Music Player Network Home Guitar Player Magazine Keyboard Magazine Bass Player Magazine EQ Magazine
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Applying Modes Question #2959448
11/24/18 12:49 PM
11/24/18 12:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi folks:

It has been a while since I've been here, but I have learned so much from this forum and I am very thankful. Through being here, i have learned how to apply the pentatonic scales throughout the neck and also how to move it back three frets to create a happier sounding scale.

I also tried to learn the Aeolian, Dorian, Locrian etc modes, but I think I was chewing off more than i could chew all at once.

So now I am circling back to the modes and learning how to apply them. this is where I need help.

I found a youtube teacher who was very good at teaching the basics of the modes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lr_FlFS14s&list=PL2So5opWVIasylMLGGJKum-pHw9ymuiKD

So now I understand that the modes are implemented by having the "shape" start at the root note to "tonic" that you wish to start at. So for example, if i wanted to play the Dorian mode in A, I would make sure that I placed the first note of the Dorian 'pattern" on the A.

So, for example, i'd start at the 5th fret of the low E string and I'd place my first finger there. I would then place my third finger on the 7th fret on that same string, and my pinky on the 8th fret of that same string.

Then I would put my first finger on the 5th fret of the A string and my third finger on the 7th fret of that same A string.

The next location would be the same formation, starting on the 7th fret of the A string

I have three questions (to start with)

1. To continue with the Dorian scale, is it just a matter of continuing to place that shape further down the neck until you run out of frets? (understanding that when you get to the B string, you have to shift a fret) ?

2. What are the most common scales used in rock music? I heard it is the Dorian and Max.....? (however you spell that). Is that true?

3. What is the relationship between soloing with the pentatonic scale and the modes mentioned above? Can you start with a pentatonic approach and then switch over to a Dorian or Aeolian formation? Is that common?

Thank-you

Charles

GP Island
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2959467
11/24/18 03:05 PM
11/24/18 03:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
I think yer looking at these ideas in the wrong way, that is as rules about how to play (as in yer example of how to finger the notes).
Modes are simply various inversions of scales.
They developed over a long time (rather than being a single concept) as European church-based musos (who did have deep concerns abt rules) either developed ideas or accepted them from folk musicians & from other cultures.

There are a lotta books you should look through to find the historic contexts for all this but the most basic thing in actual practice is that the modes generally used are, in essence, versions of the major scale, staring on the notes other than the tonic (aka the 1).

Start w/ knowing what the major scale is & how it relates to the common minor scale.
Don't worry so much abt what's "the right way" to play as getting a mental concept abt how their sound & the effects they create musically.
That, rather than rules, is what will enable you to understand how they're structured & to use them effectively.

More later ...but to answer one Q you asked, the most common mode in rock music is the Mixolydian, which can be found by starting the major scale on the 5th & playing to the next 5th (or by playing the white keys of the piano from G to G).
If you examine it, it's just a major scale w/ the 7th shifted down to b7.

As far as shifting between scales or modes, yes you can do that b/c that may be what the music yer playing needs. You can also use notes that are outside a scale or mode, even while staying within that scale.
Know why ?
Because that may be what the music needs !
What music calls for is sounds & that trumps rules.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2959492
11/24/18 06:00 PM
11/24/18 06:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi D and thank-you. More and more, i am appreciating the value of listening to what my ears tell me, more than anything else. At the same time, i like to try to understand things like modes, scales etc in order to better guide my starting points.

I'm going to give the Mixolydian a go and report back once I have had a chance to.

Having played the Aelion mode, I find that it gives off a different feel than the pentatonic approach. More and more, i am finding that i mix the pentatonic approach with other approaches, my ears are getting better at predicting what would work and what wouldn't.

My biggest challenge seems to be how to call upon known 'rules' with my own ears.

My focus will now be in applying the various modes, so if there are any tips anyone can share, that would be great. tell me like I'm stupid. I won't be offended.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2959497
11/24/18 06:40 PM
11/24/18 06:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Cool, MF ( shocked ) !

Per the Mixolydian mode, if ya consider it, It's just the major scale w/ a b7, hence it ubiquity in blues-based rock---it's a natural fit.
Similarly the Aeolian, which is just the common minor scale.
I could list them all in order but you can find that in many books or even at Wikipedia.
[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music) ].

They all can be considered & experimented with by playing a major scale first on the tonic (Ionian), then the 2 of the scale (Dorian---which might be the 2nd most used in rock since it's just a minor scale with b7).
Go on down the line (major scale starting on the 3rd note, etc) & you have them all...although there are other more esoteric modes, as well, & if you wanted to you could create yer own.

I suggest to pick a few sources, book or online & use those as yer reference base.
It's good to look at more than one b/c sometimes terms an writer uses may be confusing or they may expound an idiosyncratic idea.
When I started studying theory it took me a while to realize that classical terminology used (uses ?) a lotta terms that could be much simpler or even excised from use.
For ex., when I read abt a "minor 7th" I thought of the chord when the writer meant only a b7 melodically or harmonically, not as part of a chord.

Also, while gtr is where we are as musos, a kb is the easiest way to get a fast idea of the diffs between modes b/c they all are variations on the basic major scale & can be compared visually & theoretically by playing the white keys---much easier & more apparent than they look on the gtr.

The downside is thinking that the theoretic understanding is the same as understanding their use.
That use, if based solely on theory, will always be sorta mechanical, which is kinda OK as a student, but will not allow you to develop as freely as working via yer ear.
There can be more uses of modes than conventionally applied.

Here're some ideas you may find helpful:
When studying any musical concept find practical examples of its use in songs & consider how it works in that context.
Pick some tunes & investigate what modes they use.

It can also be helpful to not try to do much at the same time.
Play a buncha tunes that all involve 1 mode in a single session & at another time test-drive another mode.
I think their distinctive qualities will sink in better that way.
Then when you get some of the more usual modes under hand, branch off into the odder ones.

Best of, Buddy !


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2959566
11/25/18 02:07 PM
11/25/18 02:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A mode is more about the sound, then the scale. in fact, you can use the same scale to hear all of the modes...Here is a simple way to understand/"hear" the modes:

Play the C Major scale on the 8th fret:
---------------------------------5----
--------------------------5-6-8-------
-------------------4-5-7--------------
---------------5-7--------------------
--------5-7-8-------------------------
----8---------------------------------
From here, we can do all of the modes. For example, Start on the fifth fret instead of the 7th and do 5-7-8 on the low E string, then the rest, the same. Suddenly, you have an A minor scale, from the same notes. The Minor scale is also known as the "Aeolian" mode. It's sound happens ever time you start on the 6th note of a scale and play the same notes. So, in C Major scale, starting on an A instead of a C, but playing the same notes, will make it sound like an A minor scale instead of a C major scale.

You can use this to hear all of the modes. Pick any note in the above scale and use it as your root note. If you start on the 2nd note, for example, the "D", you will get the Dorian mode in D. If you start on the 4th note, the "F", you will get the Lydian mode in F.

Here are the different note orders to hear the different modes:
C D E F G A B C - C Ionian Mode (Major)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

...D E F G A B C D - D Dorian Mode
...2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2

......E F G A B C D E - E Phrygian Mode
......3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3

.........F G A B C D E F - F Lydian Mode
.........4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4

............G A B C D E F G - G Mixolydian Mode
............5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5

...............A B C D E F G A - A Aeolian Mode (Minor)
...............6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6

..................B C D E F G A B - B Locrian Mode
..................7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2959567
11/25/18 02:13 PM
11/25/18 02:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
I have a section on modes and the sounds they make (what they are good for) in the theory section. You can find it here:
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads..._Tr#Post1582022

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2959628
11/25/18 11:12 PM
11/25/18 11:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Thanks to all. It will take me a few days to a week to absorb this. I will post again once I have.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2959677
11/26/18 12:44 PM
11/26/18 12:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
A String and D

I continue to read your posts and I have also reviewed the links provided.

i have decided to start with the Mixolydian Mode. The way i best learn is to actually apply it and start soloing to a background track. Can anyone recommend a background track or two, where this mode would work?

I think my first step will be to feel comfortable playing the Mixolydian Mode, but I'll need a few tracks to solo over and need help selecting those.

A String: This is what you wrote after Mixolydian Mode description. " is a great scale for dominant and dominant-7 chords. Great to use after the pentatonic blues scale to add a cool jazzy feel.:

Based on that, does that mean I could use a backing track in Am for example, (like this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Yu9sN7E194


and solo using the pentatonic and then switch to Mixolydian Mode. Would that work?

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2959697
11/26/18 02:29 PM
11/26/18 02:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
While on record as looking at musical Qs as a bit outside The Rules, I'd be remiss if not pointing out that when using modes yer still just using scales & those still hafta fit the musical context.
If you try to fit a mode w/maj 3rd in over a minor chord, yer gonna hafta do some shifting.

As you already seem cognizant, also, as you play any piece of music yer gonna shift between scale concepts as the chords shift. Little music actually stays in one tonicity throughout.

I suggest that you use a slightly diff approach.
Pick the music you want to practice, play along enough to find the notes involved & consider which modes/scales would be involved.
That way yer investigating what the music naturally calls for.
Use that as yer main approach &, as a separate experiment, try applying particular modes to songs to see how they fit or feel in those contexts...which is what your plan sounds like to me.

Sometimes it will seem to fit perfectly, sometimes it will stretch the musical atmosphere, sometimes it will seem totally Out.
Those reactions you feel will be the determining factor in how applicable the mode/scale is in that context.

Sometimes what works in one section of a song is diff from what works in another section.
For ex., in the track you linked, if you matched Mixolydian directly to the chords, it would fit most conventionally over the 5 chord.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2959715
11/26/18 03:40 PM
11/26/18 03:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,356
Los Angeles
S
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Scott Fraser  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
S

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,356
Los Angeles
I have to say I've never understood relating modes to anything other than the key I'm in. Theoretically, yes, but practically, no. I learned the classical (church) modes as geometric patterns or shapes, which makes it easy to relate any mode to any key. But they're just scales, & any chord can have a scale played over it, & you just determine whether it needs a major or minor third, a major or minor seventh, & a major or minor sixth. And you're not going to play a minor second in most Western music, flat fifths, augmented fourths are colors mostly found in jazz & blues, etc. Theoretical concerns may complicate the process.
And, Music Fusion, be aware that any pentatonic scale is just a subset of a mode. They're not exclusive or different at all. Modes just add 2 more notes to a pentatonic. Play what sounds right over chords, i.e. no dissonant notes, & figure out what scale it is later.


Scott Fraser
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Scott Fraser] #2959718
11/26/18 03:46 PM
11/26/18 03:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Good points, SF, esp abt the pentatonic being just a subset of larger scales that can vary as one select which notes to add.
&, if not too obvious, there are 2 pentatonic scale: the happy major one & the bluesy one.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2959767
11/26/18 08:00 PM
11/26/18 08:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
"I suggest that you use a slightly diff approach.
Pick the music you want to practice, play along enough to find the notes involved & consider which modes/scales would be involved.
That way yer investigating what the music naturally calls for."

Thanks again folks. I understand the value of experimenting and simply playing modes and or scales over music to see which fits, but that would mean that i'd have to learn all the modes before taking that approach.

In the spirit of walk before you run, is there a piece of music that i can practice the Mixolydian to? I know my learning style and what works best for me is to carve out one piece at a time. Maybe I can get into experimentation with my ears. once I've learned a few modes, but I'd like to try starting with one. Any suggestions on music to play over?

Last edited by Music Fusion; 11/26/18 08:08 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2959773
11/26/18 08:12 PM
11/26/18 08:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Quote:
but that would mean that i'd have to learn all the modes before taking that approach

No, not really.
You will always only be working on one thing at a time, no matter how you try to approach this.
As I mentioned before, my suggestions are that you work on narrow areas & try to hear how they function.
Could it be that yer tryna get quick answers to Qs that don't work the way you hope ?


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2959931
11/27/18 11:35 AM
11/27/18 11:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Found this for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiV1zXaQG_w

You can use the A minor scale's notes on the fifth fret (So you don't have to memorize a new pattern) and this will result in you playing the G Mixolydian scale. (They are also the same notes as the C Major which the A minor is the relative minor of. This way, when you play the 5th mode of the C Major, you are also playing the G Mixolydian. I know it all sounds confusing, but I want you to see how these same notes can produce different sounds depending on the chords they are played over. That is what modes really are, IMO.)

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2959951
11/27/18 01:00 PM
11/27/18 01:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: A String
...This way, when you play the 5th mode of the C Major, you are also playing the G Mixolydian. I know it all sounds confusing, but I want you to see how these same notes can produce different sounds depending on the chords they are played over.


Good point abt modes technically in 1 key being applied to another.
That also reiterates that the modes mostly used are all just a series of shifts of the major scale.
In this case it could be said that using the Mixolydian mode 1 full step lower than the intended key is the equivalent to using the Aolian mode (the next higher mode in the series) in A.

But all that's a bit theoretical.
I again urge anyone studying this or any aspect of music to just start playing along some plan of study in order to begin grasping how all this functions, both aurally & conceptually.

As long as the approach is "tell me what to play over some chord" rather than "give me an idea how this works & how I can study it" (which has been done here, in several slightly diff ways) any student's just following directions, not learning how to hear what's happening.
Does that seem too persnickety ? grin
The best way to learn is a bit at a time & by active practice.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2960025
11/27/18 05:26 PM
11/27/18 05:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
@D. I used to get my students to learn the A minor scale on the 5th fret and show how you could start on the C on the fifth string to play the C Major scale; therefore teaching the idea behind the "Relative minor". Then, I would have them chime each note and play over it, using the same scale, only ending in the relative root note. So, hit a D and then play the same scale ending with the D. The sound would be a Dorian mode for D. Then Hit open E and play the same notes only ending on the E after each phrase. Then they were playing the Phrygian Mode of E. Etc. etc. It's a great way to hear how the modes sound, even though the notes are the same.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960051
11/27/18 07:14 PM
11/27/18 07:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
& I think that's a good idea.
There've been several approaches offered here that are, in many ways, similar.
I have no criticism of any of the ideas offered so far
(other than, even in the case of my suggestions there's been no mention of singing the notes while playing as a way of deepening the internalization of pitch).

I am kinda getting the impression, however, that sometimes ppl want things defined for them w/out actually working to develop their understanding independently or recognizing that the "right" way to play music is somewhat mutable.
I could be wrong in the present instance, but I'm confused when someone keeps asking what seem to me variations on the same question.
idk


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960055
11/27/18 07:24 PM
11/27/18 07:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi folks:

I don't know if anything is being implied here, but last time I came here for advice on the pentatonic stuff, i took all the advice very seriously, worked very hard to learn it and I do not think i wasted anyone's time. So, I am not looking for quick answers to anything and having played by ear all of my life, and being a songwriter by trade, I realize the value of learning rather than memorizing.

So let me reset a bit.

On this page, toward the bottom, there is a diagram of the Mixolydian mode.

https://www.guitarworld.com/lessons/jazz-guitar-corner-learn-all-seven-major-modes-easy-way

I was planning,. as a starting point, to practice the fingering of this mode, and I thought it would be good to find a piece of music that it would fit over, in order for me to practise it.From there, you will notice on this same page, it shows you how to play the other modes.

In any event, i am sure I can find a backing track by looking on youtube and doing a search. i just thought someone may have thought of one to suggest.

Part of the issue is that i am not used to thinking of playing from a theoretical view at all. So, when folks refer to scales, major, minor etc., it is difficult for me to follow.

You might say I have an odd way of learning.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960062
11/27/18 07:49 PM
11/27/18 07:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Cool, MF !
Not implying yer wasting my or anyone's time, just that we may not be communicating eye-to-eye, if you see what I mean... grin

I just try to encourage ppl to develop their own identity as musos, ergo, take a gander outside the usual methods...for ex., one might finger any set of notes on any set of strings in various ways depending on where exactly they were going...dig ?
I trust you do !

Remember: what sounds the way you want it to is what's right for the music.
wave


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2960098
11/27/18 09:48 PM
11/27/18 09:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,081
Northern California
Larryz Online content
10k Club
Larryz  Online Content
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,081
Northern California
@ Music Fusion, The teacher in the OP is one that you had last time we heard from you. Glad to see you are sticking with it and he is very good at explaining things and providing charts. The answer to your question regarding switching in and out of Pentatonic is Yes! Line up you major Ionian and minor Aeolian with the pentatonic scales. As Scott pointed out they are one and the same with just a couple of notes added. As Astring and D points out, it's all about the major scale being shifted around. Each of the modes follows the same pattern of dots as the major scale and are a part of the major scale and/or relative minor scale. The Dorian portion is favored by a lot of rock players. Line it up on your tonal center, chart it out and hopefully you'll then do the same with any mode. The pattern does not change all the way to infinity up or down the fretboard...pick a key...pick a mode...and go.


Here is another approach by David Wallimann. Call him up on YouTube by name and you will learn all kinds of tricks and theory and quick learning methods. In this clip you can start at 5:45. You will see how you can use the Dorian mode, the octave pattern concept (in the OP training link you posted), switching in and out of the Pentatonic, etc. It is a journey that you must take to understand all the good comments you are getting from the forum members as you can tell they have taken the same ride before. Check this out at 5:45 and learn to use the Dorian over a 4chord pattern moving around or staying still:



Good luck and have fun with it! cool


Last edited by Larryz; 11/28/18 02:01 AM.

Take care, Larryz
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Larryz] #2960133
11/28/18 01:52 AM
11/28/18 01:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
No offence taken

I will circle back to this thread soon. I always like to dive into what has been suggested here, when i have solid time to do so. I find that trying to read and then do this on the fly, doesn't work for me.

So, out of respect for the time you've taken to explain stuff to me, I am going to have a go at what you have all written as soon as I can find some solid time. Which i am hoping is within the next several days.

Thank-you I will be back once I have had a chance to think about what is said here.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960252
11/28/18 03:53 PM
11/28/18 03:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I find that trying to read and then do this on the fly, doesn't work for me.





Well, attention is the primary tool to exercise !


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2960277
11/28/18 06:00 PM
11/28/18 06:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
So, I think I've figured out why I am getting so confused.

Here's where I have been:

I have learned how to play the pentatonic scale throughout the entire neck, and i believe I am proficient at it now . Or, at least, I can do so fairly easily now.

So now, i have turned my mind back to modes, and I thought I started understanding it based on what i read here and based on that Youtube tutor that I have been following.

But every time I try to go to that next step, I see references to major scales, minor scales etc, and how modes are variation to those scales.

But it occurs to me that the reason why I do not understand some of what is being said, is that i have totally skipped over learning basic scales. So while I can drum up a half decent solo now, using the pentatonic scale throughout the neck, the excitement of all that, resulted in my skipping the basics.

So, I guess my question is- before diving any further into the modes, should I take a step back and learn the basic scales? I am guessing the answer is yes.

