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#2954653 - 10/26/18 07:16 AM OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
https://medium.com/swlh/the-10-000-hour-...ed-cbd309cf6800

[snip]
At only four years old, Yeou-Cheng Ma exhibited a clear talent for the violin.
Under the tutelage of her father, a Ph.D. student at the Paris Conservatory of Music, Yeou-Cheng began to play the instrument at two-and-a-half years old. Only a year later, she entered in her first competition against students ranging from fourteen to nineteen years old. She won.

Her violin teacher praised Yeou-Cheng’s ability to her mother, a vocal student who later sang opera. She said, “Your daughter is a brilliant musician. There’s no doubt in my mind that she inherits this talent from you and your husband…It’s in her genes.”

Finally, the teacher added: “Mrs. Ma, what I’m trying to tell you is that I think it is a great pity that you don’t plan on having another child.”

At the time, the three of them lived in a tiny apartment in Paris. They struggled to earn a living and had barely enough for themselves.

Yet, four years after the birth of their daughter, a son was born in 1955.

He was named Yo-Yo Ma.
_________________________
Innovation is never a single event. It is a long process of discovery, engineering, and transformation.
My Soundcloud with many originals:
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994

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GP Island
#2954654 - 10/26/18 07:19 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: GregC]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
[snip]

To be sure, Yo-Yo Ma has worked incredibly hard at his craft. As a youth, he was challenged to play difficult pieces beyond what was expected at his age level. Under the careful eye of his father, Yo-Yo has practiced and performed for almost his entire life.

But how much of Yo-Yo Ma’s success is attributable to hard work, and how much of it comes from innate talent?

Scientists have found evidence, however, that goes against the idea of deliberate practice being the main contributor to success. In the study, they re-analyzed six previous chess competition studies and eight studies on musicians, involving 1,083 chess players and 628 musicians respectively.

Nurture That Which is in Your Nature

Who was right after all? Was it Yeou-Cheng Ma’s violin teacher, who believed her skill was inherited from her parents, or her father, who brought up two talented musicians on the basis of diligence, concentration, and practice?

The answer is both. If we work hard enough and believe in ourselves, many things are possible. Yes, there are limitations. Yes, some people can work to reach greater progress in less time.

But here’s the good news: You can start focusing on what matters. When you find yourself picking up some skills more quickly than others, you learn where to invest your efforts. When you focus your strengths, then you start to find purpose.
_________________________
Innovation is never a single event. It is a long process of discovery, engineering, and transformation.
My Soundcloud with many originals:
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994

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#2954664 - 10/26/18 08:11 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: GregC]
desertbluesman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 4770
Loc: Near Phoenix Az
My kiddo once told me I was talented because of my musical ability, now that said, I replied to the kiddo, I am not talented, I am tenacious. I learned how to play in spite of my lack of natural musical talent, because I worked at it relentlessly. I took lessons and stole licks from everyone I saw playing. But the reason I became a decent player, is because I practiced, the more I practiced the technically better I became. But it was not until my old age did I slow down enough to have a melodic sense, before that I could play fast and lots of notes, but I never actually listened to what I was playing as I played it. Inserting pauses and drawing out some of the notes has been my focus lately and that brings my playing to new levels.

Who knew, that not playing in certain places would improve my playing? (Not me until lately).
_________________________
dbm
If it sounds good, it is good !!
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=143231&content=music
Harvey Cedars is my stage name on Soundclick

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#2954671 - 10/26/18 08:33 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: desertbluesman]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 11487
Loc: Northern California
I practice for the fun of it, not to keep up with 2 year old prodigies... cool
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Take care, Larryz

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#2954706 - 10/26/18 10:46 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: desertbluesman]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: desertbluesman
. But it was not until my old age did I slow down enough to have a melodic sense, before that I could play fast and lots of notes, but I never actually listened to what I was playing as I played it. Inserting pauses and drawing out some of the notes has been my focus lately and that brings my playing to new levels.

Who knew, that not playing in certain places would improve my playing? (Not me until lately).


Home run. Perfect post.

I can get away with it here- I don't believe in the Jordan Rudess approach to music.

I will take tasteful , from the heart/soul , less BPM , less 1/64th cascading runs/arps every time.
_________________________
Innovation is never a single event. It is a long process of discovery, engineering, and transformation.
My Soundcloud with many originals:
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994

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#2954708 - 10/26/18 10:49 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: Larryz]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: Larryz
I practice for the fun of it, not to keep up with 2 year old prodigies... cool


We likely agree on approach.

If I banged on keys for 10,000 hours trying to imitate Keith Emerson [ or other greats] I would fail. I bet others are more successful because their technical strengths are better than mine.

I have never been much of a follower. I admire musical strength but pursuing someone else incredible strength 100% of the time would not work for me.

