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Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? #2928349
05/21/18 04:35 PM
05/21/18 04:35 PM
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Winston Psmith Offline OP
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Anyone who reads my posts knows by now, I'm more of an experimentalist than a traditionalist, and I know I'm not entirely alone here in the Forum? At any rate, I'm mindful of an old phrase: "Nothing becomes passe more quickly than the avant-garde."

In researching new gear, and new sounds, I'm starting to see a certain 'sameness' to many Ambient/Experimental Guitar rigs, to the point where if I walk into a club, and look at the Guitarist's rig, I can often tell what they're going to sound like. Jazzmaster, some kind of Pitch Modulator and a string of Delay/Reverbs, they're going to do Drone Music: generic Rock/Metal solid-body, line of cheap MFX and a too-large Amp for a too-small space, they're going to give us a wall of Noise. ("The Fool decides he's tired of Music, and wants to make Noise. Fool plus Noise equals bullshit." - Sonny Sharrock) If I see a Lap-steel, or often s not a Violin, lying on its back on a tabletop, with a bunch of pedals attached, it'll be a mix of the previous two, Drones + Noise. Excruciating is the word you're looking for, BTW. Really, it pretty much comes down to those main types, and not just within my local scene.

I am seldom, if ever, surprised by what I hear anymore, just as I seldom hear anything resembling conscious, composed pieces of Music, and that should not be the case with what claims to be cutting-edge Music. It reminds me of the warning about "When Punk Rock gets a uniform . . ." you'll know it's over. It seems like Ambient & Experimental Guitar now have a general-issue set of gear, or dammed close, but much less of a direction?

Feel free to argue with me, or bring up some new, truly weird f'ing band, technique or concept that I may never have heard.

In the meantime, maybe I should attempt an extrapolation of Bossa-Nova and Scandinavian Death Metal? I don't think that area has been full explored, yet . . . of course, there may be good reason for that.


"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

http://www.novparolo.com
GP Island
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Winston Psmith] #2928356
05/21/18 05:26 PM
05/21/18 05:26 PM
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Dannyalcatraz Offline
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You’re not wrong.

I love watching the Coffee & Riffs vids in YouTube. When I do, I generally expect I’m getting ambient noodling, typically on something with P90s or singlecoils. Teles and Jazzmasters predominate.

Thing is, experimental music can become cliche over time, just like anything else. Even Glen Branca (R.I.P.) got into creative ruts.

And, let’s face it, a lot of experiments will be doomed to failure. I wouldn’t expect a fusion of Ska and Scandinavian Blackened Death Metal (SkaDeath?) to find much of an audience. I once joked about wanting Bork & Dr. John to release an album (“Eyjafjallajökuy’all”), but I have no illusions about what the end results would resemble. A “Best of the Korg Miku” album might sell better. Or maybe not.

Still, trying to second guess the buying public is largely a fool’s game. When Run D.M.C. worked with Aerosmith to cover “Walk This Way”, they did it for fun. Even if they thought the single would sell, I doubt ANY of those guys predicted that it would pave the way for new musical genres.

I say cook up what you want and throw it on the wall. If it sticks...

FWIW, I think starting off with a solid rhythmic base- like bossa nova- and building on it has merit. Booty-shakin’ & Head-bangin’ beats go a long way towards getting positive reactions.

Last edited by Dannyalcatraz; 05/21/18 05:46 PM.

Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2928365
05/21/18 06:24 PM
05/21/18 06:24 PM
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I would argue but I'm listening to music I like. Plus I face-palmed at the mailbox today when I pulled out the July issue of Guitar World and there's Jack White on the cover holding an EVH guitar with 3 pickups noting he's an indie rock trailblazer.

Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: mikesr1963] #2928414
05/22/18 01:08 AM
05/22/18 01:08 AM
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I’ve been ruminating on the “rhythm as basis for experimentation“ theory, I started to remember some of the albums I love that do exactly that.

One was Sepultura’s Roots, which did a great job of melding traditional Brazillian rhythm with Sepultura’s flavor of metal.

Kodo’s Mondo Head is a “world music” tour de force, combining Kodo’s tycho drum techniques with Arabic, African, and European styles and vocals...sometimes all at once.

Toureg musicians (Tinariwen, Bombino, etc.) are using traditional forms with a mix of modern and ancestral instrumentation. Bands out of Botswana are doing new forms of African-infused death metal.

Me? If dabbled with some Latin music tones and rhythms for some metal songs. And had fun with Surf style stuff in 5/4...aaand a fusion of “Ride of the Valkyries” with Yngwiie Malmsteen’s “Ships are Burned”, FWIW.


Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2928442
05/22/18 08:17 AM
05/22/18 08:17 AM
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whitefang Offline
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Usually, when I hear or read "experimental" music, it says(to me), "I haven't figured out how to play any recognizable or established genre, and lack the talent or know-how to play coherently, so I gotta call my music something."

Actually, Punk DID have an almost immediate "uniform". You know, the unusual colored tall, unruly hair, thrift store clothing and safety pin "piercings" and all. But I know what you mean. You CAN look at the gear, or the way a band is "dressed" and immediately know what kind of music you're gonna hear. wink
Whitefang


I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: whitefang] #2928462
05/22/18 10:34 AM
05/22/18 10:34 AM
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Winston Psmith Offline OP
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@Dannyalcatraz - I'm not concerned about marketing my own work, in this context. I do what I do, and either someone likes it, or not. I'm not going to give up trying to create serious Music, even if I'm working in a form that seems to embrace formlessness. The idea of a pre-packaged Avant-Garde/Experimental sound disturbs me, however. "Here, buy this, this and that, and you too can be unique and original!" FFS . . .

