Music Player Network Home Guitar Player Magazine Keyboard Magazine Bass Player Magazine EQ Magazine
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#2928349 - 05/21/18 12:35 PM Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar?
Winston Psmith Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 3444
Loc: Inside the Beltway
Anyone who reads my posts knows by now, I'm more of an experimentalist than a traditionalist, and I know I'm not entirely alone here in the Forum? At any rate, I'm mindful of an old phrase: "Nothing becomes passe more quickly than the avant-garde."

In researching new gear, and new sounds, I'm starting to see a certain 'sameness' to many Ambient/Experimental Guitar rigs, to the point where if I walk into a club, and look at the Guitarist's rig, I can often tell what they're going to sound like. Jazzmaster, some kind of Pitch Modulator and a string of Delay/Reverbs, they're going to do Drone Music: generic Rock/Metal solid-body, line of cheap MFX and a too-large Amp for a too-small space, they're going to give us a wall of Noise. ("The Fool decides he's tired of Music, and wants to make Noise. Fool plus Noise equals bullshit." - Sonny Sharrock) If I see a Lap-steel, or often s not a Violin, lying on its back on a tabletop, with a bunch of pedals attached, it'll be a mix of the previous two, Drones + Noise. Excruciating is the word you're looking for, BTW. Really, it pretty much comes down to those main types, and not just within my local scene.

I am seldom, if ever, surprised by what I hear anymore, just as I seldom hear anything resembling conscious, composed pieces of Music, and that should not be the case with what claims to be cutting-edge Music. It reminds me of the warning about "When Punk Rock gets a uniform . . ." you'll know it's over. It seems like Ambient & Experimental Guitar now have a general-issue set of gear, or dammed close, but much less of a direction?

Feel free to argue with me, or bring up some new, truly weird f'ing band, technique or concept that I may never have heard.

In the meantime, maybe I should attempt an extrapolation of Bossa-Nova and Scandinavian Death Metal? I don't think that area has been full explored, yet . . . of course, there may be good reason for that.
_________________________
"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

http://www.novparolo.com

Top
GP Island
#2928356 - 05/21/18 01:26 PM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Winston Psmith]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5506
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
You’re not wrong.

I love watching the Coffee & Riffs vids in YouTube. When I do, I generally expect I’m getting ambient noodling, typically on something with P90s or singlecoils. Teles and Jazzmasters predominate.

Thing is, experimental music can become cliche over time, just like anything else. Even Glen Branca (R.I.P.) got into creative ruts.

And, let’s face it, a lot of experiments will be doomed to failure. I wouldn’t expect a fusion of Ska and Scandinavian Blackened Death Metal (SkaDeath?) to find much of an audience. I once joked about wanting Bork & Dr. John to release an album (“Eyjafjallajökuy’all”), but I have no illusions about what the end results would resemble. A “Best of the Korg Miku” album might sell better. Or maybe not.

Still, trying to second guess the buying public is largely a fool’s game. When Run D.M.C. worked with Aerosmith to cover “Walk This Way”, they did it for fun. Even if they thought the single would sell, I doubt ANY of those guys predicted that it would pave the way for new musical genres.

I say cook up what you want and throw it on the wall. If it sticks...

FWIW, I think starting off with a solid rhythmic base- like bossa nova- and building on it has merit. Booty-shakin’ & Head-bangin’ beats go a long way towards getting positive reactions.


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (05/21/18 01:46 PM)
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

Top
#2928365 - 05/21/18 02:24 PM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
mikesr1963 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/20/06
Posts: 56
Loc: Virginia's East Coast
I would argue but I'm listening to music I like. Plus I face-palmed at the mailbox today when I pulled out the July issue of Guitar World and there's Jack White on the cover holding an EVH guitar with 3 pickups noting he's an indie rock trailblazer.

Top
#2928414 - 05/21/18 09:08 PM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: mikesr1963]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5506
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
I’ve been ruminating on the “rhythm as basis for experimentation“ theory, I started to remember some of the albums I love that do exactly that.

