Looking at CP4 and EV ZXA1 but...

[grockvt]

Hi,

 

I need to downsize the gear without taking a huge hit on sound. So far, the CP4 and pair of EV ZXA1 plus a super light weight k&m stand plus a radial key largo seem to be able to do the job. My hesitation is that the ev and cp4 are now getting old and I would like to know if these models are being replaced soon.

 

What do you all think?

 

ps - I bought a nord electro 5 to use as a top tier drawbar organ about a month before the electro 6 came out...the electro 5 will be my top tier board in the setup.

 

Looking to lose weight and size on the dp side and the amplification side. Current amplification is quite enjoyable using acme b1 pair, toa d4 mixer, and crown amp. The acmes are 3-way, weigh roughly 30 pounds each and have mid and high frequency attenuators. No problem with sound - I'm just getting older...

[CEB]

Being that by in large new keyboards suck I don't worry about it anymore. Just because something is newer doesn't mean it is better.

[cphollis]

I'm with CEB. Yes, both are older, but so what?

 

The EV units do what they do at a great price point. Hard to see them getting superseded by better tech anytime soon. Besides, amplification gear evolves much more slowly than other parts.

 

If it were me, I'd buy the CP4 used or b-stock. At $1599 for b-stock (less if used), a great deal.

[NoLights]

Exactly what I've used for gigs (minus the Key Largo) since the CP4 first came out. I keep trying new stuff when I can, but I haven't played anything I like better.

[Reezekeys]

I would like to know if these models are being replaced soon.

Assuming someone from Yamaha was on this forum, do you think they would tell you here?

 

New models are usually announced at the trade shows. Summer NAMM shows are usually pretty sleepy but if you wait about a month you might get an answer.

 

Looking to lose weight and size on the dp side and the amplification side. Current amplification is quite enjoyable using acme b1 pair, toa d4 mixer, and crown amp. The acmes are 3-way, weigh roughly 30 pounds each and have mid and high frequency attenuators. No problem with sound - I'm just getting older...

You may not get the punch you're used to with those EVs, but if you buy from a place that allows returns or exchanges, my advice would be to give it a try. I went from carrying two Mackie SRM450s (51 lbs each) to two QSC K8s (27 lbs each), it was life changing! And that's even before considering the sound quality (which was a marked improvement). Good luck.

[grockvt]

Right - it seems there was a semi-recent price drop on the CP4 and it appear that less distributors are carrying the ZXA1 than previous. For example, I can't find the EV's on Sweetwater...so I am hoping either for another price cut or a newer, better option.

 

I am coming from a Roland RD700sx and have not had a chance to play the CP4. I hope I can find one locally to try out, but maybe I need to rely on a return policy.

[timwat]

Just a thought.

 

I used to gig a pair of Acme B1s and made the move to powered speakers (DXR8s) to save on schlep as well. I have to say, those B1s (like the very similar passive Accugroove 3ways) sounded formidable.

 

All to say, were I in your shoes I'd want to seriously compare your intended target solution (powered PA cab) A/B in the same room before you shelve the Acmes. I don't have mine anymore (gave them to my bass playing son), but they did things non of my lighter self powered speakers seem to be able to do.

 

There are certainly other solutions to your TOA mixer and crown amp. Maybe you do the Key Largo and one of there many light Class D bass amps? I don't know. The EV is certainly well-regarded and a good solution for digital piano (reliable folks here have said it's flatter across the spectrum than other similar units like the QSC). But I'd be curious to hear what sounded best to your ears if you were able to compare them side by side with your Acmes.

 

I certainly understand the desire to reduce schlep to bare acceptable minimum. The flip side is all we offer an audience is our sound, and it's hard to beat a quality-designed wood 3 way cabinet.

[Reezekeys]

There are pianists here that have played both the Roland and Yamaha actions (Dave Ferris?) and would be able to give you an informed opinion on the diffs. I hope they chime in but if not, it might be worth a separate thread.

