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#2941801 - 08/07/18 12:21 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
p90jr Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Originally Posted By: p90jr
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
My take on Great Van Fleet: they have potential. They’re not bad, not great.

Unlike some, I don’t have a problem with the lead singer having a RP-esque voice. He didn’t request that voice at birth, after all.

But I DO think aping RP’s visual style & stage act will wear thin. He needs to develop his own identity.

They’re young, yet, though.


C'mon, Danny... look how long a successful career Kingdom Come has had... wink



It was like 6 months later everyone just said "hey, those guys are just Led Zeppelin rip-offs..."

grin
I do own a few of their albums.

AND Fastway.

And Bonham.

And Coverdale/Page

Etc.


I don't think any of the other 3 are as directly derivative as Kingdom Come, who I guess did add a hair metal sheen to their Led Zep-ness... Jimmy Page CAN emulate Led Zep if he wants to, certainly... I can't remember anything about Coverdale Page, but The Firm had an interesting sound in spots with some different things coming in...

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#2941835 - 08/07/18 02:31 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: DocPate]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Country-jazz fusion is kinda what lies behind Lyle Lovett’s body of work, IMHO.
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#2941840 - 08/07/18 03:10 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
Larryz Offline
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This is what I call Hillbilly jazz (aka Western Swing) and could be considered country-jazz fusion.



The Guitar World still lives!

cool


Edited by Larryz (08/07/18 03:11 PM)
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#2941841 - 08/07/18 03:20 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: skipclone 1]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
The music being pushed by the corporates in North Am isn`t about guitars-actually it`s not about instruments. Consequently it`s not about bands either.
Part of my schedule these days involves covers of hit songs. I have to keep up with what`s trending. That can be truly painful but, every now and then something interesting pops up.

That's the way it's always been though, eh ?
& music itself, even barring commercialism (which started back around the time of Bach, IIRC, & definitely in play by the time thata kid MozArt PianoBanana hit the scene) has never been abt particular instruments, although we may sometimes think so.

& country-jazz ? idk
That's as new as Bob Wills or cats like these !


Some define bluegrass as country-jazz.

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#2941846 - 08/07/18 03:29 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: surfergirl]
MisterLutherMan Offline
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Have you checked out Neo-Soul guitar playing? That was the latest thing for me. Such a beautiful sound. Here's a lesson on it;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xwqi_TIDbI
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#2941847 - 08/07/18 03:42 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: MisterLutherMan]
d Offline
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Hey, MrLMan, welcome to town !
wave
That's a cool vid you posted but, as I suggested before, I think the things that represent new stuff on gtr have more to do w/technology than just playing techniques or musical qualities.
After serial composition, bebop, etc, I think the potential for anything new on a purely musical level has been achieved.
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#2941848 - 08/07/18 03:45 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: MisterLutherMan]
Larryz Offline
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WELCOME ABOARD MISTERLUTHERMAN! Cool lesson! cool
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#2941850 - 08/07/18 03:47 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Larryz]
Larryz Offline
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+1 d, I believe there are a ton of jazz improvisation techniques in blue grass music and in western swing... cool
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#2941852 - 08/07/18 03:51 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Winston Psmith]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
Originally Posted By: Larryz
Thanks Caevan, Now I get why that neck was so wide and it looked like a 7! cool


That's what I'm talking about, somebody with a new Instrument and a new approach, even if his style looks back to Funk and Soul, that is light years beyond.


+1 Winston. Finding new ways of presenting old styles can be golden... cool
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#2941869 - 08/07/18 06:08 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Larryz]
surfergirl Offline
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Everything we do is covers. We think most of the time when you are playing parties or bars people want to hear the music that they know. Unless you are a touring artist with a big contract if you want to work, in an already difficult climate, you have put your ego aside and give people what they want.
There are some songs I would like Michael, our bass player who is the only one with any real musical knowledge, to rearrange and put a little bit of us in the song to changed it up a little. I like Patsy Cline and would like to rearrange some of her songs, Back In Babies Arms and She's Got You, into blues rock, but her voice is so unique I think I would be afraid to try it.