One was Sepultura’s Roots, which did a great job of melding traditional Brazillian rhythm with Sepultura’s flavor of metal.

Kodo’s Mondo Head is a “world music” tour de force, combining Kodo’s tycho drum techniques with Arabic, African, and European styles and vocals...sometimes all at once.

Toureg musicians (Tinariwen, Bombino, etc.) are using traditional forms with a mix of modern and ancestral instrumentation. Bands out of Botswana are doing new forms of African-infused death metal.

Me? If dabbled with some Latin music tones and rhythms for some metal songs. And had fun with Surf style stuff in 5/4...aaand a fusion of “Ride of the Valkyries” with Yngwiie Malmsteen’s “Ships are Burned”, FWIW.
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

Top
#2928442 - 05/22/18 04:17 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 10693
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
wink
Usually, when I hear or read "experimental" music, it says(to me), "I haven't figured out how to play any recognizable or established genre, and lack the talent or know-how to play coherently, so I gotta call my music something."

Actually, Punk DID have an almost immediate "uniform". You know, the unusual colored tall, unruly hair, thrift store clothing and safety pin "piercings" and all. But I know what you mean. You CAN look at the gear, or the way a band is "dressed" and immediately know what kind of music you're gonna hear. wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2928462 - 05/22/18 06:34 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: whitefang]
Winston Psmith Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 3444
Loc: Inside the Beltway
@Dannyalcatraz - I'm not concerned about marketing my own work, in this context. I do what I do, and either someone likes it, or not. I'm not going to give up trying to create serious Music, even if I'm working in a form that seems to embrace formlessness. The idea of a pre-packaged Avant-Garde/Experimental sound disturbs me, however. "Here, buy this, this and that, and you too can be unique and original!" FFS . . .

Whitefang is right that many forms of Music do have 'uniforms', at this point. He's also right that a lot of folks who have no idea what they're doing choose to call it Experimental, forgetting that some experiments should be kept in the lab, until they produce results.

I've made a serious effort in this life to learn enough about the Guitar to play at least some of the Music I enjoy, while trying to create some of my own, and I'm not done playing nor learning. What I see with the Marketing of the Avant-Guitar, is a sort of shortcut to nowhere. "Don't worry about learning to play, just buy these things, plug in, and call yourself Experimental; no one will know the difference." See back to Sonny Sharrock's remarks about 'the Fool'. I call bullshit . . .

Off to meet with a landscape client, but it's raining, again, so I'll be back soon.


Edited by Winston Psmith (05/22/18 06:36 AM)
_________________________
"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

http://www.novparolo.com

Top
#2928498 - 05/22/18 09:31 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Winston Psmith]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 5143
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
In researching new gear, and new sounds, I'm starting to see a certain 'sameness' to many Ambient/Experimental Guitar rigs, to the point where if I walk into a club, and look at the Guitarist's rig, I can often tell what they're going to sound like. Jazzmaster, some kind of Pitch Modulator and a string of Delay/Reverbs, they're going to do Drone Music: generic Rock/Metal solid-body, line of cheap MFX and a too-large Amp for a too-small space, they're going to give us a wall of Noise. ("The Fool decides he's tired of Music, and wants to make Noise. Fool plus Noise equals bullshit." - Sonny Sharrock) If I see a Lap-steel, or often s not a Violin, lying on its back on a tabletop, with a bunch of pedals attached, it'll be a mix of the previous two, Drones + Noise. Excruciating is the word you're looking for, BTW. Really, it pretty much comes down to those main types, and not just within my local scene.