Stupid question- so how do I approach that? What are the basic scales to learn? I know many of you have done a lot of great work posting info to this site in the past, so I am not asking anyone to reinvent the wheel.

if my assumption is correct that I need to step back and learn the basic scales, is there is link to these basics that someone has already created? I suspect there is, but I have seen so many good posts and links from this site, that I am losing track of where I seen what.

Advice please?

Thank-you






Last edited by Music Fusion; 11/28/18 06:03 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960295
11/28/18 07:33 PM
11/28/18 07:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
There are many scales which are basically a pentatonic with extra notes or notes missing. However, a mode is basically a pentatonic scale played over a chord, other than the root. This creates a myriad of cool, different sounds.

For sure, learn the Major and Minor scales. Depending on your style, I would also learn the Blues scale (Which again is just a variation on the pentatonic). The Major is THE scale. The minor is actually just a mode of it. As for the other scales, I'd save those for when you understand modes. No need to convolute things.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960298
11/28/18 07:35 PM
11/28/18 07:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
@d, your approach was perfectly fine. Just, when someone is having trouble with a concept, the teacher in me looks for other ways to explain. There are many ways to understand modes.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960311
11/28/18 08:28 PM
11/28/18 08:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: A String
There are many ways to understand modes.



I guess I was stressing a learning method concept more than the desired A to the Q.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960315
11/28/18 08:50 PM
11/28/18 08:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
So, I think I've figured out why I am getting so confused.

Here's where I have been:

I have learned how to play the pentatonic scale throughout the entire neck, and i believe I am proficient at it now . Or, at least, I can do so fairly easily now.

So now, i have turned my mind back to modes, and I thought I started understanding it based on what i read here and based on that Youtube tutor that I have been following.

But every time I try to go to that next step, I see references to major scales, minor scales etc, and how modes are variation to those scales.

But it occurs to me that the reason why I do not understand some of what is being said, is that i have totally skipped over learning basic scales. So while I can drum up a half decent solo now, using the pentatonic scale throughout the neck, the excitement of all that, resulted in my skipping the basics.

So, I guess my question is- before diving any further into the modes, should I take a step back and learn the basic scales? I am guessing the answer is yes.

Stupid question- so how do I approach that? What are the basic scales to learn? I know many of you have done a lot of great work posting info to this site in the past, so I am not asking anyone to reinvent the wheel.

if my assumption is correct that I need to step back and learn the basic scales, is there is link to these basics that someone has already created? I suspect there is, but I have seen so many good posts and links from this site, that I am losing track of where I seen what.

Advice please?

Thank-you!



In re the highlighted text in the quote, I don't think you need to that.
First, that looks to me like another diversion from directly pursuing what yer intent is.
Moreover, & to paraphrase John Lennon, who wasn't the most schooled musician but was extremely skilled at expressing himself musically
(& who, FWIW, unlike McCartney, was never recorded singing off pitch),
"No matter where you start, it's where you start."

Anywhat, I think you should stick with this idea:
The 2 pentatonic scales can be considered the basis of the other scales.
Yer already proficient at that.
Think of the main modes & everything else as just the pentatonic scales w/a couple other notes added (as has been mentioned above).

I think that will actually help you w/understanding the structures of modes/scales b/c instead of tryna reconceptualize a buncha new note sets, you'd simply be taking the basic pentatonic forms (which you already have a grasp of) & test-driving the added notes.

I think that would both save you a few steps & emphasize more clearly the diffs those added notes make.

In any case, don't worry so much abt how you learn but realize that if yer learning something, yer learning & sooner or later yer concepts will deepen & that ("Oh, Man !") even then you'll never know everything abt music's possibilities. grin


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2960372
11/29/18 02:16 AM
11/29/18 02:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi folks

Everything you all said makes sense. So, it is not a matter of your teaching skills or styles. Its just a matter of it clicking, and sooner or later it will. I'm a very determined learner.

SomethingnD last said, sounds like it can work for me. If I think of modes as just variations on the pentatonic scales, it will take a lot of the mystery out for me. So, if that light, let me start by asking the following:

1,\. You mentioned the two pentatonic scales. I know the minor scale, and i know moving those shapes 3 frets back, produces a happier sounding solo- is that what you mean by the two pentatonic scales (the minor pentatonic, and then the movement of those shapes 3 frets back)?

2. If i understand this whole thing correctly, modes are accomplished by starting a particular"shape" on a particular root note. So starting that same shape on a different root notes, produces the same mode, but starting at a different root.

But, at the same time, rather than thinking of it that way- you can also think of a mode as a variation on the pentatonic scale.

Correct?

So.......I need to find a logical place to start. Maybe with the aeolian? Maybe find a picture of that mode and determine how it relates to the pentatonic? And hopefully that will resonate and stick?

Yes?

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960426
11/29/18 01:23 PM
11/29/18 01:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Okay, working with what you have...
The reason that dropping the scale down three frets give you a "Happier sound" is because you are playing a mode; the Ionian Mode or Major scale.

Let's specify to simplify. So, playing the Minor scale in A, from the 5th fret. You get a minor sound. However, you have noticed that, when you drop the same pattern down three frets, you get a "happier sound". Let's look at why and how this can be used to understand modes:

When you move a scale around, you are simply changing it's key. So, dropping the A minor scale, down one fret, will give you the Ab Minor scale (G# minor). Dropping it down two frets will give you the G minor scale and dropping it three frets will give you the Gb (F#) minor scale. You can see how the note you land on becomes the new key.

Now, If you strum an F# minor chord and play that pattern on the 2nd fret, you will hear that it is clearly the F# minor scale. However, as you noticed, it also seems to have a happy sound if you play it over an A Major. This is the basis of modes. Different sounds/moods from the same notes, depending on what you are playing it over.

Now, let's look at what's going on:

When you play those notes on the third fret, over an A chord, you are playing the A Major scale. The notes A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A. So that's why it has a "Happy sound" here but why does it also has a minor sound if you play it over the F# minor chord? Well, have a look at the modes I listed. You can see that the 6th note in the A Major scale is the F#. This means, when you are playing over an F#, you get the Aeolian Mode, also known as the Minor scale. Boom. The sounds have changed, using the same notes. What if we played that same pattern on the 2nd fret over an E? Well, the E is the 5th note in the A Major scale so the "Sound" we would get is more jazzy. It is known as the Mixolydian Mode.

You can see that, moving the same pattern up and down the neck and varying the root note you are using in the scale can suddenly provide endless sounds.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960455
11/29/18 03:10 PM
11/29/18 03:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
1. You mentioned the two pentatonic scales. I know the minor scale, and i know moving those shapes 3 frets back, produces a happier sounding solo- is that what you mean by the two pentatonic scales (the minor pentatonic, and then the movement of those shapes 3 frets back)?

As AString's already answered,that's yes.
& that's b/c all this stuff is just shifting the view one takes of any mode's tonic note.

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion

2. If i understand this whole thing correctly, modes are accomplished by starting a particular"shape" on a particular root note. So starting that same shape on a different root notes, produces the same mode, but starting at a different root.

But, at the same time, rather than thinking of it that way- you can also think of a mode as a variation on the pentatonic scale.

Correct?

Mostly correct. I think you have the concept in general.
But the starting point gives the mode a diff name, so while they're all kinda like a DNA helix that repeats, each sequence segment gets its own ID.
{BTW, in identifying notes there are 3 ways:
--- the sound they have (which is,I think,the most important to internalize);
--- their note name (A...B...C...etc);
--- their position in a scale set designated by number [1 = tonic, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8 (octave)]
That last is also maybe a better way to realize their overall relationships than by letter names...& is handy for when you get to analyses of multi-octave lines & some pianist is talking abt 10ths (an octave + 3rd) & other extended intervals. grin

See, the 2 versions of the pentatonic (or the whole system of modes) are just variations in how some of the notes relate to each other aurally.
The way a b3 differs from a M3 or how a b7 or M 7 give the music being played diff emotive or expressive feels.
That same effect comes when any notes in the scale are varied.
Octave & 5th, octave &b5 or octave & #5---all give a diff feel.
Same w/varying the 6th (which will come into play later when you start considering the variant forms of minor scales, a subject made overly complicated in trad theory & one which you needn't get hung up abt right now).

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion

So.......I need to find a logical place to start. Maybe with the aeolian? Maybe find a picture of that mode and determine how it relates to the pentatonic? And hopefully that will resonate and stick?

Yes?

That's basically what I meant, however I think that's still tryna look at this from the destination rather than the starting point.

I'd start by taking some tunes/chord progs/pieces of music that you like & are already familiar with
& examining the notes involved to see/hear how they make themselves distinctive to you.

That will give you a direct idea of the effect these note variations make you or others feel
(which will not always be the same for everyone but will tend to be similar)
& yer familiarity w/them will make it both easier to recognize these effects
as well as make the study more fun than if yer starting w/material that yer not familiar with or may not even like
.

Never make yer studies into chores.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960472
11/29/18 04:12 PM
11/29/18 04:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Craig-- that was very helpful and I am very close to "getting it". I just need to come back to what you wrote a few more times. But it is starting to click. Either that, or my brain needs oiling;-)

Thank-you, I'll report back once I have had a chance to tinker with what you wrote again.

Last edited by Music Fusion; 11/29/18 04:13 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960473
11/29/18 04:24 PM
11/29/18 04:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Always happy to help out. By all means keep on digging, practicing and asking questions!

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2960515
11/29/18 07:49 PM
11/29/18 07:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi guys:

Thanks for hanging in with me.

Yesterday night, I spent over an hour listening to a tutorial by Steve Stein. I find that tapping into different sources sometimes helps me think of things differently. The bad part of that, is that it can also cause confusion when people are explaining things in different ways.

What I got from stein's tutorial is that within the C major key, as it is played throughout the neck, we already have all the modes built in. And then he talked about the key of C being made up of

1. C Maj
2. Dm
3. Em
4. Fmaj
5. G Maj
6.Am
7. B dim

He said that the 1st, 4th and 5th are always major and the 2,3 and 6 are always minor. The 7th is a diminished

This made sense to me, and it matches what you folks have been saying.

He then said the 1, 4th and 5th are the core chords of the key, while the 2, 3 and 6 are the ones that can give your solo "colour" if you choose to emphasize any one of those.

so reading the recent posts here, the following question emerged:

I understand how moving the pentatonic scale from fret to fret will change the sound of it, particular to what chords are being played underneath it- and i think i understand how those "sounds" get known as lydian, Aelian etc., but what I am not sure i understand is this:

To achieve the different modes, I thought the fingering changed. But when i read what Craig wrote, it seems that i just need ti move the pentatonic around to achieve the modes.

Is that true? If not, what have i misunderstood?

Thank-you


Last edited by Music Fusion; 11/29/18 07:51 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960532
11/29/18 09:31 PM
11/29/18 09:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
It is one way to use the static pattern to achieve the modes, yes. Moving ANY scale pattern will change it's key. Look at the super simple blues scale:

---------------------5-8----
-----------------5-8--------
-------------5-7------------
---------5-7----------------
-----5-7--------------------
-5-8------------------------

This is the Blues scale in A. You can move this scale up and down the neck and each time you do, you change the root name. So play the same pattern on the 3rd fret and it's the Blues scale in G. Play the same pattern on the 12th fret and it's the blues scale in E.

The thing is, there are only 12 notes. Those 12 notes are repeated all over the neck meaning you can figure out MANY ways to play the same scales. But, in the end, if you play any major scale, starting on a different note - in what ever pattern you are using - you will get a mode; the key it's in depends on the root note you are starting on:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1=Ionian Mode (Major)
2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2=Dorian Mode
3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3=Phrygian Mode
4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4=Lydian Mode
5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5=Mixolydian Mode
6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6=Aeolian Mode
7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7=Locrian Mode

So in C it's C Major, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian etc. etc. BUT, if you play in a different key, you'd get other root notes so, in the key of G Major, you would get these modes:
G Major, A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian and F# Locrian etc. etc.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960549
11/30/18 12:22 AM
11/30/18 12:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi Craig- see my comments below yours:

This is the Blues scale in A. You can move this scale up and down the neck and each time you do, you change the root name. So play the same pattern on the 3rd fret and it's the Blues scale in G. Play the same pattern on the 12th fret and it's the blues scale in E.

I am with you on this. I understand this concept and have been applying it extensively when i solo using the minor or major pentatonic.

The thing is, there are only 12 notes. Those 12 notes are repeated all over the neck meaning you can figure out MANY ways to play the same scales. But, in the end, if you play any major scale, starting on a different note - in what ever pattern you are using - you will get a mode; the key it's in depends on the root note you are starting on:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1=Ionian Mode (Major)
2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2=Dorian Mode
3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3=Phrygian Mode
4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4=Lydian Mode
5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5=Mixolydian Mode
6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6=Aeolian Mode
7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7=Locrian Mode

So in C it's C Major, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian etc. etc. BUT, if you play in a different key, you'd get other root notes so, in the key of G Major, you would get these modes:
G Major, A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian and F# Locrian etc. etc.

I think I get this, but not sure. Let me test this with you.

So I am playing the Am pentatonic scale starting at the Low E string, 5th fret. I know that when I do that and play an Am chord, it sounds very bluesy.


Now, if I stay with that same shape (the minor pentatonic shape), and I move my baby finger- which would ordinarily be on the 8th fret of the Low E string, and instead put my baby finger on the Low E string, 5th fret and (in a way, working backwards) continue the rest of the shape as follows:

Low E string, 1st finger, 2nd
A string, 1st finger, 2nd fret
A string, 3rd finger, 4th fret
D string, 1st finger, 2nd fret
D string, 3rd finger, 4th fret
G string, 1st finger, 2nd fret
G string, 3rd finger, 4th fret
B string, 1st finger, 2nd fret
B string, 3rd finger, 5th fret
E string, 1st finger, 2nd fret
E string, 3rd finger, 5th fret


What is it that I would be doing? Have I formed a different mode by shifting the shape so that although I know if I continued the shape back to the first note of its shape, I'd be on the F# root note, I rather am starting the shape with my pinky on the A note (low e string, 5th fret)?

And what affect might this have if i played over a F# Minor chord ( I am assuming bluesy feel), and if I played this over an Am chord (not sure what happens then).

Thank-you

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960649
11/30/18 03:45 PM
11/30/18 03:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
No. When you drop the A minor scale, down to the second fret, you are playing the F# minor scale.

A mode is simply the same notes, played over different chords/root notes. I'll tell you what...give me a few to get back to my PC and I will record a little video, showing you what I mean so you can better "hear" it.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960652
11/30/18 03:55 PM
11/30/18 03:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
My response here is before reading the entries between the quoted questions below & the exchange(s) that followed.

Craig's an experienced teacher; I'm a guy who sometimes shows ppl what I know.
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I find that tapping into different sources sometimes helps me think of things differently. The bad part of that, is that it can also cause confusion when people are explaining things in different ways.

My experience is based on what I encountered when moving beyond simply playing music to digging into the theory & the history of Western music theory---which did not develop in a single stroke & in fact has changed quite a bit over it's history.
Reading trad books on theory I would encounter terms & phrases such as "...the minor 7th...".
I'd read that as a reference to a minor 7th chord.
It took me quite a while to realize that for older classical musos that meant the interval of a b7.

My point being that terms can often be confusing, esp, as you've noted, MF, diff sources may seem similar but in actuality not be so.
That's why I always try to deliver small bits of info & suggest that that's the best way to study.
"Too much, too soon" & all that !
It's also why I think dealing w/th notes is more clear when using the interval's position [ 1 (tonic), 2, 3, etc ] is more clear than note names.
The note name refers to a particular position, etc, whereas the interval number is systematic & clear no matter what position or specific musical example.
To me it's the simplest AND the most clear way to designate theory principles.
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion

What I got from stein's tutorial is that within the C major key, as it is played throughout the neck, we already have all the modes built in. And then he talked about the key of C being made up of

1. C Maj
2. Dm
3. Em
4. Fmaj
5. G Maj
6.Am
7. B dim

He said that the 1st, 4th and 5th are always major and the 2,3 and 6 are always minor. The 7th is a diminished

This made sense to me, and it matches what you folks have been saying.

He then said the 1, 4th and 5th are the core chords of the key, while the 2, 3 and 6 are the ones that can give your solo "colour" if you choose to emphasize any one of those.

so reading the recent posts here, the following question emerged:

I understand how moving the pentatonic scale from fret to fret will change the sound of it, particular to what chords are being played underneath it- and i think i understand how those "sounds" get known as lydian, Aelian etc., but what I am not sure i understand is this:

To achieve the different modes, I thought the fingering changed. But when i read what Craig wrote, it seems that i just need ti move the pentatonic around to achieve the modes.

Is that true? If not, what have i misunderstood?

Thank-you


The description of the structure of the modes & the major scale, etc is correct & so is the list of the chords as you move along the major scale.
However, as per the idea that terms may carry diff meanings for diff ppl, I find there to be perhaps confusion abt a phrase such as "move the scale".
To me that's shifting the scale to diff position but staying in the same place within the scale.
I think at times it may be used to actually mean moving to a diff position within the scale.

In a perhaps related way I really discount specific fingerings except as relates to specific musical phrases in particular positions---& even then fingerings may change depending on what's happening in a specific musical context & what's comfortable for a player &/or what they're doing with the music, etc.
You might jump to a diff string or position or not & all that, to me, is more abt what's happening in each specific situation.
Dig ?

Plus, so far the discussion here's mostly been abt the single note aspects of things,.
The chordal/harmonic aspects may complicate things til you get a more definite idea of the musical tone of diff modes
.
idk

That said, let me maybe muddy the waters myself by suggesting this:
In the same way I suggested keeping to the pentatonic skeleton & adding notes as needed, I wonder if it would be helpful to begin the study of the chordal/harmonic aspects of mode/scale interactions by reducing the scale(s) to the intervals involved in the most common chords.

For example, if we run through this series of chords (from above), which are the chords most common to the key of C major ...
1. C Maj
2. Dm
3. Em
4. Fmaj
5. G Maj
6.Am
7. B dim


We might also (& I think more systematically) think of them this way.
1. C Maj = I maj
2. Dm = II min
[more traditionally this is usually written as ii m---same thing really, just lower case for the minor chords}
3. Em = III m ( or iii m)
4. Fmaj = IV
5. G Maj = V
6.Am = VI m (vi m)
7. B dim = VII dim (vii)

[& if you haven't seen it, there's a symbol for the dim chord that looks like math exponent, a tiny zero up by the top of whichever designation you use, letter name or number name]

Further, we might reduce the identification of the chords to this, based on their intervallic structure, instead of using the note names...
[Note that these intervals are based on strictly keeping to the unaltered key while in actual use some song might have an Em 9, for instance b/c songs shift keys all the time while they're actually driving around the streets in yer town grin ]

1. C Maj = 1 3 5 [ with potential additions of M7 9 ]
2. Dm = 1 b3 5 [ w/additions of b7 9 ]
3. Em = 1 b3 5 [ b7 b9 ]
4. Fmaj = 1 3 5 [ M7 9 ]
5. G Maj = 1 3 5 [ b7 9 ]
6. Am = 1 b3 5 [ b7 9 ]
7. B dim = 1 b3 b5 [ b7 ]

[BTW, that's usually called a 1/2 dim chord b/c the 7th interval breaks the pattern of diminished intervals that build the chord in its usual modern use / for a "full dim" chord, that 7th gets flatted again so its a bb7 in that case]... rolleyes

All that may fall into the category of TMI at this point but, as I wondered, does the numerical designation of the intervals help make the patterns more clear than translating the note names between chords ?


