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#2947493 - 09/10/18 03:58 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: Jazz+]
A String Administrator Offline
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I'd have to respectfully disagree that Lennon's choices were based on LSD and wild sex. Lets not forget, he and the boys had many a romp while in Germany. I'm sure they were no strangers to wild sex. And as for LSD. I doubt it "Broke" him. I'd say it was more of a case of suffering from anxiety and depression which he tried to self treat with drugs. I think Yoko offered him the "artist" point of view that he just wasn't getting. A sympathetic ear and an understanding. In the end, as "d" said, I think they were many reasons The Beatles broke up and I don't feel that she was one of them.
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#2947530 - 09/10/18 08:13 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: A String]
d Offline
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YO was also a , um, semi-"graceful" way to get out of partnership w/Macca, as Paul grew more powerful in the band.
At the tail end of the 1960s it very much looked as though "far out" was "way in" grin.
Remember, too, that in the aftermath of their dissolution, it was Mac that got the most negative PR.
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#2947538 - 09/10/18 09:11 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: Jazz+]
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Lennon said he reckoned he had a thousand LSD trips. This is almost certainly an exaggeration. A couple of hundred times over the course of several years I'd be willing to believe. But he first did it in 1965 and talked about it in 1970. If he'd really done it a thousand times then he was dosing himself once every 48 hours for five years. This would mean, for all practical purposes, that he was flying on LSD whenever he was awake. Cynthia said he became a different person and she knew him best. People in the Beatles camp like Mal Evans said that he almost lost himself there. I'm sure you're familiar with the story of John calling in the boys too announce he was the reincarnation of Jesus.

Have any of you doubters, that think John was himself and in a noble state of mind, have you ever tried well over a 100 LSD trips on your brains? Most cases are either died or ended up wandering in the streets. Remember Brian Wilson: “At first, my creativity increased more than I could believe… On the downside, it fucked my brain.”

We probably should blame Dr. Roberts and Timothy Leary for John's case. Ono took over Lennon care at a vulnerable time and "inspired" him to leave the boys and instead become 'The Plastic Ono Band". Perfect for the heroin loving opportunist.

Footnote: Germans are wilder than the British, but the advanced Japanese practices far surpass the European traditions...jeez don't make me spell it out for you.

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#2947561 - 09/11/18 04:03 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: Jazz+]
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Personally, I too think Lennon exaggerated his acid use to perpetuate some kind of "image" he thought might put him in a "better" light with some people. And too, possibly egged on by all the "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" horseshit. Look up Peter Yarrow's send-up concerning the assertion(from some writer) that "Puff The Magic Dragon" was also a "drug reference" song. wink

At the time too, it seemed John was all about hyperbole, and Paul was all about hubris.
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#2947652 - 09/11/18 11:03 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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One caveat there is that many would just take a taste...so that you weren't completely over the rainbow but just a bit shiny.
One could do that fairly regularly...not to claim there was no exaggeration involved
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#2947680 - 09/11/18 12:44 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: d]
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The Nazis invented LSD. Bayer Aspirin invented Heroin as the "cure to the common cold". Nobody invented Yoko Ono. :-)
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#2947693 - 09/11/18 02:07 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: Mark Schmieder]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Schmieder
The Nazis invented LSD.

rolleyes
You may be joking, Mark, but that's not the case, although there were/are myriad analogs, anywhat.
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#2947716 - 09/11/18 05:41 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: d]
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They invented it, unless the author of the book I just finished is wrong (and she won many awards). The truth is hard to find anymore.
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#2947768 - 09/12/18 04:15 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: Mark Schmieder]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Schmieder
They invented it, unless the author of the book I just finished is wrong (and she won many awards). The truth is hard to find anymore.

That last sentence is true---although disinformation's been a plague on humanity throughout history--- but as far as LSD the story's well known. What book ya' citing abt this exciting topic ?

It was an accidental discovery by a lab chemist, Albert Hofmann (not Yippie mastermind Abbie H. grin ).
Here's one source but the story was well-known long before the advent of WPedia or the Net & you'll likely find details in a variety of books or online locs
< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Hofmann >

Here's a starter list searching "discovery of LSD"
< https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=CfiYW4MwwbawBdXcppgC&q=discovery+of+LSD&btnK=Google+Search&oq=discovery+of+LSD&gs_l=psy-ab.3...9251.14393..15379...3.0..0.162.1630.18j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....6..0j35i39j0i131j0i10.-qyKqBPML_I >

Some might wonder if Germany controlled that area of Switzerland at that time but there seems to be no historical suggestion that they did anything to use the discovery in social control or in way.