It's a bit different in the LA scene, in that the free improv world is closer to the jazz scene than being an outgrowth of punk or noise. So, generally, although I see bigger & bigger pedal boards all the time, there's not much uniformity in guitar choice. Pretty much every guitar type is represented, though not Strats very much. For many years, nobody in the LA avant garde scene would play a Jazzmaster, as a nod of respect to our compatriot Nels Cline who thoroughly OWNED that axe, at a time when it was spectacularly uncool to play a Jazzmaster (Elvis Costello notwithstanding.) Once Nels joined Wilco you started seeing them again. BTW Nels is the patron saint of the LA avant garde world, local boy makes good. We all played the same crappy venues in the 70s, 80s & 90s, & we're all ecstatic to see Nels ascend to international stature. He was always the baddest, most advanced, technically proficient, farthest out, visionary of the whole lot of us even going back 40+ years.
My personal thing is currently about a third noise, a third texture (but less harsh than noise,) & a third modal tonal melodic (pretty.) My rig is a Taylor solid body (replacing my PRS SE Custom) & either a Gretsch or Epiphone archtop, into many loops/delays, then into several racks of pitchshifters/modulators/timbral & spectral shifters, etc. Ambience.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2928520 - 05/22/18 10:40 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5506
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Quote:
The idea of a pre-packaged Avant-Garde/Experimental sound disturbs me, however. "Here, buy this, this and that, and you too can be unique and original!" FFS . . .


But that’s going to happen regardless of genre...or artistic outlet...or business. Everyewhere you look in human history, success breeds imitation which breeds conformity.

Remember the line from South Park about how to become Goth?
Quote:
If you want be one of the nonconformists, all you have to do is dress just like us and listen to the same music we do.


Then if/when someone comes up with a new idea that breaks the dominant paradigm- even if its just enough to only make a crack- things change. If the new idea becomes successful, the cycle repeats.

On another board, a young metalhead was bemoaning how his parents wouldn’t let him wear band t-shirts with...well...almost anything associated with metal. He was embarrassed that he didn’t look like the rest of the people at the shows...even though he otherwise liked his clothes. I responded:
Quote:
Rebellion and tribalism are always at odds in metal. You being you is as metal as anything. You don’t have to look like every other metalhead out there.

My first metal show was Savatage opening for Megadeth with Dio headlining.* I wore a Hawaiian shirt. I’d have stood out anyway, ‘cause I was seemingly THE black guy in the audience of tens of thousands of metalheads.

Later, when I saw Queensrÿche opening for Metallica (AJFA tour)- again, the only black dude- I wore a B&W button down shirt over a black mesh shirt, B&W baggy pants with a “TV snow” pattern and skull & crossbones suspenders.**

You be you.


The thing is, the line about rebellion and tribalism are as true for any musical genre you could name. If someone posted a bunch of pictures of musicians and music fans, I bet most of us could ID their genres with 75%+ accuracy.


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (05/22/18 10:53 AM)
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

Top
#2928536 - 05/22/18 11:27 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Winston Psmith Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 3444
Loc: Inside the Beltway
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
It's a bit different in the LA scene, in that the free improv world is closer to the jazz scene than being an outgrowth of punk or noise.


Thank you, Scott. That clarifies a number of things. Punk & Noise are major influences within the D.C. scene, at least in so far as Guitar influence: there are a few local elders, still wrestling with the ghosts of Danny Gatton and Roy Buchanan, and a surviving, if not thriving Jazz scene, but otherwise, you're caught between Minor Threat and Throbbing Gristle.

@Dannyalcatraz - You need to meet my friend, and main gear guy, Sean, another Black guy who loves to wear out-of-place outfits to major shows; the kind of guy who loves KISS, NIN, and Rush, but will wear a Jimmy Buffet shirt to their shows. Love and respect, brother!
_________________________
"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

http://www.novparolo.com

Top
#2928545 - 05/22/18 11:47 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Winston Psmith]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5506
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
I am who I is.
grin



Edited by Dannyalcatraz (05/22/18 11:53 AM)
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

Top
#2928696 - 05/23/18 04:49 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 10693
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
laugh
DANNY:
Loved that "non-conformist" quote from South Park.

I often joke about not having any luck in forming a "non-conformist" club. wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2928764 - 05/23/18 09:02 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: whitefang]
skipclone 1 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 8140
Loc: Japan
Well frankly, a couple of reality check points are in order.
So the voice of guitar that will lead the entire flock is making music
right now, somewhere. You are going to hear them how exactly? get on a plane?
Tell the sales person you want to fly to the next leader of the flock?
Anyone who is not your neighbor, is marketing music.