Edited by surfergirl (08/07/18 06:10 PM)

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#2941903 - 08/07/18 09:28 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: surfergirl]
Larryz Offline
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My favorite Patsy Cline tune is Walking After Midnight. It already has a little blues rock jazzy vibe to it. But copy any tune you choose and make it your own. I jazz up some old country tunes but I try to keep a lot of the original vibe in my arrangements to please the audience too...




cool
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#2941927 - 08/08/18 04:33 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Y'know SG, you can try anything you like, and sometimes it works and sometimes not.

Back when I was in the ever changing "revolving door" bands I was in 'bout 50 years ago ( shocked ) we'd do stuff like that for fun. And too, some of it was OK enough to keep in rotation and on our playlist. Like one example that comes to mind...

A slowed down "blues" treatment of Herman's Hermits "Henry The Eighth" . crazy cool

BTW: I like most all of Patsy's tunes, and although( like with everyone else it seems) "Crazy" is high on my list, my favorite is her version of Don Gibson's "Sweet Dreams".

Like Sissy Spacek as Loretta Lynn in "Coalminer's Daughter" said;

"Don't NOBODY sing like Patsy Cline!" wink
Whitefang
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#2941938 - 08/08/18 06:09 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: whitefang]
Winston Psmith Offline
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To Surfergirl - Anyone who can sing & play Country, can really sing & play! My respect!

Back on topic, more or less.

In response to some comments by p90jr and Skipclone, a few stray thoughts from your resident Experimentalist.

I don't think cutting-edge tech is for everyone, anymore than I think cutting-edge Music is for everyone; more often, the opposite is true. As Surfergirl points out, her band plays mostly covers, and that keeps people dancing. And, like p90jr says, Rock was originally escapist Dance Music; there is no deep, subversive message in tunes like Sweet Little 16, Rock Around The Clock, or even Louie, Louie, where you could still dance to it, even if you had no idea what they were singing about!

Embracing the 'new' purely for its own sake isn't always a step forward. I can't really see Don Giovanni being improved by Auto-Tune, for example, anymore than I'd want to hear Buddy Guy playing a Ring Mod; what would be the point?

By the same token, I don't feel like everyone should run out and grab the nearest new toy, or new gimmick, not unless whatever it is calls to you in some way. Yes, the learning curve can be steep, and bringing the most out of new tech takes time, effort and commitment . . . much like learning to play the Guitar. I just wish people, in this case other players, were more open to some of the possibilities new gear, and new tech, represent.
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#2941988 - 08/08/18 09:57 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Winston Psmith]
DocPate Offline
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I can picture Les Paul reading this thread and laughing his a** off. Saying heck, if I could change the guitar world with a slab of swamp Ash, and Leo could take his knowledge of electronics and do what he did, what's wrong with you folks?

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#2942004 - 08/08/18 10:49 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: DocPate]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Originally Posted By: DocPate
I can picture Les Paul reading this thread and laughing his a** off. Saying heck, if I could change the guitar world with a slab of swamp Ash, and Leo could take his knowledge of electronics and do what he did, what's wrong with you folks?


Exactly!!! At one point, both Les' and Leo's designs were considered radical innovations; now they're institutions.

FWIW, the ARP Avatar, which marks the beginning of Guitar Synth systems, came out in 1977, 41 years ago. True, it was a spectacular failure, but it still marks a turning point. Roland's GR-50, which set the standard for the 13-pin Hex Pickup systems we're still using, came out in 1988, 30 years ago. Mass-produced 7-string Guitars and other ERG's have been around since the 90's, Electric Baritones & 6-string Basses have been around since the days of Surf Guitar: we're not talking bleeding-edge tech here, some of this stuff has been around longer than things we see in use everyday, like laptop computers with recording software, Digital Delays, Amp Modelers or clip-on Tuners.