The article is suggesting you work your strengths to your benefit. And it does not require 10,000 hours.
_________________________
Innovation is never a single event. It is a long process of discovery, engineering, and transformation.
My Soundcloud with many originals:
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994

Top
#2954716 - 10/26/18 11:56 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: Larryz]
desertbluesman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 4770
Loc: Near Phoenix Az
Originally Posted By: Larryz
I practice for the fun of it, not to keep up with 2 year old prodigies... cool


+1 Larryz. These days when I am dealing with old age memory issues, (Which I have diminished through diet and exercise) (I actuality have reversed the can't remember sh**t disease slightly with diet and exercise) Anyways the CRS disease is also part of my finger memory as a problem. Practice reverses that a bit also. I got the carpel tunnel surgery several Mondays ago so I have not picked for more than a few minutes since then. Monday coming I get the stitches out, and away I go a pickin and a grinnin again and I also do that for fun.
_________________________
dbm
If it sounds good, it is good !!
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=143231&content=music
Harvey Cedars is my stage name on Soundclick

Top
#2954724 - 10/26/18 12:30 PM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: desertbluesman]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: desertbluesman
Originally Posted By: Larryz
I practice for the fun of it, not to keep up with 2 year old prodigies... cool


+1 Larryz. These days when I am dealing with old age memory issues, (Which I have diminished through diet and exercise) (I actuality have reversed the can't remember sh**t disease slightly with diet and exercise) Anyways the CRS disease is also part of my finger memory as a problem. Practice reverses that a bit also. I got the carpel tunnel surgery several Mondays ago so I have not picked for more than a few minutes since then. Monday coming I get the stitches out, and away I go a pickin and a grinnin again and I also do that for fun.


Memory is very tricky stuff. I have ferocious long term memory- going back to grade school, little details, etc etc.

Where I put my glasses ?? &^^%%& Misplace them frequently

Its dumb short term stuff that gets me. Due to over splitting my attention

FYI, low salt diet. No booze, Zero . [ i know, WTF].

Retired. No stress. My Doc says she doesn't know anyone with my easy does it
lifestyle. She is 40 so that makes her a millennial. She could be BS'g me, too.
_________________________
Innovation is never a single event. It is a long process of discovery, engineering, and transformation.
My Soundcloud with many originals:
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994

Top
#2954726 - 10/26/18 12:32 PM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: desertbluesman]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 11487
Loc: Northern California
@ GregC, I have been working on my strengths all along, but with old age they tend to be diminishing LOL! I have always said that I have forgot more than I will ever know. In my gigging days my practices were more work related. Now they are simply for pleasure. I'm still learning new tricks and sounds and as DBM pointed out, I listen more and not just run on and on with notes and speed. I do not believe in copying anyone (to include the original records guitar parts, Jimi, Stevie, etc.). If there is a special hook needed like Day Tripper, Pretty Woman, Memphis, etc., I'll make sure it's included. cool

@ DBM, I sure hope you fully recover after getting those stitches out. I had surgery on my middle finger of my fretting hand a decade or more ago and everything is back to as normal as I could ask for. I can't keep up with my own self LOL! Good luck and keep us posted! I too have a bad case of CRS LOL! cool


Edited by Larryz (10/26/18 12:35 PM)
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2954756 - 10/26/18 03:17 PM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: Larryz]
desertbluesman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 4770
Loc: Near Phoenix Az
The problem with memory issues in the elderly is gluten bearing foods, sugars and that includes fruit as well. Starches are also the problem. Read a book called Grain Brain, by a Doctor David Perlmutter it is enlightening. I eat very little starches, in fact mostly none. No fruit, no candy, nor sugars at all. Fructose is a sugar lactose is a sugar sucrose is a sugar, none of them are good for the brain. Berries are OK. in small doses because the fructose in them is less than things like apples water melon other melons. I do not eat potatoes or other root vegetables considered high in carbohydrates. I do drink 3/4th a cup of wine every afternoon. Red wine that is. Read the book I mentioned above if memory issues are beginning in you. It can be reversed and slowed mightily if you catch it in time.
_________________________
dbm
If it sounds good, it is good !!
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=143231&content=music
Harvey Cedars is my stage name on Soundclick

Top
#2954777 - 10/26/18 06:20 PM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: desertbluesman]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: desertbluesman
The problem with memory issues in the elderly is gluten bearing foods, sugars and that includes fruit as well. Starches are also the problem. Read a book called Grain Brain, by a Doctor David Perlmutter it is enlightening. I eat very little starches, in fact mostly none. No fruit, no candy, nor sugars at all. Fructose is a sugar lactose is a sugar sucrose is a sugar, none of them are good for the brain. Berries are OK. in small doses because the fructose in them is less than things like apples water melon other melons. I do not eat potatoes or other root vegetables considered high in carbohydrates. I do drink 3/4th a cup of wine every afternoon. Red wine that is. Read the book I mentioned above if memory issues are beginning in you. It can be reversed and slowed mightily if you catch it in time.