Edited by d (09/12/18 04:31 AM)
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#2947770 - 09/12/18 04:30 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Heh!

I just remembered a buddy of mine said( after hearing Yoko apparently laying an egg on "Cold Turkey", and many moons ago... ) that Yoko was maybe Japan's revenge for Hiroshima!
wink
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#2947774 - 09/12/18 05:01 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Turkey Clodding
Orig w/ Ringo on drums & Lennon doing all gtr


Ye Olde Rock & Roll Concert / Toronto, Cana-dada, Dad
Eric Clapton weighs his options in joining Lennon's band


Living it up w/ Elle Frank's Memory
Chet Atkins---oops, Chester Ayers---on gtr / Jimmy Keltner on drums


Special Listening Section
If ya think you know all abt this song listen to these trax

BOTH will reward the effort twothumbs

Cold Trickey version, feat Rick Nelson---oops, Nielson---on gtr


Freddie Hubbard's 1970 version, feat Herbie Hancock & others
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#2947868 - 09/12/18 11:53 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: d]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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That exactly matches what is said in "Operation Paperclip", so for some reason you have chosen to not consider 1938 the Nazi era, or the Swiss complicit (including Hoffman himself).
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#2947870 - 09/12/18 11:59 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: Mark Schmieder]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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Can't do videos or audio, but I have the Hubbard and listened to it quite recently. B-O-R-I-N-G. I don't think he played it when I saw him live around the time that album came out. Haven't heard the Cheap Trick cover; that might be fun. Awful song though.

I love the stuff Ono did with Charlie Haden. She was in the jazz and avant-garde world prior to meeting Lennon, then they did their Primal Scream thing and also she was devastated that her ex took her daughter away. It's a VERY brief part of her musical career, and yet people choose to DEFINE her by that work (but they don't do the same for Lennon's awful contemporaneous album, which had GREAT songs that were nearly all destroyed by his renditions).

Ono is very melodic. Her NORMAL singing voice is not what we're used to in the west, but is in line with what is somewhat typical in more traditional Japanese folk and pop form. She's written some truly gorgeous melodies, such as "Listen, the Snow is Falling", and some fun proto-punk songs that inspired B-52's and others ("Catman", and other stuff from the mid-70's). She was actually more prolific than Lennon during that era, and her songs have been covered by others who are appreciative.
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#2947922 - 09/12/18 02:46 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: Mark Schmieder]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Schmieder
That exactly matches what is said in "Operation Paperclip", so for some reason you have chosen to not consider 1938 the Nazi era, or the Swiss complicit (including Hoffman himself).

Unaware til a moment ago of "Op PClip"...& still haven't checked it out fully (frankly it's over 1/2 C ago &, while of historical pertinence, may not be particularly relevant here idk ).

While there were various scientists who did work for the Nazsties & were later brought to the USA (Von Braun of NASA, for ex) that doesn't mean that all scientists who were in Ger or controlled territories worked for Hitler or were themselves Nazsties.

Whatever the case in that regard, nothing that I've ever seen suggests that the discovery of LSD was but an accident & since there were many somewhat similar psychoactive chemicals already available, I'd posit that an effort to deliberately develop a new one was unlikely.

There is a later history of LSD being tested by the CIA, etc, as a control tool but all indications are that, except for possibly making unsuspecting victims all twitchy & spookadelic, it was so unpredictable as to be useless for anything other than making ppl crack up.
My understanding of the Hitler regime is that they had absolutely no compunctions abt just slaughtering folks nor felt the need to operate covertly, so why would they even bother w/that approach ?

There are some who think that it may've been a tool used to divert the more modern protests in 1960s USA but whether that had the intended effect could still be debated. idk
It's use as a disruptive military or strategic tool would've been more effective, I'd say, in something like making a whole populace simultaneously non compos mentis as opposed to a few individuals.

On the other hand it may be the explanation for...


It's effect here is for the listener to decide
Ornette Coleman = trumpet / Ed Blackwell = drums
Charlie Haden & David Izenzon = basses


The same caveat applies to the emotive writing here
Bob Dylan's Voice Lowered 3 Semitones.
Removing the "nasal"-sound quality of Bob Dylan's voice in some of his songs it reveals a different kind of voice.
All credits to: < https://soundcloud.com/bobsothervoice >



Back to the LenOno thang, here's one that may surprise many
An old European folk song



& here's "Snow Is Falling" that Mark mentioned


& for those who like a bit of trance-funk (or trance folk)
compare these

Which is more oddball ?






