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#2943656 - 08/17/18 07:54 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 11771
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: whitefang
S'OK Larry. Just havin' a bit of fun. But, DID you (or anyone else) recall that ELO flap? I remember it causing a BIG "Stir". Cost them quite a few fans too.

And how many remember that TV show back in the early '80's in which people would come on and have lip sync "competitions"?

And didn't they recently resurrect that concept?

Recall too, that despite any opinions of them, the singing group THREE DOG NIGHT hated the idea of "lip-sync" and whenever they'd appear on BANDSTAND or any other show in which it was common practice, they would clearly intentionally be messing up. wink
Whitefang


I never really followed ELO's controversy(s) but I did like their music. They were one of the 1st bands accused of lip syncing as they were using recorded orchestra backing tracks in live performances. They had a "Zoom" tour too LOL! But, I think they were just trying to present their original sound from the studio recordings to the audience in their live concerts. I think many bands have had to follow this concept when they produce things in the studio that they can't or have a hard time duplicating on stage (I heard Moody Blues may have had this problem)…

I remember reading an article on Lyndsey Buckingham where he had to go back and practice and develop his sound live, with what Fleetwood Mac did in the studio, so he could duplicate his sound on stage without using any recorded tracks...it was a major task and it is why you see so many different amps and speakers on stage when he performed... cool
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#2943794 - 08/18/18 04:30 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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The Moody Blues( as I understand it) were one of the earliest rock bands at the time to take electronic synth stuff onstage( early MOOG and a Mellotron ) in order to, in live performance, closely replicate what was done in the studio.

A buddy of mine that was stationed in Okinawa in the early '70's said too, it took THREE DAYS for a crew to haul all of PINK FLOYD'S equipment( amps and electronic synth stuff) up a mountainside for a concert there( about the "Meddle" period, if memory serves...)
Whitefang
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#2943813 - 08/18/18 07:48 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Loc: Northern California
Trying to capture the recorded sounds from the studio, live on stage, is noteworthy! cool
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#2943815 - 08/18/18 07:56 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Larryz]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
Trying to capture the recorded sounds from the studio, live on stage, is noteworthy! cool


One of that bands that I play in, now, on the "tribute band" circuit, doesn't do the "dress up and try to look like the band whose songs we're playing" thing but rather the "close your eyes and you'd swear you were hearing the record" approach. It seems to be working so far... and the other groups attempting the music of this band do the opposite,

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#2943820 - 08/18/18 08:25 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: p90jr]
Larryz Offline
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Loc: Northern California
+1 Just having the look will only work if you have the chops to go with it! I went to see Asleep at the Wheel for the 2nd time last night. My kids bought my wife and I tickets in the 2nd row center stage. I was watching Ray Benson's guitar work up close and personal and he hit every note just like he did 48 years ago as did the steel guitar player. The rest of the band were all kids in comparison to the two old guys. They too, hit every note just like the original recordings (with some true improvisation thrown in). It's a real tribute to Bob Wills band! Still going strong today from back in the 70's, when I 1st hitched my wagon to a star! I have great respect for the tribute bands like yours that can capture the classic tunes! To include the originals that are still out there with new players! cool
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#2943944 - 08/19/18 04:43 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Loc: Japan
I went through a phase where `improvisation is king`-but I never agreed with a lot of my friends who thought every song should be personalized. That`s even aside from those riffs- like `Walk This Way`-that are a signature of the song. If ya can`t play it, just admit it grin . To be able to play it just like the recording is very kool as well- and to combine both styles is an evening rocks hard.
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#2943951 - 08/19/18 06:43 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: skipclone 1]
Larryz Offline
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Loc: Northern California
+1 Certain songs like Pretty Woman, Secret Agent Man, Day Tripper, Memphis, Johnny B. Goode, Brown Eyed Girl, etc., have a guitar riff or an intro that must be included in the presentation. I like to improvise leads and arrange tunes and do my own thing with the rhythm and chords. I will try and incorporate the melody in my leads as well...for the most part my leads and improvisation have suffered as I've been playing solo. When I get the chance to play with my buddies, I start taking a lead now and then just to keep the Guitar World Alive! cool
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#2944063 - 08/20/18 03:34 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Well, I've never heard of any "carved in stone" rules to how a solo should be created and played, so do what you can do. wink
Whitefang
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#2944067 - 08/20/18 05:18 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: whitefang]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Oh, I`ve heard of a carved in stone rule. It`s called an audience grin
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#2944217 - 08/21/18 04:17 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: skipclone 1]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
Oh, I`ve heard of a carved in stone rule. It`s called an audience grin