We are close to food agreement. The food industry is killing us, making people obese, diabetic and causing hypertension.

Grains , nuts, vegetables. I am ok with fruit, since the glucose is natural and the body can process that. No wine. Wine effect my sleep pattern so its no go.

Exercise is a key. I push my knees as much as possible
_________________________
Innovation is never a single event. It is a long process of discovery, engineering, and transformation.
My Soundcloud with many originals:
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994

Top
#2954791 - 10/26/18 11:49 PM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: GregC]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3174
EXCEPTIONS DON'T INVALIDATE AVERAGES!!!

Excuse me, I felt the need to scream that, based on the 100 hours of conversations and fights I've had over this topic.

There's savants who instantly play an instrument like a master. Are you one of them? No? Then you need to practice a lot... we'll say 10,000 hours because it sounds impressive. It might be 10, or 200, 2,000,000 hours before YOU get good, depending on YOU!!! But from research, 10,000 hours was an approximate generalization based on masters. Actually, that's not the point of the Malcolm Gladwell book dealing with this, "Outliers"... his point is that incredible success stories have some thing that gave them an edge in some way, so you shouldn't feel like a loser if you don't measure up to their instant genius and success because you just don't realize all of the work they really put into it. For The Beatles, it was the long hours in Hamburg, which necessitated being able to slip into record stores and learn a verse and chorus of the number one and popular hit songs from around the globe so drunken sailors in port wouldn't beat them savagely when they couldn't play a request. Athletes like Hockey players and football players it has to do with either having late birthdays that hold them back a year or conniving parents who enter them in school later because they have a developmental and size edge on the kids they compete with, and that snowballs over the years as they are standouts.

What we think of as "innate talent" is an epigenetic predisposition/advantage combined with environment. Epigenetics is a fascinating thing: supplemental DNA in bacteria that carries "short term" information. We are bags of water and bacteria, and our mitochondrial DNA does not carry genes for things like musical talent and behavioral things. Instead, that is transmitted in Epigenetics, in a particular way. If you have mastered an instrument, the part of your brain that analyses music and the part that deals with the coordination required for that is developed by the activity, and you pass on the Epigenetic cue to your kids that tells the brain as it's developing "these people tend to play music, be ready to coat these neural pathways a little heavier in case they respond to music and start playing it." Then, if there's music in the child's environment they have an edge that way in deciphering and analyzing it... as the brain develops in kids, as the electro-chemical routes are wired, the ones that get used more often get a heavier coating of myelin which insulates the neural pathways and makes them more efficient and faster (for a devastating look at what happens to brains with a deficiency of myelin, watch the movie "Lorenzo's Oil"). Kids whose parents have mastered an art or a sport or are geniuses or speak a lot of languages pass on these Epigenetic cues that give them an advantage. IF they respond to the environmental stimulus, and this is what we regard as a natural aptitude. The "IF" there is because the individual personality, the result of brain architecture (most of us here have had children, and we discover that they are "themselves," personality-wise, at a very young age...).

Anyway, can someone without an Epigenetic advantage master an instrument and become a success? Certainly... they just have to put in more work... maybe 10,000 hours worth.. or more, or less... genetics is not destiny. Epigenetics is not destiny.

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#2954792 - 10/26/18 11:53 PM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: desertbluesman]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3174
Originally Posted By: desertbluesman
The problem with memory issues in the elderly is gluten bearing foods, sugars and that includes fruit as well. Starches are also the problem. Read a book called Grain Brain, by a Doctor David Perlmutter it is enlightening. I eat very little starches, in fact mostly none. No fruit, no candy, nor sugars at all. Fructose is a sugar lactose is a sugar sucrose is a sugar, none of them are good for the brain. Berries are OK. in small doses because the fructose in them is less than things like apples water melon other melons. I do not eat potatoes or other root vegetables considered high in carbohydrates. I do drink 3/4th a cup of wine every afternoon. Red wine that is. Read the book I mentioned above if memory issues are beginning in you. It can be reversed and slowed mightily if you catch it in time.


I have switched to a Keto Diet... and yeah, you definitely feel different running on fat versus sugar from carbs. And weight has started to come down just from that...