[grockvt]

So the car I bought (sedan) is also driving this move. The seats can fold down BUT if I have the child seat installed, neither seat can fold forward due to some sort of structural safety requirement which is a good thing for safety and something I did not think of when I bought it. I gig less now as well, but maybe that changes. So I am looking for a piano that will fit in the back seat area along the floor which rules out the Rolands which have pitch bend to the left of the keybed. The CP4 and the Nord P3 both have tidy dimensions and reasonable weights ( = will fit in car), and I just don't get along with the Nord action (although I admittedly never tried the P3). I know I may lose out on that clear ACME sound, although there are also advantages to the EV being capable of a wedge mode. I calculated the cubic volume of the EVs against the ACMES, and it is at about 60%, and the weight is about 55%. The ACMES are not big at 16 x 16 x 14 by any means, and I am working on a packing puzzle and also trying to minimize trips on load in. The RCFs look nice but I can't justify those currently.

[timwat]

I remember that dilemma well...soon as you say "sedan" i remember how those little acmes always seemed to become unforgiving cubes when it came to the tetris puzzle of fitting them into my old sedan (before a deer totaled it).

 

Digital piano is such a subjective thing, but I've owned a CP4 since it came out and the action is still a pleasure to play. It's my go-to for AP-centric gigs like tomorrow's trio gig. Many (most?) pianists I know really dig the CP4's action. Sounds? That's where it gets subjective. There are several varieties of AP (3 different piano sample sets, several variations of programs within sample set), and it seems each user gravitates toward a particular "family". I think that's because of the amplification they use downstream and the rooms they play, but I could be wrong.

 

The rhodes are very usable, but there are better out there (busch's Winter Rhodes for the Kronos, which has become my 100% go to rhodes), the software stuff like Scarbee, etc. But I personally prefer the cp4's rhodes over the nord electro's, but again that's just taste (and amp, and room).

 

All to say if the CP4 is the choice partially based on fitting in your vehicle, I don't think you'll be displeased or disappointed with it when you play it on the gig.

[grockvt]

I fully intended to buy a wagon, and then bought a sedan based on the deal. I need a good rhodes, with ability to add effects on the fly...or at least be able to change delay times / feedback amount...etc

 

 

 

Yamaha CP4 39 pounds 52.44" $1999

Nord piano3 40 pounds 50.7" $2999

Roland RD 2000 48 pounds 55.62" $2499

 

 

[AnotherScott]

The CP4 and the Nord P3 both have tidy dimensions and reasonable weights ( = will fit in car), and I just don't get along with the Nord action (although I admittedly never tried the P3).

...

I need a good rhodes, with ability to add effects on the fly...or at least be able to change delay times / feedback amount...etc

Other contenders could be Korg Grandstage or Kurzweil Forte, both of which are also available in more compact 7x key actions.

[Barryjam]

I've received a couple of so-called B stock items that were so perfect that I suspect the retailer was just using that language as a way to get around minimum advertised price.

[grockvt]

Just checked out some korg grand stage demos. Seems quite good - anyone able to compare that action to a Roland rd?

[cphollis]

I've received a couple of so-called B stock items that were so perfect that I suspect the retailer was just using that language as a way to get around minimum advertised price.

 

Uhh, yup.

[grockvt]

Dave - honored that you chimed in. Have been following your journey to the cp4 and really appreciate your desire to share and help

[keyguy]

Just a thought.

 

I used to gig a pair of Acme B1s and made the move to powered speakers (DXR8s) to save on schlep as well. I have to say, those B1s (like the very similar passive Accugroove 3ways) sounded formidable.

 

All to say, were I in your shoes I'd want to seriously compare your intended target solution (powered PA cab) A/B in the same room before you shelve the Acmes. I don't have mine anymore (gave them to my bass playing son), but they did things non of my lighter self powered speakers seem to be able to do.

 

There are certainly other solutions to your TOA mixer and crown amp. Maybe you do the Key Largo and one of there many light Class D bass amps? I don't know. The EV is certainly well-regarded and a good solution for digital piano (reliable folks here have said it's flatter across the spectrum than other similar units like the QSC). But I'd be curious to hear what sounded best to your ears if you were able to compare them side by side with your Acmes.

 

I certainly understand the desire to reduce schlep to bare acceptable minimum. The flip side is all we offer an audience is our sound, and it's hard to beat a quality-designed wood 3 way cabinet.

I've tried several different powered speakers in an attempt to simplify my rig away from the Accugrooves but have been unsuccessful. Those Accugrooves still sound GREAT after all these years and I continue to use them at most every gig. You should hear the band complain when I use the Barbetta's...BTW, I use a CP4 as well, and love it.

[RABid]

The longevity of the CP4 is a testament to how respected and popular it is. If it was not that good it would have been updated two or three times by now. I went with the Roland RD2000 because I am one of the few here that prefers the Roland action over Yamaha. There are just enough of us to make it worth your while to try both keyboards before committing.