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2960664
11/30/18 04:15 PM
11/30/18 04:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada


Okay, I forgot to mention that the Lydian would be in F.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960680
11/30/18 05:41 PM
11/30/18 05:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,081
Northern California
Larryz Online content
10k Club
Larryz  Online Content
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,081
Northern California
| |X| |o|x| | 1st string
| |x|o| |x| |
|o|x| |x| | |
| |x| |X| | |
| |x| |x|o| |
| |X| |o|x| | 6th string


start on the 5th fret Key of A minor using the 1st and 6th strings as the tonal center
x = Pentatonic minor scale
X = Root tone A
o = added Aeolian scale notes

play chords Am and Dm and keep repeating, then play either scale shifting between the 5 note Pentatonic Minor and the 7 note Aeolian minor scales.

Hope this is helpful as a starting point...

Last edited by Larryz; 11/30/18 06:09 PM.

Take care, Larryz
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Larryz] #2960685
11/30/18 06:07 PM
11/30/18 06:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,081
Northern California
Larryz Online content
10k Club
Larryz  Online Content
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,081
Northern California
| |X| |o|x| | 1st string
| |x|o| |x| |
|o|x| |x| | |
| |x| |X| | |
| |x| |x|o| |
| |X| |o|x| | 6th string


start on the 2nd fret Key of F# minor using the 1st and 6th strings as the tonal center
x = Pentatonic minor scale
X = Root tone F#
o = added Aeolian scale notes

play chords F#m and Bm and keep repeating, then play either scale shifting between the 5 note Pentatonic Minor and the 7 note Aeolian minor scales.

Hope this is helpful as a starting point...


Take care, Larryz
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960687
11/30/18 06:08 PM
11/30/18 06:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: A String


Okay, I forgot to mention that the Lydian would be in F.

Yo, CB, what are those bird sounds that crop up intermittently there ? grin


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2960689
11/30/18 06:12 PM
11/30/18 06:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Lol! Yeah, we have a few conures. Cute, but can be noisy!

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Larryz] #2960694
11/30/18 06:25 PM
11/30/18 06:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi Craig and D.

Thanks to both of you. All of that helped, and the video was very helpful.

So now I think I get it. Let's just focus on modes for a minute because I think I am more clear on moving around the pentatonic.

So, in modes, we are playing the same (I think Craig referred to them as notes in his video), but the the movement on those notes to commence on a different fret, results in a different mode, which has a different musical character (sad, happy, etc). Correct?

Is is accurate to also say, the movement of those note positions, relative to each other, to commence on a different fret, results in a different mode, which has a different musical character (sad, happy, etc). The reason I reworded it, is that when i think of the notes moving.. the movement from one fret to another changes the note name right? But, as d seemed to suggest, as as Craig illustrated in the video, we are more accurately talking about moving the root note and the relative positions of the other notes that follow it- right? Maybe now I'm getting too technical ;-)

So now that i think i get it, I have to step back and think about how I can apply it in my playing. Because presently, my soloing is all about moving pentatonic ally across the neck, with perhaps a little adventure now and then.

But this modal thing is a slightly different way of planning an approach to a solo, right?

So, now I have to think about how to apply this stuff.

I think d may have suggested in the past that i simply pick some music that i like and experiment....so maybe that's the next step.

So if I stayed with a major scale, and found a piece of music that in in the key of the root note of my major scale, would it not be just a matter of playing over top of that music by moving the same relative position of the notes to different frets- resulting in moving to a different mode that would have a different sound? And if so, despite moving the shape to start on different fret, would I still remain in key?

I guess the best way to know is to try it, but I'd also like to understand it conceptually as well.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960696
11/30/18 06:35 PM
11/30/18 06:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
So, you are almost there. Basically, playing the same notes, lets say in the key of C from the example, will yield different sounds depending on what chord you play those notes over. No need to move up or down the neck, just use the same notes. Now, if you want to change the key, then you CAN move that pattern up and down the neck. So, for example, if you are playing the C Major scale but starting and ending on a D, you get the D dorian. If you slide the whole thing up the neck (like in the example) so you are playing the D Major scale, you can also use THOSE notes to play over a E and get the E Dorian mode.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960698
11/30/18 06:59 PM
11/30/18 06:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
So, in modes, we are playing the same (I think Craig referred to them as notes in his video), but the the movement on those notes to commence on a different fret, results in a different mode, which has a different musical character (sad, happy, etc). Correct?

The mood or feel of the music varies by the specific notes involved, yes, & since the common modern modes are all just a continuous sequence/series of notes, as you shift yer focal point, it can be viewed as a diff mode.

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
But this modal thing is a slightly different way of planning an approach to a solo, right?

So, now I have to think about how to apply this stuff.

I think d may have suggested in the past that i simply pick some music that i like and experiment....so maybe that's the next step.

So if I stayed with a major scale, and found a piece of music that in in the key of the root note of my major scale, would it not be just a matter of playing over top of that music by moving the same relative position of the notes to different frets- resulting in moving to a different mode that would have a different sound? And if so, despite moving the shape to start on different fret, would I still remain in key?

I guess the best way to know is to try it, but I'd also like to understand it conceptually as well.


Chek the highlighted parts of what I quoted just above.
Yer conceptual understanding will become more clear as you actually try things out.
If you try to get a full understanding before you start, that'll take longer.

As far as planning a solo (or exercise or etude or composition) there are 2 ways to approach music: intellectually or expressively.
They needn't be in contradiction nor do you always need to take the same approach but I tend to think the greater value (as well as more "natural" results) come from an expressive approach.
Overly planned music can seem stilted.

That's why I suggested that yer best progress might be finding music that you already like & have a feel for & exploring how modes, etc, fit into that music rather than working through exercises that themselves may require you to work in new territory.
You'd still be learning but you'd already know some of the landmarks.

Also keep this in mind---the names of scales/modes/whatever or concepts behind what you play are really just identifiers for talking to other musos, if you get the idea of the note patterns & can use them the way you want, it doesn't matter if you can name them.
Music has always preceded the intellectual diagramming of it.
The one time in music that it didn't (Serial or Atonal classical music of the early 20th C) the results were mostly unsatisfactory.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2960706
11/30/18 08:29 PM
11/30/18 08:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: d
Also keep this in mind---the names of scales/modes/whatever or concepts behind what you play are really just identifiers for talking to other musicians


This is a good point to keep in mind. What we are doing here is trying to put names on how the notes make you feel, based on the chords you are playing them over. These names are just ways to explain and teach to other musicians but, in the end, it's all about the sounds.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960733
11/30/18 11:55 PM
11/30/18 11:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi guys...I will reserve commenting on the technical stuff as I have not had time to study it, and I always like to give things the necessary thought before asking a question. So leave it with me and I will will report back and, as always, thank-you!!!

I did want to comment on a non technical aspect.

I could not agree more that intellectualizing music is, in a way, counter to free expression and can stifle creativity. I've written about 200 songs in different genres and I can never remember a time when I approached it by thinking about how it might look on sheet music. In fact, quite the opposite. the last song I wrote, was done entirely in my head as I was hanging Christmas lights .

Having said that, I have always respected those who understand music theoretically and while I think representing a creative work by lines and notes on pages of sheet music is a bit revolting (to me at least), I have alway respected the ability to do that.

I know people (such as myself) who play almost entirely by ear, and i also know people who can't play much unless it is scripted for them on sheet music. If i had to choose one or the other, i'd choose to remain as I am as i believe that music first comes from the soul.

Having said all that, i can't ignore the fact that there is a science of sorts behind understanding how music works, and that is why i am throwing myself at it. Maybe that is why I have a difficult time grasping certain scientific aspects of music- because I have spent my entire life letting it pour out of me, agnostic to the rules or "things" that guide it.

I am glad i am learning the other side of music, but it is not natural for me. But I love a challenge.




Last edited by Music Fusion; 11/30/18 11:58 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960803
12/01/18 01:51 PM
12/01/18 01:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Abolutely no contradiction between the emotive & the analytic approach & both are important.
They're just 2 views of the same thing.


You have , as we all do, stuff to play with (I live that phrase better than "work on") to take some steps forward
but if ya wanna, let's follow some of what we've talked abt here as processes (& I fully defer to AString---along w/some others here--- as an instructor).

A PROPOSAL
What does everyone think abt this idea? idk
MF, name some of yer fave music.
While we as commenters examine those tunes ...
[& everyone, I hope, hold back from offering analysis til later cop after MF does some experiments of his own]

What do you think are the scales/modes that can be used to play those tunes, MF ?
In some cases there may be more than one option.
Do you find, in considering them, some work better than others ?
In cases where more than a single approach might work, what do you think the diff approaches create as effects?

The idea's not to find The Right Answer as much as to test drive the possibilitease grin & see/hear how they work & what you like abt the diff effects that result.
Cool ? idk

Last edited by d; 12/01/18 01:58 PM.

d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2960805
12/01/18 02:35 PM
12/01/18 02:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
While I agree that Playing modes over music is a great way to learn them and, in this case is where we want to get to, I think it's important for him to have an understanding of what a mode is first. Far too many times I've seen students that know all the terms and how to apply them, but have no understanding of what any of it means. Understanding modes and, consequently, scales, is a fundamental foundation in understanding how music works. The fact that the same notes can sound totally different when played over different chords is how scales came to be in the first place.

And, D. In NO WAY is this going against what you are saying. I agree 100% with everything you've said here. I just want to make sure he has a basic foundation before we build the house on it.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960828
12/01/18 05:17 PM
12/01/18 05:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Okay...so i developed this before reading the most recent posts, but maybe it is in a similar direction.

I recorded a very brief chord progression that has served as part of a song I once wrote. It's a simple C F G progression and could be heard here

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ogimz5U_9kUft6RnB0cDBumZhsLymA-q/view?usp=sharing

So I looped this and used it as my backing track.

At the same time, i was nervous about proceeding without first learning at least the major scale. So, I learned the first three shapes of the C major scale and I am starting them on the 8th fret, Low E string.

Not surprisingly, all three shapes work over top of this progression. They all sound in Key and I know it is because the C major scale is made up of C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am and Bdim

So, it is only fitting that the three positions of the C major scale sound good over this chord progression because it is made up of the 1st (root), 4th and 5th. (trust me- a week ago, i would not be able to talk in these terms- so i am learning ;-).

So now......to apply the Dorian mode in the above chord progression, i do what? Do I move my third finger down so that it is now on the C root note and play the rest of the same pattern from there?


Last edited by Music Fusion; 12/01/18 05:18 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960836
12/01/18 06:01 PM
12/01/18 06:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Dorian is the second mode in a Major scale. So, you need to play which ever Major scale has a C for the second note. In this case it's A# Major. So, if you play the A# major scale only start and finish on the C, you will be playing the C Dorian mode. Now..to be fair, I'm not sure I would do that over the progression you have.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960842
12/01/18 06:27 PM
12/01/18 06:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
In regard to the most recent remarks here, AString & I've known each other to whatever degree both here & at http://www.thestringnetwork.com (his own cool music & gear discussion site) for a good while so we needn't reassure each other over our mutual affiliation, but as happens, we may have diff opinions. cheers

I've the impression that MF does now have a general, if not detailed, idea of the basis of modes & would best learn more by starting to explore them in practice.
If one waits til there's a memory bank w/full recollection of the details of all the names, etc. rather than a handy study guide, that's maybe a long time.
As I said before I think getting smaller bits of info ingrained is easier (my fave word grin ).

I simply think it's easier to get an understanding of the musical effects in the context of music he's already familiar with than generic chord sequences, esp those lacking a song or tune.

If that doesn't resonate w/you guys, that's OK but I do think it's worth trying.
------------------
Now I'm off to chk out MF's link to his track ! w00t


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2960870
12/01/18 11:09 PM
12/01/18 11:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
For sure, D. There are as many ways to learn as there are to teach. Could very well be your method will work more efficiently than mine. Cheers!

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960871
12/01/18 11:29 PM
12/01/18 11:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Folks---they are both working...and i appreciate all the contributions here. Let me think about the latest things said here and i'll report back

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960902
12/02/18 12:15 PM
12/02/18 12:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Craig wrote:

Dorian is the second mode in a Major scale. So, you need to play which ever Major scale has a C for the second note. In this case it's A# Major. So, if you play the A# major scale only start and finish on the C, you will be playing the C Dorian mode. Now..to be fair, I'm not sure I would do that over the progression you have.

So, does that mean that Dorian mode can only be explored when playing in the major scale. And here's a real stupid question. I am learning there C major scale throughout the neck. I am on position 4, having learned positions 1,2 and 3. Does that mean that i can move that scale around.

So, for example, if I started that scale on the low E string, 5th note, would that mean I was in the A major scale, and if so, if I started that scale on the B note, would I be in B Dorian? I hope the answer is yes, because that would mean it is starting to click lol

Last edited by Music Fusion; 12/02/18 12:16 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960904
12/02/18 12:30 PM
12/02/18 12:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
If you move the A Major scale shape up a few frets to the B, it's the B Major scale. If you move it to a G, it's the G Major scale. ANY scale pattern can be slid up and down the neck to change the key but maintain the scale name.

Where you are getting lost is how modes fit into this. A mode is simple the scale, played over a different key than the root note suggests. So, play the A Major scale on the 5th fret and number each note. The notes you are playing will be "A, B, C#, D, E, F#, and G#." If, using the same pattern and not moving up or down the neck, you start on the second note, the B, you will suddenly be hearing the B Dorian Mode. So playing the notes B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A, B. without moving anywhere. If you need to play the Dorian mode in the key of C, you could move that whole thing up one fret.

Last edited by A String; 12/02/18 01:05 PM. Reason: Re-worded for clarity
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960908
12/02/18 12:42 PM
12/02/18 12:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi Craig

I don't think I said this right. I know that if I started the entire scale of the B, I'd be in B. But what I mean is if I started the second note of the scale on the B, would I be in Dorian, albeit in the A major scale? am I saying the same thing as your reply is? If we are, which I think we are, I've hit a BINGO moment.

Last edited by Music Fusion; 12/02/18 01:04 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960910
12/02/18 12:47 PM
12/02/18 12:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Indeed. The only thing left is to know WHICH mode you are playing. So, the A Major scale, played from B to B would give you the Dorian mode in the key of B.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960912
12/02/18 01:06 PM
12/02/18 01:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Very cool . Now, i just need time to reset my brain to make it absorb this. FINALLY.

Thanks so much to all of you. I took everything everyone said to heart and although they present different approaches, they all have had an influence in my thinking and learning.

I'll report back once I have had a chance to try this stuff out.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960913
12/02/18 01:09 PM
12/02/18 01:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Glad to hear! Nothing quite like that illusive "Ah Ha!" moment! By the way, I notice you are in Ontario, if you are close enough to Burlington and looking for lessons, I can highly recommend the teachers at Long and McQuade's, here. Very skilled teachers.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960928
12/02/18 03:20 PM
12/02/18 03:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hey Craig:

I used to go to L & M in Burlington all the time. I now go to the one in Hamilton as it is closer. Thanks for mentioning that.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2960940
12/02/18 04:44 PM
12/02/18 04:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Hey! Very cool! I used to teach at Lakeshore Music and then, when they moved, Long and Mcquade. Small World.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2960947
12/02/18 05:35 PM
12/02/18 05:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Just for additional clarity. So, I am playing the A major scale starting on the 5th string of the low E. If I stay to that scale and pattern, and don't move my hand anywhere, but if I start on the B note and not play that first A note, am I not in Dorian mode in the key of A? I think you said I was in Dorian mode in the key of B. Is that what you meant to say?

I remember when it was called Lakeshore music and I recall going there.It was at a different location that the current Burlington L & M wasn't it?

Last edited by Music Fusion; 12/02/18 05:45 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2961012
12/03/18 11:02 AM
12/03/18 11:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Generally speaking, when you start a scale on a note (The root note) that is the key the scale is in. So if the second note is a B, it's the Dorian mode in B. If the second note is an f, it's the Dorian mode in F, etc. etc.

Yes, Lakeshore Music was on New Street for many years. I taught there back then and moved with them to the new location on Mainway, when they went. I taught at the new location for a year. Shortly after that, they were bought out by Long and Mcquade.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2961207
12/04/18 01:36 PM
12/04/18 01:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Yes, I remember those days. I still buy my stuff from L & M and I am also an author in their gear guide magazines. They have great policies in terms of returns and exchanges etc. I always feel safe buying from them.

Here's where I am at. Thanks to your folks, i finally understand how to place modes. But now I have to put what i learned into practiser. I am almost at that point but not quite.

First, I want to finish learning all the positions of the major scale. I have memorized and practiced up to position 4, and as soon as I memorize and practise the remaining positions, i will loop back and practise modes, the major scale and the pentatonic. Although I think i understand all these things individually now, I have not put my mind to how they intersect, overlap etc. I could to do that up until now because it is impossible to do that unless you understand each of those components individually. So the game plan is:

1. Learn the rest of the major scale positions and practise them.
2. Do some excersizes where I am playing the different modes over pieces of music I am familiar with (as suggested here)
3. Start thinking about how the pentatonic, the major scale and the modes relate.
4. Venture into the minor scale- is there one- is is that the same as the minor pentatonic?

The above steps may take time cause I take these learning opportunities very seriously. I will report back along the way.

Thanks again!!!!


Last edited by Music Fusion; 12/04/18 01:37 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2961236
12/04/18 03:14 PM
12/04/18 03:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
The minor scale is indeed a thing. From the Major and minor, you can also branch out by adding/removing notes, to make even more scales (ie. Blues scale, Harmonic Minor etc.etc.). I have a list of the common ones and their patterns on the theory thread. Scroll down to Scales (I think it's the third post down and starts with the blues scale): http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads...Tr#Post#1582024

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2961237
12/04/18 03:16 PM
12/04/18 03:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Just to explain, you can see we've taken a scale and done stuff to it. lol. So, for the blues scale, you use this (Instead of first note, second note, third note, etc.): 1,b3,4,b5,5,b7 (The b meaning flattened.)