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#2954793 - 10/27/18 12:06 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: GregC]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3174
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: desertbluesman
Originally Posted By: Larryz
I practice for the fun of it, not to keep up with 2 year old prodigies... cool


+1 Larryz. These days when I am dealing with old age memory issues, (Which I have diminished through diet and exercise) (I actuality have reversed the can't remember sh**t disease slightly with diet and exercise) Anyways the CRS disease is also part of my finger memory as a problem. Practice reverses that a bit also. I got the carpel tunnel surgery several Mondays ago so I have not picked for more than a few minutes since then. Monday coming I get the stitches out, and away I go a pickin and a grinnin again and I also do that for fun.


Memory is very tricky stuff. I have ferocious long term memory- going back to grade school, little details, etc etc.

Where I put my glasses ?? &^^%%& Misplace them frequently

Its dumb short term stuff that gets me. Due to over splitting my attention

FYI, low salt diet. No booze, Zero . [ i know, WTF].

Retired. No stress. My Doc says she doesn't know anyone with my easy does it
lifestyle. She is 40 so that makes her a millennial. She could be BS'g me, too.


I work .8 miles from my house. It drives my wife insane that she can call me 30 minutes before I leave the office and ask me to pick up something at the drug store on the corner in the middle of that short drive, and she will watch me pull into the driveway, open the car door... realize I forgot to get whatever it was, and pull out and go back... she thinks it illustrates that I don't listen to her, but I heard it enough to go back and get it, right? A psychologist buddy explained that the human brain needs novelty, especially as far as environment and routes. When it realizes it's making the same trip for the 1,000th time it stops consciously recording... you go on autopilot for all intents and purposes. The thing with Doctors saying people should walk a lot as they get older is not only about the exercise... they should walk a lot in new and different places, because the human brain literally developed "memory" to remember where we had been and what resources/dangers were in those places. A weird thing they bring up to prove this is "think of the house you lived in as a child. You can remember every nook and cranny, right?" Take a lot of vacations to new places, it fires up your brain.

As for the glasses, when you put them down just say or sing out loud to yourself where you're putting them...

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#2954796 - 10/27/18 12:38 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: p90jr]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3174
Sorry for the "screaming" reaction above...

But I'll say that I disagree with this article. Sure, some people are meant to be sprinters and some aren't. I wasn't... my brother was, as well as a great all-around athlete who eventually became a career professional skateboarder... I'm a much better guitarist than he is, though!

But there's so many extremely talented and successful musicians who did NOT have any musical precursors in their families.

I don't believe that any of The Beatles come from musical environments. And with the exception of a small early success by Julian Lennon, their children have not conquered the world of popular music, with all of the advantages they have, have they?

Joe Jackson's parent's generally regarded him as an alien who appeared in their household, but his standing as a child prodigy on violin and piano was just something they didn't understand at all...

Far more interesting to me is the "X factor." What makes some people just so remarkable? It can't be explained by genetics or backgrounds in a lot of cases...

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#2954805 - 10/27/18 04:28 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: desertbluesman]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 11102
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Yeah, I too, have a sort of "selective memory", the trouble being that it isn't ME doing the selecting! wink

I have an old friend who once told me he got up to practicing for 18 hours a day! He realized(and too late according to him) that he'd reached a plateau and wasn't progressing any more, and missed out on a whole lot of LIFE in the process. Like, when he cut down to just practicing every other day( and for only two or three hours) he noticed his daughter(19-20 by then) had grown BREASTS at some point! shocked and his younger son was SHAVING! HeadPop

Incidentally, he said it was the occasion of, when taking a break from practice to "hit the head" and walking out of his practice room and seeing his wife's suitcases at the front door with her standing by waiting for a cab that he took the hint he needed to cut back. smirk
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2954807 - 10/27/18 05:10 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: p90jr]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: p90jr
Sorry for the "screaming" reaction above...

But I'll say that I disagree with this article. Sure, some people are meant to be sprinters and some aren't. I wasn't... my brother was, as well as a great all-around athlete who eventually became a career professional skateboarder... I'm a much better guitarist than he is, though!

But there's so many extremely talented and successful musicians who did NOT have any musical precursors in their families.

I don't believe that any of The Beatles come from musical environments. And with the exception of a small early success by Julian Lennon, their children have not conquered the world of popular music, with all of the advantages they have, have they?

Joe Jackson's parent's generally regarded him as an alien who appeared in their household, but his standing as a child prodigy on violin and piano was just something they didn't understand at all...

Far more interesting to me is the "X factor." What makes some people just so remarkable? It can't be explained by genetics or backgrounds in a lot of cases...



you make good points.

Most of us know this, I believe but I will assert it -there are different ways to succeed

I practice just enough to create new originals. I am self taught, and I consider myself
average on keys. I am older than most [?] at 66 so I have possibly accumulated something
or another on the keyboard.

If I was 20 yrs old, I would definitely bang out hours and hours of practice. But these days, I don't need to impress anyone but myself and my 2 cats.