Whitefang is right that many forms of Music do have 'uniforms', at this point. He's also right that a lot of folks who have no idea what they're doing choose to call it Experimental, forgetting that some experiments should be kept in the lab, until they produce results.

I've made a serious effort in this life to learn enough about the Guitar to play at least some of the Music I enjoy, while trying to create some of my own, and I'm not done playing nor learning. What I see with the Marketing of the Avant-Guitar, is a sort of shortcut to nowhere. "Don't worry about learning to play, just buy these things, plug in, and call yourself Experimental; no one will know the difference." See back to Sonny Sharrock's remarks about 'the Fool'. I call bullshit . . .

Off to meet with a landscape client, but it's raining, again, so I'll be back soon.

Last edited by Winston Psmith; 05/22/18 10:36 AM.

"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

http://www.novparolo.com
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Winston Psmith] #2928498
05/22/18 01:31 PM
05/22/18 01:31 PM
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Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
In researching new gear, and new sounds, I'm starting to see a certain 'sameness' to many Ambient/Experimental Guitar rigs, to the point where if I walk into a club, and look at the Guitarist's rig, I can often tell what they're going to sound like. Jazzmaster, some kind of Pitch Modulator and a string of Delay/Reverbs, they're going to do Drone Music: generic Rock/Metal solid-body, line of cheap MFX and a too-large Amp for a too-small space, they're going to give us a wall of Noise. ("The Fool decides he's tired of Music, and wants to make Noise. Fool plus Noise equals bullshit." - Sonny Sharrock) If I see a Lap-steel, or often s not a Violin, lying on its back on a tabletop, with a bunch of pedals attached, it'll be a mix of the previous two, Drones + Noise. Excruciating is the word you're looking for, BTW. Really, it pretty much comes down to those main types, and not just within my local scene.


It's a bit different in the LA scene, in that the free improv world is closer to the jazz scene than being an outgrowth of punk or noise. So, generally, although I see bigger & bigger pedal boards all the time, there's not much uniformity in guitar choice. Pretty much every guitar type is represented, though not Strats very much. For many years, nobody in the LA avant garde scene would play a Jazzmaster, as a nod of respect to our compatriot Nels Cline who thoroughly OWNED that axe, at a time when it was spectacularly uncool to play a Jazzmaster (Elvis Costello notwithstanding.) Once Nels joined Wilco you started seeing them again. BTW Nels is the patron saint of the LA avant garde world, local boy makes good. We all played the same crappy venues in the 70s, 80s & 90s, & we're all ecstatic to see Nels ascend to international stature. He was always the baddest, most advanced, technically proficient, farthest out, visionary of the whole lot of us even going back 40+ years.
My personal thing is currently about a third noise, a third texture (but less harsh than noise,) & a third modal tonal melodic (pretty.) My rig is a Taylor solid body (replacing my PRS SE Custom) & either a Gretsch or Epiphone archtop, into many loops/delays, then into several racks of pitchshifters/modulators/timbral & spectral shifters, etc. Ambience.


Scott Fraser
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Scott Fraser] #2928520
05/22/18 02:40 PM
05/22/18 02:40 PM
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Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Quote:
The idea of a pre-packaged Avant-Garde/Experimental sound disturbs me, however. "Here, buy this, this and that, and you too can be unique and original!" FFS . . .


But that’s going to happen regardless of genre...or artistic outlet...or business. Everyewhere you look in human history, success breeds imitation which breeds conformity.

Remember the line from South Park about how to become Goth?
Quote:
If you want be one of the nonconformists, all you have to do is dress just like us and listen to the same music we do.


Then if/when someone comes up with a new idea that breaks the dominant paradigm- even if its just enough to only make a crack- things change. If the new idea becomes successful, the cycle repeats.

On another board, a young metalhead was bemoaning how his parents wouldn’t let him wear band t-shirts with...well...almost anything associated with metal. He was embarrassed that he didn’t look like the rest of the people at the shows...even though he otherwise liked his clothes. I responded:
Quote:
Rebellion and tribalism are always at odds in metal. You being you is as metal as anything. You don’t have to look like every other metalhead out there.

My first metal show was Savatage opening for Megadeth with Dio headlining.* I wore a Hawaiian shirt. I’d have stood out anyway, ‘cause I was seemingly THE black guy in the audience of tens of thousands of metalheads.

Later, when I saw Queensrÿche opening for Metallica (AJFA tour)- again, the only black dude- I wore a B&W button down shirt over a black mesh shirt, B&W baggy pants with a “TV snow” pattern and skull & crossbones suspenders.**

You be you.


The thing is, the line about rebellion and tribalism are as true for any musical genre you could name. If someone posted a bunch of pictures of musicians and music fans, I bet most of us could ID their genres with 75%+ accuracy.

Last edited by Dannyalcatraz; 05/22/18 02:53 PM.

Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Scott Fraser] #2928536
05/22/18 03:27 PM
05/22/18 03:27 PM
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Winston Psmith Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
It's a bit different in the LA scene, in that the free improv world is closer to the jazz scene than being an outgrowth of punk or noise.


