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#2946613 - 09/04/18 05:58 PM Modeling Amps
DocPate Offline
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Loc: Virginia
Maybe time to retire the old tube amps and try a Mustang GT.


https://www.fender.com/articles/gear/the-many-benefits-of-modeling-amps

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#2946620 - 09/04/18 06:43 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: DocPate]
desertbluesman Offline
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I had a Fender Super Champ X2 which was a hybrid, the power section was tube, preamp section was one 12AX7 and modeling. I really liked it, but I sold it to buy the Egnater 15 watt head, which I like a lot better except for transporting the amps outta the house. The X2 was a combo, it weighed in at 24 lbs. I changed out the speaker from stock (junk) to an Eminence Lil Buddy hemp cone speaker, and that helped it a big bunch. I paid $349 for it stock, and another $29 (I think) for the foot switch, and another $18 (I think) for the cover. I also spent another $80 or so on the Lil Buddy speaker. All in all it was a very nice amp for short road trips, nowhere near as loud or tone full as the Tweaker, but very versatile. No effects needed, they were all on board. Grab and go, guitar in one hand and SCX2 in the other, foot-switch and wires in the back of the amp. I played it for several years and got $350 when I sold it. Not a bad loss considering other were selling theirs for a lot less on Craigslist.
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#2946625 - 09/04/18 07:26 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: desertbluesman]
Larryz Offline
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My Fender Floor pedal is the same as the Fender Mustang amp sans amp. It can go direct to the PA or in front of a SS or Tube amp. I'm pretty much going direct with a touch of reverb and without all the effects and modeling amps these days... cool
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#2946721 - 09/05/18 01:48 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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As tech marches on eventually tube amps will become so expensive to maintain they'll be in the realm of those cars from the 1950s you sometimes see on the road.
Likewise, the validity of digital tech (along w/the general public's (& musos, too) acceptance of it's audio quality will settle the matter, just as it has in the world of photography, etc.
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#2946833 - 09/06/18 08:26 AM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: d]
DocPate Offline
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Loc: Virginia
I don't think I will ever need 200w but only 8 lbs. Great onboard effects.

https://www-musicradar-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.musicradar.com/amp/news/hughes-and-kettner-promises-to-redefine-the-guitar-amp-with-the-feature-rammed-black-spirit-200/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.musicradar.com%2Fnews%2Fhughes-and-kettner-promises-to-redefine-the-guitar-amp-with-the-feature-rammed-black-spirit-200

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#2946878 - 09/06/18 11:54 AM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: DocPate]
DocPate Offline
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Registered: 01/11/16
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Loc: Virginia

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#2946882 - 09/06/18 12:21 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: DocPate]
Jazz+ Offline
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Kitana 100 trumps the others, imo.
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#2947056 - 09/07/18 11:49 AM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: Jazz+]
DocPate Offline
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On another board we we're discussing Standel amps and I remember the huge output transformer giving the amp great clean frequency response.

So it begs the question, how clean is clean? Are there other amps with a similar frequency response? And at what point does hi fi become overkill?

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#2947204 - 09/08/18 12:23 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: DocPate]
d Offline
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I dont think I've ever heard Standel amps held as a qualifying standard of anything ever before.... grin

Hey, I'm not making that "qualificationalification" here just, y'know, sayin'....

Airbody learns on & works on what they can
All that helps ya get better is good
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#2947311 - 09/09/18 07:57 AM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: d]
CEB Offline
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Standel were some of the finest amps of the 60s. Pedal steel guys like them. Buddy Emmons, Speedy West and other steelers played them.

Wes Montgomery, Chet Atkins were a fan. In the 70s they got a bad batch of transitors that would go bad and send DC to the speakers and fry stuff. That ruined them. The cost of warranty repairs were to high and they went out of business. Gibson bought them and they became SG amps.

