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Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962039 12/09/18 09:28 PM
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BTW. ... thanks to all for your patience. I assure you I'm trying.

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Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962135 12/10/18 01:19 PM
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You are super close. So, let's focus on the A Major scale. You are correct in saying that, if you start playing the A Major scale on the second note, you are now playing the B Dorian. However, where you are getting confused is in the chord you are playing it over. The sound change comes when you play the same notes over a different chord. So, if you play those notes over an A chord, it sounds like a major scale. If you play it over a B chord, it will suddenly sound like the Dorian mode. If you play the same notes over a C#, it will have a Phygian sound. The reason I say to start on that note is so you have the correct root note and an idea of how to play riff using the same notes.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2962136 12/10/18 01:20 PM
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My advice is to hit open A and play the notes. Then, Hit a B note and play them again, trying to start and stop each riff on a B instead of an A.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2962156 12/10/18 03:56 PM
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Ok Craig,...now it is making sense. The reason i was not detecting any change in the character what i was playing, is that I should have playing those notes over a different set of chords.

Leave this with me and I will try what you suggested a little later and report back.

Just to be clear:

Play the same notes I played in the video, but use a backing track that starts with a B chord...right? and If I start from the 5th fret on the low E, I was be in Aeolian. If I start at the 7th fret on the low E, I would be in dorian- while playing a B chord as backing...correct?

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962158 12/10/18 04:03 PM
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I just tried it. i changed the key of the backing track so that it starts in B. So now it is
B D#m E F#

i played the same notes that i did in the video, but I started from the 7th fret (low E)

So that puts me in B Dorian correct?

I did notice a big change in the characteristic of the sound, so i guess that's a good thing. I'm not sure if all of the notes were in key though. So maybe my chord progression was not ideal for this particular mode?

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962224 12/10/18 08:20 PM
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Yes, sometimes you need a different chord progression. For example, you wouldn't play a Major scale over a minor chord progression. But...that aside, you seem to have gotten it. Now, find some backing tracks that are designed for different modes, figure out where to play it so you are in the right key and practice away. As I said, starting and ending on the root note will help you get the feel of the mode's sound.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2962246 12/10/18 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
...By the way, I skipped a very important step in my learning....

EVERY ONE SKIPS IMPORTANT STEPS ....that's what learning is all abt

BTW / FWIW / everything in music is abt what one plays in the context.
The notes that surround what you play are what defines how what that you play is heard.
TO BE CLEAR, it doesn't matter what yer intent is.
It's how it's heard.


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Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2962261 12/11/18 12:27 AM
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I think I need some time to mess around and think.

I'll report back once I have had chance to do that.

Last edited by Music Fusion; 12/11/18 01:02 AM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962270 12/11/18 01:04 AM
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This seems like a good place to get jam track s for the various modes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m37y2mlt...PESyjrgs7QUCQUo

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962353 12/11/18 04:36 PM
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Perfect! Now...just remember that you'll need to move the pattern up and down the neck to get those different starting points for C.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2962512 12/12/18 03:27 PM
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Thanks. In addition, I went to Long and McQuades yesterday and bought a book by Hal Leonard called Music Theory. It's for a guitar and has a lot of great advanced info, including a whole chapter on modes. What's nice is that it comes with sound files so I can hear what things are supposed to sound like. That, combined with what I have learned here, should help me conquer the applying modes step- which is my next step. I'll report back. It may be a bit of time because I'll be away over Christmas. I may get to this beforehand though. if I don't have a great Christmas/holiday all and thanks for your patience and expertise!!!!

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2962987 12/14/18 09:23 PM
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Have a happy holidays!

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2963088 12/15/18 04:03 PM
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Hi Craig and all. Happy holidays to you as well and thanks for everything. Turns out that the Hal Leonard book is taking me for a bit of a turn. there are many concepts in the earlier chapters (before i get to the modes chapter which is a lot later in the book), that I feel I have to go through. things like triads, intervals and the like have been unlocking other aspects of the guitar that i didn't realize existed. So, I think I'm going to take some giant steps back and work my way through the entire book.I am understanding about half of what i am reading in the book, but even that half, is making a big difference in my understanding of the guitar neck and how things can be played alternatively to how I would normally play the,

So, I think this side turn will be well worth the delay in getting back to modes. But I'llley you know where I am at along the way.

I should have dome this long ago, but better late than never.

Last edited by Music Fusion; 12/15/18 04:04 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2963195 12/16/18 12:20 PM
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Yeah, it's always difficult to know where a person is in their learning. You should certainly have a good solid understanding of scales and chords before moving into modes. But...in the end, you now have a grasp of the concept that will make it WAY easier when you come back to it. Good on you for taking the time to learn the basics before moving forward. You'll be glad you did.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2963341 12/17/18 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I should have dome this long ago, but better late than never.