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2961241
12/04/18 03:27 PM
12/04/18 03:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Thank-you. I am going to make a mental note to go back to what you wrote, once I have practised the other stuff a bit more.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2961261
12/04/18 05:28 PM
12/04/18 05:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
...I want to finish learning all the positions of the major scale. I have memorized and practiced up to position 4, and as soon as I memorize and practise the remaining positions, i will loop back and practise modes


A final thought, MF.
Realize that, while you might practice particular fingerings in order to learn basic principles, when yer actually playing the way you position the notes of lines should ultimately fit into the best, most efficient fingerings for the context.

At some point, you'll see that strict adherence to the fingerings you learn to work across the fretboard might be better adapted to working up & down along the fretboard & jumping from position to position as you mix all these scales, modes & ideas you use in moving past exercises.
Best of !


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2961272
12/04/18 06:15 PM
12/04/18 06:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
For sure. I mean...patterns help you know where the notes are, but you kinda need all of them to move freely. As an example, here are the locations of the notes, along the neck, for an a minor scale:

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2961277
12/04/18 06:44 PM
12/04/18 06:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
I knw you see my point, CB, like & eventually so will MF (if (s)he doesn't already but do you have some handy maps for playing along the length of the neck ?
Or diagonally , string to string ?

My whole point here is to encourage outside the box (pun intended) thinking.
It can be necessary to get a grip (another gtr pun) on standard approaches when learning but players should always remember that there are diff---& sometimes even new !---ways to do things.
cheers

FWIW, I'm still wondering abt what MF likes & maybe some specific examples... snax


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2961536
12/06/18 02:24 PM
12/06/18 02:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Don't worry. I completely get it. Let me give you two examples:

Prior to learning all this stuff, when i learned a solo, it was completely by ear (which remains my preference). When learning by ear, I focussed a lot on neck efficiency and found that I could normally play 90% of the entire solo while remaining in the same basic position. I've seen Youtube videos where people teach other people, and they end up moving their hands all over the place unnecessarily. I try to make my movements as efficient as possible by looking for the notes i need to play within a confined area. I venture out of that area when i need to (ie- sometimes, the solo calls for a very high note that forces you to go to another part of the fret board). But, for the most part, being efficient is important to me and saves from, a lot of unnecessary movement, which only makes things more difficult.

Secondly, when i write music, it is never with theory in mind. It's all about finding my sound on the fretboard, freely and without any regard to rules.

But please know, that my now focussing on rules, scales etc. is because I wasn't to round out my knowledge. What i am now learning is making me a much stronger player. But it does not take the place out of my normal attack on writing original music.

Everything I am learning here is all good and I am fitting it in as appropriate and not as a replacement for efficient playing habits.

I have a question...Which i will post soon

In terms of diagonally, this is something I need to circle back to and further develop. I know it is very beneficial to be able to see the shapes connecting diagonally and horizontally as well as vertical. Especially when determining your next landing points, and it is especially useful when free forming it- ie: wandering creatively around the neck. seeing the connections shouldn't act as rigid landing points, but they should serve as flags that you may elect to go to if the feel calls for it

Last edited by Music Fusion; 12/06/18 03:02 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2961542
12/06/18 02:59 PM
12/06/18 02:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
I have been learning how to play the Major scale by using this chart:

http://www.fretjam.com/major-scale-positions.html

I have learned all the positions, and have been practicing them by playing the entire scale across the whole neck to a loop i created with the progression F# B and C#. It actually sounds good playing that scale over top.

But I do not understand why, on the diagram I am using it:

1) shows a separate diagram to the right of each of the positions. So for example, in the first position, it shows a diagram with the numbers 7 1 and 2 across the high e string and then to the right, a separate diagram with the same shape, but showing 1 2 and 4 across the high e string. What is the purpose of that second diagram and what do the numbers mean?

2. Then you will notice that off of each set of diagrams, there is a line that shoots out and points to a place on the guitar neck, which is shown vertically on the right hand side of the page. I don't understand the purpose of those lines. What are they trying to tell me?

So, ironically, I can play the whole scale in every position across the neck, but I am getting caught up on what those things mean.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2961545
12/06/18 03:23 PM
12/06/18 03:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hey guys, as an aside, below is a link to a solo that I wrote and put to a backing track i found online. I entitled this piece The Chase.

I find that when writing solos, I b=do better if I imagine a scene, or a theme.

I called this The Chase, as I was imagining a group of teens stealing a car and being chased by the police. Through the solo, you will hear my guitar mocking the cops by playing a "na na na na na na" mini hook. As well, I tried to emulate the dissonant sounds of a police siren. You might hear that in the solo.

I basically relied on the minor pentatonic throughout most of it. None of this would have been possible if it had not been for what i leaned here.

Have a listen

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17T6g4GFkz6zlal8ehL7uQ69t0B5j7Ltj/view?usp=sharing

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2961553
12/06/18 04:13 PM
12/06/18 04:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
So, the numbers on the fret board are to tell you which note in the scale, you are playing (ie. first note, second note, third note, etc. etc.).

Great job on the solo!

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2961558
12/06/18 04:44 PM
12/06/18 04:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: A String
Great job on the solo!

I heartily endorse the above opinion from my esteemed colleague The entire track, really...best version of "Further On Down The Road" I heard all day !
rawk
One Q---is there a sustained kboard bed going on under the other insts or is that just my ears ringing ?! laugh

Thanks for hipping me to that site, MusFu !


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2961581
12/06/18 06:48 PM
12/06/18 06:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Thank-You.

I don't know what is underneath the backing track.I found it on youtube and the only thing I did to it, was I reinforced the horns at the very end, as I found that they were a bit buried in the original track. So i just recorded some horns at the very end and added that.

The track was done in one pass for 75% of it. there was 25% that I punched in afterwards.

Thank-you for listening and commenting.

Thanks Craig about the note numbers explanation.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2961603
12/06/18 09:45 PM
12/06/18 09:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
ok...I think I'm ready to learn the minor scale. A few questions:

Is it a moveable scale, with different positions, just like this one?
http://www.fretjam.com/major-scale-positions.html

How many positions does it have?

I will see if i can find a diagram as like the one above./

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2961705
12/07/18 01:42 PM
12/07/18 01:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
All scales are moveable.
Any group of notes is moveable.
What defines a scale from just a group of notes is that a scale is a group of notes that spans a full octave & has no significant gaps between notes.

A further defining factor is scales/modes have attached to them a particular "mood" or other quality that derives from the effect the particular notes convey...but that quality can also be embodied by just a few notes.
It doesn't require a full scale.

As far as "how many positions, etc", that kinda depends on how you define position.
Some might do so by starting points that are the tonic (the "1" of the scale) or by other main notes like the 3 or 5.
Some, like me, might consider any note to be a valid positional mark...but I'm abt as liberal an interpreter of musical rules as you'll find.
It might be worth reminding that when one emphasizes certain notes in playing (as sometimes happens when playing in diff positions), it could be considered a diff scale/mode.

Ain't life wonderful(ly confusing) !


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2961709
12/07/18 02:05 PM
12/07/18 02:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,349
CEB Offline
10k Club
CEB  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,349
There are no magic beans. Modes can be a method of mental organization. Sometimes it is easier to think in terms of accidentals. A common structure in a lot of my solos is the switching between Aeolian and Dorian. Easy example is my piano ride in Moon Dance. It may be simpler to think of throwing accidentals on the 6. Or .... Just flatting the 7 of a major instead of calling it Mixolydian. Whatever works. The reality is we learn all this so we can internalize it 'forget' when we use it.


"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!
So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: CEB] #2961737
12/07/18 04:15 PM
12/07/18 04:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
@musicFusion, I would start by learning a single pattern for the scale you want. That way it can be moved up and down to change the key it's in and you can solo with it right away. When yo uare comfortable with the patterns, "in a box", then you can start learning where other notes are that you can grab to move it up and down the neck.

The Minor scale pattern (There are two main shapes I use) are going to give you all of your Major, minor and modes. So...it's good to learn them.

Here is the Minor scale pattern for Am on the 5th:

----------------------------------5----------
---------------------------5-6-8-------------
--------------------4-5-7--------------------
---------------5-7---------------------------
--------5-7-8--------------------------------
-5-7-8---------------------------------------

Learn this. It is also the C Major scale.

Now...move every single one of those notes, up two frets and you get the B minor scale (or the D Major). Move it up so you are starting on the 12th fret and you are playing the E minor scale (G major). Just knowing this one pattern in a box, allows you to play the major and minor scale in any key.

As i said, there IS a second pattern I use almost as much and I also tend to connect the two patterns but...focus on this one first.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2961738
12/07/18 04:19 PM
12/07/18 04:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
As you can see, the root note is the first note in this scale (The 5th fret on the low E, in this case). What ever note that is, when you move the scale, will be the key your minor scale is in.

As for the key of the Major scale...(once you have down the minor, we can get into that. It has to do with modes)...Basically, the root note will be the note on the 8th fret here. So, what ever note that is when you move it, becomes the new major key.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2961739
12/07/18 04:20 PM
12/07/18 04:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
If it helps, think about how moving a barre chord changes the key of the chord.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2961768
12/07/18 09:22 PM
12/07/18 09:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,924
hurricane hugo Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
hurricane hugo  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,924

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2961770
12/07/18 09:32 PM
12/07/18 09:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi folks.

The first position of the minor seems pretty straight forward and I had no problem playing or remembering it. So, if I am playing the minor scale patter in F#m, the new major key would be A?

By the way, I skipped a very important step in my learning. I was supposed to try applying what i learned about modes- which I haven't done. So, I will likely shelve the minor scale for now, and go back to trying out sowed mode stuff to see if I can put into practice, what I learned.

Will report back.

Thanks all

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2961859
12/08/18 12:51 PM
12/08/18 12:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
So, if I am playing the minor scale patter in F#m, the new major key would be A?


Yes. It would also be any of the modes that have the root notes in that scale. So, because it's the Major scale in A, it is also the Dorian mode for B. Etc. etc.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2961884
12/08/18 04:11 PM
12/08/18 04:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Okay...so I am back to focussing on applying the modes, and I think I may need a little hand holding on this.

So I have created the following chord progression loop:

A C#m D E

So, how do I apply the Dorian mode over top of this? I thought I knew but now I am second guessing myself.

If I play the A major scale ,

A B
C# D E
F# G# A
B B# D
E F#
G# A B

Would be just a matter of keeping my hand in the exact same position and instead of starting on the root A note, start on the B (E string, fret 7) and end of the B (High E, 7th fret)?

Thank-you

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2961999
12/09/18 01:19 PM
12/09/18 01:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
I think I should have continued on the modes thing before trying to learn the minor scale. i actually understood the modes and had an aha moment, but now I'm not as sure.

Here's what once again has me confused. I know that a mode involves starting a "scale" ie; the major scale, from a note other than the root note. So for example, if you start from the second note in the scale, you are in Dorian.

What I am again getting confused, is if I did that, how would it change the colour or characteristic of the sound?Wou;dn't I just be starting from a different place but rendering the same sound characteristics as if I played the entire scale.

I sense that i am once again missing something.

Damn..i should have stuck to the modes thing when I was getting it.

Sorry for taking a step back.

Last edited by Music Fusion; 12/09/18 01:19 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962014
12/09/18 05:03 PM
12/09/18 05:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
The surprising thing about modes is the colour does change. Watch the video I posted again.
Oh...and in your example, playing the 2nd note in the A Major scale will give you a B Dorian sound when played over a B chord.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2962038
12/09/18 09:26 PM
12/09/18 09:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Thanks Craig. I have watched and read this thread and I have decided to post a video so that I can validate my assumptions- if they are in fact correct.

In this video, I think I am playing the major scale over top of a chord progression consisting of A C#m D E,


in the first pass, you will see that i am playing the major scale, starting from the Low E String, 5th fret (A).

The second pass, I am playing from the second note in the scale. Does that mean I am playing in Dorian B (even though I am in the key of A)?

The third pass, I am starting from the third note in the scale. Does that mean that i am now playing in C# Phrygian even though I am in A?

I have a feeling I am doing this either completely right, or completely wrong and sometimes showing what I am doing is the best way.

Here is the video. I thought it would be easier to demonstrate what I am doing right or wrong.

Here is the video. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bdCKo4B-c-BSaUMgPNNvghcGfLPUO1xl/view?usp=sharing

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962039
12/09/18 09:28 PM
12/09/18 09:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
BTW. ... thanks to all for your patience. I assure you I'm trying.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962135
12/10/18 01:19 PM
12/10/18 01:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
You are super close. So, let's focus on the A Major scale. You are correct in saying that, if you start playing the A Major scale on the second note, you are now playing the B Dorian. However, where you are getting confused is in the chord you are playing it over. The sound change comes when you play the same notes over a different chord. So, if you play those notes over an A chord, it sounds like a major scale. If you play it over a B chord, it will suddenly sound like the Dorian mode. If you play the same notes over a C#, it will have a Phygian sound. The reason I say to start on that note is so you have the correct root note and an idea of how to play riff using the same notes.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2962136
12/10/18 01:20 PM
12/10/18 01:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
My advice is to hit open A and play the notes. Then, Hit a B note and play them again, trying to start and stop each riff on a B instead of an A.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2962156
12/10/18 03:56 PM
12/10/18 03:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Ok Craig,...now it is making sense. The reason i was not detecting any change in the character what i was playing, is that I should have playing those notes over a different set of chords.

Leave this with me and I will try what you suggested a little later and report back.

Just to be clear:

Play the same notes I played in the video, but use a backing track that starts with a B chord...right? and If I start from the 5th fret on the low E, I was be in Aeolian. If I start at the 7th fret on the low E, I would be in dorian- while playing a B chord as backing...correct?

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962158
12/10/18 04:03 PM
12/10/18 04:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
I just tried it. i changed the key of the backing track so that it starts in B. So now it is
B D#m E F#

i played the same notes that i did in the video, but I started from the 7th fret (low E)

So that puts me in B Dorian correct?

I did notice a big change in the characteristic of the sound, so i guess that's a good thing. I'm not sure if all of the notes were in key though. So maybe my chord progression was not ideal for this particular mode?

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962224
12/10/18 08:20 PM
12/10/18 08:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Yes, sometimes you need a different chord progression. For example, you wouldn't play a Major scale over a minor chord progression. But...that aside, you seem to have gotten it. Now, find some backing tracks that are designed for different modes, figure out where to play it so you are in the right key and practice away. As I said, starting and ending on the root note will help you get the feel of the mode's sound.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2962246
12/10/18 10:47 PM
12/10/18 10:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
...By the way, I skipped a very important step in my learning....

EVERY ONE SKIPS IMPORTANT STEPS ....that's what learning is all abt

BTW / FWIW / everything in music is abt what one plays in the context.
The notes that surround what you play are what defines how what that you play is heard.
TO BE CLEAR, it doesn't matter what yer intent is.
It's how it's heard.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2962261
12/11/18 12:27 AM
12/11/18 12:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
I think I need some time to mess around and think.

I'll report back once I have had chance to do that.

Last edited by Music Fusion; 12/11/18 01:02 AM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962270
12/11/18 01:04 AM
12/11/18 01:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
This seems like a good place to get jam track s for the various modes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m37y2mlt...PESyjrgs7QUCQUo

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962353
12/11/18 04:36 PM
12/11/18 04:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Perfect! Now...just remember that you'll need to move the pattern up and down the neck to get those different starting points for C.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2962512
12/12/18 03:27 PM
12/12/18 03:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Thanks. In addition, I went to Long and McQuades yesterday and bought a book by Hal Leonard called Music Theory. It's for a guitar and has a lot of great advanced info, including a whole chapter on modes. What's nice is that it comes with sound files so I can hear what things are supposed to sound like. That, combined with what I have learned here, should help me conquer the applying modes step- which is my next step. I'll report back. It may be a bit of time because I'll be away over Christmas. I may get to this beforehand though. if I don't have a great Christmas/holiday all and thanks for your patience and expertise!!!!

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962987
12/14/18 09:23 PM
12/14/18 09:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Have a happy holidays!

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2963088
12/15/18 04:03 PM
12/15/18 04:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi Craig and all. Happy holidays to you as well and thanks for everything. Turns out that the Hal Leonard book is taking me for a bit of a turn. there are many concepts in the earlier chapters (before i get to the modes chapter which is a lot later in the book), that I feel I have to go through. things like triads, intervals and the like have been unlocking other aspects of the guitar that i didn't realize existed. So, I think I'm going to take some giant steps back and work my way through the entire book.I am understanding about half of what i am reading in the book, but even that half, is making a big difference in my understanding of the guitar neck and how things can be played alternatively to how I would normally play the,

So, I think this side turn will be well worth the delay in getting back to modes. But I'llley you know where I am at along the way.

I should have dome this long ago, but better late than never.

Last edited by Music Fusion; 12/15/18 04:04 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2963195
12/16/18 12:20 PM
12/16/18 12:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Yeah, it's always difficult to know where a person is in their learning. You should certainly have a good solid understanding of scales and chords before moving into modes. But...in the end, you now have a grasp of the concept that will make it WAY easier when you come back to it. Good on you for taking the time to learn the basics before moving forward. You'll be glad you did.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2963341
12/17/18 03:08 PM
12/17/18 03:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I should have dome this long ago, but better late than never.

@ things 2 consider which are actually the same thing.
[How's that for some math theory !?! grin ]

THE LONG & WINDING ROAD YA RODE


FUN 'LL TAKE THE LONG WAY 'ROUND
Fun will run and play / fun will play around
Longer way to run, but it's so much fun / Fun will take the longer way around
You can take a shorter cut / Yes it's quicker but
Fun will take the longer way around


Don't be a stranger, b/c we're stranger than you !
wave


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2964425
12/22/18 04:09 PM
12/22/18 04:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
I hope Mu Fu sees the Jan GP.
There's a multi-page analysis of how the Mixolydian mode's been used in abt 20 diff pop tunes.

There's also a particularly striking idea from Carol Kaye (a young jazz guitarist before she hit the studio scene as a bassist.
The study of chords & arpeggios is more vital than that of scales.
Point being, I think, that while melodic lines are the basis of songs, the harmonic/chordal structure of music is an easier, more direct way to understand contextually useful variations than the use of scales alone.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2964747
12/24/18 12:35 PM
12/24/18 12:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,081
Northern California
Larryz Online content
10k Club
Larryz  Online Content
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,081
Northern California
Here's and interesting vid by David Wallimann, a guy I suggested early on in this thread that would be worth looking into on YT after MF gets his modes down (just google on his name on YT). He shows moving in and out of the Pentatonic, using 3 of the 7 note modes in a 4 fret span playing across the neck, using chords and their notes while changing modes with each of the I IV V pattern blues chords, working in a 4 fret area different from your comfort zone to get the brain working.