There is a joke in martial arts-how many martial artists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
100. One to screw in the light bulb. 99 to discuss how they weren`t qualified to screw in a light bulb.
Dude-take musical inspiration wherever and whenever it comes.
Get outraged at the Justin Beiber effect later.
_________________________
Same old surprises, brand new cliches-

Skipsounds on Soundclick:
www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491

Top
#2928850 - 05/23/18 01:24 PM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: skipclone 1]
Winston Psmith Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 3444
Loc: Inside the Beltway
Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
Dude-take musical inspiration wherever and whenever it comes.


Absolutely, Skipclone! Jobim, Stravinsky, Spike Jones, Derek Bailey, Milton Babbitt, John Cage, they're all welcome in my house. Part of why I occasionally pick up an unfamiliar Instrument, and grapple with it; at the very least, I might learn something, at best, I'll have yet another tool to work with.

I'm just tired of hearing the same damned noise presented over and over again as if it were somehow, New, Daring & Original! Admit you're just taking the piss, as our British friends would say, or give it up. The guys from Soft Machine milked that dog a lifetime ago.
_________________________
"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

http://www.novparolo.com

Top
#2928864 - 05/23/18 02:06 PM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Winston Psmith]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5506
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
There’s also something to be said for re-presenting older styles to newer audiences.

Guns & Roses succeeded by reminding everyone what straight-up, no-frills hard rock sounded and looked like. But for AC/DC, almost nobody else was doing that. Glam rock was king.

Brian Setzer revived a few different genres, archiving personal acclaim and reviving them enough for other bands to break out.

One of my favorite young bands- Rival Sons- don’t so much innovate as take 40 years of classic rock and artfully recombine their favorite elements in new ways. Even though you can clearly identify their influences, nothing sounds like a rip-off.
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

Top
#2928893 - 05/23/18 06:23 PM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6645
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Hmmmm.....
Long before the 21st C., most possibilities for music were explored, if not deeply enough to preclude further invention at least enough to fairly well define most likely options.
That is, it's been a long time since most of what we could generally call truly new, never-heard-before stuff's been invented.

Further, in these post-modern times almost anything has been done in some way by someone somewhere & twenty-'leven versions posted online so the sheer magnitude of available, uh, material is making it harder to really be surprised by anything.
Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that yer just noticing that.

That said, there are new things, under the sun, if only in details or subtleties/subtletease (see, like right there grin ) to entice explication.... rolleyes facepalm grin
Y'know, stuff like gettin' deeper into how to work some Charlie Parker lines into C&W or what y'will.

In one way this "I know before I even hear it" thing's a bit like what any performer goes through periodically.
You've played a certain repertoire every night & twice on Fri & Sat for so long y'don't think y'can wring another idea outta it & even if the audience ain't bored you is.

Sometimes just choosing nothing is the way to go when things seem too samey.
Be blank for a while, no music, no musical ideas 'til one day that funny looking cloud up in the corner of the sky or the way a shade of red touches some orange-brown-pink or green forces you to take the magic into yer hands & splash hot trompe l'oeil at airbody's feets, while y'holler, "Yeah, thought you were special, huh ?! Dig, this !"

Or did I misnumberstand what ya mint ?
snax
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2928968 - 05/24/18 06:42 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d]
Winston Psmith Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 3444
Loc: Inside the Beltway
@d - Many thanks for a thoughtful and amusing response.

I don't think everything that can be done with Music has been done, or anywhere near it. While we've probably reached the limit on audible tones, that's a matter of Physics, not Music. How we arrange those tones is still up to us.

It's not a matter of losing my own creative urges, or worrying about how to sell myself. I'm too damned old to be a marketable product, myself, and I expose my self to enough new things so I don't feel like the old brain is getting stale yet.

One thing that's still of interest, since you mention the Yardbird himself; players like Charlie Parker didn't necessarily think of themselves as innovators, they were just trying to blow . . .
_________________________
"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

http://www.novparolo.com

Top
#2929008 - 05/24/18 09:34 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3061
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
I am who I is.
grin



A bit off topic,

I recently had to defend Zappa in general, and this song used as an example along with Thing-fish, from charges of racism on facebook, which is UTTERLY ridiculous...