Well, I thought the post previous to mine was about something else, but true, audiences DO want to hear a "record-like" replication from whatever band is playing whichever tune. My ex used to work in a bar that had live music, and VERY few bands(mostly one; TOBY REDD) got away with NOT sounding "just like the record". wink
Whitefang
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#2944224 - 08/21/18 06:30 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: whitefang]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Posts: 8302
Loc: Japan
Well there are venues where people go specifically to hear original, or at least non-standard bar music. Some of those places stretch the definition of `bar`-I`m not even sure all of them serve alcohol. But the music is generally high quality, if at times obscure.

Actually there is just such a place in Tokyo, called Commune 2nd. The first version was in a different place, and just Commune. It`s a group of food vendors, with no central management, who assemble and offer a variety of options-including beer. Then next to them, there is a big tent, which is heated in winter. Hot wine is also available then. There`s a stage, and the music I`ve seen tends toward one or two people, one of whom has a looper. I met a Japanese friend there early this year, and we were trying to figure out what language the performer was singing in. We finally decided it wasn`t a language, more like vocal effects.


Edited by skipclone 1 (08/21/18 06:39 AM)
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#2944237 - 08/21/18 07:35 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: skipclone 1]
Larryz Offline
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Loc: Northern California
You can't play it just like the record if you are going to improvise. Tribute bands have my respect as they can play it just like the record. There are two schools of thought and a never ending discussion in this regard. Follow your heart... cool
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#2944252 - 08/21/18 08:53 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
Oh, I`ve heard of a carved in stone rule. It`s called an audience grin


Well, I thought the post previous to mine was about something else, but true, audiences DO want to hear a "record-like" replication from whatever band is playing whichever tune. My ex used to work in a bar that had live music, and VERY few bands(mostly one; TOBY REDD) got away with NOT sounding "just like the record". wink
Whitefang


I think a better interpretation of Skip's remark is that an audience is a very strong, though of course not perfect, evaluation of musical entertainment.
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#2944256 - 08/21/18 09:49 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: d]
DocPate Offline
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Registered: 01/11/16
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To the record labels, the audience is everything.

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#2944275 - 08/21/18 11:05 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: p90jr]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: p90jr
Originally Posted By: Larryz
Trying to capture the recorded sounds from the studio, live on stage, is noteworthy! cool


One of that bands that I play in, now, on the "tribute band" circuit, doesn't do the "dress up and try to look like the band whose songs we're playing" thing but rather the "close your eyes and you'd swear you were hearing the record" approach. It seems to be working so far... and the other groups attempting the music of this band do the opposite,


S0O0O0O0O0 much hard work and focus; commendable! You have my applause.
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#2944820 - 08/24/18 11:26 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Winston Psmith]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
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Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
Let me turn the question around, if I may.

How many of us are using any effects designed and built in this century?


I just played a gig last night with my trumpet playing occasional collaborator. I used my new ElectroHarmonix Mel9 on this gig. I thought it worked with what I was doing amazingly well, which was ambient, droney loops of guitar, with a lot of processing. My conclusion is that this will become a standard part of my rig, but I need to mount it where I can get at it, since I was moving between flute, cello, strings, low choir & high choir rapidly the whole time. What a great evocation of the wonderfully cheesy timbre of the Mellotron samples.

Quote:
When is the last time you tried some Instrument, Device or technique that was completely unfamiliar?


I didn't end up doing it at last night's gig, due to wanting to only carry one guitar & not feeling I have the vocabulary under control just yet, but in the last few weeks I have been exploring, for the first time in 50+ years of playing, open D tuning. It's a wonderful exploration to suddenly have the familiar landscape shift under my fingers. I'm having fun, learning a lot, & stretching my mind a bunch.
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#2944900 - 08/24/18 05:46 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Scott Fraser]
Dannyalcatraz Online   content
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Registered: 07/28/04
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Quote:
How many of us are using any effects designed and built in this century?

Good question...and one I’m ill prepared to answer! I don’t really pay attention to when stuff first hits the market.