You (the collective 'you') don't have to play Metal on a 7- or 8-string Guitar, and you don't have to make unusual, unnatural sounds on a Guitar Synth, but if you never even try them you'll never find a place for them in your Music. If you already know that your Music has no place for them, I can respect that -see back to my remarks on Don Giovanni and Buddy Guy - but if you're seriously wondering where new sounds or new Music is going to come from, why not start with yourself?
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#2942010 - 08/08/18 11:18 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Winston Psmith]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Quote:
Embracing the 'new' purely for its own sake isn't always a step forward. I can't really see Don Giovanni being improved by Auto-Tune, for example, anymore than I'd want to hear Buddy Guy playing a Ring Mod; what would be the point?


I have often made a similar point regarding retelling tales in other media, such as when a book gets adapted for a film.

...but back to Don Giovanni...

I dislike Autotune the way many people (over)use it these days, but I can easily imagine a skilled electronic musician (or a group of them) redoing the entire opera in an updated form that included the use (but not abuse) of Autotune. I can think of a few who, solo or in a collective, could surprise us all with such a reinterpretation if they were so moved.

(Some, like Robert Fripp, Matt Bellamy and Moby even play guitar...)

I don’t think it will happen, though. Most are more interested in following their own guide stars, not looking back.


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (08/08/18 11:18 AM)
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#2942044 - 08/08/18 02:12 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Winston Psmith]
picker Offline
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Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
To Surfergirl - Anyone who can sing & play Country, can really sing & play! My respect!

Shucks, back when dinosaurs ruled the Earth, you couldn't be a country singer if you couldn't swat out rhythm chords on an acoustic while singing. And, you had to wear a cowboy hat too!
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#2942108 - 08/09/18 04:23 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: picker]
whitefang Offline
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And I too, would say "New" don't always work for everybody. Take Hendrix for example...

Sure, what he did at that time WAS "new" in approach, but he was the only one successfully doing it. Anyone else who tried were rejected by listeners for being mere "copycats" . Once you have a "unique" newcomer, it's best to leave them be alone in that status. Others will never really care about, "The new JIMI", or "the new ERIC", due to the idea that since we already have THEM, then why do we NEED the "new" ones? wink

I liked the bit about dancing up there, as it's been a joking point musically for years, as in supporting the idea that commercially played and distributed music shouldn't be rejected because it's hard to dance to.( "it's got a GOOD BEAT, Dick, and it's easy to dance to, so I'll give it an 85!" ) But still, in spite of all that(And since I dance like ST. VITUS, I've always used that argument too) people STILL went to bars and clubs and danced to whatever they could. So I suppose it depended on what kind of audience you wished to draw, or the kind of VENUES opened to you otherwise in deciding the music you wished to play.
Whitefang
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#2942183 - 08/09/18 11:14 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: MisterLutherMan]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Welcome MisterLutherMan
Nice lesson, clear and easy to follow.
That seems like a good nexus to mention something I have thought for a while but, even for myself is hard to say. I am 100% sure that guitar is here to stay for the foreseeable future. But the real endangered species is guitar solos. I still love great solos. But that was not the foundation of guitar and, unless some version of heavily synthesized ambient music takes off, I don`t see how it`s going to continue-even discounting flavor of the month pop trends. As melodically expressive as the guitar is, the harmonic possibilities are simply more diverse-actually that`s not only for guitar.
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#2942185 - 08/09/18 11:31 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: whitefang]
skipclone 1 Offline
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RE Whitefang`s dance comment-there was a rock club in Tokyo called Current, I was invited by a friend. Well imagine my shock-it was a DANCE club, with hard rock music. The bartender was reportedly a friend of Dave Mustaine. At first I was like, wtf-what have you gotten me into. I was an equally alien presence among the sea of black T-shirts. I think my air guitar skills won them over-I didn`t bother mentioning that I really played. After a few visits I was sold. A year or so later they closed, truly a loss.
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#2942220 - 08/09/18 03:10 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: DocPate]
p90jr Offline
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Originally Posted By: DocPate
I can picture Les Paul reading this thread and laughing his a** off. Saying heck, if I could change the guitar world with a slab of swamp Ash, and Leo could take his knowledge of electronics and do what he did, what's wrong with you folks?


And might I point out that in both cases their products were used "incorrectly" as far as what they intended people to do with them.