Later Gibson had the LAB series amps. The 2-12 L-5 was a nice amp. Where I worked at the time supplied backline for a BB King show once and he requested 2 L-5s. If we could not find them Silverface Twins but under no circumstances did he want the new twins at the time which were the black ones with the red knobs.


Edited by CEB (09/09/18 07:59 AM)
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#2947313 - 09/09/18 08:04 AM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: CEB]
CEB Offline
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I just got a new Katana 100 with the foot switch and a Morley ABC pedal. I'm going to gig with. This thing can do everything. I like it a lot so far.

I originally got it because acoustic instruments and pedal steel sound good through it. I programmed a bank of electric guitar patches for it. I'm using it for everything in the Country band.
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#2947321 - 09/09/18 09:45 AM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: CEB]
Larryz Offline
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Congrats! And thanks for a good review! thu
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#2947415 - 09/10/18 09:09 AM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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I dunno....maybe I was gettin' Standel amps mixed up w/ Standells band...(y'know the orig punk rockers)
facepalm
BTW & FWIW Lowell Freakin' George spent some time in that corporate-boiler-snake pit
(coulda been worser---he mighta been in the Vanilla Sludge)

The most undifficult bs line ever
Chas Chandler would wake up from his grave & throw stuff at that cat




& if that ain't enough, lemme haunt yer future dreams w/this
I think Ray Day actually sued rolleyes


...however that's all a tangential digression from the point, ain't it ?
So, back to that....
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#2947430 - 09/10/18 11:25 AM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: d]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Hey, I had that album (Dirty Water) back then.
And I still have a Standel amp, a big ass Imperial XV solid state thing with a JBL 15" in it. Weighs a ton, sounds great, only does clean. Which suits me just fine.
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#2947676 - 09/11/18 12:26 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: Scott Fraser]
p90jr Offline
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I have so many amps already... but I am a fan of analog pedals/etc. that "model" amps... I have and use a lot of those by Vertex, Sansamp/Tech 21. Lovepedal...

I love my D-Tar Mama Bear modeling acoustic guitar preamp... only it seems to not be working as of a few weeks ago...

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#2948466 - 09/15/18 12:26 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: d]
p90jr Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
As tech marches on eventually tube amps will become so expensive to maintain they'll be in the realm of those cars from the 1950s you sometimes see on the road.
Likewise, the validity of digital tech (along w/the general public's (& musos, too) acceptance of it's audio quality will settle the matter, just as it has in the world of photography, etc.


I meant to comment on this a while ago... probably started typing and got interrupted.

Technology advancements are also making tube amps easier to maintain. I gigged an AC30 and AC15 hard for 10 years... never had to change the tubes that came in them when I bought them both used... the tubes are still fine on both of those amps and I never had one problem with them. An amp building/repairing buddy of mine says tube manufacturing has gotten back to being very consistent and good across the board, again. He fixes my amps, and when I bought the "crap PCB Chinese Vox" amps, as he calls them, he warned me he wasn't going to mess with them... he reminds me of that when I run into him, socially... I haven't had to have him repair amps in the 10 years that I've had them... I always tell him "well... they seem to have eliminated the need for me to bring you stuff to fix..." Maybe it took them a while to perfect using PCBs, but several companies seem to have perfected it. If there is an argument against them, then the same argument would apply to digital amps, which use them and chips used in amplification.

The people I know who make their living as professional fine arts photographers are still doing that the traditional way... because people who collect fine art photography will pay a lot for a silver gelatin print that can't endlessly be reprinted at the push of a button. There's no reason for me to go through that process to share a pic of my kid with chocolate cake on their face with my relatives, though I took photography classes and have cameras.

I think it was around 2005 or so that a guy I know was saying "stomp boxes are history... with digital multi-effects and being able to plug into a laptop to get effects, the idea that people are going to keep buying these individual dedicated boxes is just stupid. Sell them, now... nobody will want them in five years." The stomp box industry has exploded and is a bigger business now than it ever was, with so many small boutique companies making money doing it I can't even keep track of all of them.