@ things 2 consider which are actually the same thing.
[How's that for some math theory !?! grin ]

THE LONG & WINDING ROAD YA RODE


FUN 'LL TAKE THE LONG WAY 'ROUND
Fun will run and play / fun will play around
Longer way to run, but it's so much fun / Fun will take the longer way around
You can take a shorter cut / Yes it's quicker but
Fun will take the longer way around


Don't be a stranger, b/c we're stranger than you !
wave


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2964425 12/22/18 04:09 PM
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I hope Mu Fu sees the Jan GP.
There's a multi-page analysis of how the Mixolydian mode's been used in abt 20 diff pop tunes.

There's also a particularly striking idea from Carol Kaye (a young jazz guitarist before she hit the studio scene as a bassist.
The study of chords & arpeggios is more vital than that of scales.
Point being, I think, that while melodic lines are the basis of songs, the harmonic/chordal structure of music is an easier, more direct way to understand contextually useful variations than the use of scales alone.


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Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2964747 12/24/18 12:35 PM
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Here's and interesting vid by David Wallimann, a guy I suggested early on in this thread that would be worth looking into on YT after MF gets his modes down (just google on his name on YT). He shows moving in and out of the Pentatonic, using 3 of the 7 note modes in a 4 fret span playing across the neck, using chords and their notes while changing modes with each of the I IV V pattern blues chords, working in a 4 fret area different from your comfort zone to get the brain working.

For me the chords are more important for backing my vocals and playing rhythm guitar. The scales are more important when playing lead guitar and improvising. But, they all work together accenting those chord notes when using scales. For me, the scales provide cool reference points (a road map) and are a cool memory aid. They help me hit the correct intervals without really knowing them, understand chords when taking the time to study the intervals and help me skip the clams, so to speak LOL!



cool



cool


Take care, Larryz
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Larryz] #2966521 01/03/19 02:39 PM
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Hi folks and thank-you for not forgetting about me. Here is an update as to where I am at:

I found that I was focussing too much on the theory, and treated it like it was a course that i had to pass. Initially, this was a good approach because it forced me to do some learning rather than just fiddling around hoping that i would play the right solo notes.

But then i found that i got so fixated on learning the theory, that i started hitting brick walls in my ability to understand. So, I began jumping around from modes (theory- as discussed on this board), to different ways of finding octaves, to inversions and intervals and everything else I could find that i found intriguing.

Although the method of jumping from one thing to another was bit chaotic, it seems to be working for me because it is mixing theory with practice, with pure experimentation.

The latest thing I did was looped back to modes and found a Youtube jam track in D mixolydian. While I still struggle with the concept of modes, playing an actual mode to a jam track is helping me get more comfortable. For now, mode wise, i want to spend some time on the Mixolydian mode. I know the full shape, starting oon the D (low string, 10th fret), and I am exploring whether there are other positions of the Mixolydian. I assume you can move the current shape around to other star=ting points and it will work, but I wonder if there are multiple shapes associated with mixolydian. if so, i'd like to learn them next.

VCoincidently, and fortunately, I just read the post by d that says "I hope Mu Fu sees the Jan GP." What is the Jan GP? I don't know what that is referring to, but it sounds very timely given where I am. Can you tell me how to get there?

Lastly, I will be away until the 18th of this month and sadly, will not have access to a guitar during that time. So I will continue when i get back. I'll be checking this thread in the next day or so, i leave Friday.

Thanks and may all of you have a fantastic 2019 and beyond!

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2966523 01/03/19 02:41 PM
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Here is the youtube video I was referring to that i am presently jamming to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPIebPDBizs

I need to find out if there are other shapes to the Mixolydian mode, in addition tot he shape that he plays on the D

Last edited by Music Fusion; 01/03/19 02:41 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2966527 01/03/19 03:03 PM
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So, to answer part of my own question, I found these shapes of the Mixolydian mode online:

http://www.discoverguitaronline.com/diagrams/view/13

Now, in the video I linked to above, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPIebPDBizs the shape he is playing starting on the 10th fret of the low E string (D), is not any of the shapes on this chart. So this has me confused.

If I wanted to play the Mixolydian in D, as he does in the video, how do i use this chart to do so?
http://www.discoverguitaronline.com/diagrams/view/13

Last edited by Music Fusion; 01/03/19 03:07 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2966528 01/03/19 03:06 PM
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[this was typed in the same time frame that encompassed the immediately preceding posts from MuFu]

If I understand correctly, yer looking for fingerings ("shapes"). Is that correct ?

In that regard you could play, as I believe has been stated already, any scale/mode starting on any note anywhere along the fretboard.
The relevant factors being...
--to practice exercises for dexterity;
--b/c some position offers comfortable fingering for the music yer gonna play in in a particular situation.