Thank you, Scott. That clarifies a number of things. Punk & Noise are major influences within the D.C. scene, at least in so far as Guitar influence: there are a few local elders, still wrestling with the ghosts of Danny Gatton and Roy Buchanan, and a surviving, if not thriving Jazz scene, but otherwise, you're caught between Minor Threat and Throbbing Gristle.

@Dannyalcatraz - You need to meet my friend, and main gear guy, Sean, another Black guy who loves to wear out-of-place outfits to major shows; the kind of guy who loves KISS, NIN, and Rush, but will wear a Jimmy Buffet shirt to their shows. Love and respect, brother!


"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

http://www.novparolo.com
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Winston Psmith] #2928545
05/22/18 03:47 PM
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Dannyalcatraz Offline
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I am who I is.
grin


Last edited by Dannyalcatraz; 05/22/18 03:53 PM.

Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2928696
05/23/18 08:49 AM
05/23/18 08:49 AM
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whitefang Offline
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DANNY:
Loved that "non-conformist" quote from South Park.

I often joke about not having any luck in forming a "non-conformist" club. wink
Whitefang


I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: whitefang] #2928764
05/23/18 01:02 PM
05/23/18 01:02 PM
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Well frankly, a couple of reality check points are in order.
So the voice of guitar that will lead the entire flock is making music
right now, somewhere. You are going to hear them how exactly? get on a plane?
Tell the sales person you want to fly to the next leader of the flock?
Anyone who is not your neighbor, is marketing music.

There is a joke in martial arts-how many martial artists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
100. One to screw in the light bulb. 99 to discuss how they weren`t qualified to screw in a light bulb.
Dude-take musical inspiration wherever and whenever it comes.
Get outraged at the Justin Beiber effect later.


Same old surprises, brand new cliches-

Skipsounds on Soundclick:
www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: skipclone 1] #2928850
05/23/18 05:24 PM
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Winston Psmith Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
Dude-take musical inspiration wherever and whenever it comes.


Absolutely, Skipclone! Jobim, Stravinsky, Spike Jones, Derek Bailey, Milton Babbitt, John Cage, they're all welcome in my house. Part of why I occasionally pick up an unfamiliar Instrument, and grapple with it; at the very least, I might learn something, at best, I'll have yet another tool to work with.

I'm just tired of hearing the same damned noise presented over and over again as if it were somehow, New, Daring & Original! Admit you're just taking the piss, as our British friends would say, or give it up. The guys from Soft Machine milked that dog a lifetime ago.


"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

http://www.novparolo.com
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Winston Psmith] #2928864
05/23/18 06:06 PM
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Dannyalcatraz Offline
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There’s also something to be said for re-presenting older styles to newer audiences.

Guns & Roses succeeded by reminding everyone what straight-up, no-frills hard rock sounded and looked like. But for AC/DC, almost nobody else was doing that. Glam rock was king.

Brian Setzer revived a few different genres, archiving personal acclaim and reviving them enough for other bands to break out.

One of my favorite young bands- Rival Sons- don’t so much innovate as take 40 years of classic rock and artfully recombine their favorite elements in new ways. Even though you can clearly identify their influences, nothing sounds like a rip-off.


Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2928893
05/23/18 10:23 PM
05/23/18 10:23 PM
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no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
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d / halfnote Offline
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Hmmmm.....
Long before the 21st C., most possibilities for music were explored, if not deeply enough to preclude further invention at least enough to fairly well define most likely options.
That is, it's been a long time since most of what we could generally call truly new, never-heard-before stuff's been invented.

Further, in these post-modern times almost anything has been done in some way by someone somewhere & twenty-'leven versions posted online so the sheer magnitude of available, uh, material is making it harder to really be surprised by anything.
Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that yer just noticing that.

That said, there are new things, under the sun, if only in details or subtleties/subtletease (see, like right there grin ) to entice explication.... rolleyes facepalm grin
Y'know, stuff like gettin' deeper into how to work some Charlie Parker lines into C&W or what y'will.

In one way this "I know before I even hear it" thing's a bit like what any performer goes through periodically.
You've played a certain repertoire every night & twice on Fri & Sat for so long y'don't think y'can wring another idea outta it & even if the audience ain't bored you is.

Sometimes just choosing nothing is the way to go when things seem too samey.
Be blank for a while, no music, no musical ideas 'til one day that funny looking cloud up in the corner of the sky or the way a shade of red touches some orange-brown-pink or green forces you to take the magic into yer hands & splash hot trompe l'oeil at airbody's feets, while y'holler, "Yeah, thought you were special, huh ?! Dig, this !"

Or did I misnumberstand what ya mint ?
snax


d=halfnote
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d / halfnote] #2928968
05/24/18 10:42 AM
05/24/18 10:42 AM
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Winston Psmith Offline OP
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@d - Many thanks for a thoughtful and amusing response.

I don't think everything that can be done with Music has been done, or anywhere near it. While we've probably reached the limit on audible tones, that's a matter of Physics, not Music. How we arrange those tones is still up to us.

It's not a matter of losing my own creative urges, or worrying about how to sell myself. I'm too damned old to be a marketable product, myself, and I expose my self to enough new things so I don't feel like the old brain is getting stale yet.

One thing that's still of interest, since you mention the Yardbird himself; players like Charlie Parker didn't necessarily think of themselves as innovators, they were just trying to blow . . .