For me the chords are more important for backing my vocals and playing rhythm guitar. The scales are more important when playing lead guitar and improvising. But, they all work together accenting those chord notes when using scales. For me, the scales provide cool reference points (a road map) and are a cool memory aid. They help me hit the correct intervals without really knowing them, understand chords when taking the time to study the intervals and help me skip the clams, so to speak LOL!



cool



cool


Take care, Larryz
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Larryz] #2966521
01/03/19 02:39 PM
01/03/19 02:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi folks and thank-you for not forgetting about me. Here is an update as to where I am at:

I found that I was focussing too much on the theory, and treated it like it was a course that i had to pass. Initially, this was a good approach because it forced me to do some learning rather than just fiddling around hoping that i would play the right solo notes.

But then i found that i got so fixated on learning the theory, that i started hitting brick walls in my ability to understand. So, I began jumping around from modes (theory- as discussed on this board), to different ways of finding octaves, to inversions and intervals and everything else I could find that i found intriguing.

Although the method of jumping from one thing to another was bit chaotic, it seems to be working for me because it is mixing theory with practice, with pure experimentation.

The latest thing I did was looped back to modes and found a Youtube jam track in D mixolydian. While I still struggle with the concept of modes, playing an actual mode to a jam track is helping me get more comfortable. For now, mode wise, i want to spend some time on the Mixolydian mode. I know the full shape, starting oon the D (low string, 10th fret), and I am exploring whether there are other positions of the Mixolydian. I assume you can move the current shape around to other star=ting points and it will work, but I wonder if there are multiple shapes associated with mixolydian. if so, i'd like to learn them next.

VCoincidently, and fortunately, I just read the post by d that says "I hope Mu Fu sees the Jan GP." What is the Jan GP? I don't know what that is referring to, but it sounds very timely given where I am. Can you tell me how to get there?

Lastly, I will be away until the 18th of this month and sadly, will not have access to a guitar during that time. So I will continue when i get back. I'll be checking this thread in the next day or so, i leave Friday.

Thanks and may all of you have a fantastic 2019 and beyond!

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2966523
01/03/19 02:41 PM
01/03/19 02:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Here is the youtube video I was referring to that i am presently jamming to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPIebPDBizs

I need to find out if there are other shapes to the Mixolydian mode, in addition tot he shape that he plays on the D

Last edited by Music Fusion; 01/03/19 02:41 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2966527
01/03/19 03:03 PM
01/03/19 03:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
So, to answer part of my own question, I found these shapes of the Mixolydian mode online:

http://www.discoverguitaronline.com/diagrams/view/13

Now, in the video I linked to above, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPIebPDBizs the shape he is playing starting on the 10th fret of the low E string (D), is not any of the shapes on this chart. So this has me confused.

If I wanted to play the Mixolydian in D, as he does in the video, how do i use this chart to do so?
http://www.discoverguitaronline.com/diagrams/view/13

Last edited by Music Fusion; 01/03/19 03:07 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2966528
01/03/19 03:06 PM
01/03/19 03:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
[this was typed in the same time frame that encompassed the immediately preceding posts from MuFu]

If I understand correctly, yer looking for fingerings ("shapes"). Is that correct ?

In that regard you could play, as I believe has been stated already, any scale/mode starting on any note anywhere along the fretboard.
The relevant factors being...
--to practice exercises for dexterity;
--b/c some position offers comfortable fingering for the music yer gonna play in in a particular situation.

If I'm addressing the Q properly, I can't stress this enough:
the whole point of study & practice is to be prepared for playing what you want as you develop as a player.
The only real rules are what works to achieve the musical effects you want to invoke &, depending on style/genre/artistic goals, those desired results are up to what you intend to achieve in that context...which may be diff from what you intend in another context.

We've heard some of yer playing, so we know yer skilled.
You want to learn more & that's great; no one should be complacent & ongoing development is a goal more should pursue ... but I wonder if, for whatever reason, you might feel unnecessarily intimidated by what you think you don't know.
Remember: the very thing that will make you distinctive as a musician is what you do that's different.

Last edited by d; 01/03/19 03:10 PM.

d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2966530
01/03/19 03:09 PM
01/03/19 03:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hey d.. I really like that you push me to venture out and experiment. That, along with trying to at least know what the "rules" are, is helping me grow.

I am not sure if I asked my question properly. I am confused as to why the Mixilydian shapes in the chart, do not match up to what he is playing on the video.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2966534
01/03/19 03:14 PM
01/03/19 03:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
I see...
I'll have to take some time & look at the clips & charts before I find examples of what yer citing as differences.

Do you see what I'm pointing out, though, abt fingerings are only there as guidelines for study---not as yer only options ?


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2966559
01/03/19 04:46 PM
01/03/19 04:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
"Shapes" are really just common locations to find the notes. Part of the issue here is that you need to realize that scales aren't "Shapes" but instead are a bunch of notes. To make it easier to find them/remember them, on the neck, we use patterns. (Mainly because moving every note up one fret raises the key so we can play the same scale in a different key without having to memorize the note on every fret.)

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2966645
01/04/19 02:06 AM
01/04/19 02:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
So, I know I am still jumping around, but please bear with me. I had a mini breakthrough tonight.

I learned that the Mixolydian scale is the same as the major scale except the 7th is flattened. Thus, I was able to play the mixolydian scale.

Now, I am realizing that as long as I respect the fact that the interval distances remain the same ( in this case, the 7th is always flattened no matter where you play the notes and no matter what octave you start the root on), then you are safe playing it.

I also realized why I had no much trouble with the video that Craig had kindly posted for me. You see Craig started the C major scale on the A string, 3rd fret. I was not aware, until tonight, that one can start a scale on any string.

I thought it always had to start on the low E string. so when Craig was saying that he was paying the C major scale, and then trying to explain modes from there, my mind was stuck on "why isn't he starting on the low E, 8th fret?"

I didn't voice this question because I thought I'd sound stupid, but that was one of the things that was causing a block in my mind.

I am nowhere close to mastering modes, but I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel where the mixolydian mode is concerned.

So, when i asked about "shapes or patterns' of the mixolydian mode, i am thinking that the way I phrased it was awkward. What I should probably be saying is that it does not matter where you start the scale, as long as you respect the interval thing. this will cause the "shapes" to look different de;ep0nding on what root note you are starting on, and what string you choose, but the intervals remain the same.

I am hoping I am correct.

I will try to check in on this thread tomorrow but after that, i will be away until the 20tjh.

Thanks for your patience.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2966756
01/04/19 04:17 PM
01/04/19 04:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
So, I know I am still jumping around, but please bear with me.

NO ! grin
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I had a mini breakthrough tonight.
I learned that the Mixolydian scale is the same as the major scale except the 7th is flattened. Thus, I was able to play the mixolydian scale.

At risk of seeming pedantic, I recall that being my 1st post to this thread, when you were asking which mode might be most common.
That's not important in itself but I wonder if it indicates that yer too concerned abt acquiring info quickly & may be overloading yer "Mental In-Box" without taking time to investigate the subject by playing though & get a real feel for the way various scales/modes sound in various contexts.
That's not a criticism, MF, just a question.
When I was younger I was quite in a hurry to know things & it takes a while, perhaps, to realize that these things do take some time to become familiar.
We're never done with learning these things b/c as long as we play there will be nuances that we catch or develop.
Watch out for the time when you think you've nothing to learn---that's not a good sign !

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Now, I am realizing that as long as I respect the fact that the interval distances remain the same ( in this case, the 7th is always flattened no matter where you play the notes and no matter what octave you start the root on), then you are safe playing it.

Cool---but remember that as you play parts in context you may add or leave out notes. You aren't restricted to only playing the defining notes of scales/modes.
You can mix in other notes or even mix in diff modes...& you do not need to be aware of or have an intellectual justification for that.
It just need to be how you want things to sound.
Dig ?

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I also realized why I had no much trouble with the video that Craig had kindly posted for me. You see Craig started the C major scale on the A string, 3rd fret. I was not aware, until tonight, that one can start a scale on any string.

I thought it always had to start on the low E string. so when Craig was saying that he was paying the C major scale, and then trying to explain modes from there, my mind was stuck on "why isn't he starting on the low E, 8th fret?"

I didn't voice this question because I thought I'd sound stupid, but that was one of the things that was causing a block in my mind.

I am nowhere close to mastering modes, but I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel where the mixolydian mode is concerned.

So, when i asked about "shapes or patterns' of the mixolydian mode, i am thinking that the way I phrased it was awkward. What I should probably be saying is that it does not matter where you start the scale, as long as you respect the interval thing. this will cause the "shapes" to look different depending on what root note you are starting on, and what string you choose, but the intervals remain the same.

I am hoping I am correct.

I will try to check in on this thread tomorrow but after that, i will be away until the 20tjh.

Thanks for your patience.




Hey, pal, work at yer own pace.
This is a lifelong exercise in development.
Cut yerself a big slice of slack & enjoy playing music.
Don't think ya "hafta-hafta-hafta"---OK ?


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2966889
01/05/19 12:37 AM
01/05/19 12:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hey d. I'm not sure I am overloading. i think it is more the case of some things not clicking until i've heard it 300 different ways from 100 different people ;-) But on a serious note, sometimes things appear apparent to someone who knows a lot about it, but not at all apparent to the one who knows little about it. So, as I gather bits and pieces along the way, things that did not resonate initially, suddenly start to.

I can assure you with confidence that nothing written here has been taken lightly. in fact, each time i go on vacation such as that being the case from tonight until roughly the 20th, i always bring a link to this board and re-read everything from scratch. Sadly, i won't have a guitar with me, but maybe that's a good thing.

I always start by playing every note of the mode or scale up and down. Once I think i've gotten the hang of the construct, then i start experimenting by skipping notes, trying uncommon combination of notes and the like. it makes for interesting soloing.

I won't be posting here for another few weeks as I won't have a chance to try anything new until i return.

Until then, thanks again.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2966997
01/05/19 04:13 PM
01/05/19 04:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
MuFu, I meant no criticism nor intended faulting of yer ability to understand...only that I wondered if you might be pushing to hard in a race to reach yer goal & not savoring the territory along the way.

I think the enjoyment of music's the main thing.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2970018
01/19/19 04:53 PM
01/19/19 04:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Well, I am back and still bouncing around.

My most recent feat is I have learned all 5 shapes of Dorian. So I have been jamming along with many different tracks online G Dorian, D Dorian. B Dorian etc., so i get the feel of how the shapes sound in different keys.

I am going to stick with Dorian for a few days. After I am done with Dorian, I'll go back to Mixolydian and learn all those shapes.

Don't worry...I am having a lot of fun applying what i have learned. I'll keep you folks apprised at my ongoing adventures... ;-)

And I know it's not just about shapes and modes. It about the feel.

Last edited by Music Fusion; 01/19/19 04:54 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2970038
01/19/19 06:14 PM
01/19/19 06:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
MF, I think yer on the right track in some ways but I would, again, emphasize the value of putting music studies in a definite context.

One can explore & learn from simply playing forms & patterns.
That's where many very cool creations start but the real expression of music is songs, melodies & other thangs.
That's kinda what y'just wrote but it's more than feels, although those are also valid.
"The Blues", for example, is a feel (or set of feels).

I asked before nut can you tell me a few examples of yer fave songs or music ?
Styles? Cultures ?

I think you'd get a quicker idea of the expressive qualities of modes by studying how they fit w/the music you "feel" & how their nuances affected you.

Abt this...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
...so i get the feel of how the shapes sound in different keys.

That's a sticking point for me & one that I think will waste yer time.
As I think I pointed out before, the idea that the same thing played in diff keys sounds diff is a misconception that's hung around for far to long.
It dates from the times when acoustic instruments had more narrow capabilities than in the modern world.

There is a real phenomena, tessitura, that relates to the pitch range of voices or instruments.
This is most noticeable at the extremes where an instrument or vox will sound v. diff than in it's general range.
In The Olde Daze, particularly w/European ensemble music, this meant that there really was a slightly diff emotion that could be attached to some combinations in certain ranges.
That eventually led to the sort of person who likes to over-categorize things, claiming there were diff expressive qualities inherent in diff keys.

That's not the way it works in the modern world where instruments, esp electronic insts, are much more uniform throughout their ranges.
Truth is that it's simply & solely an idea suggested by the various pitch ranges of instruments/vox & how we respond to what we're most accustomed to hearing.
For example, high pitches tend to sound strained; a rising pitch set suggests (depending on culture) lighter emotions & a descending phrase solemnity.
Try playing a passage in C; C#; D; E of any similarly close set of keys, however & you'll not really hear a diff.
Key has no more effect on music than yer BDay has on yer persona.






d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2970227
01/20/19 03:14 PM
01/20/19 03:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
d. Some of the things you write are beyond me...for now. But they get me thinking, and that's a good thing.

Hard to say my favourite style of music, but I will give it a shot

1. My own originals
2. Classic Rock. Love Led Zeppelin etc.
3. The Beatles
4. Old rock n roll (50's-60's)
5. Blues (should have been number 2 on the list but it just came to me)
6. Country

I am presently on shape 2 ofd the Mixoldian mode. I have been mainly playing the mode in different keys so i can get used to my fingers doing the same thing, on different parts of the fret board. I want these shapes to come out fluidly and if i only do them on one part of the fretboard, they may seem odd as I move them around. So, it is more about being familiar with them everywhere. I know the fingering does not change, but putting it on different spots on the neck makes things look a slight bit different. Just want to get used to it.

I'm having a lot of fun at this and I finding that i have an uncanny ability to remember dishpans. But of course, i don';t wan tot be robotic about music.

Here is a little something I co-wrote

http://musicfusion.us/2share/bmh.mp3



Last edited by Music Fusion; 01/20/19 04:25 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2970252
01/20/19 04:42 PM
01/20/19 04:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
That's all cool, MF, but rather than the types of music, I wonder at the particular songs you like.
Which songs resonate w/you & would therefore be more familiar to you & easier to dig how any particular mode fits w/them ?
When you hip yerself to that is when you get hip to the overall effect.

Any style or, in the case of many bands such as The Beatles any general general categorization, can involve a wide variety of musical effects such as scales (while scales are generally considered building blocks & tools, they're really effects in how the note collections work to build a mood---in fact one might consider that the words mood & mode are equivalent in that the mode/scale works to affect the listener's mood !)

While AString remains a better & faster source of theory than me,
[Craig's really smart & experienced plus is VERY interested in helping ppl] twothumbs
I do think I have 2 areas of expertise that may be valuable to you:
--- You are best served by the idea that there is no need to hurry.
Getting ahead of yerself is not really possible.
Until you get a grasp on an idea---a real understanding of what it does---yer only gonna spin yer wheels.
Like I said before, do not rush yerself.
--- Conceptual ideas are great for study but in the case of music---if not all art---the effect on the listener is what matters.
How many great players have not been able to connect w/ppl ?
As I suspect yer own experience shows, the feeling imparted by music is what matters.

----------------------------------------------------------------
I'll chk yer latest music post out
but in the meantime here's a chance to teach me something...
WTF are "dishpans" ?!


I doubt it has to do w/this..........but idk grin

JAPAN IN A DISHPAN


JAPAN IN A DISHPAN BASS SOLO


SOMETHIN' ELSIE ALTOGETHER


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2970409
01/21/19 12:58 PM
01/21/19 12:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
There is a big difference between memorizing and understanding. Do me a favour...tell me what a mode is.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2970596
01/22/19 12:52 AM
01/22/19 12:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
hi guys.....I have not had a chance to look at the videos posted. A mode, is a variation of the notes of the major scale. Displacing these notes by starting on a note other than the first (for example, starting on the second Dorian), changes the sound of the progression of notes which changes its colour and "mood".

In essence, a mode is a particular way of ordering the notes of the major scale by changing its tonality, achieved by starting on and making a particular note in the scale, the centre or root.

I think I am either not saying what i need to say clearly, or you are trying to tell me something I am not understanding.

Of all people, rest assured that i know that music is about feel and not forumula. I have written over 200 songs and most of them without the benefit of what i have recently learned. they worked because they sounded good, they conveyed a feeling that i was feeling and I had no idea how to represent the chords i played, or the melody i sang, theoretically.

BUT..I have been my own worst enemy by going only by feel. Maybe others may find that commendable (as do i, from an originality point of view), but I have robbed myself of learning about the mechanics and theory of music as a result. I am simply trying to compliment my ability to compose music, with an ability to understand how it works. I know it is not necessary and I'd rather play by ear and by emotion any day, over by sheet music, but I'd rather not have to choose and learn both.

Having said all that, maybe I am a difficult or frustrating person to teach. ;-(

I am only memorizing the shapes, so i can play them. Maybe someday this will all come to me fluidly by ear, or by feel, but one must walk before running. I sense that you may be thinking that i am forgoing the creative part off music (which is its soul), for a fixation ion rule for mechanics. This is not so. But I have respect the mechanics and rules, so that i can expand my learning.

I go back to maybe I'm a difficult student?

Notwithstanding., every thing I learned here will always be invaluable and I am thankful for it.


Last edited by Music Fusion; 01/22/19 12:55 AM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2970599
01/22/19 01:03 AM
01/22/19 01:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
In terms of what songs I like, there are a ton. but if you want me to pick some:

At Seventeen- Janis Ian (great songwriting)
Custard Pie (Led Zep)
More Than a Memory- Garth Brooks
We All Fall in Love Sometimes- Elton John
I'm so Tired- The Beatles
This Boy- The Beatles
Anna - The Beatles
Since I've Been Loving You, Led Zep
Al Stewart- anything from Year of the Cat album
Angel- Tower
Laura- Billy Joel
La Grange- ZZ Top
Cry Baby- Janis Joplin


Last edited by Music Fusion; 01/22/19 01:04 AM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2970600
01/22/19 01:09 AM
01/22/19 01:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Okay...I'm not sure how this fits, and maybe it may send d and Craig over the top, but another exercise I have done is as follows:

I have thought of a theme or a slogan, and then tried to build guitar solos around it. So, for example, I posted something called The Chase, here before.It was a solo based on a vision of teens being chased by cops in cars.

The next thing I am experimenting with is the words "Walking Home Drunk. " I want to write a guitar solo in such a way that conveys the feeling of someone walking home drunk. So I was thinking elongated notes, bending parts, perhaps electronic noise to simulate someone walking into a poll etc.