If I'm addressing the Q properly, I can't stress this enough:
the whole point of study & practice is to be prepared for playing what you want as you develop as a player.
The only real rules are what works to achieve the musical effects you want to invoke &, depending on style/genre/artistic goals, those desired results are up to what you intend to achieve in that context...which may be diff from what you intend in another context.

We've heard some of yer playing, so we know yer skilled.
You want to learn more & that's great; no one should be complacent & ongoing development is a goal more should pursue ... but I wonder if, for whatever reason, you might feel unnecessarily intimidated by what you think you don't know.
Remember: the very thing that will make you distinctive as a musician is what you do that's different.

Last edited by d; 01/03/19 03:10 PM.

d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2966530 01/03/19 03:09 PM
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Hey d.. I really like that you push me to venture out and experiment. That, along with trying to at least know what the "rules" are, is helping me grow.

I am not sure if I asked my question properly. I am confused as to why the Mixilydian shapes in the chart, do not match up to what he is playing on the video.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2966534 01/03/19 03:14 PM
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I see...
I'll have to take some time & look at the clips & charts before I find examples of what yer citing as differences.

Do you see what I'm pointing out, though, abt fingerings are only there as guidelines for study---not as yer only options ?


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Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2966559 01/03/19 04:46 PM
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"Shapes" are really just common locations to find the notes. Part of the issue here is that you need to realize that scales aren't "Shapes" but instead are a bunch of notes. To make it easier to find them/remember them, on the neck, we use patterns. (Mainly because moving every note up one fret raises the key so we can play the same scale in a different key without having to memorize the note on every fret.)

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: A String] #2966645 01/04/19 02:06 AM
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So, I know I am still jumping around, but please bear with me. I had a mini breakthrough tonight.

I learned that the Mixolydian scale is the same as the major scale except the 7th is flattened. Thus, I was able to play the mixolydian scale.

Now, I am realizing that as long as I respect the fact that the interval distances remain the same ( in this case, the 7th is always flattened no matter where you play the notes and no matter what octave you start the root on), then you are safe playing it.

I also realized why I had no much trouble with the video that Craig had kindly posted for me. You see Craig started the C major scale on the A string, 3rd fret. I was not aware, until tonight, that one can start a scale on any string.

I thought it always had to start on the low E string. so when Craig was saying that he was paying the C major scale, and then trying to explain modes from there, my mind was stuck on "why isn't he starting on the low E, 8th fret?"

I didn't voice this question because I thought I'd sound stupid, but that was one of the things that was causing a block in my mind.

I am nowhere close to mastering modes, but I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel where the mixolydian mode is concerned.

So, when i asked about "shapes or patterns' of the mixolydian mode, i am thinking that the way I phrased it was awkward. What I should probably be saying is that it does not matter where you start the scale, as long as you respect the interval thing. this will cause the "shapes" to look different de;ep0nding on what root note you are starting on, and what string you choose, but the intervals remain the same.

I am hoping I am correct.

I will try to check in on this thread tomorrow but after that, i will be away until the 20tjh.

Thanks for your patience.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2966756 01/04/19 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
So, I know I am still jumping around, but please bear with me.

NO ! grin
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I had a mini breakthrough tonight.
I learned that the Mixolydian scale is the same as the major scale except the 7th is flattened. Thus, I was able to play the mixolydian scale.

At risk of seeming pedantic, I recall that being my 1st post to this thread, when you were asking which mode might be most common.
That's not important in itself but I wonder if it indicates that yer too concerned abt acquiring info quickly & may be overloading yer "Mental In-Box" without taking time to investigate the subject by playing though & get a real feel for the way various scales/modes sound in various contexts.
That's not a criticism, MF, just a question.
When I was younger I was quite in a hurry to know things & it takes a while, perhaps, to realize that these things do take some time to become familiar.
We're never done with learning these things b/c as long as we play there will be nuances that we catch or develop.
Watch out for the time when you think you've nothing to learn---that's not a good sign !

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Now, I am realizing that as long as I respect the fact that the interval distances remain the same ( in this case, the 7th is always flattened no matter where you play the notes and no matter what octave you start the root on), then you are safe playing it.

Cool---but remember that as you play parts in context you may add or leave out notes. You aren't restricted to only playing the defining notes of scales/modes.
You can mix in other notes or even mix in diff modes...& you do not need to be aware of or have an intellectual justification for that.
It just need to be how you want things to sound.
Dig ?

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I also realized why I had no much trouble with the video that Craig had kindly posted for me. You see Craig started the C major scale on the A string, 3rd fret. I was not aware, until tonight, that one can start a scale on any string.