"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

http://www.novparolo.com
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2929008
05/24/18 01:34 PM
05/24/18 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
I am who I is.
grin



A bit off topic,

I recently had to defend Zappa in general, and this song used as an example along with Thing-fish, from charges of racism on facebook, which is UTTERLY ridiculous...

But there's no explaining anything to a fired up 22-year-old with no knowledge of the man and his works and life and activism who is only repeating the examples someone gave them to convict him as a racist... It made me very sad... for humanity.

Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Winston Psmith] #2929015
05/24/18 02:02 PM
05/24/18 02:02 PM
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no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
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d / halfnote Offline
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Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
@d - Many thanks for a thoughtful and amusing response.

Yes, I can be both...as can we all.

Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
One thing that's still of interest, since you mention the Yardbird himself; players like Charlie Parker didn't necessarily think of themselves as innovators, they were just trying to blow . . .

Many think that the case but a study of Parker's life reveals that he was in fact not just a great extemporizer but a highly schooled musician from his teen years & had, perhaps more than his highly lauded cohort, Professor Gillespie, a very definite awareness of jazz as a development not just in terms of pop music but it's complexities in comparison to classical & other forms.


d=halfnote
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: p90jr] #2929017
05/24/18 02:27 PM
05/24/18 02:27 PM
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no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
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Originally Posted By: p90jr
I recently had to defend Zappa in general, and this song used as an example along with Thing-fish, from charges of racism on facebook, which is UTTERLY ridiculous...

But there's no explaining anything to a fired up 22-year-old with no knowledge of the man and his works and life and activism who is only repeating the examples someone gave them to convict him as a racist... It made me very sad... for humanity.

Not to launch us in that direction here but to offer you some back-up, one of the interesting turns of our "post factual, I'll determine what the facts is" world is the freedom to decide what's true has somehow combined w/the idea that some can determine what thinking occurred behind other ppl's foreheads.
Zappa in fact was a lifelong devotee of blues, doo-wop, jazz & soul music, not just the arcane avant garde.
His finding humor in Amos & Andy is not much diff really than Tracy Morgan or David A Grier.
Let's engage in a little avant mash-up....
Who's pimping the most stereotypes ?




d=halfnote
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d / halfnote] #2929023
05/24/18 02:47 PM
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Frank Zappa, a racist? That would surprise a LOT of the Musician’s who played in his band.


Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2929027
05/24/18 02:55 PM
05/24/18 02:55 PM
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no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
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To tie things back into the subject, here's FZ demonstrating something new under the sun: avant free form jazz-noise improv X reggae !
4:55


d=halfnote
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2929034
05/24/18 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
There’s also something to be said for re-presenting older styles to newer audiences.

Guns & Roses succeeded by reminding everyone what straight-up, no-frills hard rock sounded and looked like. But for AC/DC, almost nobody else was doing that. Glam rock was king.

Brian Setzer revived a few different genres, archiving personal acclaim and reviving them enough for other bands to break out.

One of my favorite young bands- Rival Sons- don’t so much innovate as take 40 years of classic rock and artfully recombine their favorite elements in new ways. Even though you can clearly identify their influences, nothing sounds like a rip-off.


If you go back to the early GNR release (pre-Appetite), Slash was a finger tapper with a Jackson Firebird with a Floyd Rose... he sounded like every other shredder on the sunset strip. I think it was producer Mike Clink who pushed him towards the classic Les Paul/Marshall setup (the guitar was borrowed for the sessions, eventually, I think) and got him to "compose" and pare down his solos until "a kid could sing along to them after getting to know the song." which was an old approach from the 60s and 70s that had been shoved out by the Van Halen-wannabees (but not by Eddie himself, if you think about it... which is why he's still standing). The world might have been different if another producer who was more geared towards hair metal had produced that record...

Also, a bunch of people I know were around The Black Crowes early on, some went to high school with the Robinson brothers... and that band initially was a cross between R.E.M. (as most stuff in Atlanta ended up being in their immediate wake) and gothy new wave called Mr. Crowe's Garden... the story I've always been told was that they were steered towards the Faces/Stones brand of rock and roll by the label.

Both were good developments, in my opinion.


Hey, never thought to look for anything by Mr. Crowe's Garden...


Last edited by p90jr; 05/24/18 03:19 PM.
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2929035
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Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Frank Zappa, a racist? That would surprise a LOT of the Musician’s who played in his band.


And the people who listened to them.

Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: p90jr] #2929076
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as to the OP...

yeah, herd mentality and copyists...

when something becomes popular, you get that... and improvised guitar has become hip with the kids. The identikit gear ("offset" guitar, the right pedals...) has become fashonable. I heard a guy in a music store say "I only play offsets..." I thought that was one of the stupidest things I'd ever heard from a guitarist."

I have a Jazzmaster that I bought before they started really making them again, and since the late 80s I'd borrowed them and Jaguars from a friend who had a fleet of them... being a fan of Elvis Costello and Tom Verlaine. I almost want to sell it, now, but it fits some gigs perfectly.

But, yeah, I haven't been surprised by anything I've heard in quite a while... so much that I stopped looking and started enjoying traditionalism.

Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d / halfnote] #2929077
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Originally Posted By: d
To tie things back into the subject, here's FZ demonstrating something new under the sun: avant free form jazz-noise improv X reggae !
4:55


Andy Summers might argue to stake a claim on this turf...

Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: p90jr] #2929135
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& he'd be entitled.
I used FZ as an example of genre mixing experimentalist not b/c he was the only one but b/c we'd been discusserating him just before.


d=halfnote
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: p90jr] #2929200
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Originally Posted By: p90jr
But, yeah, I haven't been surprised by anything I've heard in quite a while... so much that I stopped looking and started enjoying traditionalism.


crazy
"Traditionalism"? Sounds like the "given" lame name for some genre that really isn't. Or possibly what some might call "plastic" or "commercial formula".

And one interesting way to put something....

A guy I know once( and many moons ago) referred to Frank Zappa as a "musical salmon", as in it always seemed he was purposely(and majestically) swimming "upstream" and against the current(in both noun AND adjective wink ).
Whitefang


I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: whitefang] #2929218
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Quote:
Originally Posted By: p90jr
But, yeah, I haven't been surprised by anything I've heard in quite a while... so much that I stopped looking and started enjoying traditionalism.


crazy
"Traditionalism"? Sounds like the "given" lame name for some genre that really isn't. Or possibly what some might call "plastic" or "commercial formula".

"Traditionalism" seems fairly clear in meaning, given that it might have diff exact meanings contextually.
Since all names/terms are "given", not sure what that part means but can't see how anything termed trad would generally be "plastic".
That is a clever story abt the FZ cognomen.
Quote:
A guy I know once( and many moons ago) referred to Frank Zappa as a "musical salmon", as in it always seemed he was purposely(and majestically) swimming "upstream" and against the current (in both noun AND adjective).


d=halfnote
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d / halfnote] #2929256
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Hopefully in line with this thread, is a quote from Robert Fripp that I just read:

"Music is the cup which holds the wine of silence. Sound is that cup, but empty. Noise is that cup, but broken."

Couple that with William Shakespeare:

"If music be the food of love, play on."

Sounds like a great party - count me in and let me have my fill.


"Am I enough of a freak to be worth paying to see?"- Separated Out (Marillion)
NEW band Old band
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Danzilla] #2929416
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Well it`s always been the case of something carrying the seeds of its own destruction. Thanks to the corporate music industry, that process has been genetically altered to happen much faster-GMO music. The guitar is still an amazing instrument. What did the industry give us-guitar shootouts. Who is the fastest. Who sold the most albums. What comes next-my guess was always the human voice. What happened to Journey? Steve Perry. Then American Idol came along.Sooner or later people are going to get sick of cute but interchangeable singers. There`s a new one every week. They too will fall.


Same old surprises, brand new cliches-

Skipsounds on Soundclick:
www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: skipclone 1] #2929422
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Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
Well it`s always been the case of something carrying the seeds of its own destruction. Thanks to the corporate music industry, that process has been genetically altered to happen much faster-GMO music. The guitar is still an amazing instrument. What did the industry give us-guitar shootouts. Who is the fastest. Who sold the most albums. What comes next-my guess was always the human voice. What happened to Journey? Steve Perry. Then American Idol came along.Sooner or later people are going to get sick of cute but interchangeable singers. There`s a new one every week. They too will fall.


wink
Don't know how(or if) this fits, but I remember back in the late '90's on THE DAILY SHOW they did a bit where a small group of late teens were being polled, and they showed two photos...

one of JANIS JOPLIN and the other of just some nobody nondescript girl and asked the group which one was the better singer. They all pointed to the OTHER girl claiming SHE was the better singer because, "She's pretty!" grin
Whitefang


I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: whitefang] #2929888
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
Originally Posted By: p90jr
But, yeah, I haven't been surprised by anything I've heard in quite a while... so much that I stopped looking and started enjoying traditionalism.


crazy
"Traditionalism"? Sounds like the "given" lame name for some genre that really isn't. Or possibly what some might call "plastic" or "commercial formula".

And one interesting way to put something....

A guy I know once( and many moons ago) referred to Frank Zappa as a "musical salmon", as in it always seemed he was purposely(and majestically) swimming "upstream" and against the current(in both noun AND adjective wink ).
Whitefang


One day I woke up with the urge to listen to Fleetwood Mac and Buckingham Nicks... rather than digging around for some punkish band pushing music in new directions (that might not be musical). My friends called it "getting old." I refer to it as "maturing."

Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: skipclone 1] #2929893
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Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
Well it`s always been the case of something carrying the seeds of its own destruction. Thanks to the corporate music industry, that process has been genetically altered to happen much faster-GMO music. The guitar is still an amazing instrument. What did the industry give us-guitar shootouts. Who is the fastest. Who sold the most albums. What comes next-my guess was always the human voice. What happened to Journey? Steve Perry. Then American Idol came along.Sooner or later people are going to get sick of cute but interchangeable singers. There`s a new one every week. They too will fall.


I agree... I almost said in another thread how there's what I call "guitar racing," that I was never interested in, and it became this culture... and it's almost not musical in what it concentrates on and rewards.

And singing has been pushed in the same direction. And interchangeability aside...

Marshall Crenshaw, who now carries another guitar tuned to D for some songs, said something about not thinking ahead when he was young and making records and producers were encouraging these highwire vocal performances... "I didn't think 'hey, I'll be 50 someday, and I might not be able to hit that note... since I'm really reaching for it at 25...'"

I think Adele's career is in peril at this point because she's done so much damage to her voice, and had some surgeries to remove nodes already...

But I subscribe to the old Fogerty thing... it's pop music, if you write music that is so hard only you can play or sing it, it dies with you. If anybody can hum and sing it, and a group of teenagers can parse the parts and put it together well, it will live forever and have a life of its own.

Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: p90jr] #2929897
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That's why we love CCR. We do about 8 of their songs or songs they have covered. A 4 piece band can do CCR, because that's what they were. We all learned from older players, so we where introduced to a a lot of 60s, 70s and 80s music. The great thing about that is to younger audiences it's new, and to older audiences it's what they want to hear.

Last edited by surfergirl; 05/29/18 02:59 PM.

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Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: surfergirl] #2930048
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Heh.
What WE( my buddies and me) first liked about CCR, was that THEIR first "hit" was a "cover" of that cool old(ten years by the time) DALE HAWKINS tune"Suzie Q". wink

We loved Dale's record as kids, and CCR's version did breathe new life into it, so we welcomed THEM into the "fold" wink And anyway....it kinda goes back to that old saying....

"You can't know where you're going, if you don't know where you've been."
Whitefang


I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: p90jr] #2930064
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Originally Posted By: p90jr
Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
Well it`s always been the case of something carrying the seeds of its own destruction. Thanks to the corporate music industry, that process has been genetically altered to happen much faster-GMO music. The guitar is still an amazing instrument. What did the industry give us-guitar shootouts. Who is the fastest. Who sold the most albums. What comes next-my guess was always the human voice. What happened to Journey? Steve Perry. Then American Idol came along.Sooner or later people are going to get sick of cute but interchangeable singers. There`s a new one every week. They too will fall.


I agree... I almost said in another thread how there's what I call "guitar racing," that I was never interested in, and it became this culture... and it's almost not musical in what it concentrates on and rewards.

And singing has been pushed in the same direction. And interchangeability aside...

Marshall Crenshaw, who now carries another guitar tuned to D for some songs, said something about not thinking ahead when he was young and making records and producers were encouraging these highwire vocal performances... "I didn't think 'hey, I'll be 50 someday, and I might not be able to hit that note... since I'm really reaching for it at 25...'"

I think Adele's career is in peril at this point because she's done so much damage to her voice, and had some surgeries to remove nodes already...

But I subscribe to the old Fogerty thing... it's pop music, if you write music that is so hard only you can play or sing it, it dies with you. If anybody can hum and sing it, and a group of teenagers can parse the parts and put it together well, it will live forever and have a life of its own.


Well I think Elton John`s voice was in question at one point-they were thinking he may not be able to sing again. That problem is not only one of age. Contractual obligations-nonstop touring and promotional appearances-are enough to put a boot down the throat of any voice. At this point I do a full on vocal performance about once a month, unless I add an open mic or karaoke with friends. When I do sing it`s usually two songs-then the next performer is up. In May the MC said it was the best singing they ever heard from me. But I stopped almost everything a few days before. No alcohol, no sugar, no dairy. I was jogging every day. It paid off but, I don`t think I could live like that for weeks or months on end. I`d go nuts. I also don`t know how I would fare if I was singing for an hour every time.


Same old surprises, brand new cliches-

Skipsounds on Soundclick:
www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: skipclone 1] #2930070
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As far as vox, most pop singers come from an untrained approach to their work & wind up stressing their vocal cords b/c they sing way too loudly, in an artificially high tessitura & have other "natural" approaches to how they work, a situation driven by the difficulty of recognizing an invisible tool as one that has definite, measurably effective methods.
Some exceptions might be McCartney, ever an explorer both in & out of studio;
Jagger, who has usually striven to do what he needs to extend his career but who, as far into things as the early 1970s, was often completely out of breath in live perf
(try to find some film of his MSG performance that Dick Cavett recorded on his TV show c.1972);
Roger Daltrey.
I've not actually listened to Adele much but w/the robust quality she projects, I'd be surprised if she doesn't have at least a little coaching.

Opera singers & others have no prob singing at high intensity for often extended periods...but even they must be careful.


d=halfnote
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d / halfnote] #2930076
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As far back as the Quadraphenia tour (mid-70's) Daltrey was being warned about nodules forming on his vocal cords, from straining his voice. Somehow, he's managed to last all these years?


"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

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Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Winston Psmith] #2930077
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I understand that, like Jagger, RD's quite serious abt his physical health &, even more-so, his ability to actually deliver a musically compelling perf.


d=halfnote
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d / halfnote] #2930090
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I'm Big Fan of John Fogerty and CCR. They were a Bay Area local boy 4 piece garage band success where I grew up. Suzie Q came out in June of 68 almost to the day I graduated from High School. As Fang pointed out it was a tune from a decade earlier by Dale Hawkins. The guitar work was all Fogerty and he put a whole new twist on the tune. They really didn't hit the big time until my birthday in '69. For SurferGirl I would recommend the Bayou Country and Green River albums as CCR had a string of their most successful hits on those two albums. They blew the doors off of Elvis, The Beatles and the Beach Boys who had been hogging the spotlight back in the 50's and 60's...

Fogerty wrote the CCR tunes and the lead work for all of the guitar and vocals for the most part. I have a live DVD performance The Long Road Home, which I highly recommend. You can see and hear Fogerty who has stood the test of time since Woodstock. How his voice has held up over the years is beyond me. He sounds like he strains it on every tune from the days he started out, up to and including today. My vocals are getting tired when I try to hit the high notes and now I'm having trouble with the low ones too LOL! How he has gone all of these years performing all of his oldies, amazes me.

+1 Like SurferGirl pointed out, CCR's music is still out there for the young and old alike... thu

Last edited by Larryz; 05/30/18 11:28 AM.

