediately preceding posts from MuFu]

If I understand correctly, yer looking for fingerings ("shapes"). Is that correct ?

In that regard you could play, as I believe has been stated already, any scale/mode starting on any note anywhere along the fretboard.
The relevant factors being...
--to practice exercises for dexterity;
--b/c some position offers comfortable fingering for the music yer gonna play in in a particular situation.

If I'm addressing the Q properly, I can't stress this enough:
the whole point of study & practice is to be prepared for playing what you want as you develop as a player.
The only real rules are what works to achieve the musical effects you want to invoke &, depending on style/genre/artistic goals, those desired results are up to what you intend to achieve in that context...which may be diff from what you intend in another context.

We've heard some of yer playing, so we know yer skilled.
You want to learn more & that's great; no one should be complacent & ongoing development is a goal more should pursue ... but I wonder if, for whatever reason, you might feel unnecessarily intimidated by what you think you don't know.
Remember: the very thing that will make you distinctive as a musician is what you do that's different.


Edited by d (01/03/19 10:10 AM)
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#2966530 - 01/03/19 10:09 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hey d.. I really like that you push me to venture out and experiment. That, along with trying to at least know what the "rules" are, is helping me grow.

I am not sure if I asked my question properly. I am confused as to why the Mixilydian shapes in the chart, do not match up to what he is playing on the video.

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#2966534 - 01/03/19 10:14 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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I see...
I'll have to take some time & look at the clips & charts before I find examples of what yer citing as differences.

Do you see what I'm pointing out, though, abt fingerings are only there as guidelines for study---not as yer only options ?
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#2966559 - 01/03/19 11:46 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
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"Shapes" are really just common locations to find the notes. Part of the issue here is that you need to realize that scales aren't "Shapes" but instead are a bunch of notes. To make it easier to find them/remember them, on the neck, we use patterns. (Mainly because moving every note up one fret raises the key so we can play the same scale in a different key without having to memorize the note on every fret.)
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#2966645 - 01/03/19 09:06 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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So, I know I am still jumping around, but please bear with me. I had a mini breakthrough tonight.

I learned that the Mixolydian scale is the same as the major scale except the 7th is flattened. Thus, I was able to play the mixolydian scale.

Now, I am realizing that as long as I respect the fact that the interval distances remain the same ( in this case, the 7th is always flattened no matter where you play the notes and no matter what octave you start the root on), then you are safe playing it.

I also realized why I had no much trouble with the video that Craig had kindly posted for me. You see Craig started the C major scale on the A string, 3rd fret. I was not aware, until tonight, that one can start a scale on any string.

I thought it always had to start on the low E string. so when Craig was saying that he was paying the C major scale, and then trying to explain modes from there, my mind was stuck on "why isn't he starting on the low E, 8th fret?"

I didn't voice this question because I thought I'd sound stupid, but that was one of the things that was causing a block in my mind.

I am nowhere close to mastering modes, but I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel where the mixolydian mode is concerned.

So, when i asked about "shapes or patterns' of the mixolydian mode, i am thinking that the way I phrased it was awkward. What I should probably be saying is that it does not matter where you start the scale, as long as you respect the interval thing. this will cause the "shapes" to look different de;ep0nding on what root note you are starting on, and what string you choose, but the intervals remain the same.

I am hoping I am correct.

I will try to check in on this thread tomorrow but after that, i will be away until the 20tjh.

Thanks for your patience.

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#2966756 - 01/04/19 11:17 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 7294
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
So, I know I am still jumping around, but please bear with me.

NO ! grin
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I had a mini breakthrough tonight.
I learned that the Mixolydian scale is the same as the major scale except the 7th is flattened. Thus, I was able to play the mixolydian scale.

At risk of seeming pedantic, I recall that being my 1st post to this thread, when you were asking which mode might be most common.
That's not important in itself but I wonder if it indicates that yer too concerned abt acquiring info quickly & may be overloading yer "Mental In-Box" without taking time to investigate the subject by playing though & get a real feel for the way various scales/modes sound in various contexts.
That's not a criticism, MF, just a question.
When I was younger I was quite in a hurry to know things & it takes a while, perhaps, to realize that these things do take some time to become familiar.
We're never done with learning these things b/c as long as we play there will be nuances that we catch or develop.
Watch out for the time when you think you've nothing to learn---that's not a good sign !

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Now, I am realizing that as long as I respect the fact that the interval distances remain the same ( in this case, the 7th is always flattened no matter where you play the notes and no matter what octave you start the root on), then you are safe playing it.

Cool---but remember that as you play parts in context you may add or leave out notes. You aren't restricted to only playing the defining notes of scales/modes.
You can mix in other notes or even mix in diff modes...& you do not need to be aware of or have an intellectual justification for that.
It just need to be how you want things to sound.
Dig ?

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I also realized why I had no much trouble with the video that Craig had kindly posted for me. You see Craig started the C major scale on the A string, 3rd fret. I was not aware, until tonight, that one can start a scale on any string.

I thought it always had to start on the low E string. so when Craig was saying that he was paying the C major scale, and then trying to explain modes from there, my mind was stuck on "why isn't he starting on the low E, 8th fret?"

I didn't voice this question because I thought I'd sound stupid, but that was one of the things that was causing a block in my mind.

I am nowhere close to mastering modes, but I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel where the mixolydian mode is concerned.

So, when i asked about "shapes or patterns' of the mixolydian mode, i am thinking that the way I phrased it was awkward. What I should probably be saying is that it does not matter where you start the scale, as long as you respect the interval thing. this will cause the "shapes" to look different depending on what root note you are starting on, and what string you choose, but the intervals remain the same.

I am hoping I am correct.

I will try to check in on this thread tomorrow but after that, i will be away until the 20tjh.

Thanks for your patience.




Hey, pal, work at yer own pace.
This is a lifelong exercise in development.
Cut yerself a big slice of slack & enjoy playing music.
Don't think ya "hafta-hafta-hafta"---OK ?
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2966889 - 01/04/19 07:37 PM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 110
Loc: Ontario
Hey d. I'm not sure I am overloading. i think it is more the case of some things not clicking until i've heard it 300 different ways from 100 different people ;-) But on a serious note, sometimes things appear apparent to someone who knows a lot about it, but not at all apparent to the one who knows little about it. So, as I gather bits and pieces along the way, things that did not resonate initially, suddenly start to.

I can assure you with confidence that nothing written here has been taken lightly. in fact, each time i go on vacation such as that being the case from tonight until roughly the 20th, i always bring a link to this board and re-read everything from scratch. Sadly, i won't have a guitar with me, but maybe that's a good thing.

I always start by playing every note of the mode or scale up and down. Once I think i've gotten the hang of the construct, then i start experimenting by skipping notes, trying uncommon combination of notes and the like. it makes for interesting soloing.

I won't be posting here for another few weeks as I won't have a chance to try anything new until i return.

Until then, thanks again.

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#2966997 - 01/05/19 11:13 AM Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 7294
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
MuFu, I meant no criticism nor intended faulting of yer ability to understand...only that I wondered if you might be pushing to hard in a race to reach yer goal & not savoring the territory along the way.

I think the enjoyment of music's the main thing.
_________________________
d=halfnote

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