I thought it always had to start on the low E string. so when Craig was saying that he was paying the C major scale, and then trying to explain modes from there, my mind was stuck on "why isn't he starting on the low E, 8th fret?"

I didn't voice this question because I thought I'd sound stupid, but that was one of the things that was causing a block in my mind.

I am nowhere close to mastering modes, but I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel where the mixolydian mode is concerned.

So, when i asked about "shapes or patterns' of the mixolydian mode, i am thinking that the way I phrased it was awkward. What I should probably be saying is that it does not matter where you start the scale, as long as you respect the interval thing. this will cause the "shapes" to look different depending on what root note you are starting on, and what string you choose, but the intervals remain the same.

I am hoping I am correct.

I will try to check in on this thread tomorrow but after that, i will be away until the 20tjh.

Thanks for your patience.




Hey, pal, work at yer own pace.
This is a lifelong exercise in development.
Cut yerself a big slice of slack & enjoy playing music.
Don't think ya "hafta-hafta-hafta"---OK ?


d=halfnote
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2966889 01/05/19 12:37 AM
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Hey d. I'm not sure I am overloading. i think it is more the case of some things not clicking until i've heard it 300 different ways from 100 different people ;-) But on a serious note, sometimes things appear apparent to someone who knows a lot about it, but not at all apparent to the one who knows little about it. So, as I gather bits and pieces along the way, things that did not resonate initially, suddenly start to.

I can assure you with confidence that nothing written here has been taken lightly. in fact, each time i go on vacation such as that being the case from tonight until roughly the 20th, i always bring a link to this board and re-read everything from scratch. Sadly, i won't have a guitar with me, but maybe that's a good thing.

I always start by playing every note of the mode or scale up and down. Once I think i've gotten the hang of the construct, then i start experimenting by skipping notes, trying uncommon combination of notes and the like. it makes for interesting soloing.

I won't be posting here for another few weeks as I won't have a chance to try anything new until i return.

Until then, thanks again.

Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2966997 01/05/19 04:13 PM
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MuFu, I meant no criticism nor intended faulting of yer ability to understand...only that I wondered if you might be pushing to hard in a race to reach yer goal & not savoring the territory along the way.

I think the enjoyment of music's the main thing.


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Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: d / halfnote] #2970018 01/19/19 04:53 PM
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Well, I am back and still bouncing around.

My most recent feat is I have learned all 5 shapes of Dorian. So I have been jamming along with many different tracks online G Dorian, D Dorian. B Dorian etc., so i get the feel of how the shapes sound in different keys.

I am going to stick with Dorian for a few days. After I am done with Dorian, I'll go back to Mixolydian and learn all those shapes.

Don't worry...I am having a lot of fun applying what i have learned. I'll keep you folks apprised at my ongoing adventures... ;-)

And I know it's not just about shapes and modes. It about the feel.

Last edited by Music Fusion; 01/19/19 04:54 PM.
Re: Applying Modes Question [Re: Music Fusion] #2970038 01/19/19 06:14 PM
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MF, I think yer on the right track in some ways but I would, again, emphasize the value of putting music studies in a definite context.

One can explore & learn from simply playing forms & patterns.
That's where many very cool creations start but the real expression of music is songs, melodies & other thangs.
That's kinda what y'just wrote but it's more than feels, although those are also valid.
"The Blues", for example, is a feel (or set of feels).

I asked before nut can you tell me a few examples of yer fave songs or music ?
Styles? Cultures ?

I think you'd get a quicker idea of the expressive qualities of modes by studying how they fit w/the music you "feel" & how their nuances affected you.

Abt this...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
...so i get the feel of how the shapes sound in different keys.

That's a sticking point for me & one that I think will waste yer time.
As I think I pointed out before, the idea that the same thing played in diff keys sounds diff is a misconception that's hung around for far to long.
It dates from the times when acoustic instruments had more narrow capabilities than in the modern world.

There is a real phenomena, tessitura, that relates to the pitch range of voices or instruments.
This is most noticeable at the extremes where an instrument or vox will sound v. diff than in it's general range.
In The Olde Daze, particularly w/European ensemble music, this meant that there really was a slightly diff emotion that could be attached to some combinations in certain ranges.
That eventually led to the sort of person who likes to over-categorize things, claiming there were diff expressive qualities inherent in diff keys.

That's not the way it works in the modern world where instruments, esp electronic insts, are much more uniform throughout their ranges.
Truth is that it's simply & solely an idea suggested by the various pitch ranges of instruments/vox & how we respond to what we're most accustomed to hearing.
For example, high pitches tend to sound strained; a rising pitch set suggests (depending on culture) lighter emotions & a descending phrase solemnity.
Try playing a passage in C; C#; D; E of any similarly close set of keys, however & you'll not really hear a diff.
Key has no more effect on music than yer BDay has on yer persona.






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