Take care, Larryz
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Winston Psmith] #2930105
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Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
As far back as the Quadraphenia tour (mid-70's) Daltrey was being warned about nodules forming on his vocal cords, from straining his voice. Somehow, he's managed to last all these years?


He’s still performing, maybe, but his voice sounded terrible the last live show of his I heard, maybe a decade ago.


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Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2930130
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Re : Daltrey
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
He’s still performing, maybe, but his voice sounded terrible the last live show of his I heard, maybe a decade ago.

idk
He lacks his youthful upper range & as always, & like most rock singers, he inflects as much actually sings but to me sounds much as he ever did.
As good as the older Elvis, Tom Jones or James Brown (w/whom he shares a certain timbral quality) & I'd say better than Michael Phillip Jagger or the shocking effects time has wrought on Bob the Dyl.


d=halfnote
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d / halfnote] #2930148
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Originally Posted By: d
the shocking effects time has wrought on Bob the Dyl.


Which have resulted in Dylan basically sounding just like Tom Waits and/or Captain Beefheart.


Scott Fraser
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Scott Fraser] #2930191
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"WHAT ?!" freak
[There should be an emoji here that looks like a Danny Thomas spit-take]


Nah, I don't think so, Scott.

Waits has always had a raspy voice but he can dial it back & Beefheart had a range, even in his later yrs that spanned from powerful Chester Burnett land to what would today be called melodic neo-soul...w/a few points outside that swath (like the yodelish warble of a track like "Spotlight Kid".
Plus Van Vliet could actually sing.

The Dyl as a young cat had a nasally, rough & ready timbre, softened at times into an acceptable balladeer tone or hardened to rocky snarl.
Briefly abt 1970 he & prod Bob Johnston came up w/ that "NVille Skyline" croon.
Never a classical appealing vox he was nuanced & expressive.
For quite a while, though, he's just had a burned out, almost monotone thing going on, which I don't find as anywhere near those other 2.


d=halfnote
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d / halfnote] #2930208
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Originally Posted By: d
Re : Daltrey
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
He’s still performing, maybe, but his voice sounded terrible the last live show of his I heard, maybe a decade ago.

idk
He lacks his youthful upper range & as always, & like most rock singers, he inflects as much actually sings but to me sounds much as he ever did.
As good as the older Elvis, Tom Jones or James Brown (w/whom he shares a certain timbral quality) & I'd say better than Michael Phillip Jagger or the shocking effects time has wrought on Bob the Dyl.


OK...that performance was exponentially better than the last one I heard!

Perhaps he was having a bad day that time I saw him last. idk Because that day, he was so bad, I thought his performing days were over.


Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

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Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d / halfnote] #2930224
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Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
"WHAT ?!" freak
[There should be an emoji here that looks like a Danny Thomas spit-take]


Nah, I don't think so, Scott.

Waits has always had a raspy voice but he can dial it back & Beefheart had a range, even in his later yrs that spanned from powerful Chester Burnett land to what would today be called melodic neo-soul...w/a few points outside that swath (like the yodelish warble of a track like "Spotlight Kid".
Plus Van Vliet could actually sing.

The Dyl as a young cat had a nasally, rough & ready timbre, softened at times into an acceptable balladeer tone or hardened to rocky snarl.
Briefly abt 1970 he & prod Bob Johnston came up w/ that "NVille Skyline" croon.
Never a classical appealing vox he was nuanced & expressive.
For quite a while, though, he's just had a burned out, almost monotone thing going on, which I don't find as anywhere near those other 2.


I actually like his take on the Sinatra canon, & the Christmas album. It's so deconstructed.


Scott Fraser
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d / halfnote] #2930284
05/31/18 11:32 AM
05/31/18 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: d
As far as vox, most pop singers come from an untrained approach to their work & wind up stressing their vocal cords b/c they sing way too loudly, in an artificially high tessitura & have other "natural" approaches to how they work, a situation driven by the difficulty of recognizing an invisible tool as one that has definite, measurably effective methods.
Some exceptions might be McCartney, ever an explorer both in & out of studio;
Jagger, who has usually striven to do what he needs to extend his career but who, as far into things as the early 1970s, was often completely out of breath in live perf
(try to find some film of his MSG performance that Dick Cavett recorded on his TV show c.1972);
Roger Daltrey.
I've not actually listened to Adele much but w/the robust quality she projects, I'd be surprised if she doesn't have at least a little coaching.

Opera singers & others have no prob singing at high intensity for often extended periods...but even they must be careful.


Well Sir Paul has long eschewed (somehow that word always sounds like the opposite of what it means) meat, one of many things that can be an obstacle for singers.
Pop singers may start out rough and untrained, but once they are signed to a label and are basically company employees, the labels have teams of assistants-including vocal coaches-to make sure the cash cows keep producing milk. That is one reason why the whole industry resembles a gated community.
I suppose they have to balance that with singers whose whole appeal is sounding rough-ACDC comes to mind.
The out of breath issue-well look at most live performances. The singer is expected to sing and dance at the same time-why else are there wireless headphone mics? try doing that and be pitch perfect-in fact here`s an example. FWIW I sang this song live in May. The last a capella line is barely in pitch and hoarse as a western movie.