My strength is composing and arranging instrumental. Up to 40 originals on SoundCloud.
I don't blaze solos at 140 BPM- I simply don't have that flash. But I have a demanding Muse.

So when you have a strength, commit to it, then run the table as much as you can. I suspect many have strengths but they don't fully commit to them.

To me, that is the point of this article. Run like hell and push your strengths.

I play scales 15-20 minutes a day. Then I am off to crazy song idea time. Consistent
at feeding my Muse.

We have lots in common but we are not all equally skilled musically. Lots of interesting
differences is my guess.
_________________________
Innovation is never a single event. It is a long process of discovery, engineering, and transformation.
My Soundcloud with many originals:
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994

Top
#2954810 - 10/27/18 05:18 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: whitefang]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: whitefang
Yeah, I too, have a sort of "selective memory", the trouble being that it isn't ME doing the selecting! wink

I have an old friend who once told me he got up to practicing for 18 hours a day! He realized(and too late according to him) that he'd reached a plateau and wasn't progressing any more, and missed out on a whole lot of LIFE in the process. Like, when he cut down to just practicing every other day( and for only two or three hours) he noticed his daughter(19-20 by then) had grown BREASTS at some point! shocked and his younger son was SHAVING! HeadPop

Incidentally, he said it was the occasion of, when taking a break from practice to "hit the head" and walking out of his practice room and seeing his wife's suitcases at the front door with her standing by waiting for a cab that he took the hint he needed to cut back. smirk
Whitefang


Some musicians get obsessive. getting lost in your instrument 18 hours
per day is over the top. If you live by yourself, you can do whatever you want, of course.
No judgement if you fly solo, no other obligations.

But if you are married, have family, or live in girl friend, etc, there are expectations.
I understand how music is an obsession- my wife gets aggravated some time by my music. I know 1 thing- she is right 99.9% of the time.
_________________________
Innovation is never a single event. It is a long process of discovery, engineering, and transformation.
My Soundcloud with many originals:
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994

Top
#2954824 - 10/27/18 07:30 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: whitefang]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3174
Originally Posted By: whitefang
Yeah, I too, have a sort of "selective memory", the trouble being that it isn't ME doing the selecting! wink

I have an old friend who once told me he got up to practicing for 18 hours a day! He realized(and too late according to him) that he'd reached a plateau and wasn't progressing any more, and missed out on a whole lot of LIFE in the process. Like, when he cut down to just practicing every other day( and for only two or three hours) he noticed his daughter(19-20 by then) had grown BREASTS at some point! shocked and his younger son was SHAVING! HeadPop

Incidentally, he said it was the occasion of, when taking a break from practice to "hit the head" and walking out of his practice room and seeing his wife's suitcases at the front door with her standing by waiting for a cab that he took the hint he needed to cut back. smirk
Whitefang


That might've bee taking it a bit far, but...

there's also the case of the famous retired cellist who was asked why - at 97 - he practiced for 8 hours day? His answer: "Because I think I'm making progress!!!"

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#2954828 - 10/27/18 08:18 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: GregC]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3174
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: p90jr
Sorry for the "screaming" reaction above...

But I'll say that I disagree with this article. Sure, some people are meant to be sprinters and some aren't. I wasn't... my brother was, as well as a great all-around athlete who eventually became a career professional skateboarder... I'm a much better guitarist than he is, though!

But there's so many extremely talented and successful musicians who did NOT have any musical precursors in their families.

I don't believe that any of The Beatles come from musical environments. And with the exception of a small early success by Julian Lennon, their children have not conquered the world of popular music, with all of the advantages they have, have they?

Joe Jackson's parent's generally regarded him as an alien who appeared in their household, but his standing as a child prodigy on violin and piano was just something they didn't understand at all...

Far more interesting to me is the "X factor." What makes some people just so remarkable? It can't be explained by genetics or backgrounds in a lot of cases...



you make good points.

Most of us know this, I believe but I will assert it -there are different ways to succeed

I practice just enough to create new originals. I am self taught, and I consider myself
average on keys. I am older than most [?] at 66 so I have possibly accumulated something
or another on the keyboard.

If I was 20 yrs old, I would definitely bang out hours and hours of practice. But these days, I don't need to impress anyone but myself and my 2 cats.

My strength is composing and arranging instrumental. Up to 40 originals on SoundCloud.
I don't blaze solos at 140 BPM- I simply don't have that flash. But I have a demanding Muse.

So when you have a strength, commit to it, then run the table as much as you can. I suspect many have strengths but they don't fully commit to them.

To me, that is the point of this article. Run like hell and push your strengths.

I play scales 15-20 minutes a day. Then I am off to crazy song idea time. Consistent
at feeding my Muse.