But there's no explaining anything to a fired up 22-year-old with no knowledge of the man and his works and life and activism who is only repeating the examples someone gave them to convict him as a racist... It made me very sad... for humanity.

Top
#2929015 - 05/24/18 10:02 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Winston Psmith]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6645
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
@d - Many thanks for a thoughtful and amusing response.

Yes, I can be both...as can we all.

Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
One thing that's still of interest, since you mention the Yardbird himself; players like Charlie Parker didn't necessarily think of themselves as innovators, they were just trying to blow . . .

Many think that the case but a study of Parker's life reveals that he was in fact not just a great extemporizer but a highly schooled musician from his teen years & had, perhaps more than his highly lauded cohort, Professor Gillespie, a very definite awareness of jazz as a development not just in terms of pop music but it's complexities in comparison to classical & other forms.
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2929017 - 05/24/18 10:27 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: p90jr]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6645
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: p90jr
I recently had to defend Zappa in general, and this song used as an example along with Thing-fish, from charges of racism on facebook, which is UTTERLY ridiculous...

But there's no explaining anything to a fired up 22-year-old with no knowledge of the man and his works and life and activism who is only repeating the examples someone gave them to convict him as a racist... It made me very sad... for humanity.

Not to launch us in that direction here but to offer you some back-up, one of the interesting turns of our "post factual, I'll determine what the facts is" world is the freedom to decide what's true has somehow combined w/the idea that some can determine what thinking occurred behind other ppl's foreheads.
Zappa in fact was a lifelong devotee of blues, doo-wop, jazz & soul music, not just the arcane avant garde.
His finding humor in Amos & Andy is not much diff really than Tracy Morgan or David A Grier.
Let's engage in a little avant mash-up....
Who's pimping the most stereotypes ?


_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2929023 - 05/24/18 10:47 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5506
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Frank Zappa, a racist? That would surprise a LOT of the Musician’s who played in his band.
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

Top
#2929027 - 05/24/18 10:55 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6645
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
To tie things back into the subject, here's FZ demonstrating something new under the sun: avant free form jazz-noise improv X reggae !
4:55
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2929034 - 05/24/18 11:15 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3061
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
There’s also something to be said for re-presenting older styles to newer audiences.

Guns & Roses succeeded by reminding everyone what straight-up, no-frills hard rock sounded and looked like. But for AC/DC, almost nobody else was doing that. Glam rock was king.

Brian Setzer revived a few different genres, archiving personal acclaim and reviving them enough for other bands to break out.

One of my favorite young bands- Rival Sons- don’t so much innovate as take 40 years of classic rock and artfully recombine their favorite elements in new ways. Even though you can clearly identify their influences, nothing sounds like a rip-off.


If you go back to the early GNR release (pre-Appetite), Slash was a finger tapper with a Jackson Firebird with a Floyd Rose... he sounded like every other shredder on the sunset strip. I think it was producer Mike Clink who pushed him towards the classic Les Paul/Marshall setup (the guitar was borrowed for the sessions, eventually, I think) and got him to "compose" and pare down his solos until "a kid could sing along to them after getting to know the song." which was an old approach from the 60s and 70s that had been shoved out by the Van Halen-wannabees (but not by Eddie himself, if you think about it... which is why he's still standing). The world might have been different if another producer who was more geared towards hair metal had produced that record...

Also, a bunch of people I know were around The Black Crowes early on, some went to high school with the Robinson brothers... and that band initially was a cross between R.E.M. (as most stuff in Atlanta ended up being in their immediate wake) and gothy new wave called Mr. Crowe's Garden... the story I've always been told was that they were steered towards the Faces/Stones brand of rock and roll by the label.

Both were good developments, in my opinion.


Hey, never thought to look for anything by Mr. Crowe's Garden...



Edited by p90jr (05/24/18 11:19 AM)

Top
#2929035 - 05/24/18 11:15 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3061
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Frank Zappa, a racist? That would surprise a LOT of the Musician’s who played in his band.