I will say that I own a few of the EHX 9 pedals and intend to complete the set. Other unusual things? I’ve been buying TWA pedals- Little Dipper & Triskelion so far, Dynamorph not too far off- ThorpyFX dirt pedals, a Keeley Echophase, a phototheremin pedal and the WMD Geiger Counter, to name a few.

But how many of my pedals can truly be considered new as opposed to being revisions of older designs I cannot say.
Quote:
When is the last time you tried some Instrument, Device or technique that was completely unfamiliar?

I’m primarily a vocalist who plays some other instruments. I can legitimately call myself a cellist of sorts, but I gave it up after 20 years when I fell in love with guitar. I play a little bass, too.

I have a small xylophone bought maybe 10 years ago that I fiddle with on occasion.

The most recent new thing I own is my ReacTable app, which I got maybe 5 or so years ago.

It is a scaled down but still quite versatile and powerful version of the ReacTable synthesizer. One day, I’d love to own the real deal, but those really are table sized, and cost several thousand dollars. The app costs a fraction of that, works on any portable Apple or Android device, and functions in exactly he same way as the big boy.



Edited by Dannyalcatraz (08/24/18 05:54 PM)
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#2944916 - 08/24/18 07:50 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: DocPate]
Delta Offline
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Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 321
Loc: Ormond Beach, FL
The long and winding road. I'll try to get back to the original question that started this thread in the first place. The guitar world isn't dead by any means, but it's only as vibrant as those who play the instrument. There are many good players out there today, but originality is sorely lacking.
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#2944942 - 08/25/18 04:43 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Delta]
whitefang Offline
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Y'know Delta?.....

You seem to be right, and I too, can't figure that out. Dig....

Back in the early days of Rock'N'Roll it wasn't uncommon to see record labels trying to "copycat" some other label's success or their own with "clones" of successful artists. ie: All the ELVIS "look-alikes" and sound alikes that followed HIM after he hit it big. Same thing happened with THE BEATLES. But I thought that all ended by the late '60's when it seemed that NOBODY was trying to copy anyone else. All the "top guys" at the time had NO similarities save just long hair, and nobody's long hair looked the same as someone else's. Watch the WOODSTOCK documentary(ot MONTEREY POP if you wish) and you'll both see AND hear what I mean. But that vibe somehow disappeared by the '80's, and for proof, think of the last GRAMMY telecast you ever saw. OR the what I call the "Spandex Ballet" metal groups of the time. Like, without the videos superimposing the name of both the band and tune, with eyes closed( or open) I could never really tell any of them apart. wink
And by the 90's, although there were several bands I liked, there too, wre many who sounded AND looked like GREENDAY.
Whitefang
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#2944979 - 08/25/18 07:41 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Delta]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Thanks to Delta for an insightful comment, and to Scott Fraser and Dannyalcatraz for finally addressing some of the questions I asked, a while back.

Let me amend a mis-impression I may created; I don't believe that every advancement in Music depends on some new toy, or some new tech. Delta's comment regarding originality still rings true. Many great, influential players created new sounds and new forms of expression with stock gear, by changing the way they thought about using the instrument, and yes, sometimes by re-designing it.

If you live within driving distance of a Guitar Center, you have access to just about any new or recent gear, at least for mainstream suppliers. You can try anything, you don't have to buy it, but you can at least look into something new, enough to have an idea what it does and how it might suit you! If you have a working Guitar on hand right now, especially if you have more than one Guitar, you can try a new tuning, a new style of playing, a new set of string gauges for a different sound.

Waiting for the next Big Name Act to bring us something new - it's not going to happen, that's not how mass marketing works, it's not prone to risk-taking, and any new form of artistic expression is a risk. You want to hear something new, you want to see the Guitar pushed forward somehow, get behind your own damned Guitar, and push! I'm sick to death of hearing how there's nothing good and new, while we drag this Forum into the Nostalgia ditch over and over. Yes, The Beatles were innovators in their time, so was Hendrix, so was Charlie Christian, but how long have they been gone? Do something new, try something new, go listen to something new, or accept that you're just complaining to hear yourself complain.