We have lots in common but we are not all equally skilled musically. Lots of interesting
differences is my guess.


This became a hot topic back and forth in the wake of Gladwell's book (which is a good read and provocative). The one thing that emerges with case studies, though, is "enjoyment." Most people who excel at things get incredible enjoyment out of doing them, which then reinforces the time put into them. They literally are dosing their brains with dopamine - the "pleasure chemical" - over and over by doing something to get good at it. That becomes a feedback loop that is very advantageous. Certainly having a bit of natural ability that makes it easier to get going makes it more pleasurable to do something, and that produces another advantage.Does that make sense?

I have a bandmate whose dad forced him to play tennis from the time he was 5... he put him through the Tiger Woods thing... he made him into a natural, incredible tennis player. For some reason obvious or not, my buddy HATES tennis. He was a champion player in high school and won a college scholarship, which he purposely crewed up in the first semester because he was miserable and hated doing it. When he's badly needed a job he's reluctantly been a club pro and tennis teacher until he can find something else. He never plays... I tell him if I could play like he does I would do it for fun and exercise once a week or something... "But I HATE it!!!" is his answer.

My mother is a classical pianist. As a kid some of my first memories are of being attached to her lap in one of those wrap things while she tore through classical pieces. I wanted to play the piano... I begged as a kid to study piano, along with guitar and drums. My dad (full disclosure, pretty much a jerk) violently refused. He'd decided I would be a trumpet player... that I would go to college and study trumpet (which, had I done that, I would've had to study piano and pass proficiency in it... so he - as usual - made no sense... I think he just wanted to be the dominant influence instead of my mother)... I played trumpet as a kid, I was good... it came easy, I could play by ear and improvise naturally, all of my teachers rated me very highly... I wasn't passionate about it. When I was able to steal my sister's guitar (she got to take piano and guitar lessons) I discovered my obsessive 23 hours a day passion. I messed with the family piano when I could... but I never was able to put in the hours as a kid. I understand how to play the piano, I'm often in the position of explaining how to play songs to skilled pianists, but I have a lot of work to do before my hands can match my brain... same with drums. And my brain taunts me with dreams where I can play both effortlessly. Maybe when I retire I can practice for hours a day and get really good at them.

My daughter is 6... she was pegged as intellectually gifted at age 2. She's in a gifted program at school, and in the first grade they tell us she almost reads at the level of a strong 9th grader. The school just had her screened and placed into a "Talented in music" program, which I didn't think she was ready for, but she aced it. My family are musicians and music teachers and dancers and artists. My wife has a PhD in Education and her family are teachers. She has some natural and environmental advantages going on. What I worry about is that all of this has been "natural," in that it isn't the result of any real active effort on her part... it's all come easily. What happens when she encounters something she has to work at for the first time? I want to make sure she learns to enjoy having to work at things. I know a lot of naturally gifted people who've avoided challenging themselves... and I know an awful lot of bitter and angry underachieving certified geniuses.

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#2954837 - 10/27/18 09:57 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: p90jr]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 11487
Loc: Northern California
@ DBM, I've been a type II diabetic since about '95 so I'm pretty much a low carb, low starch, no sugar kind of guy...I don't worry about forgetting things as most improvisation is gone the next day. The parts that stick are the important ones for me...

@ Fang, never neglect the wife and family. I would give up playing first and long before she packs her bags...

@ Greg, I'm 68...pretty much self taught. I took lessons for about 3 months out of my 55 years of playing guitar. I'll never catch up with those two year old prodigies though lord knows I've tried LOL! One of my guitar buddies always brings up those 3 months whenever I say I'm self taught LOL!


@ P90, I loved that 97 year old Cello players comment! I no longer practice for anybody but myself (with a few exceptions now and then). I'm not that good or talented but I still enjoy my time with the guitar whenever I get the chance to play it. I feel I'm making progress when something new pops up as I'm going over songs, chords, improv, etc...

cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2954840 - 10/27/18 10:17 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 7043
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Kinda late to this one & haven't read it in full but after checking the 1st few posts I'd suggest somethings (& forgive me if someone else has already).
Here are a few thoughts:
There is no such thing as inborn talent.
It does take some extensive amount of study &, beyond that, practice to develop any superior skill at anything.
However, one can practice extensively & not progress if, for example, one were to practice a narrow range, e.g., the same material all the time.
There's even the possibility that incorrect practice procedures may devolve one's skills, as when one might keep practicing tryna overcome a mistake but inadvertently you actually "learn the mistake" by driving it deeper into yer mentality !