I think guitarists are just contrarians... we go in the opposite direction by instinct. If we didn't young players would all be rappers who assemble tracks on laptops which probably attracts more girls in high school these days...

Does every player need a tube amp? Certainly not.

Will a lot of them on the professional level continue to cherish and prefer them? I'll bet so...

Niche industry, maybe, but then the guitar itself keeps falling into that by most predictions...

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#2948487 - 09/15/18 02:00 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: p90jr]
d Offline
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PJ, I think you evade, maybe, one aspect of what I suggested---where these tubes come from ?
What costs have they ?
My understanding (hardly authoritative) is that for more than a few decades, most tubes & similar components come from low-tech, sorta impoverished countries in E Europe & Far East.
You mention that many folkses pay to maintain their cars...that's my point.
Cost-effectiveness will trump other factors.

Beyond what "pros" can afford & the actual (rather than perceived) diffs...what factors govern the realities we might face ?
-------------------------
A 2nd point....while many ppl play diff types of insts, there's a significant diff between those who play insts that have inherent expressive playing natures.
Strings naturally bend pitch.
So do many blown insts.
KBs don't.
Modern tech bypasses those to achieve similar effects but the mentality of the player & how they feel the instrument may never be the same... idk
That same thing may apply to other things than just pitch bending....or am I gettin' OT... ?
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#2948512 - 09/15/18 03:37 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: DocPate]
picker Offline
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Originally Posted By: DocPate
Maybe time to retire the old tube amps and try a Mustang GT.

I had one, and know of two people who also did. I really didn't like mine for very long. They have a learning curve to get what's in them out of them. I found myself wishing for a bit more of the instant gratification of an amp and pedals, and thought, why am I putting myself through this? I went back to my tube amp and pedals, and haven't looked back.
I have almost always had that same problem with modeling hardware. It seems like they never sound quite right, too much of this and/or not enough of that. I was able to get decent sounds and response out of a Pod XT Live/ Variax set-up, but it didn't work right if it was humid.
IT may not be fair of me to say it, but I just don't think I'll see a really good modeling set-up that works for me that I can afford in my lifetime.
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#2948515 - 09/15/18 03:53 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: picker]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Originally Posted By: picker
Originally Posted By: DocPate
Maybe time to retire the old tube amps and try a Mustang GT.

I had one, and know of two people who also did. I really didn't like mine for very long. They have a learning curve to get what's in them out of them. I found myself wishing for a bit more of the instant gratification of an amp and pedals, and thought, why am I putting myself through this? I went back to my tube amp and pedals, and haven't looked back.
I have almost always had that same problem with modeling hardware. It seems like they never sound quite right, too much of this and/or not enough of that. I was able to get decent sounds and response out of a Pod XT Live/ Variax set-up, but it didn't work right if it was humid.
IT may not be fair of me to say it, but I just don't think I'll see a really good modeling set-up that works for me that I can afford in my lifetime.


I have had several modeling items in my past, I really liked the PodXT most. I had a Digitech RP2000 as my first modeler then I bought The PodXT, Then a Digitech GNX2 which I still have but have not booted in several years, Then I bought a Tonelab Tabletop which I still have (but have not booted up in years either) because it had a tube in it. Of all of those the most realistic sounds I got was from the PodXT.

I also had a Fender Super Champ X2 tube/modeling hybrid. It was very nice if you were hip enough on how to tweak the sounds with the editor program, but it still had that "it ain't a tube amp thing" about it. Now there are a lot of folks who still swear by modeling, and some of them get great tones out of them. But all in all when I went back to all tube offerings I was "home" again.
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If it sounds good, it is good !!
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Harvey Cedars is my stage name on Soundclick

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#2948551 - 09/15/18 09:38 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: desertbluesman]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: desertbluesman


I also had a Fender Super Champ X2 tube/modeling hybrid. It was very nice if you were hip enough on how to tweak the sounds with the editor program, but it still had that "it ain't a tube amp thing" about it. Now there are a lot of folks who still swear by modeling, and some of them get great tones out of them. But all in all when I went back to all tube offerings I was "home" again.