Now you probably think I'm outright crazy ;-)




Last edited by Music Fusion; 01/22/19 01:10 AM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2970601
01/22/19 01:13 AM
01/22/19 01:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
I just listened to the Captain Beefheart bass solo. I think I get it. The guy seems to be entranced into what he is playing and feeding off the reaction he is getting from the audience. Is this pure music, pure art? I think so from the perspective of playing for and to your audience. Is it masterful? probably not. But it's all about conveying a mode/feeling/emotion, rather delivering a contrived array of notes/scales/chords.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2970602
01/22/19 01:15 AM
01/22/19 01:15 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
"I'm having a lot of fun at this and I finding that i have an uncanny ability to remember dishpans. " I meant to write "I'm having a lot of fun at this and I finding that i have an uncanny ability to remember patterns. "

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2970607
01/22/19 01:32 AM
01/22/19 01:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
sorry for writing so much, but I feel I have to explain myself. as mentioned, i have learned all positions of the Dorian and am starting on Mixolydian. What i did not say, which i should have, is that when i learned the first 5 shapes of the dorian, I jammed for hours on various dorian jam tracks. I did this to try to understand the mood and colour of this mode. That is my end goal, is to understand what this tool does and how it sounds. i should have said that but I thought it would be apparant. I am not memorizing the shapes for the sole sake of recalling them, but for the sake of recalling and applying them based on the colour they provide contextually.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2970661
01/22/19 12:23 PM
01/22/19 12:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,358
p90jr Online content
MP Hall of Fame Member
p90jr  Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,358
Afraid to wade into this but it's timely as a friend just asked me to clarify the "modes" thing after a couple of different teachers have him confused.

I told him that I learned them when I was 12 and quickly scrambled them up, forgot the names and integrated them into my playing and never thought about it again. But to clarify it the way my dad clarified it to me (he was a music teacher with a Master's Degree in music and a jazz saxophonist):

Lydian: Major scale with a sharp 4th. play over Maj 7 and Major chords... that raised 4th can either sound dissonant or sophisticated based on how well you apply it...

Ionian: Major scale, play over Major and Major 7 chords.

Mixolydian: Ionian with a flat 7, play over 7 chords

Dorian: Mixolydian with a flat 3, play over minor chords but more in progressions that use the iim and then resolve to the im.

Aeollian: minor scale, or Dorian with a flat 6. Play over minor chords

Phrygian: Aeolian with a flat 2. Play over minor7 chords... especially to make things sound "Flamenco!"

Locrian: Phrygian with a flat 5. Play over m7b5 chords, in jazz songs using the minor ii v i progression

So right away, my buddy was able to dismiss worrying about some of them at the moment because he isn't a jazzer and is mostly interesting in blues rock. And he asked "why don't they just tell you what chords/progressions you use them over?"

I don't know.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: p90jr] #2970687
01/22/19 02:02 PM
01/22/19 02:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Thanks p90jr. That was helpful Don't be afraid to wade in. Everyone is friendly here and trying to help.

Thanks

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2970693
01/22/19 02:42 PM
01/22/19 02:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,358
p90jr Online content
MP Hall of Fame Member
p90jr  Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,358
on Dorian... I'm remembering as a kid reading Ritchie Blackmore saying "just play your solos in the Dorian mode... they love that..." so I called the local high school radio station and requested "Smoke On The Water" (they played it a lot... and it was already a bit of a cliché by then) just to tape it and examine the solo... and he plays some sophisticated lines in there that most guys who cover it don't quite seem to get... I can't exactly remember and I don't have a guitar at the moment, but he isn't just playing in the G minor blues scale upon inspection, I think it might actually be C Dorian over the songs G minor... I'll dig into that later at home.

just as an example of its use.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: p90jr] #2970940
01/23/19 03:00 PM
01/23/19 03:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
@Music Fusion, you are not being difficult at all. As a teacher, I like to make sure my students are understanding what they are doing and not just memorizing notes. You seem to be at a point where you understand the modes and are now memorizing the different locations on the neck for the different keys. IMO, that is the correct way to do it. Understanding....then memorizing. Keep it up and keep asking questions.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: p90jr] #2970988
01/23/19 05:01 PM
01/23/19 05:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,349
CEB Offline
10k Club
CEB  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,349
Originally Posted By: p90jr
on Dorian... I'm remembering as a kid reading Ritchie Blackmore saying "just play your solos in the Dorian mode... they love that..." so I called the local high school radio station and requested "Smoke On The Water" (they played it a lot... and it was already a bit of a cliché by then) just to tape it and examine the solo... and he plays some sophisticated lines in there that most guys who cover it don't quite seem to get... I can't exactly remember and I don't have a guitar at the moment, but he isn't just playing in the G minor blues scale upon inspection, I think it might actually be C Dorian over the songs G minor... I'll dig into that later at home.

just as an example of its use.


Or just play natural minor with a flat sharp 6. smile

I know why guitarist often get all Gaga over ecclesiastical modes because they want magical patterns that they can plug and chug but I don't think it is a real good way to think about compositional and melodic elements. Modes don't explain variances of movement around tonal centers .... And I'm Byzantine Orthodox. grin

The thing about Orthodox chant is there are no fixed keys. Tonal centers vary according to the singers. There are no instrumental musicians locking us into set frequencies/keys. Modes/tones ect.... Become central. Byzantine notation doesn't tell you what note to sing but rather how the next note moves in relation to the last note. It's a different world musically. My church doesn't even have a piano in it.

Last edited by CEB; 01/23/19 08:17 PM.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!
So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: CEB] #2971051
01/23/19 07:47 PM
01/23/19 07:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
There's a great deal of misunderstanding, even amoungst authorities, on the development & history of modes.
As they were created in the 1st place in Greek era culture, in how the developed during the Middle Ages (basically their tranliteration into European music got them all turned around).

I'll reiterate this a last time.
There are many ways to study them & develop their use.
One way is to concentrate on using them as exercises to develop music.
That can be interesting, mostly as an exercise that may become interesting music...or may not & just remain an exercise.
Another is to develop music that happens to have qualities associated w/any mode(s).

To me the best way to get the gist of anything is to reduce it to it's simplest qualities & add to that as one learns.
Therefore I view all scales/modes/etc, no matter what culture they're from, as variants on the major scale (which in fact is how the modern modes we generally use are defined).
You have the basic melodic notes involved in a tune, the "color" notes that elaborate the music & the harmonic notes that frame those.

Concentrate on what you want the music to sound like & express.
Then consider what went into that.
It will sort itself out.




d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2971218
01/24/19 12:59 PM
01/24/19 12:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,081
Northern California
Larryz Online content
10k Club
Larryz  Online Content
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,081
Northern California
+1 Once you know the major Ionian scale mode, you know all of the 7 modes as they are contained in the pattern. It's just a matter of knowing your tonal center starting point and the octave pattern that is contained. The pattern can be broken down into 7 sections or into 5 sections. They will allow you to play [across] the fretboard. By linking them together you will be able to play [along] the fretboard. Learning as a pattern of dots will allow you to play beyond your technical knowledge of notes and intervals.

The section charts can be found by googling on "guitar modes'. After learning the pattern of dots, you can go back and learn the notes and intervals and use the intervals to learn your chords as well. When you 1st learned the C chord (or any other) someone or some book showed it to you as a pattern of dots. All of the chords in the books are broken down this way. Some include the fingerings and some include the intervals. Eventually you learn both. There is memorization involved. The important thing the modes do (by shifting the major scale using the tonal center of the new mode, is provide your ear with the new sounds of the intervals (which shift automatically with each mode).


My book defines the genres/sounds created by the various modes as follows:

Ionian major scale, Dorian rock, Phrygian flamenco, Lydian jazz, Mixolydian classical, Aeolian relative minor scale, Locrian folk...

This is not to lock you in, just might give you an idea of how to [pick] on one to improvise over a selected song or backing track. I get a lot of use out of the Pentatonic scales swapping them in and out with the major and minor scale modes.

It's a fun lifetime journey of music study and theory. Some very good players I know, never use any of it. I find the mode studies a great tool that you can go away from and return back to. If it pleases, by all means continue! cool


Take care, Larryz
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Larryz] #2971328
01/24/19 06:16 PM
01/24/19 06:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
I think I have come a very long way.

It began on this board, where I leaner how to play the pentatonic stuff. Then , it continued as I started getting into modes. It has not been an easy journey for me, but it was very rewarding- and still is.

It is not in my fabric to learn something, outside of its context or outside of the possibilities the new learning brings. so, for any of you who may think I am trying to learn "quickly" and not thoughtfully, let me assure you that it is not the case.

Everyone learns differently, and I prefer to get a handle on the mechanics first, because once I do that, I can put my mind to letting myself absorb the feel and application of certain approaches - be it modes, or whatever.

Everything I have learned here, has been augmented by countless hours of my applying it to jam tracks and really trying to listen to what a particular mode can do.

For a long time- as many go you know, i was stuck on the "concept: of a mode. But now, i am beyond it. So I plan to memorize, and the experiment and apply each mode. Right now, i can basically say that i am comfortable with the dorian mode. I know how to finger it, i know what it sounds like and I have done a lot of experimentation with it.

I am now back to the mixolydian. I plan to do the same as i did with Dorian. Learn all the fingering and then spend a lot of time using it on jam tracks. I eventually want to do each and ever mode this way- even the stranger ones.

So far i have done the major scale, the dorian and now i am on the mixolydian mode. Any thoughts on which modes I should do after mixciolydian? In a way, it won't matter, as i will be doing all of them, but I'd rather tackle the ones that are more frequently used in modern music first.

Thanks for hanging in with me. When i said that perhaps i was a difficult student, i did not say that sarcastically. I actually meant it, because I learn a certain way and sometimes that can be challenging to those doing the teaching.





Last edited by Music Fusion; 01/24/19 06:18 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2971481
01/25/19 01:28 PM
01/25/19 01:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
I hope
(& suspect, hopefully grin )
that you can discern the weeds from the chaff here.

Quotes that refer you
to
other explications of info
are but deeper morasses of what you can already
& have already found.

Play music
& listen to what it tells you.
As A-String said, understand what yer yerself doing
Roll back to dig it deeper.
Hear what you hear.


Best of, MF, & keep us informed !


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2972846
01/31/19 04:11 PM
01/31/19 04:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Still going back and forth between playing all positions of the Dorian and then playing all positions f the Mixolydian, using different backing tracks. I am getting pretty fluid at playing them.

That's where I am at. Going to pick another mode to learn soon. Just have to make sure I'm not going to forget what i have been playing, but it has become pretty easy, especially when playing to the backing tracks.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2972888
01/31/19 06:35 PM
01/31/19 06:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,081
Northern California
Larryz Online content
10k Club
Larryz  Online Content
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,081
Northern California
Keep up the good work Music Fusion! cool


Take care, Larryz
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Larryz] #2973237
02/02/19 11:47 AM
02/02/19 11:47 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
?


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2973326
02/02/19 05:48 PM
02/02/19 05:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi. Thank-you. I am drilling these modes into my playing. I don't find it useful to memorize the fingering, although it is necessary. What I am finding more useful is simply playing them over and over against backing tracks. Slowly, this practice is starting to help me know the modes rather than trying to remember them. But I am staying with just the two modes for now until I am comfortable that i know them without having to think about them.

Lastly, I found this santana type backing track the other day that did not specify which mode to play. So I just began soling without any regard to modes/scales and the like. It was more just from feel. Surprisingly, it worked out very well and boosted my confidence in a way.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2973337
02/02/19 06:43 PM
02/02/19 06:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
STOP !
Do Not Drill.
Do not force anything into what you play.

Music is a social communicative tool.
It is not a system of rules nor a preset science.
Music is for communicating w/ other ppl.
Look 4 the ways 2 communicate.


If you think you need to modify how you communicate, OK but quit tryna BE CORRECT !

Do U think that Luis de Milán or Jimi Hendrix thought much abt BEING CORRECT ?!

----------------------
Sorry to yell but some shthds here got me stirred up.

Yer a player.
Keep playing.
Do not worry abt what you play if it gets across what you intend !


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2973447
02/03/19 01:00 PM
02/03/19 01:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
d. I appreciate how you always warn me about falling into robotic, mechanical traps and how so contrary it is to musical creativity. I get it because I was you (and still am), in that regard. I would take every opportunity to warn other musicians, even chastise them if the truth be known, about relying so heavily on sheet music (for example) and how sheet music tried to ascribe a scientific representation to something that ought to be left to be solely a creative endeavour.

Part of me still believes that and if push came to shove, i would choose playing by ear (which i have done all my life), over playing by formula.

But what i am doing now, with this excersizes and "drills" is to hone my skills. I am already starting to find that i could break free from them and start soling on my own in ways I never could in the past.

So, this theoretical,"drilling" phase I am in is actually just making me a stronger player and aiding me in being creative. But sometimes it feels like excersices. i get that.

Like I said, your perspective is a valid one, so i never find myself dismissing anything I read here. it is always well thought out, albeit from different approaches.

Bear in mind that my first love is songwriting. 99% of the songs I have written, were based on my not having much of a clue as to the musical "rules" It was just what i felt at the time and when what you feel comes out in musical form, it could never be wrong.

Last edited by Music Fusion; 02/03/19 01:03 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2974419
02/08/19 12:50 AM
02/08/19 12:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Not sure how sheet music fits in as a trap or anything other than another tool idk

But I take yer point abt the necessity of sheer physical exercises as long as the exercise does not become the end result.

I've heard some of yer stuff & yer good.
Maybe you should consider a latter-day Bach thing wherein you create a series of etudes that start w/yer explorations of various modes & explore the melodic kernels that you find therin.

Been v busy lately but I'm still looking at that list of songs you posted to see how they fit in w/various modes.
-------------------
Perhaps this
Originally Posted By: d

Do not worry abt what you play if it gets across what you intend !

should've been written thus:
Do not worry abt what you play or how you play it
so much as the effect is has on listeners.

wave


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2975069
02/11/19 01:33 PM
02/11/19 01:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Thanks for the suggestion. Here is where I am at.

I have fully learned the following:

Major scale
Pentatonics
Dorian


I am now starting Mixolydian.

But what i have been doing, which I am finding both interesting and assisting me in helping to remember the modes and their sounds, is switching between Dorian, Mixolydian, Major and Pentatonics as I play over various backing tracks.

The reason this is helping, is, of course, not all modes/scales will sound good over the backing tracks. So, this is what I am doing

1. Switch between modes/scales on the fly
2. Discern what modes/scales sound good over what backing track and which do not fit.

I also try to leave the modes/scales approach and I also throw in just some "from the gut" playing (d would be proud of me ;-)). And this is also helping me to play more from my ear 9which i am used to), than from pre contrived approaches.

It's fun for sure. My goal is to fully learn the mixilydian and then keep growing my modes until i know all of them. this will take some time- especially if I want to study what they sound like and what they do, but in the end, I think it will be worth doing it.

People who hear me play now are amazed that i can devour the entire neck and stay in key.

Last edited by Music Fusion; 02/11/19 01:34 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2975079
02/11/19 02:42 PM
02/11/19 02:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,356
Los Angeles
S
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Scott Fraser  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
S

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,356
Los Angeles
Something that might speed the process is to know that the Dorian & Mixolydian are exactly the same, except for the thirds. Dorian being minor & Mixolydian being major. Which to use is dependent on the whether the underlying chord is major or minor.


Scott Fraser
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Scott Fraser] #2975093
02/11/19 03:45 PM
02/11/19 03:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,358
p90jr Online content
MP Hall of Fame Member
p90jr  Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,358
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Something that might speed the process is to know that the Dorian & Mixolydian are exactly the same, except for the thirds. Dorian being minor & Mixolydian being major. Which to use is dependent on the whether the underlying chord is major or minor.


Yeah, I had hoped the approach I shared above would help with realizing that... or with all of the modes and when to use them.

Lydian: Major scale with a sharp 4th. play over Maj 7 and Major chords... that raised 4th can either sound dissonant or sophisticated based on how well you apply it...

Ionian: Major scale, play over Major and Major 7 chords.

Mixolydian: Ionian with a flat 7, play over 7 chords

Dorian: Mixolydian with a flat 3, play over minor chords but more in progressions that use the iim and then resolve to the im.

Aeollian: minor scale, or Dorian with a flat 6. Play over minor chords

Phrygian: Aeolian with a flat 2. Play over minor7 chords... especially to make things sound "Flamenco!"

Locrian: Phrygian with a flat 5. Play over m7b5 chords, in jazz songs using the minor ii v i progression

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: p90jr] #2975130
02/11/19 06:14 PM
02/11/19 06:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Thank-you. I actually printed out your guide p90jr but I also like experimenting as sometimes reading it and doing it trial and error helps me to remember it more than one way.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2975223
02/12/19 01:45 AM
02/12/19 01:45 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
...I have fully learned the following:
Major scale
Pentatonics
Dorian...

Wow---I myself have never fully learned anything ! grin


Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I also try to leave the modes/scales approach and I also throw in just some "from the gut" playing (d would be proud of me ;-)).

Hey, cat, 7 things you never needa wonder abt is what I think of you ! twothumbs
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
People who hear me play now are amazed that i can devour the entire neck and stay in key.

Eat 'em up, cat !


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2975416
02/12/19 08:36 PM
02/12/19 08:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,358
p90jr Online content
MP Hall of Fame Member
p90jr  Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,358
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Thank-you. I actually printed out your guide p90jr but I also like experimenting as sometimes reading it and doing it trial and error helps me to remember it more than one way.


Oh yeah, experimenting is where it's at... and as you learn this stuff enough to hear it in the playing of others, you'll notice the people who are really good mix it all up, put it where it probably shouldn't go and purposefully misuse them but make it sound so good!!! A common thing I hear, and I instinctively have always done, is throw in a pentatonic minor blues run in a solo that otherwise uses a major scale... but when I would do that in my stepdad's jazz band he'd scream at me that it was wrong!!! I hear it in rock solos all the time, and it's very cool.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: p90jr] #2975596
02/13/19 10:08 PM
02/13/19 10:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
I think what P90 is describing might also be considered the ongoing evolution of style / form / & cruel K-RULES !


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2976756
02/20/19 09:54 PM
02/20/19 09:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi folks- I'm still at it.

I'm making progress but it tasks lot of patience.

I've learned that you really have to learn and internalize a mode before moving on to another ,mode. I was finding that i'd be fluid in the Dorian mode and then tackle the Mixolydian. But once I did that, i was shaky on the dorian again.

So, I must have played the dorian a million times now and I have internalized it. So now i am safely omg the Mixolydian- which i imagine i should play a million times.

But I'm high;y motivated and I am being musical as I learn these things and then start from them.

I'll update you as I go. Thanks!

Also understanding what harmonial contexts fit behind the two modes, which is good.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2976871
02/21/19 03:55 PM
02/21/19 03:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Also understanding what harmonial contexts fit behind the two modes, which is good.

& kinda the point, eh ? cool

Yer next /eventual assignment will be finding new contexts for them that still maintain musical integrity...but take that as it comes rather than pushing it.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2977539
02/26/19 02:48 AM
02/26/19 02:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Well, since you guys have been so patient with me, i thought I'd post and example of me playing a solo using the Mixolydian mode. A few notes:

My goal in this excursive was simply to play the entire length of the neck without stopping while remaining in the mixolydian mode throughout. I was not trying too be "musical". I was just trying to get fluid with hitting all the notes.