The principle of study & practice is true, however.
It's just not tied to a specific amount of time & necessitates focused & well-considered activity.
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2954845 - 10/27/18 10:55 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: d]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: d
Kinda late to this one & haven't read it in full but after checking the 1st few posts I'd suggest somethings (& forgive me if someone else has already).
Here are a few thoughts:
There is no such thing as inborn talent.
It does take some extensive amount of study &, beyond that, practice to develop any superior skill at anything.
However, one can practice extensively & not progress if, for example, one were to practice a narrow range, e.g., the same material all the time.
There's even the possibility that incorrect practice procedures may devolve one's skills, as when one might keep practicing tryna overcome a mistake but inadvertently you actually "learn the mistake" by driving it deeper into yer mentality !

The principle of study & practice is true, however.
It's just not tied to a specific amount of time & necessitates focused & well-considered activity.


Good lively discussion. There is no right or wrong. I think everyone here is cool
on the topic.

We mostly speak from our personal experience. I think this is true with some variation.

About inborn talent, I see it, think it and hear it and play it differently.

I am one of those that ' has an ear' for music, chords, etc. I am far from
note perfect but I can get in the range of what I hear. But forget about
blazing fast solos- I need Audacity to cop that.

My Dad was roughly similar in his era- 40's/50's but he was a casual musician.
Accordion, banjo. That was a different era.

So I credit my Dad, for having a good ear for grabbing onto audio.

I took it further and still mash it up on learning stuff. I use
very little sheet music to dope out stuff- only when I am
stuck.

I am sure this is nothing unique. But as a very average
player on keys, I can push my strengths for good result.

I think of it as a mental muscle that I exercise every
day. I also have a near constant ear worm going on.

I will never be a studio class musician. I simply
will never gain the chops. I enjoy pick and
choosing what era, what genre, what arrangement
and mash it up. Boundaries are good for jumping
over.
_________________________
Innovation is never a single event. It is a long process of discovery, engineering, and transformation.
My Soundcloud with many originals:
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994

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#2954872 - 10/27/18 02:51 PM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: p90jr]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 7043
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: p90jr
I don't believe that any of The Beatles come from musical environments. And with the exception of a small early success by Julian Lennon, their children have not conquered the world of popular music, with all of the advantages they have, have they?

Actually McCartney's dad was a pro musician in his youth & Lennon's mother, w/who he had less consistent contact than the Mac family, played guitar & sang.
The nascent Beatles often practiced at her home.

On the subject if "innate" talent.
That's bumping up against predestination...which might be possible.
However, what seems innate, I think, is a person exposed at a very young age (often with deliberate parental, as in the case of Wolfie Mozart) to some art or practice that resonates with them & they have the further luck of an encouraging environment.
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2954948 - 10/28/18 04:25 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 11102
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Yeah, Larry---

My friend seemed (unintentionally) to be one of those guys who figured once he handed over the paycheck his "job" was done.

Luckily though, he's come to know much better.
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2954979 - 10/28/18 07:44 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 11487
Loc: Northern California
I hope they stayed together and are living happily ever after...I gave up my gigging band to spend more time at home with my family. I still love to play and played many gigs since. I just cut down from every Friday and Saturday night plus a Thursday and a Sunday afternoon now and then. To just now and then. Things went a lot smoother with that regular job and paycheck too LOL! cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2955179 - 10/29/18 10:49 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: GregC]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3174
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: d
Kinda late to this one & haven't read it in full but after checking the 1st few posts I'd suggest somethings (& forgive me if someone else has already).
Here are a few thoughts:
There is no such thing as inborn talent.
It does take some extensive amount of study &, beyond that, practice to develop any superior skill at anything.
However, one can practice extensively & not progress if, for example, one were to practice a narrow range, e.g., the same material all the time.
There's even the possibility that incorrect practice procedures may devolve one's skills, as when one might keep practicing tryna overcome a mistake but inadvertently you actually "learn the mistake" by driving it deeper into yer mentality !

The principle of study & practice is true, however.
It's just not tied to a specific amount of time & necessitates focused & well-considered activity.


Good lively discussion. There is no right or wrong. I think everyone here is cool
on the topic.

We mostly speak from our personal experience. I think this is true with some variation.

About inborn talent, I see it, think it and hear it and play it differently.

I am one of those that ' has an ear' for music, chords, etc. I am far from
note perfect but I can get in the range of what I hear. But forget about
blazing fast solos- I need Audacity to cop that.

My Dad was roughly similar in his era- 40's/50's but he was a casual musician.
Accordion, banjo. That was a different era.

So I credit my Dad, for having a good ear for grabbing onto audio.

I took it further and still mash it up on learning stuff. I use
very little sheet music to dope out stuff- only when I am
stuck.

I am sure this is nothing unique. But as a very average
player on keys, I can push my strengths for good result.

I think of it as a mental muscle that I exercise every
day. I also have a near constant ear worm going on.