 

 

As for the EV speakers, don't worry about an upgrade. Most updates in the keyboard world are a result of faster processors and more memory. Two things that don't make much difference in Speakers. Instead of updating the ZLX Yamaha chose to release various models with different materials. The ZLX is still a great budget low weight speaker. Love mine. Sure, I could pay twice as much for a little better sound, but I don't see the need.

[CEB]

I still like the beejeebees out of the CP-300. I wouldn't want to carry one.

[grockvt]

Thanks for the input. I'm intrigued by the 73 note grandstage and also am having a really hard time classifying it as a stage piano, based on the fact that it's action comes from a workstation product. It might suit me well for Rhodes sounds which my current project would benefit from - but if I ever go back to a more organic or solo gig I will probably still need a real 88 note dp like the cp4.

[grockvt]

Regarding the ev speakers., I agree any updates don't make the previous model unusable, but what if they can add a little more power, lose a little more weight and perhaps make the inputs more versatile in the next generation.

 

[grockvt]

Just a thought.

 

I used to gig a pair of Acme B1s and made the move to powered speakers (DXR8s) to save on schlep as well. I have to say, those B1s (like the very similar passive Accugroove 3ways) sounded formidable

 

I checked out some dxr8s in person yesterday. They seem nice, and can't be used as a wedge which is kinda a deal breaker for me. Unfortunately, to this day I have never seen a zxa1 in person.

[AnotherScott]

Thanks for the input. I'm intrigued by the 73 note grandstage and also am having a really hard time classifying it as a stage piano, based on the fact that it's action comes from a workstation product.

RH3 is the action from the SV1 and the old SP250, both of which are pianos. (The version in the Kronos workstation has aftertouch, though.)

[timwat]

They seem nice, and can't be used as a wedge which is kinda a deal breaker for me.

 

FWIW, I try to never use powered PA speakers on the floor anymore. I put them on short poles that Dave Ferris referred me to:

 

Yorkville SKS02B 27" Tripod

 

The DXRs sound so much better on stands (I presume because PA speakers are designed to be used from an elevated position), bass response falls into line, they seem clearer at lower volume, etc.

 

I realize what you're saying about wedge position as personal monitor - I believe the DXR10 is the smallest of the line to allow for this - but if you're using a powered PA cabinet to project to the audience at all, you may want to consider the advantage of a short pole mount.

[JB Sherry]

+1 on NOT putting a powered speaker on the floor. I have a DSR112 (the predecessor to the DXR12, though theyre still in the product lineup). It has a cabinet designed to allow use as a wedge, but even extreme application of the CP4 eq cant remedy the resulting sound. The boost from the acoustic coupling goes into the low-mids, requiring extreme EQing that results in an unatural sound.

 

This is likely to be true of most powered speakers. The cabinet may be designed for positioning as a wedge, but the acoustic design is optimized for pole-mounting.

[Reezekeys]

Just thinking out loud but don't those DSP profiles in the new QSC K speakers have a corrective eq setting to compensate for acoustic coupling when used as a wedge, since they are designed to be used both pole-mounted and on the floor? I would think the engineers thought of this.

[Al Quinn]

I believe you're right. My TT08A's also have a switch for floor vs. pole mount applications. I've used them both ways and the switch does what's needed.

[Mjazz]

Note that on the ZxA1-90 model, the horn has a 90-degree by 50-degree dispersion pattern, and it can be rotated in the cabinet if desired. As shipped, the 90-degree axis is horizontal when the speaker is standing upright. For wedge use, might be good to rotate it. (The other ZxA1 model, ZxA1-100, has a 100-degree by 100-degree horn, so it's the same pattern in either orientation. Not sure they still make that.)

 

I use two ZxA1-90's (on poles) with my CP4, like them a lot.

 

 

[Coker]

+1

[harmonizer]

If you get the Nord keyboard and the EV zxa1, be aware that Nord boards have a lower line level output, which matters with the zxa1 more than some other powered speakers. Some who use this combination to create the noise they send to the audience add a preamp between the Nord and zxa1 to allow them to get the maximum volume out of the zxa1.

 

I use a Nord Electro 3 with my zxa1, but only as my stage monitor, so this issue does not matter to me. I do like the sound quality and the low weight of my zxa1.