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#2947998 - 09/13/18 04:02 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: d]
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That "Bob's other voice" thing is interesting. But, any long time Dylan "freak" is aware Bob could actually sing smoothly enough when his mind was put to it. wink
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#2948021 - 09/13/18 06:44 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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I dunno.
I think his vox are on a par w/what most ppl think of Ono.

Even on NASHRAMBLER SKYLINE & some of the leftover tracks that went onto ELF'S PORTRAIT, which most ppl consider his "smoovy smoove" vox (& was, I think accomplished via Bob Johnston's EQ in an attempt to make the new improved homey Dyl more radio friendly rather than a real diff in his singing) there's a barky quality to his vox & as he's aged, w/ some attendant health probs he's like Croaky the Frog.

The thing that sells his vocal delivery is not his voice but his almost inimitable phrasing.
He's actually a terribly self-conscious & uncertain singer, which is one reason his deliver of many songs varies over time.


We now return you to our regularly scheduled program, "Bashifying Yoko OhNo"...
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#2948025 - 09/13/18 06:55 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: d]
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Well one more little comment as we are comparing Yoko's crappy vocals and baying at the moon to Bobby D's vocals history. The Nashville Skyline album did show the world that Bob could sing and had another side to his vocals. +1 As he got older he got croaky like an old frog, but the lyrics and delivery were still there. I like all of his vocals from Highway 61, John Wesley Hardin, Blood on the Tracks, etc., through today. Here's a cut from Nashville and I loved Lay Lady Lay with Johnny too!




Now back to Yoko LOL! cool
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#2948212 - 09/14/18 03:32 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
I dunno.
I think his vox are on a par w/what most ppl think of Ono.

Even on NASHRAMBLER SKYLINE & some of the leftover tracks that went onto ELF'S PORTRAIT, which most ppl consider his "smoovy smoove" vox (& was, I think accomplished via Bob Johnston's EQ in an attempt to make the new improved homey Dyl more radio friendly rather than a real diff in his singing) there's a barky quality to his vox & as he's aged, w/ some attendant health probs he's like Croaky the Frog


Well sure, Bob's voice did get raspier and rawer (and "croaky") as he got older. And due to many reasons. But I'll contend that the "most ppl" that are referred to are usually that majority of the general public that were unfamiliar with Bob BEFORE "Like A Rolling Stone", which is about the time he quit putting in that much effort in his vocals. And BTW---

I don't recall Cash joining in on "Lay Lady Lay". from "Nashville Skyline", but Bob DID surprise most "come-lately's" with the often well done vocals on that LP. And I think it was "Girl From The North Country" that Johhny joined him on. wink
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#2948236 - 09/14/18 06:35 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: whitefang]
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Yeah, I think you got that right Fang...Cash was on the North Country. Sorry about the brain fart! facepalm
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#2948410 - 09/15/18 04:34 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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'Salright.....

But, it WAS fun seein' them both doin' that tune on Cash's TV show.
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#2948427 - 09/15/18 07:25 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: whitefang]
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Yeah, I have it on DVD! There were a ton of the old greats on that Cash show when they were still young. Fun to watch! cool
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#2948477 - 09/15/18 01:24 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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FWIW & BTW, I like a lota of the Dyls work but, as expressive as he was/is he was never a good singer.
He's more like Mick Jagger: an inflector of content.
Lennon, Paul McCarcerateMePlease, Rod Stewart, ... those are good male rock singers. Bob has never been a good singer.
Back to killing YO, who, IMHO, falls into exactly the same pit as Bob as far as, uh, sangin' [real Dyl fans'll get that grin , "Locust"s & all ].
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#2948485 - 09/15/18 01:55 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: Mark Schmieder]
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John, Paul, George AND Ringo have all said it wasn't Yoko who broke up the Beatles. I figure they know.
Yoko didn't force her way into John's musical career, he dragged her into it. If anyone is to blame for foisting her onto his fans, he is.
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#2948492 - 09/15/18 02:19 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: picker]
d Offline
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Is that not correct ?!
thu
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#2948556 - 09/15/18 10:13 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: d]
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In retrospect, I'd say that what really happened is that McCartney fired the band and moved on.