I will never be a studio class musician. I simply
will never gain the chops. I enjoy pick and
choosing what era, what genre, what arrangement
and mash it up. Boundaries are good for jumping
over.


Music is a language, and like other languages the brain wires itself to understand it when young with exposure a little more easily. I play guitar and sing around the house a lot when I can, my daughter has always liked to sit and listen, or dance while I do it. The screening for that Talented Music program she just went through looked at tonal differentiation (being able to tell which of two or three notes played was high, lower, in the middle), melodic pattern differentiation, being able to sing back melodic patterns, rhythmic pattern discernment, etc. She aced all of those. We had noticed years ago that she takes her dolls and improvises Disney-esque songs... but I was impressed that the made-up melodies in the verses and chorus were repeated, that she innately understood composition and that they built up to the big crescendo every time, then came down... for a 2 and 3 year old that was pretty impressive... the made up lyrics weren't bad, either. Most kids that age probably listen to and sing "Let It Go" a million times, but using it as a model for other songs is pretty funny at that age.

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#2955180 - 10/29/18 10:51 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: p90jr]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3174
She's also had dance and gymnastic lessons since she was 2 or something, so that re-inforced things.

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#2955181 - 10/29/18 10:57 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: p90jr]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: p90jr
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: d
Kinda late to this one & haven't read it in full but after checking the 1st few posts I'd suggest somethings (& forgive me if someone else has already).
Here are a few thoughts:
There is no such thing as inborn talent.
It does take some extensive amount of study &, beyond that, practice to develop any superior skill at anything.
However, one can practice extensively & not progress if, for example, one were to practice a narrow range, e.g., the same material all the time.
There's even the possibility that incorrect practice procedures may devolve one's skills, as when one might keep practicing tryna overcome a mistake but inadvertently you actually "learn the mistake" by driving it deeper into yer mentality !

The principle of study & practice is true, however.
It's just not tied to a specific amount of time & necessitates focused & well-considered activity.


Good lively discussion. There is no right or wrong. I think everyone here is cool
on the topic.

We mostly speak from our personal experience. I think this is true with some variation.

About inborn talent, I see it, think it and hear it and play it differently.

I am one of those that ' has an ear' for music, chords, etc. I am far from
note perfect but I can get in the range of what I hear. But forget about
blazing fast solos- I need Audacity to cop that.

My Dad was roughly similar in his era- 40's/50's but he was a casual musician.
Accordion, banjo. That was a different era.

So I credit my Dad, for having a good ear for grabbing onto audio.

I took it further and still mash it up on learning stuff. I use
very little sheet music to dope out stuff- only when I am
stuck.

I am sure this is nothing unique. But as a very average
player on keys, I can push my strengths for good result.

I think of it as a mental muscle that I exercise every
day. I also have a near constant ear worm going on.

I will never be a studio class musician. I simply
will never gain the chops. I enjoy pick and
choosing what era, what genre, what arrangement
and mash it up. Boundaries are good for jumping
over.


Music is a language, and like other languages the brain wires itself to understand it when young with exposure a little more easily. I play guitar and sing around the house a lot when I can, my daughter has always liked to sit and listen, or dance while I do it. The screening for that Talented Music program she just went through looked at tonal differentiation (being able to tell which of two or three notes played was high, lower, in the middle), melodic pattern differentiation, being able to sing back melodic patterns, rhythmic pattern discernment, etc. She aced all of those. We had noticed years ago that she takes her dolls and improvises Disney-esque songs... but I was impressed that the made-up melodies in the verses and chorus were repeated, that she innately understood composition and that they built up to the big crescendo every time, then came down... for a 2 and 3 year old that was pretty impressive... the made up lyrics weren't bad, either. Most kids that age probably listen to and sing "Let It Go" a million times, but using it as a model for other songs is pretty funny at that age.


thats cool. I think your daughter might be example of innate ability- in that she grasped
melody, concepts, harmony so quickly.

Innate might not be the accurate word- lets say ' strong disposition ' to absorb what she hears and sees , then has the agility to quickly/actively repeat it. She is a talented child.
_________________________
Innovation is never a single event. It is a long process of discovery, engineering, and transformation.
My Soundcloud with many originals:
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994

Top
#2955194 - 10/29/18 11:34 AM Re: OT: “10,000-Hour” Myth: Why Deliberate Practice Isn’t Enough [Re: p90jr]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3174
If anyone wants to read up on Epigenetics and how it can relate to transferring an advantage in music:

A Super Brief and Basic Explanation of Epigenetics for Beginners

Part 2 of the above, which goes a little more in depth

Toward an Epigentic View of Our Musical Mind

The Bachs and the Epigentics of Music
Imprinted genes can explain seeming inheritance of acquired skills.


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