It sounds great when i actually use this mixolydian or dorian mode to be musical. When i do that, I am playing more thoughtfully to a backing track. What you are hearing on this track is not that; it's simple stepping through the modal notes throughout the neck.

About 4 months ago, I thought I'd never understand what a mode was, let alone learn how to play it. Again...thanks for hanging in with me. Here is the link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gcX4CGbRCO-GNrJlL_uuIAj8o2n-7adc/view?usp=sharing

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2977571
02/26/19 12:33 PM
02/26/19 12:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Coming along well! Something else I'd suggest is working on your phrasing. Right now, you are playing the notes in order, one after the other. Try picking three of those notes and just moving around between them using different timings. Try skipping a few notes here and there. Try different groupings of notes (like four notes then a rest, then four more etc.)

Now that you know which notes are available, mess around with them. Change them up. You are progressing well. Keep it up!

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2977574
02/26/19 12:35 PM
02/26/19 12:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
To be clear, I understand that you were walking through the notes to know where they are. But I want you to be able to grab them, randomly as well. Also, notes that you stop on can have a big affect. Like adding drama to, lightening or resolving a bar.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2977577
02/26/19 12:49 PM
02/26/19 12:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Craig- you are dead on. When I play the mode musically, what i mean is that I go with feel, often times experimenting and purposefully skipping notes, or jumping to notes within that box or into the next box that I ordinarily would not do. What happens when I do this, with a musical intent, is that some great surprises emerge that sound great and not at all robotic and some mistakes emerge, that I also learn from..

I am not at the point yet where I randomly change between a particular mode and some other approach, easily. However, i have tried switching between Dorian and pentatonic, Mixalydian and pentatonic, Dorian and Major, as well as pentatonic and major, and I am able to do so with varying results. This is where the deep learning is coming in. Because when i do this type of interchange, I am beginning to learn what works and what doesn't.

I once was in New York city in a cab, and I asked the cab driver how they managed to drive each day and avoid accidents- because it was crazy driving there.

He attributed it to 2 things:

1. Having an accident is very costly because it keeps you of the road for a while- so cabbies are very aware of that and are motivated to avoid accidents at all costs.

2. He described driving a cab as being a fish in an aquarium. He said that when you watch fish in an aquarium, they just instinctively know how and when to move for other fish or around obstacles. He said aa a cabbie, you develop that ability.

In keeping with point 2, I want to be able to instinctively know what works and what doesn't. But there is a lot of learning to do.

1. i plan to learn at least one more mode before going on to step 2 below.-Right now I know the Dorian and Mixolydian modes, the pentatonic scale and the major scale. And I know them throughout the entire neck. I want to add one more mode- for now.

2. Then I want to practice simply playing each mode and scale back to back to appropriate backing tracks. this is important to me because although I know each of the tools I mentioned fluidly, I don't trust myself entirely to not get mixed up between Dorian fingering and Mi=xoluydian, for example. So playing every tool i know back to back, will help me .

3. Doing interchanges. Meaning- switching between tools on the fly and learning when it is appropriate relative to the harmonic contexts (backing tracks).

All this will take a ton of time but I am dedicating a lot of effort and it is becoming more and more fun.

If you have any suggestions, as always, i am open to them.

And, by the way, i could not have done this without your help and the help of people on this board.

Last edited by Music Fusion; 02/26/19 12:52 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2977621
02/26/19 07:34 PM
02/26/19 07:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi guys:

So here is another example. This time, I used the Dorian mode over top of a Santana backing track. This time, i went through the entire mode up the neck. But on the second pass, i did what Craig suggested and improvised by skipping notes and not moving religiously and down the mode, as I did in the first pass.

The second pass sounds a little more interesting musically, but it's a bit sloppy cause I'm not quite ready for that yet, but it does seem to show how the solo becomes more interesting as you use the mode notes more randomly.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X1jdLq3s28e0vo52RCli3buhHz4Sblve/view?usp=sharing


Last edited by Music Fusion; 02/26/19 07:35 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2977689
02/27/19 12:46 PM
02/27/19 12:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
That is coming along really well. Good job!

There are things to note, changing modes and scales, during a solo, CAN make for some interesting sounds, but 90 percent of the time, solos tend to pick one and use it. Secondly, some of the modes are ones you will never use. I've found there are two or three for each style of music (Some overlap, of course).

As for remembering the fingering, this goes back to what I was trying to teach at the beginning. Play the C Major scale (A minor scale on the 5th fret only start and stop on C). All of your modes can be played using this pattern. Then, you can change the key by moving it. If you learn the two main patterns and where they connect, you will then have all the modes and all the keys with only two patterns.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2977708
02/27/19 03:07 PM
02/27/19 03:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: A String
Coming along well! Something else I'd suggest is working on your phrasing. Right now, you are playing the notes in order, one after the other. Try picking three of those notes and just moving around between them using different timings. Try skipping a few notes here and there. Try different groupings of notes (like four notes then a rest, then four more etc.)

Now that you know which notes are available, mess around with them. Change them up. You are progressing well. Keep it up!
Originally Posted By: A String
Also, notes that you stop on can have a big affect. Like adding drama to, lightening or resolving a bar.

thu twothumbs like


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2977712
02/27/19 03:26 PM
02/27/19 03:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I am not at the point yet where I randomly change between a particular mode and some other approach, easily. However, i have tried switching between Dorian and pentatonic, Mixalydian and pentatonic, Dorian and Major, as well as pentatonic and major, and I am able to do so with varying results. This is where the deep learning is coming in. Because when i do this type of interchange, I am beginning to learn what works and what doesn't.
-------------------------------------------
Then I want to practice simply playing each mode and scale back to back to appropriate backing tracks. this is important to me because although I know each of the tools I mentioned fluidly, I don't trust myself entirely to not get mixed up between Dorian fingering and Mixoluydian, for example. So playing every tool i know back to back, will help me .
---------------------
Doing interchanges. Meaning- switching between tools on the fly and learning when it is appropriate relative to the harmonic contexts (backing tracks).

The one thing I would stress again, is that at some point step beyond the intellectualities as you play & select the sounds you want to hear or that express what you want others to feel.
You can go back & decide how to analyze stuff afterward.

In any situation, many things might work/be correct/etc but what you express will be what makes you special.
Sometimes that might even be contrary to what's "correct".

Consider the intro of this song


Or the chord change [I #V ] used in the refrain of this one

[/i]
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
All this will take a ton of time but I am dedicating a lot of effort and it is becoming more and more fun.
That's great !
& that's why teams are better than the alternatives !
If you have any suggestions, as always, i am open to them.

And, by the way, i could not have done this without your help and the help of people on this board.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2977759
02/27/19 09:04 PM
02/27/19 09:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi folks. Thanks for the continued encouragement and advice.

Craig: I need to think about what you suggested. I'm not sure I know how to do what you are suggesting. But I'm intrigued cause it sounds efficient. Let me think about it. Or if you can list the first few notes I'd be playing an on what strings, that would help. I am sure you've done this before, but my learning is evolving and some things weren't and probably still won't click immediately.

I take your point about switching between modes throughout a solo. I found it sometimes works when I am switching between the minor pentatonic and them moving it all back 3 frets. But most of the time, when changing between modes, it doesn't work. But that has also been part of my learning. Sometimes, you have to burn your hand on the stove before you know not to touch it..lol

I also recognize the value of passing, or using silence and skipping notes. Can add a lot of interest and as someone said, sense of drama. My moving swiftly through the mode, was simply to become fluid with the mode. Buy in no way do i envision it as as good approach to, soloing. It would sound robotic and simply passing through the motions.

And d- yes, sometimes just going with your gut is best. I think my ear is better trained, and perhaps my movements are better honed to be able to move with more confidence and with better results.

The next mode I'd like to learn is the one that is used to sound "Flamingo ish". Not sure which that is but I am nowhere ready for it. Maybe I will make it a point to concentrate on the most useful modes in terms of usability and learn the rest in good time but not as an immediate thing.

I'll keep checking in and practising.

Thanks to everyone. I'm nowhere near as clueless as I was when i first posted to this thread...lol


Last edited by Music Fusion; 02/27/19 09:10 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2977767
02/27/19 10:10 PM
02/27/19 10:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Well, MF, I think yer best bet to sound flamingoish would be to study this song



Or maybe this one


Hey MF, we know yer far from clueless even before ya came to visit us !
"Airbody" can make a typo.

But if ya wanna dig into flamenco, ya might wanna start by playing a [!V bIII bII I] progression & see where that takes you.
I'm not sure there's a single "flamenco mode" since tunes vary sometimes on the 3rd & otherwise.

Consider these perfs
This version specifically chosen to highlight that not all great guitarists are who we think they be.


A similar kinda sorta


More here...hear ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco#Structure


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2977853
02/28/19 02:12 PM
02/28/19 02:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
@ Craig

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting I play the following

Low e string 8th fret
A string 5th fret
A string 7th fret
D string 5th fret
D string 7th fret
G string 5th fret (which is a C)

Is this right?

If so, how does this help me realize modes in different places? I'm sorry..I know we have been through this but obviously, i still don't get it.

Thanks for your patience.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2977867
02/28/19 03:30 PM
02/28/19 03:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Play/learn this:

-------------------------------------5--7--8--
----------------------------5--6--7-----------
-------------------4--5--7--------------------
-------------5--7-----------------------------
----5--7--8-----------------------------------
-8--------------------------------------------

This is the C Major scale. Now, if you start on the 5th fret, low E and play the same notes, it suddenly becomes the A minor scale. Why is that? Well, let's look at the notes...

Starting on the 8th fret, low E, we have a C note. Following the TAB, we have C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C. C,D,E,F,G,A,B are the notes in the C major scale. That gives us the C Major sound.

So, why is it, if we start on the A, we suddenly have an A Minor scale? Well, starting on the 6th note of the scale (the A), gives us the 6th mode which is the "Aeolian" also known as the Natural Minor scale.

Starting on different points within this scale will give us different modes. So... C Ionian (Major scale), D Dorian in D, E Phrygian in E, F Lydian in F, G Mixolydian in G, A Aeolian (Minor) in A and B Locrian in B.

So, you can see that you get all of the modes in one key each, depending on where you start. But you ask, this only gives me one key for each mode. True, until you move the whole pattern up or down. So now try this:

-------------------------------------6--8--9--
----------------------------6--7--8-----------
-------------------5--6--8--------------------
-------------6--8-----------------------------
----6--8--9-----------------------------------
-9--------------------------------------------

Now we are playing the C# Major scale. Not only did moving the C to a C# change the scale from C Major to C# Major, it also moved all of the modes. So now the modes we can play with these notes are:
C# Major, D# Dorian, E# Phrygian, F# Lydian, G# Mixolydian, A# Aeolian (Minor) and B# Locrian.

Slide the whole thing up another fret so we are starting on the 10th fret, Low E and we get this:
D,E,F#,G,A,B,C#. So...the modes follow the same notes:
D Ionian (Major), E Dorian, F# Phrygian, G Lydian, A Mixolydian, B Aeolian (Minor) and C# Locrian.

This can be moved up and down the neck to get ANY mode you want. There is also a VERY common "second Position" for this major/minor scale that holds the same notes. If you memorize it as well (I can post it later), you will be able to play pretty much all spots up and down the neck and only have to memorize the two positions.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2977869
02/28/19 03:33 PM
02/28/19 03:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Now...rewatch the example of the modes within this scale, that I did the video of and think about moving it up and down the neck:

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2977896
02/28/19 08:17 PM
02/28/19 08:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Craig..scary- but what you wrote made sense to me this time. So I understand that using that same fingering and moving it about, causes you to access the Ionian from whatever note you start on. So if you start the pattern on the low E starting on the 4th fret, you are starting with a G# Ionian. Now, following this, if I move two frets up, same fingering, i am playing the A#Dorian two frets up from that, i am playing C Phrygian etc.

Right so far?

If so, I guess I have a few questions:

When i learned the Dorian mode, I learned all 5 fingerings on the neck. This allowed me to remain in Dorian mode the whole time, as long as i stayed true to the fingerings. So If I started on the 3rd fret low String, I'd be in G Dorian, and I would remain in G Dorian, as long as I stayed true to the five positions, relative to each other.

So, using the method you suggested, starting on the 3rd fret on the low e string (G note), I could move two frets forward, and I would be in the A Dorian mode.

Now, in the previous method I had learned, starting from the 5th fret on the low E string (A note), I would launch forward using the five dorian positions i learned. This would keep in in A dorian throughput the neck, provided I stayed true to the fingerings of the 5 positions.

So now the method you just taught me (or re-taught me lol), I start on the low E string 5th fret (A note), and use the fingering you used up top
-------------------------------------5--7--8--
----------------------------5--6--7-----------
-------------------4--5--7--------------------
-------------5--7-----------------------------
----5--7--8-----------------------------------
-8--------------------------------------------

and I would be in A Dorian, but staying within the first 5 frets of the neck.

So I sort of understand why your system works, but i am trying to think about it while comparing it to what i have been doing.

The system you described would not take me in the same mode (in this example A Dorian) throughout the whole neck would it?It would place me in A Dorian within the confines of the first five frets. Correct?


Last edited by Music Fusion; 02/28/19 08:20 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2977928
02/28/19 11:45 PM
02/28/19 11:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
SOOO close! If you start on the 4th fret, you are playing the G# Ionian. If you start on the 6th, it's the A# Ionian.

Where you are missing out is that the starting note determines the mode. So playing that scale on the 4th fret gives you the G# Ionian. it also gives you:
Dorian in A#, Phrygian in B#, Lydian in C#; Mixolydian D#, Aeolian/minor E# and Locrian in F.

Move up two frets and you get:
Ionianm/major in A#, Dorian in B#, Phrygian in C, Lydian in D#; Mixolydian E#, Aeolian/minor F and Locrian in G.

Move it up to the 12th fret and you get:
Ionian/Major in E, Dorian in F#, Phrygian in G#, Lydian in A; Mixolydian B, Aeolian/minor C# and Locrian in D#.

Basically, pick a mode and then use that pattern in the correct spot to play the mode you want in the key you want.

As I mentioned, there is a second position that ties in with the first and allows you to play the entire neck. But...Let's learn this first position and what it means...

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2978009
03/01/19 03:01 PM
03/01/19 03:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Sorry Craig. I don't think I said what I was intending to clearly.

I know that if I start at the 6th fret (low E string), I would be in A#Ionian.

But what i was trying to say is that if I start of the 4th Fret (low e string). I'd be starting in G# Ionian. Using that as my anchor point (meaning, i already started), if I move up two frets, I'd be in A# Dorian. Correct?

I do realize that if I started on on the 6 fret (Low e string), I'd be in A# Ionian.

Before we go to the second position thing, i want to really understand how what you said works differently than the 5 positions I have been playing through.

Maybe this example might form the question I have.

Someone is playing an AC DC type dong that basically starts on A and does a chord progression from there.

I take out my Mixolydian mode. And I start on the 5th fret (low E string), and begin moving through the 5 Mixolydian positions i learned). This eventually takes me to the 15th Fret on the low e string to exit my final position.

So, I have been soloing in Mixolydian throughout.

Using the system you are teaching me, how would I proceed in the same circumstance?

Thanks for your patience Craig. I think we are close to my understanding.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978013
03/01/19 03:34 PM
03/01/19 03:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
If I may...
Sometimes getting tied up in specifics gets confusing.
I think it might be good to return to the basic principals of this concept (which I thought were already understood, in general).
That gets us passed all the confusion of note names, fingering & string location, which I think are where the confusion lies here.

The common modes in modern European-derived music are all variants on the major scale that simply start on the different intervals (easiest thought of by number rather than note name).
Starting on the 1 of the major scale = Ionian.
Staring on the 2 = Dorian;
on the 3 = Phrygian;
on the 4 = Lydian;
the 5 = Mixolydian;
the 6 = Aeolian;
the M7 = Locrian.

The technical name for any group of notes used in a piece of music (which are & always will be of far less significance than the music itself) are determined by whatever the tonic of the music is.
So if you examine what notes are being played (not by name but by their position in the major scale) you can determine what mode you may be using.
Fingering position on the neck is irrelevant except in terms of what key yer in; same goes for what pitches/note names are involved.

That, I think, is the clearest, easiest way to look at this question...but excuse me for butting in, esp if I missed something in the discussion.



d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2978036
03/01/19 05:23 PM
03/01/19 05:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Well...The second position for the A minor scale is on the 12 fret:
-------------------------------------------------------------12--13--15
-------------------------------------------------12--13--15--
------------------------------------------12--14--
-------------------------------12--14--15-------------
-------------------12--14--15---------------------
8--9--12--13--15--------------------------------

From here, you can connect in a bunch of places (10th fret on the high e, for example.) So now, you have, with only two patterns, two locations to play the Minor scale. But, the 12th fret is the same as the open strings with first fret being the same as 13th. So, the second position can be played down on the open strings/first few frets. Also, the fifth fret (first position) can be played an octave up on the 17th fret. So, now we have four location that span the entire neck and only two patterns.

Next step, moving them to change the key. So again...ANY of those two patterns, 4 locations, can be shifted up or down to change the root note...AND, if you start onm a different note in that scale, you produce the relevant mode.

Two patterns, four locations, every mode covering the whole neck.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2978044
03/01/19 06:18 PM
03/01/19 06:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
I again point to the idea that, while there are many ways of approaching the gtr neck & CB is a venerable teacher, the easiest way to look at things is the way that gives one the widest view.
That doesn't put one approach against the other(s) but does, perhaps, take one a step away from formulae.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2978051
03/01/19 07:26 PM
03/01/19 07:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
I need time with wha Craig wrote. As d also points out, there are alternative ways to accomplish this.

But although I am very comfortable now with the 5 positions I mentioned, I really want to force myself to understand Craig's approach. That might get me closer to having a better appreciation for what is happening under the hood.

Give me some time with this gents. It's a bit of a mind twist for me, but one worth pursuing for sure.

btw- my name is Charles

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978052
03/01/19 07:26 PM
03/01/19 07:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
a mind twist even thought I have come very close to understanding it, and have understood some of it. Just need to turn it over in my mind and on my guitar,

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978055
03/01/19 07:41 PM
03/01/19 07:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Hey, cool, Cholly ! grin
I'm Darryl Weaver. ["...uh, who ?" facepalm ]

Note, I'm never contradicting what CB suggests.
I'm pointing out that the easiest way to get a grip on an idea is to look at it in its simplest form, which here, I think, is that modes are simply the variant shifts of the basic major scale.
If one forgets abt the mode names, note names, the fretboard positions & all that, the idea is really simple.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978057
03/01/19 07:55 PM
03/01/19 07:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
I need to study this further but I just noticed this.

If I do Craig's method and I start on the 12th fret low E, it is identical to the 4th position of the 5 position approach.