And that's also more logical as he's the one who didn't work with any of them again for many years, while they were all pretty much still playing together.

If Lennon had still had his act together, he probably would have drafted Billy Preston into the band, asked Klaus Voorman (who may have declined due to competing loyalties with multiple friendships), or someone else, to replace Paul.

Remember, Paul is the one who made the OFFICIAL announcement that he had quit the band and/or that the band was "no more" (I think primarily the former, with implications of the latter but not an explicit statement as such).

Paul was the one whose musical abilities had progressed the quickest; he absorbed everything George Martin had to teach, and more, was the most exploratory of styles/genres/instruments/composition, and had become increasingly frustrated by the technical abilities of his bandmates, the squabbles, and the lack of focus and energy compared to his own.

BTW this is not putting him on a pedestal; it's just an observation of how I think things went down. But I think all of them were eager to extend their musical range by jamming with other players, and were feeling they had reached their limit in that configuration.
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#2948573 - 09/16/18 04:42 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: Mark Schmieder]
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Paul always (to me) seemed to be the "smarmy" Beatle, chock full of hubris. And usually reminded me of those girls you knew in school who were gorgeous and KNEW it. wink

John had a measure of all that too. JUST a bit shy of Paul in that regard, only outdoing Paul in obdurance.
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#2948669 - 09/16/18 04:29 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: whitefang]
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As I understand it, they were all incredibly tired of each other. They were basically locked up together for years, and it kinda got to the point that kids in the backseat on a long trip get to, when "STOP TOUCHING ME!" seems a valid thing to fight about.

George was sick of being subservient to Paul & John on songwriting and pretty much everything else, John had deferred to Paul for a while because he was interested in other things, among which was Yoko, but he got tired of Paul taking over the leadership, particularly when he wanted Lee Eastman(Linda's dad) to take over the management. Paul was full enough of himself that he felt like he needed to be in charge.

Actually, John was the one who said "I quit" first, but Paul was the first to issue a press release and a solo record. George was just as happy with them hauling a$$ and leaving him to work on his own music. Ringo was self-medicating with booze, and kinda knew something was up, but felt pulled different directions.

I don't think Paul was as disappointed with the general level of musicianship as he was with the direction the songwriting wasn't going. He wanted to things to remain more on the pop/happy-go-lucky side, and John wanted get rawer and more "honest". George just wanted to get his songs on their records. When you look at the musicians he hired to tour with following the breakup, there wasn't anybody who was that much better than John, George & Ringo.
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#2948826 - 09/18/18 04:59 AM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: picker]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: picker
George was sick of being subservient to Paul


Geoge joked about that on the Anthology tapes, saying something like...

"Paul always felt he had to Lord it over me because he was 9 months older than me. Even today, he's STILL.... 9 months older than me." wink
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#2948911 - 09/18/18 12:08 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: picker
tired of Paul taking over the leadership, particularly when he wanted Lee Eastman(Linda's dad) to take over the management.

It's said that McCartney had learned from the experience of Mick Jagger that Allen Klein, while able to get them a lot more money by renegotiating their deal w/EMI, was not to be trusted but that JL liked Klein's "street" style & refused to trust Eastman's posh alternative.
Originally Posted By: picker
Actually, John was the one who said "I quit" first,

It may be worth pointing out that both Ringo (during the White album) & Harrison (during Let it Be) had quit already but were coaxed back.
Also that Harrison & Lennon had issued several individual albs before the final break-up; Starr's 1st solo alb was issued the same month as McCartney's....he also had what looked to be a lucrative future in films.
One of Lennon's later contentions was that a cartoon of their demise would be 4 panels: the 1st 3 w/one guy leaving in each panel & then PM in the last panel yelling, "I QUIT !"
Originally Posted By: Mark Schmieder
In retrospect, I'd say that what really happened is that McCartney fired the band and moved on.

I'm sure it looked that way to him & there's some validity to that idea.
Here's what some think's a sideways comment on the band


My dog got 3 legs but can't run...
I thought you was my friend but y'let me down...
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#2949822 - 09/24/18 01:06 PM Re: The Beatles and Yoko Ono [Re: d]
d Offline
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Every sec of this vid tells us sumpin abt what

Salient moments: Lennon looking around the room while working his way through the track
Ringo STARR! doing his job

Roll on, Bros & Sis, roll on
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