I expect I'll be unwelcome in here for a while. My apologies, but . . .
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#2944984 - 08/25/18 07:59 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Winston Psmith]
Larryz Offline
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Loc: Northern California
You'll always be welcome here Brother Winston. Sometimes we have to agree and sometimes we have to agree to disagree. I know what music I love and it's nothing passed '95 so far. I do keep an ear out though and I'm not complaining...


On the new side, I do have a new tech and I just had 5 guitars set up. He did a great job! I have been searching for the right strings before taking them all in and finally found the gauge and the ones I like. 10-50 pure nickel rollerwound by GHS Eric Johnson signature set. I put them on my electrics and acoustics. I also switched from a wound 3rd to a plain one. This was a long standing rule of mine (like forever). But I now have less squeak and more flex for bends.


I don't resist change but I also go back to my old days. Like giving up all those pedals and just going straight in with just a touch of reverb from the amp. Staying with the clean concept that I have always loved best. Yes, I'm getting old and going back to the future LOL! I know what I love and enjoy about playing my music. Getting together with my old music buddies from back in '65 this afternoon for a jam is another of my favorite things to do...we'll be playing a lot of old stuff today too LOL! cool
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#2944987 - 08/25/18 08:08 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Winston Psmith]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Well I think my comment touched on the same point-maybe phrased a little more-ahem-cordially... grin
But there`s a flip side to that coin. Mass marketing interests don`t care who comes up with anything. They care about what sells. I know this is one of my `here he goes again` topics. But it`s a fact. I`m not a fan of hip hop. But those performers are WAY smarter about the money game than previous generations. They will collaborate with anyone and everyone, if it means a hit song. They will team up on a tour with five other artists, the way local club bands usually play.
You can come up with something totally from outer space, new and exciting. But it`s like having an expensive sports car-the costs don`t stop just because you bought it. You have to protect it from theft. The minute someone hears something new, they will start figuring out what it is. Someone else will figure out how to sell it. That is how mass marketing works. You invented it, but you are competing against your own invention. That is why big-budget productions borrow from spy technology.
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#2945004 - 08/25/18 09:33 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: surfergirl]
DocPate Offline
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Registered: 01/11/16
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Loc: Virginia
It's interesting that this came up in my news feed today

https://consequenceofsound-net.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/consequenceofsound.net/2018/08/are-gimmicks-and-antics-turning-rock-and-roll-into-a-joke/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fconsequenceofsound.net%2F2018%2F08%2Fare-gimmicks-and-antics-turning-rock-and-roll-into-a-joke%2F

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#2945021 - 08/25/18 12:12 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Winston Psmith]
Dannyalcatraz Online   content
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5752
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
Thanks to Delta for an insightful comment, and to Scott Fraser and Dannyalcatraz for finally addressing some of the questions I asked, a while back.

Let me amend a mis-impression I may created; I don't believe that every advancement in Music depends on some new toy, or some new tech. Delta's comment regarding originality still rings true. Many great, influential players created new sounds and new forms of expression with stock gear, by changing the way they thought about using the instrument, and yes, sometimes by re-designing it.

If you live within driving distance of a Guitar Center, you have access to just about any new or recent gear, at least for mainstream suppliers. You can try anything, you don't have to buy it, but you can at least look into something new, enough to have an idea what it does and how it might suit you! If you have a working Guitar on hand right now, especially if you have more than one Guitar, you can try a new tuning, a new style of playing, a new set of string gauges for a different sound.

Waiting for the next Big Name Act to bring us something new - it's not going to happen, that's not how mass marketing works, it's not prone to risk-taking, and any new form of artistic expression is a risk. You want to hear something new, you want to see the Guitar pushed forward somehow, get behind your own damned Guitar, and push! I'm sick to death of hearing how there's nothing good and new, while we drag this Forum into the Nostalgia ditch over and over. Yes, The Beatles were innovators in their time, so was Hendrix, so was Charlie Christian, but how long have they been gone? Do something new, try something new, go listen to something new, or accept that you're just complaining to hear yourself complain.

I expect I'll be unwelcome in here for a while. My apologies, but . . .


Or, to put your conclusion sligthly differently:



Edited by Dannyalcatraz (08/25/18 12:12 PM)
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http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2945024 - 08/25/18 12:59 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 24882
Loc: The Great Spirit's Handprint o...
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
Thanks to Delta for an insightful comment, and to Scott Fraser and Dannyalcatraz for finally addressing some of the questions I asked, a while back.