So, it looks like we are doing the same thing, however Craig's method finds the notes by moving in reverse, while the approach I was using finds the very same notes, but moving forwardly. At least, in this one instance.

I'm stopping there for the moment. my mind hurts...lol

Last edited by Music Fusion; 03/01/19 07:55 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978063
03/01/19 08:42 PM
03/01/19 08:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
My approach is simply geared toward understanding the modes and using them, right away. It allows you to only have to learn two patterns so it's VERY simple to do. After this point, I usually delve into what is going on but we are sort of doing things in reverse. Either way, ANYTHING that helps you "get it" and improve your playing, is a great thing.

I'd also like to stress that, although we are approaching it differently, D and I have the same end goal and are speaking on the same level. We are just taking different roads. It's important that, if you are struggling with one idea, to look at others as well. D's method may be the one that does the trick. Either way...we are happy to continue helping and answering questions. You are coming along well. Keep it up!

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2978087
03/01/19 11:24 PM
03/01/19 11:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Don't worry guys. as long as you don't mind telling me in different ways, i don't mind hearing it in different ways. It actually helps.

I think i finally get it. So I'm goignto be the voice of Craig:

He might say this:

Why are you troubling yourself memorizing the 5 positions, when, if you simply know two positions and how to get the different modes out of them by understanding that starting at a tonal centre gives you the Ionian mode and then the rest of the modes -Dorian, Phygian etc, follow from there.

So Start at the tonal Centre of the F note (Low string, 1st fret) gives you F Ionian, then move 2 frets forward, you get G Dorian etc.

Back to me

So, I think I know why you are saying this. But now, I have to get out those backing tracks and start applying your method. That will be the next logical step for me, because unless i can play what I think you are saying, I won't know for sure.

Hang in while I experiment in the next day or two

P.S.

Does this sound like I get it?

Example.... I walk into a music store and their is a guitar player playing the Major scale, starting from the C, but commencing on the E string, 5th fret.

Now, i don't know if that is the tonal centre he picked, or if he is en route from somewhere else.

So, I can say stuff like:

If you just started playing that pattern on the Low E 5th fret, you're in A Ionian

However, if you came from first starting on the Low E , 3rd fret (G), and you're presently on the low E, 5th fret, you're now in G Dorian.

And if you happen to have started at the First fret of the low E (F note), and now you are on the 5th fret (A note), you're in A Phrygian

(please say i'm correct)..lol

btw- i would never go into a music store and say that..lol

Last edited by Music Fusion; 03/01/19 11:28 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978089
03/01/19 11:30 PM
03/01/19 11:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
I just realized that you can't start from the 1st fret low E (F note), because you don't have fresh back further..lol so take my observation hypothetically

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978191
03/02/19 03:01 PM
03/02/19 03:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
I may have confused myself again.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978289
03/03/19 04:49 AM
03/03/19 04:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
LOL. Oh, no! Well, walk us though it and we'll see if we can sort it out.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2978307
03/03/19 08:21 AM
03/03/19 08:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hey Craig. I really don't know if I'm confused, which means I'm confused...lol

Is what I said in the prior posts true? Or am I off base again?

You know what would help? And I shudder to ask this because I prefer to find pout by trial and error. But there is an AC DC song that is in A. The mixolydian shapes I learned work perfectly;y for it. So, if it is A mixolydian that i need, using your method, on what fret of the low E string would I start?

I want to reverse engineer it, so that if I know where to start, I can try to determine theoretically, why that makes sense.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978351
03/03/19 02:17 PM
03/03/19 02:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
I think a really quick understanding of the neck would help out a lot here. Forgive me if I'm tell you stuff you already know.

If you play and open E chord on the neck, it contains all the notes required to make an E chord. If you slide it up the neck and barre it at the third fret, you are playing a G chord and all of the relevant notes have also changed with it.

These same rules apply with scales. So, if you play a C Major scale:
-------------------------------------5--7--8--
----------------------------5--6--7-----------
-------------------4--5--7--------------------
-------------5--7-----------------------------
----5--7--8-----------------------------------
-8--------------------------------------------

Then slide it up so all the notes are up two frets, you will be playing the D Major scale. etc.

Knowing this, we can ALSO apply the same rule to modes. So, this same pattern, only starting on the 5th fret, A String will also give us the Dorian mode that can be played over a D chord:
-------------------------------------5--7--8--10--
----------------------------5--6--7---------------
-------------------4--5--7------------------------
-------------5--7---------------------------------
----5--7--8---------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

As with the chords and Major scale, if we slide this D Dorian mode up two frets, it's key changes as well. So, starting the above mode on the 7th fret and moving all the other notes up two frets as well, will give you the Dorian mode in E. Moving all the notes up another fret will give you the Dorian mode in F. etc. etc.

Now, let's look at your "Reverse Engineering" project. Mixolydian is the fifth mode of the major scale. So the question is, which Major scale has an A for it's fifth note? The easy way to find it is by finding the root note of the Mixolydian mode in our pattern and then moving the pattern. So, in this pattern:
-------------------------------------5--7--8--
----------------------------5--6--7-----------
-------------------4--5--7--------------------
-------------5--7-----------------------------
----5--7--8-----------------------------------
-8--------------------------------------------

Fifth note in this scale is the 5th fret on the D string. That note is a G. So, if we play all the notes over a G chord, we will hear the G Mixolydian. If you want the A mixolydian, you just need to move the pattern until that 5th fret, D string, G note, is an A. Easiest location would be up two frets:
-------------------------------------7--9--10--
----------------------------7--8--9-----------
-------------------6--7--9--------------------
-------------7--9-----------------------------
----7--9--10-----------------------------------
-10--------------------------------------------

This is the D major scale. The fifth note in the D major scale is an A so, starting and stopping on the A note within this scale, and playing it over an A chord, with produce the A Mixolydian mode, sound.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2978363
03/03/19 03:50 PM
03/03/19 03:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: A String
My approach is simply geared toward understanding the modes and using them, right away. It allows you to only have to learn two patterns so it's VERY simple to do. After this point, I usually delve into what is going on but we are sort of doing things in reverse. Either way, ANYTHING that helps you "get it" and improve your playing, is a great thing.

I'd also like to stress that, although we are approaching it differently, D and I have the same end goal and are speaking on the same level. We are just taking different roads. It's important that, if you are struggling with one idea, to look at others as well. D's method may be the one that does the trick. Either way...we are happy to continue helping and answering questions. You are coming along well. Keep it up!

CB & I are both interested in the same end result: a player who can make the world a better place.
I am not a teacher per se, & have no "method".
I'm just suggesting what might lead to deeper understanding.
Deeper understanding is not something that generally occurs short term...but on the otherest hand it might flash in a second.
Based on what I've heard I think ya got a good grasp on playing well but I think you may have some sense of inferiority ( idk ) that makes you wanna be able to demonstarate yer knowledge.
Could be wrong.
'Tever.
That's what kept Miles & Hendrix apart.

No matter what ya do, Charles, or how ya do it, keep on keeping on !
cool wave


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2978406
03/03/19 05:44 PM
03/03/19 05:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hi d and Craig:

Quickly, I'll say this. I have not had time to truly absorb what Craig wrote, but I have a feeling that his last post is what i was waiting for. I think once I have had a chance to grab my guitar and study what he wrote, it will come together. I'll report back on that front.

s- no inferiority complex. lol.. The honest truth is that I am a most humble musician. I have a craving to demonstrate my knowledge to myself, so I end up understanding it...lol

It's honestly frustrating and exciting at the same time. Exciting because I have been able to develop a way to solo using various modes, scales, and techniques, but frustrating because I want to be able to support my playing by knowing how things work. I know you and Craig, through different ways, have been encouraging me to get a grasp on the concepts before exercising them, as I think that was good advice. But sometimes, bumping into walls, falling down and getting back up, is the best way to learn.

But.....I think i'm getting there.

I'm excited to circle back to the last post Craig made, because it traces how he gets to the A Mixolydian, using my example. So, when I get a chance to think through it with guitar in hand, i have a feeling I'll be taking another step forward.

I'll report back once I have had a chance to tinker around.

Thanks again guys! You are both great teachers!




Last edited by Music Fusion; 03/03/19 05:45 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978419
03/03/19 06:31 PM
03/03/19 06:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
So......If I wanted to play A Phrygian (just for sake of example)

Phrygian is the 3rd mode of the major scale. So the question is, which Major scale has an A for its 3rd note?

The answer is, starting on the 8th fret of the A string. (That note is an A) So if I played the notes starting on the 8th fret of the A string, I'd be in A Phrygian

Yes?

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978591
03/04/19 03:45 PM
03/04/19 03:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
You've nailed the concept, but got your note wrong. The 8th fret on the A string is an F. An oversight, I'm sure.

Modes are simply a major scale, played over different chords to give interesting sounds. The "Starting on" note is simply a way to better hear that difference. So, to play the A Phrygian mode, we simply have to play the F Major scale over some music in A. That "sound" when you play over chords other than the Major key, is what makes it a mode.

So, you CAN start on the F note on the 5th string, but, using my "First": pattern, you would play it starting on the 13th fret of the E string. Then, just try to start and end you phrases on the A notes to hear the sound of the Phrygian mode.

------------------------------------------10-12-13-
---------------------------------10-11-13----------
-----------------------9--10--12-------------------
----------------10--12-----------------------------
----10--12--13-------------------------------------
-13------------------------------------------------

The A notes are the 12 fret on the 5th string and the 10th fret on the 2nd string. Emphasize those notes while playing over A and you will hear the Phrygian Mode in A instead of the Major scale in F. That is what a mode is and what it does.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2978621
03/04/19 05:58 PM
03/04/19 05:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Craig- you're absolutely right. Believe it or not, I know where the notes are on the neck. I don't know why i typed A twice. I should have identified it as F.

In any event, I think we are now on the same page. Actually, my original post, which i edited but should not have, said, alternatively, you can start 13th fret of the Low E.

So, I'm with you, but i don't know why i mistakingly identified the note i was talking about as an A.

But more importantly, i think i am following your method. I'm going to do a few more of those reverse engineering excersizes just to make sure it has sunk in.

So, if I want to play E Dorian, using your method, I tell myself that Dorian is the second place of the major scale.

So then I ask myself, which major scale has E for it's second note? I think it is the low E string, 10h fret- which is a D

So if I played those notes starting on the 10th fret of the Low E string, I'd be in E Dorian

I test this out by playing to this track https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMx6ndyexO8

I think it fits but since I've been on shaky ground, I wonder if you could tell me if I'm correct?

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2978641
03/04/19 07:19 PM
03/04/19 07:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: A String
Modes are simply a major scale, played over different chords to give interesting sounds. The "Starting on" note is simply a way to better hear that difference. So, to play the A Phrygian mode, we simply have to play the F Major scale over some music in A. That "sound" when you play over chords other than the Major key, is what makes it a mode. ..............................................

Emphasize those notes while playing over A and you will hear the Phrygian Mode in A instead of the Major scale in F. That is what a mode is and what it does.

Perfect encapsulization !
There is the other way of considering modes,
the one that most theorists & players take,
which is as the varied contorted scales one gets if starting on the 1 of any of those variant modes.
That way ya gotta try learning all the different "flat this" & "# that" for 7 "different" scales & try to keep that straight. freak

But as has been expressed here,
the easiest way to get a grip (so to speak grin ) on all the different shapes is to keep in mind that
they can all be played shifting the same fingerings around & then listening to the pitches one wants to use.


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2978645
03/04/19 07:35 PM
03/04/19 07:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
Nailed it @Music Fusion! GG My friend! Now...the simple way to find the location of the scale is to look at the starting notes in one of the position, find the root of the mode you want and slide the whole scale up or down so that root note is on the right key.

So, memorize the notes and modes in the 8th fret, C Major. Then if you want to find an E Dorian, you know that the Dorian mode is the second mode and that the second note (on the 5th fret, 5th string, is a D. So, if you slide that D up two frets and take all the other notes with you, you are now in E Dorian.

I think you have this now. We are here for more questions but at this point, you are good to practice and learn the sounds of each mode. How they fit and what they work with. Have fun man...this is where you move from understanding them, theoretically, to knowing them, emotionally. Knowing how they sound and how you can use them as tools to let your inner music flow outward.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2978744
03/05/19 12:23 PM
03/05/19 12:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: A String
...this is where you move from understanding them, theoretically, to knowing them, emotionally. Knowing how they sound and how you can use them as tools to let your inner music flow outward.

rawk


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2978862
03/06/19 02:14 AM
03/06/19 02:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Thanks Craig, d and others.
I have been using your method and reverse engineering a bunch of modes, and it's actually making sense and I've tested each attempt out against a backing track, so that i know it's right.

Now...I need to circle back to the second position you were referring to. I have been sop fixated trying to get the first position and the methidolof=gy you were teaching to make sense, but now that it has, I need to go back and read what you said about the second position and how that would help to cover the entire neck.

So brace yourself for another round of my pesky questions. But first, let me re-read what you wrote so maybe I can figure it out based on what has already been written. Hang in with me guys.

I will also post something tomorrow that may make d very happy.

Stay tuned........for the next edition of the struggling lead player...;-)


Last edited by Music Fusion; 03/06/19 02:15 AM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978868
03/06/19 03:16 AM
03/06/19 03:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
okay...so here is a question.

I played in E Dorian, using the first position you taught me, by starting on the 10th fret of the Low E string

When I try to move forward to the second position, I am finding that the following pattern works:

------------------------------------------9-10-12-
---------------------------------9-10-12----------
---------------------------9---11-----------
----------------9--11--12-----------------------------
---- 9--11--12-------------------------------------
-9--10---12------------------------------------------

But isn't this different than the second position that Criag posted?

(The good news is that i have landed the first position and how to use it modally) But now i have to conquer understanding how to move to the second position when i have already exhausted the first position.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2978918
03/06/19 12:15 PM
03/06/19 12:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
... now i have to conquer understanding how to move to the second position when i have already exhausted the first position.


Keep in mind you can play the same things in multiple positions, although they will facilitate certain note selections.

I won't address Q&A abt CB's lessons but I'm always looking for felicity !
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion

I will also post something tomorrow that may make d very happy.
snax


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2978960
03/06/19 02:37 PM
03/06/19 02:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Hey d....so you have always told me to focus on how music makes you feel and how it makes the audience feel, when playing it.

So I was running through a number of scale and mode excerzices that I normally cycle through , and when it came time for me to practice the major scale, I decided to just let my emotional side play the notes, and not my rational side. So, no robotically playing notes for the sake of covering the scale in sequential order.

This resulted in my writing a song to a jam track. So I wrote the melody on my guitar, and then I replaced the guitar line with a sax. And I also wrote words. So, the words are below, which follow the sax line. But the point of this is that this emerged when I shut off my mind to the "rules" and just played what I felt. Well, not entirely true, because I couldn't do it this way had I not learned the rules on this board in the first place. But it shows what can happen when you take the ideas from different people who are trying to teach you, and combine them. So there are echoes of Craig and yourself in my strategy (not in the actual song though...I don't like you guys in that way lol)

Back on a serious note,. this song is a step back to a previous era, when music was much more simple and true (imho)

It' called Moonlight After Midnight
Here is the link, followed by the lyrics:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Gv27Pm9JK3JP5hOSKk1NN1_mro20FKG4/view?usp=sharing

Moonlight After Midnight

lyrics in (brackets) are backing vocals.

Say that you'll kiss me this evening.
Tell me you’ll always be true
Say that you never will leave me
Tell me that you’ll say I do

Cause this moonlight, made my worries disapear
And as long as you are here
I ‘ll love you

My love
You know that I do
Really need you

And now there’s moon light, after midnight

Oh love me, moon light, after midnight
It’s the best feeling of all


Say that you’ll stay here this evening
Say that this never will end

And if this would be so , my love
It just can’t be enough
There is no star above
That comes near you

And you know that it’s true, don’t you
Forever you’ver captured my heart
And if ever if we were apart
I would die
Or how I’d cry

Darling please , take hold my hand
You know we’ll make a plan
Just like when this first began

Look up at the sky
And you’ll see a sign
And it’s telling us we, were meant to be

This moonliight after midnight
This romance is sent from above
(sent from above)
We so we’ll be
Together eternally

Moonlight and midnight
A feeling that just might be ours

Last edited by Music Fusion; 03/06/19 02:43 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2979003
03/06/19 05:32 PM
03/06/19 05:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,689
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Nice track & song overall.
I like how the melody "rhymes"
(echoes itself in places, matching the lyrix)
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
...writing a song to a jam track.

Perhaps try this sometime:
just play w/no backing track
& later decide how to color the results.
You can even be free w/the rhythmic aspects.
Yer options are even more wide open!
Keep on, uh, keepin' on, Cholly !


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2979014
03/06/19 06:54 PM
03/06/19 06:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
I'm in a hurry so will listen, later. As for the second position, it is the second position for the C Major scale. If you want to change the key, you will need to slide it accordingly.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2979371
03/09/19 12:03 AM
03/09/19 12:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
M
Music Fusion Offline OP
Senior Member
Music Fusion  Offline OP
Senior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 167
Ontario
Well, you can get to the same place different ways, but someone has to show you an overall map.

Using that analogy, I discovered something I don't think would have occurred to me ( at least not for a long time), and it was because of all this talk here about modes, about tonal centres and about starting on different parts of the major scale to achieve modes.

I still like Craig's method, and I plan to keep in in my tool box of methods.

But as I am doing reverse engineering excersizes based on Craig's method, I kept harkening back to the other method whereby I was memorizing the 5 positions of various modes, such as the Dorian and mixolydian.

Then I noticed, wait a second, some of these finger patterns are also found in other modes. So a shape from the Ionian mode will find its way into the Dorian and mixolydian for example.

Then I asked myself, could it be, similar to what Craig was saying about moving the major scale around, that depending on what finger patterning shape I start on, it will result in a different mode?

Amazingly, it does. So the first pattern of the Ionian mode, for example, is also the same pattern as on the 15th fret when you play Dorian in A.

So, this unlocked a lot of possibilities for me that I have tested and worked.

So all that listening, and that teaching is leading to more learning!




Last edited by Music Fusion; 03/09/19 12:05 AM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2979419
03/09/19 11:31 AM
03/09/19 11:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
A String Offline

Admin
A String  Offline

Admin
10k Club

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,245
Ontario, Canada
The reason for this is that, while you are learning different patterns, it is still all the same notes. The reason I use C Major is that particular key has no sharps or flats. So, anytime you play C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C anywhere on the neck and over a C chord, you are playing the C Major scale. If you play the same notes over a D chord, you are playing the D Dorian mode of the C Major scale. Those notes can be played anywhere on the neck. The patterns are simply a way to help you find and remember where they all are.

Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  A String, Bluesape, myles_rose 

 
   
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1