I had a similar experience. I had been playing through my SS amps and neglecting to fire up my Hot Rod Deville for 3 or 4 years. When I moved to a new house the Hot Rod Deville was just sitting there and I thought why not fire it up for old times sake...well, I was hooked on tubers again within a few seconds. I had a buddy selling his Hot Rod Deluxe for $400 which was like new, and I called him that same evening and bought it. Once I was bitten by the clean warm tube amp sound again, I was in heaven. cool


Edited by Larryz (09/15/18 09:41 PM)
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#2948592 - 09/16/18 09:24 AM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: Larryz]
woods888 Offline
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Registered: 09/15/18
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I love modeling amps singe I get Fender Mustang Mini which can be powered also with baterries. I played two amps from GT series and they are great, but for me they're lack if this full tone which I can hear on mustang series or Even Katana from Boss, so I prefer these
https://musicsquare.co.uk/146798_Fender-Mustang-IV-V2-Guitar-Amp.html
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/...-cosm-combo-amp
But that's only my opinion and I still think that GT are great, but I prefer other models. smile

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#2948601 - 09/16/18 10:22 AM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: woods888]
Larryz Offline
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Welcome Aboard Woods888! I have a little Roland Cube Street EX4 which runs on batteries or AC that I really use more than all my other stuff these days. I can also run it to the PA with two output for stereo or mono and/or use it as a PA with mic and guitar channels...+1 those are some cool little amps... cool
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#2948661 - 09/16/18 03:29 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: Larryz]
Lokair Offline
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Welcome to the boards woods . I just bought a Fender Mustang Floor for 25$. It needed a power supply, I had one(replacement that met the specs) and it must have taken a pretty serious hit or drop. A ribbon cable came undone and the pin connector needed a touch up on the solder joints. The Thing is built to take it, not a mark on the case. Now Works like new. I Must say if I was a working musician with gigs every weekend I would go that route. Plug into the PA and go, it sounds terrific and is quite capable of doing most of my sounds with no problem.

Lok
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#2948692 - 09/16/18 07:13 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: Lokair]
Larryz Offline
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+1 I have a Fender Mustang Floor pedal. It's basically the Fender Mustang amp brain sans speaker. It does a great job running direct to the PA complete with ground lift and noise gate. Gets all the pedal sounds I could ask for. Runs great in front of an amp and if the amp breaks down can still go direct to the PA and get some very nice Fender sound(s). I have been going direct-in to my amps sans any pedals to include the Floor, but if I should reverse directions some day, I'll plug the Floor back in! cool
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#2951249 - 10/03/18 12:07 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: Larryz]
p90jr Offline
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This is tempting for me to pad out the arsenal... a paired down and cheaper (but still powerful) Headrush... we'll see if fly-in gigs start popping up.


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#2951265 - 10/03/18 01:52 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: p90jr]
CEB Offline
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My Katana in the rock band was meh ... Okay .... until this Third Eye Blind tune and I turned on my Russian Big Muff. Katana said .... F* That!. LOL. It didn't like the Fuzz.

I guess I should have tested my pedalboard out with the amp more thoroughly before the gig.


Edited by CEB (10/03/18 01:53 PM)
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#2951286 - 10/03/18 03:49 PM Re: Modeling Amps [Re: CEB]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
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I hate to say anything about that amp because people LOVE it and get angry, but a bandmate has one and brings it as his backup amp, and has had to use it when his amp failed during/before shows...

It doesn't sound bad by any means, and I get the charm of it as a practice amp, but it lacks something for me... then again, I never personally got excited by Jazz Chorus amps, which some people love... and there are some solid state amps I like and use.

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