Same old surprises, brand new cliches-

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Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: surfergirl] #2930326
05/31/18 02:22 PM
05/31/18 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: surfergirl
That's why we love CCR. We do about 8 of their songs or songs they have covered. A 4 piece band can do CCR, because that's what they were. We all learned from older players, so we where introduced to a a lot of 60s, 70s and 80s music. The great thing about that is to younger audiences it's new, and to older audiences it's what they want to hear.


Yep, and it - along with early Beatles and some Stones - has been where teenagers have started playing together since it came out!

Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d / halfnote] #2930328
05/31/18 02:31 PM
05/31/18 02:31 PM
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p90jr Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
As far as vox, most pop singers come from an untrained approach to their work & wind up stressing their vocal cords b/c they sing way too loudly, in an artificially high tessitura & have other "natural" approaches to how they work, a situation driven by the difficulty of recognizing an invisible tool as one that has definite, measurably effective methods.
Some exceptions might be McCartney, ever an explorer both in & out of studio;
Jagger, who has usually striven to do what he needs to extend his career but who, as far into things as the early 1970s, was often completely out of breath in live perf
(try to find some film of his MSG performance that Dick Cavett recorded on his TV show c.1972);
Roger Daltrey.
I've not actually listened to Adele much but w/the robust quality she projects, I'd be surprised if she doesn't have at least a little coaching.

Opera singers & others have no prob singing at high intensity for often extended periods...but even they must be careful.


The singer in one of the bands I play in now is a trained opera singer... and he had problems back in that phase that haunt him, now. What we do isn't taxing his range or anything... it's more that it aggravates the existing problems and we've had to cancel shows.

Adele is trained.

And strangely, that seems to be the problem. That world took a turn for the worst, apparently, in stressing power for the last 40 years or so, and it's wrecking the voices and careers of the singers.

Adele's Vocal Cord Surgery, And Why Stars Keep Losing Their Voices

Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2930337
05/31/18 03:12 PM
05/31/18 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
As far back as the Quadraphenia tour (mid-70's) Daltrey was being warned about nodules forming on his vocal cords, from straining his voice. Somehow, he's managed to last all these years?


He’s still performing, maybe, but his voice sounded terrible the last live show of his I heard, maybe a decade ago.


I was debating whether to mention that McCartney doesn't sound good, vocally, these days... at least not up to his own standards.


Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: p90jr] #2930366
05/31/18 05:57 PM
05/31/18 05:57 PM
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Inside the Beltway
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RE: Sir Paul - I scrolled through until I got to You Won't See Me, one of my favorite Beatles tunes, and one that wasn't as overwhelmed with ambient stadium sound as some of the others. I'd have to say, that was just recognizable as Sir Paul's voice, IMHO. If I'd heard it on the radio, or some streaming service where I couldn't see him, I'm not sure what I might have thought?

OTOH, a lot of people still get a lot of joy from seeing and hearing him. That's not a bad thing, in these times, or any time. If someone gave me a ticket, I'd be right there.


"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

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Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2930373
05/31/18 06:44 PM
05/31/18 06:44 PM
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no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
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no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Originally Posted By: d
Re : Daltrey
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
He’s still performing, maybe, but his voice sounded terrible the last live show of his I heard, maybe a decade ago.

idk
He lacks his youthful upper range & as always, & like most rock singers, he inflects as much actually sings but to me sounds much as he ever did.
As good as the older Elvis, Tom Jones or James Brown (w/whom he shares a certain timbral quality) & I'd say better than Michael Phillip Jagger or the shocking effects time has wrought on Bob the Dyl.


OK...that performance was exponentially better than the last one I heard!

Perhaps he was having a bad day that time I saw him last. idk Because that day, he was so bad, I thought his performing days were over.


Been reading some bg material.
Circa the time frame you mentioned Daltrey was suffering definite throat probs.


d=halfnote
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: skipclone 1] #2930375
05/31/18 06:50 PM
05/31/18 06:50 PM
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no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
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Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
Pop singers may start out rough and untrained, but once they are signed to a label and are basically company employees, the labels have teams of assistants-including vocal coaches-to make sure the cash cows keep producing milk.

I think those "coaches" are mostly A&R type producers rather than singing instructors, Skip.


d=halfnote
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d / halfnote] #2930411
05/31/18 11:32 PM
05/31/18 11:32 PM
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Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
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That would do it, d!

Last edited by Dannyalcatraz; 05/31/18 11:33 PM.

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Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2930452
06/01/18 07:54 AM
06/01/18 07:54 AM
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Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
whitefang Offline
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A lot of factors affect he voice....

HOW it's used, how OFTEN it's used, illness, alcohol consumption (for some but not all), other illness and age. for instance...

TONY BENNETT is a guy who always "took care" of his voice and throat, but listen to an old recording of his from the '50's-'60's compared to the 91 year old's voice now.
Whitefang


I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: whitefang] #2930695
06/02/18 02:12 PM
06/02/18 02:12 PM
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no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
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no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Re: the Paul McCantsing vid above, when I tired of tryna find the "You Won't See Me" segment & remembered it's the 21st C & searched out a more concise clip.
Gotta couple: 1st is same show, followed by another abt a yr prior.
He's husky-voiced in both but whether that's part of the ongoing decline & fall or just being rasped out in the middle of a multi-hour show idk
Considering how consistent his shows are, maybe he's just always croaky at that part ! rolleyes
Finally, as I typed this a vid from 14 yrs before came up which does show us a more chipper voice on those upper range notes.







I know 1 thing fer sher---I'd love to be able to afford Abe L to play & sing rimshot


d=halfnote
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