Let me amend a mis-impression I may created; I don't believe that every advancement in Music depends on some new toy, or some new tech. Delta's comment regarding originality still rings true. Many great, influential players created new sounds and new forms of expression with stock gear, by changing the way they thought about using the instrument, and yes, sometimes by re-designing it.

If you live within driving distance of a Guitar Center, you have access to just about any new or recent gear, at least for mainstream suppliers. You can try anything, you don't have to buy it, but you can at least look into something new, enough to have an idea what it does and how it might suit you! If you have a working Guitar on hand right now, especially if you have more than one Guitar, you can try a new tuning, a new style of playing, a new set of string gauges for a different sound.

Waiting for the next Big Name Act to bring us something new - it's not going to happen, that's not how mass marketing works, it's not prone to risk-taking, and any new form of artistic expression is a risk. You want to hear something new, you want to see the Guitar pushed forward somehow, get behind your own damned Guitar, and push! I'm sick to death of hearing how there's nothing good and new, while we drag this Forum into the Nostalgia ditch over and over. Yes, The Beatles were innovators in their time, so was Hendrix, so was Charlie Christian, but how long have they been gone? Do something new, try something new, go listen to something new, or accept that you're just complaining to hear yourself complain.

I expect I'll be unwelcome in here for a while. My apologies, but . . .


Or, to put your conclusion sligthly differently:



Indeed, on both counts. cool
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#2945026 - 08/25/18 01:13 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: DocPate]
Dannyalcatraz Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5752
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: DocPate
It's interesting that this came up in my news feed today

https://consequenceofsound-net.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/consequenceofsound.net/2018/08/are-gimmicks-and-antics-turning-rock-and-roll-into-a-joke/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fconsequenceofsound.net%2F2018%2F08%2Fare-gimmicks-and-antics-turning-rock-and-roll-into-a-joke%2F


Interesting read. But it reinforces my personal perception that audiences are in no small part to blame.

The collective “we” are less likely than ever before to break a band via grassroots fandom- “we” are more dependent than ever on A&R types to bring us the next big thing. “We” are too scared to venture off the gold record paved roads into the more dangerous portions of the Land of Ahhhs.

Amplifying WPS’s point, it has been a good 15+ years since I went to hear live music in a club. Yeah, I’ve been to rock concerts for bands I know and like, and I’ve accidentally stumbled into an open mic night or two, but I haven’t gone to a nightclub for the expressed purpose of hearing new, local music in forever and a day.

That isn’t to say my music hunt is moribund- I find new bands all the time. But I’m definitely not on the cutting edge in my early 50s like I was in my early 20s.

Now, I AM more likely to experiment in my personal musicianship now than I was then...but that’s a fraction of a mere blip on the radar, because I don’t gigor record my stuff. It’s very likely that whatever genuinely good innovations I may find will simply die with me.


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (08/25/18 01:17 PM)
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2945030 - 08/25/18 01:27 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 900
Loc: Virginia
So, I guess AI is the next wave?



Edited by DocPate (08/25/18 01:27 PM)

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#2945102 - 08/25/18 11:47 PM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: DocPate]
skipclone 1 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 8302
Loc: Japan
A well-stated synopsis of what`s going on, and where to place most of the blame:
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Same old surprises, brand new cliches-

Skipsounds on Soundclick:
www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491

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#2945108 - 08/26/18 04:36 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: skipclone 1]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 11406
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
As for new technology and all that, I went through the same thing in regards to photography. I spent too many years and much time and expense learning to work my 35mm SLRs to where I can create the kind of images I wanted to by knowing how to set all the dials, buttons and whatever to make it happen. And after all this time, I STILL haven't bothered with digital photography and it's "point and shoot, create the image you want by selecting a setting, do it all FOR you" usage.

Just like most of us(and mostly you guys) didn't take all that time and struggle to learn your way around a fretboard and how to finger chords only later in life buy some gadget(maybe) to clamp on to your fretboard and hit a button and it does it all FOR you, or an entire "guitar" that requires only your hanging it on your neck and turning it on. Did you? wink
Whitefang
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I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2945122 - 08/26/18 07:37 AM Re: Is The Guitar World Dead hi [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 11771
Loc: Northern California
Thanks Skip, very interesting video! cool
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Take care, Larryz

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