And the people who listened to them.

Top
#2929076 - 05/24/18 01:19 PM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: p90jr]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3061
as to the OP...

yeah, herd mentality and copyists...

when something becomes popular, you get that... and improvised guitar has become hip with the kids. The identikit gear ("offset" guitar, the right pedals...) has become fashonable. I heard a guy in a music store say "I only play offsets..." I thought that was one of the stupidest things I'd ever heard from a guitarist."

I have a Jazzmaster that I bought before they started really making them again, and since the late 80s I'd borrowed them and Jaguars from a friend who had a fleet of them... being a fan of Elvis Costello and Tom Verlaine. I almost want to sell it, now, but it fits some gigs perfectly.

But, yeah, I haven't been surprised by anything I've heard in quite a while... so much that I stopped looking and started enjoying traditionalism.

Top
#2929077 - 05/24/18 01:23 PM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3061
Originally Posted By: d
To tie things back into the subject, here's FZ demonstrating something new under the sun: avant free form jazz-noise improv X reggae !
4:55


Andy Summers might argue to stake a claim on this turf...

Top
#2929135 - 05/24/18 05:50 PM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: p90jr]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6645
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
& he'd be entitled.
I used FZ as an example of genre mixing experimentalist not b/c he was the only one but b/c we'd been discusserating him just before.
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2929200 - 05/25/18 04:36 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: p90jr]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 10693
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Originally Posted By: p90jr
But, yeah, I haven't been surprised by anything I've heard in quite a while... so much that I stopped looking and started enjoying traditionalism.


crazy
"Traditionalism"? Sounds like the "given" lame name for some genre that really isn't. Or possibly what some might call "plastic" or "commercial formula".

And one interesting way to put something....

A guy I know once( and many moons ago) referred to Frank Zappa as a "musical salmon", as in it always seemed he was purposely(and majestically) swimming "upstream" and against the current(in both noun AND adjective wink ).
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2929218 - 05/25/18 06:19 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6645
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Quote:
Originally Posted By: p90jr
But, yeah, I haven't been surprised by anything I've heard in quite a while... so much that I stopped looking and started enjoying traditionalism.


crazy
"Traditionalism"? Sounds like the "given" lame name for some genre that really isn't. Or possibly what some might call "plastic" or "commercial formula".

"Traditionalism" seems fairly clear in meaning, given that it might have diff exact meanings contextually.
Since all names/terms are "given", not sure what that part means but can't see how anything termed trad would generally be "plastic".
That is a clever story abt the FZ cognomen.
Quote:
A guy I know once( and many moons ago) referred to Frank Zappa as a "musical salmon", as in it always seemed he was purposely(and majestically) swimming "upstream" and against the current (in both noun AND adjective).
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2929256 - 05/25/18 09:32 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: d]
Danzilla Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/09/04
Posts: 5480
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Hopefully in line with this thread, is a quote from Robert Fripp that I just read:

"Music is the cup which holds the wine of silence. Sound is that cup, but empty. Noise is that cup, but broken."

Couple that with William Shakespeare:

"If music be the food of love, play on."

Sounds like a great party - count me in and let me have my fill.
_________________________
"Am I enough of a freak to be worth paying to see?"- Separated Out (Marillion)
NEW band Old band

Top
#2929416 - 05/26/18 01:34 AM Re: Rant warning: Marketing the Avant-Guitar? [Re: Danzilla]
skipclone 1 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 8140
Loc: Japan
Well it`s always been the case of something carrying the seeds of its own destruction. Thanks to the corporate music industry, that process has been genetically altered to happen much faster-GMO music. The guitar is still an amazing instrument. What did the industry give us-guitar shootouts. Who is the fastest. Who sold the most albums. What comes next-my guess was always the human voice. What happened to Journey? Steve Perry. Then American Idol came along.Sooner or later people are going to get sick of cute but interchangeable singers. There`s a new one every week. They too will fall.
_________________________
Same old surprises, brand new cliches-

Skipsounds on Soundclick:
www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  A String, Bluesape, myles_rose