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#2942225 - 08/09/18 03:32 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: skipclone 1]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
RE Whitefang`s dance comment-there was a rock club in Tokyo called Current, I was invited by a friend. Well imagine my shock-it was a DANCE club, with hard rock music. The bartender was reportedly a friend of Dave Mustaine. At first I was like, wtf-what have you gotten me into. I was an equally alien presence among the sea of black T-shirts. I think my air guitar skills won them over-I didn`t bother mentioning that I really played. After a few visits I was sold. A year or so later they closed, truly a loss.


There are/were other clubs like that around the world. I found one in San Antonio that had a dedicated dance floor positioned so that it doubled as an elevated viewing platform for the club’s band stage.. Every once in a while, if you’d go there on a non-show night, you could see people doing two steps and line dances to the likes of Black Sabbath or LA Guns.
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#2942296 - 08/10/18 04:34 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
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@ p90jr. :

I guess ALL "long time" guitar makers could also make that "used incorrectly" line, as most never saw the comings of guys like PETE TOWNSHEND or JIMI and others using the onstage destruction of their instruments as "entertainment". wink I doubt THAT was intended either.
Whitefang
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#2942303 - 08/10/18 06:08 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: whitefang]
DocPate Offline
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Something I've noticed over the years when attending a local place featuring live music, if the band played something original and unique, the audience would begin to ask for more covers. I suppose the majority of the listening world prefers to hear music they know.

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#2942316 - 08/10/18 07:39 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
@ p90jr. :

I guess ALL "long time" guitar makers could also make that "used incorrectly" line, as most never saw the comings of guys like PETE TOWNSHEND or JIMI and others using the onstage destruction of their instruments as "entertainment". wink I doubt THAT was intended either.
Whitefang


I never cared for the on stage destruction of guitars, even when done by Stevie, Jimi and others. I would think that they would have more respect for the instrument that brought them fame (i.e. the Stratocaster). Especially when thinking about Leo's Birthday today! cool
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#2942327 - 08/10/18 08:24 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
I never cared for the on stage destruction of guitars, even when done by Stevie, Jimi and others. I would think that they would have more respect for the instrument that brought them fame (i.e. the Stratocaster). Especially when thinking about Leo's Birthday today! cool


I think it was a very short period. I saw The Who in 67 or 68 at the Hollywood Bowl & there was no trashing on that gig.
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#2942344 - 08/10/18 09:15 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: DocPate]
p90jr Offline
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Originally Posted By: DocPate
Something I've noticed over the years when attending a local place featuring live music, if the band played something original and unique, the audience would begin to ask for more covers. I suppose the majority of the listening world prefers to hear music they know.


Yes, this is the brutal truth of it.

And here's how things changed, overall (excuse a bottled up rant):

Before the early 90s, we still did what I call "The Beatles approach." A headlining gig at a local bar was usually 2 or 3 hours, 2 or 3 sets, and you played covers - your own take on classic songs or songs that fit your sound - in with originals. If you only had 5 good original songs, you played them and a bunch of other great songs, and as you got better at writing songs and as the audience heard them more and more and wanted to hear them, you shifted to emphasizing the original material in the places that were familiar with you. A band I knew back then, Better Than Ezra, played to thousands here in town and then repeated that throughout the region, to the point where self-released tapes and CDs sold in the upper tens of thousands, which of course made a major record label want to get in on that...

Post-Nirvana, things kind of changed... instead of a show at a local club being an opening set from one band and 2 or 3 from a headliner as described above, it became 3 or 4 bands playing 40-minute sets of all-originals, right from the start, whether they learned to write good songs or not... whether the crowd knew or responded to them or not... and by the sheer governing rule of quantity versus quality I watched interest in live music among regular club goers decline... as a promoter/talent-buyer, people would ask "what time will the local band be finished?" so they could avoid sitting through them... then they started to complain that more and more of the national touring acts coming through weren't good... until it became a real struggle to get anybody to shows, period, because they began to associate rock shows with boredom instead of "fun" and they'd rather go to the local watering hole with a DJ or jukebox... so I started putting bands in those places, and it worked until the rule of quantity versus quality again screwed it up and people would leave when they alked up and saw a band's gear in the corner.

How has this affected me?

It's reinforced what I came into playing music believing: the act is there to entertain and connect with the audience, the audience is not there to validate and stroke the act's ego. This was the point of "punk rock," I thought... now people in that world are the worst offenders.

It's made me aware of "appearance" and "presentation." A lot of touring bands show up looking like panhandlers... not having showered in a week, in filthy, wrinkled clothes, looking haggard and hungover as hell and with gear held together by duct tape. "Hey, we're on the road, man... it's tough..." This is a turn off to someone being asked to hand over $10-15 to see them. I was raised by Jazz musicians... "dress like you belong onstage" was always in the back of my mind, anyway, but yeah, dress like you belong onstage. A friend of mine who owns a venue here has a sign in the dressing room saying "SHOWS WILL BE CANCELLED IF ANYBODY IN A BAND TAKES THE STAGE IN SHORTS. THE FOLLOWING DRUMMERS ARE EXCLUDED FROM THIS RULE: JOHN BONHAM. APPLIES TO ALL OTHERS." I once played an acoustic cover gig with that same guy at a crappy Daiquiri bar... an older couple was walking out as I walked in with a guitar case... they stopped and said "Are you playing here, tonight?" I said "yeah... have you seen me play someplace else or..." "No, but I can tell you're a real musician... you know how? You're dressed like it... you're wearing pants. Most of the guys who play here look like they just mowed the lawn and then rode the mower over here to play crappy songs..."

As a side note: non-musicians (who make up most of the audience, since musicians usually can't afford the cover charge) don't care about gear... and it's kind of a peeve of mine that gear is the visual focus of some many bands... spare guitars on stands in front of the band pointing towards the audience... hulking stacks of unnecessary speaker cabs... pedal boards the size of sofas, with the "pedal board operator" on his knees hunched over them 85% of the show (Radiohead and that guy in Battles get a pass for making interesting sounds when they do this, as opposed to nothing you can actually hear). I played bass for a band of guys older than me when I was 19, and the singer would bring this relatively thin black fabric and cover all of the amps when we played... he thought it looked cooler, I liked that it focused everything on the band members.

And "perform." I was watching a Canadian documentary series on youtube about Tribute bands (I play in one, now...) and there was an episode where Miles Copeland, former manager of the Police (brother of drummer Stewart Copeland) and former owner of IRS Records (home of R.E.M., The Go Go's, and lots of others) decided to assemble the best, most realistic Police tribute band, which he would manage and book... there was already a band his brother had actually sat in with and regarded as the best, and L.A. band called Fall Out, and the bassist/singer and guitarist did easily win the gig, but thought the drummer was technically perfect... "my brother plays drums like a madman... that was a key part of The Police live! He's a maniac..." Fall Out's drummer and the others who auditioned "had no charisma..." A guy from Germany showed up and played the part and got the gig.

Not every band is The Police or that frenetic, not every great musician is an extrovert... but I do believe what Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth once said: "People pay to watch people with more confidence than they have." Develop a game face. One of the local watering holes I mentioned earlier had an act come through on tour... they had great reviews, were on a hip record label and had airplay on college radio. It was one guy who sat on the floor (there was no stage in this bar) with a laptop and a synth and held a mic in one hand... after 3/4s of the first song the audience lost visual interest... they were "grooving" to the music but this was no different in execution from a DJ, so they weren't focused on him and were talking, but would applaud after every song and cheer... after 5 songs he threw a fit into the mic about how people should shut up and pay attention to him... this made the crowd boo... my buddy who owned the place walked over and told him to stop, he would pay him everything he was promised but it wasn't a good fit... I heard the guy say "You need a stage," to which my friend responded, "You need an act!"

I play in a tribute band (I've actually done tons of tribute shows over the years, but this is an ongoing thing)... a couple of weeks ago we hit big rooms in Houston and Dallas on a package with two other tribute bands. Musician friends of mine from both cities came out to see me... only one of them said something to the effect of "do you feel like a cheesy sell-out up there doing that?" My answer was "I feel like someone who just made 3 thousand people very happy with music." When I've been hired as a sideman for people with records I've "covered" what was there (and I witnessed people who refused to do that be shown the exit very swiftly)... when I work with songwriters I'm not playing music that I wrote and do what they ask (and I've seen people who fought that and insisted on their input being equal, who were swiftly shown the exit). This Kurt Cobain-inspired uncompromising "original" artiste thing is a problem... oh, and Nirvana's first single? A cover of "Love Buzz" by The Shocking Blue... because Kurt Cobain wasn't infected with Kurt Cobain-disease.

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#2942366 - 08/10/18 11:06 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: DocPate]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Loc: The Great Spirit's Handprint o...
Originally Posted By: DocPate
Something I've noticed over the years when attending a local place featuring live music, if the band played something original and unique, the audience would begin to ask for more covers. I suppose the majority of the listening world prefers to hear music they know.


As Frank Zappa once said, "Most people don't know what they like, they like what they know."
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#2942369 - 08/10/18 11:23 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: p90jr]
Winston Psmith Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 3523
Loc: Inside the Beltway
Originally Posted By: p90jr
I was raised by Jazz musicians... "dress like you belong onstage" was always in the back of my mind, anyway, but yeah, dress like you belong onstage. "No, but I can tell you're a real musician... you know how? You're dressed like it... you're wearing pants. Most of the guys who play here look like they just mowed the lawn and then rode the mower over here to play crappy songs..."


Excuse me for truncating your comments, but I rail about this constantly. One night, I got a remark very much like that. "You must be a Musician. You're the only one here who's dressed."

I've also seen gear heads who essentially ignore their audience, while hunched over a pile of boxes that no one can really see: it might be somewhat more interesting if there were a mirror overhead, so you could see what they were doing. I arrange all my sounds and settings before a show, so I don't have to waste time turning knobs, or trying to remember which patch is the next sound I need.

IMHO, dressing well, making sure that your gear is in order, and engaging your audience are all about the same thing: respect. You show respect for yourself and your audience by looking good and acknowledging them, you show respect for your craft by performing well, and maintaining your Instrument. Otherwise, just stay home and stop making the rest of us look bad.
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#2942373 - 08/10/18 11:50 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3160
Originally Posted By: Caevan O'Shite
Originally Posted By: DocPate
Something I've noticed over the years when attending a local place featuring live music, if the band played something original and unique, the audience would begin to ask for more covers. I suppose the majority of the listening world prefers to hear music they know.


As Frank Zappa once said, "Most people don't know what they like, they like what they know."


Well, let's think of music as a language... people who know the language can appreciate and be rewarded by something new...

People who don't know the language are lost... like if you watch a foreign language film without subtitles... how involved are you going to stay in watching it?

A lot of my favorite music is too out there for the majority of people... I don't expect them to like it and I don't expect to force it on them.

Also, historically, look at the voyage popular music took in the 60s and 70s and you can maybe include parts of the 80s... everybody, collectively, was along for the ride from "Johnny B Goode" and "Louie Louie" to "Sgt. Pepper" and "Pet Sounds" and on to "Dark Side of The Moon" and "Maggot Brain" to, what, "The Wall" or wherever you want to put the mark of the decline of musical civilization or whatever... your average, non-musician listener took that step by step and had their horizons broadened to liking and accepting more and more complicated music. The Beatles didn't start with "A Day in the Life." A question I think about is if they had continued touring would they have thought to go there, or would the practicality of making stuff that would please a crowd when replicated by 4 simply have kept them from experimenting (they were still opening their last tour with Chuck Berry covers).

I do believe that the cutting of music appreciation for grade school kids ("impractical waste of money") and music education programs overall has created a few generations now of people who don't have the groundwork to appreciate anything but the crudest, simplest melodies... and popular music has become 98% rhythm as a result... as in, records are 98% drum machine patterns with one-to-three note bass parts.

My favorite Zappa quote is
"Art is making something and then convincing someone else to buy it."

The most successful artists are usually the best salesmen and not the most gifted craftsmen.

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