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#2927321 - 05/16/18 08:39 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Eric Iverson]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: Eric Iverson
I stand corrected, Fred, LOL. I meant "archtops" of course.


Haahh! Well, I still maintain that, as I posted above in response to your apparent error, my old cedar-topped Yairi flat-top, strung .014" through .059", actually sounded GREAT for a clean, Jazzy fingerstyle tone, plugged or unplugged, more on the brighter side of Jazz tone. thu

God I love cedar for an acoustic guitar top.
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#2927322 - 05/16/18 08:41 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Eric Iverson]
d Offline
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How abt playing "archtype" gtrs ...?
snax
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#2927327 - 05/16/18 09:08 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: d]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
How abt playing "archtype" gtrs ...?
snax


Aaaah, I'm afreud we're not jung any more...
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#2927380 - 05/16/18 03:05 PM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Eric Iverson]
Happy Birthday Fred_C Offline
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Eric,

Yeah, in my experience, overwhelmingly, the vast majority of Jazz guitarists (including myself) tend to play archtops. Certainly not exclusively. As a matter of fact, I taught two students who played a Peavey T-60 (I think) solidbody and that guitar had a beautiful Jazz tone (of course, they played the neck pickup and rolled the tone back).

In addition, the classical guitar has been used extensively for Jazz (particularly for Bossa Nova, "The Brazilian Sound"). I think that a flat top acoustic would have a nice tone for Chord Melody, but would probably be kind of inappropriate for Bossa Nova which requires a softer tone.

@Caev; Here's the master of fingerstyle Jazz guitar on a classical guitar. The great Charlie Byrd. He was an innovator, applying classical right hand technique to Jazz.

Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/pPyY80pUujE


Edited by Fred_C (05/16/18 03:16 PM)
Edit Reason: additional content
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#2927428 - 05/16/18 10:32 PM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
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Found this clip while watching your clip Fred. Here's 3 guys having some fun...I have fun just kicking back and watching them do it! Arch tops and a flat top nylon (might even be a cedar top):



cool
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#2927430 - 05/16/18 10:41 PM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Fred_C]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
@Caev; Here's the master of fingerstyle Jazz guitar on a classical guitar. The great Charlie Byrd. He was an innovator, applying classical right hand technique to Jazz.

Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/pPyY80pUujE


Nice. cool Love that upright bassist's playing, too.

Originally Posted By: Larryz
Found this clip while watching your clip Fred. Here's 3 guys having some fun...I have fun just kicking back and watching them do it! Arch tops and a flat top nylon (might even be a cedar top):



cool


Also very nice. cool
_________________________
Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~
_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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#2927448 - 05/17/18 05:43 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
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Originally Posted By: Caevan O'Shite
Originally Posted By: Eric Iverson
I stand corrected, Fred, LOL. I meant "archtops" of course.


Haahh! Well, I still maintain that, as I posted above in response to your apparent error, my old cedar-topped Yairi flat-top, strung .014" through .059", actually sounded GREAT for a clean, Jazzy fingerstyle tone, plugged or unplugged, more on the brighter side of Jazz tone. thu

God I love cedar for an acoustic guitar top.


Yep... cedar and spruce are to my liking.

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#2927449 - 05/17/18 05:43 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3079
Originally Posted By: Caevan O'Shite
Originally Posted By: d
How abt playing "archtype" gtrs ...?
snax


Aaaah, I'm afreud we're not jung any more...


Humor points to you both.

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#2927475 - 05/17/18 08:02 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: p90jr]
Eric Iverson Offline
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There was an article in Jazz Times entitled "Darkness On the Edge of Tone - Do Jazz Guitarists Know How Bad They Really Sound?" 7/1/2000 by Chip Stern.

It addressed the very question we are discussing here. You can find it on the Net if anyone is interested.

It has some interesting suggestions for jazz guitarists to get a better or least "less muddy" tone, if they need to.

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#2927487 - 05/17/18 08:38 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Eric Iverson]
Happy Birthday Fred_C Offline
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Eric,

I'd like to read that article. I'll check it out when I get a chance. I hate to sound complacent, but I really like the tones I get from my guitars. You gents should hear the tone of the Bartolini "jazz pair" in my Ibanez AF 125 Custom. Man-oh-man, it's killer.
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#2927491 - 05/17/18 08:50 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Fred_C]
DocPate Offline
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Registered: 01/11/16
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Loc: Virginia
I really get disgusted when someone criticizes a player's tone. Particularly another professional guitar player, be he/she a jazz or any genre. You may give your personal dislike but another player probably has spent hours developing the sound they are playing.

Personally, I play country music and a lot of Rockabilly. Ergo I love the twang of the single coil P90 on a 1955 Telecaster played through a 1956 Fender Tweed. Very bright. But I don't object to another person complaining about my tone. That's his opinion. But don't tell me that all Rockabilly guitar players play too bright.

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#2927506 - 05/17/18 09:48 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: DocPate]
p90jr Offline
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In my time I've been screamed at in jazz gigs (by my stepdad) for using overdrive or a rockabilly-ish compressed reverby tone or faking a sitar while just trying to sound different from the other guitarist... let's not get into me being screamed at for playing country or rockabilly licks at those gigs. I'm generally not who you call for orthodoxy in any setting, because I'm going to wander somewhere at some point, naturally. I appreciate the history of jazz and the legacy... but it was the gatecrashing, rule-breaking, exploratory, street/dingy basement music of its day. Let's not strangle it in dogma, to live it needs imagination, which is why if I had to name my current "jazz" faves they'd be Mike Stern and Nels Cline and Marc Ribot and Vernon Reid and props to Sonny Sharrock and James "Blood" Ulmer.

But I still love the thick traditional tone of a big jazz box. Especially where you might expect something else.

And I wonder if I'm being unfairly prejudicial in that when I see a guy get up with a battered Strat with their initials on it in reflective mailbox stickers and a wide-brimmed hat that I usually just leave? That's just 4/5s of guitarists around here these days. Makes me miss the EVH imitators that used to be 4/5s of guitarists, here.

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#2927525 - 05/17/18 11:21 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Eric Iverson]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 5160
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Eric Iverson
There was an article in Jazz Times entitled "Darkness On the Edge of Tone - Do Jazz Guitarists Know How Bad They Really Sound?" 7/1/2000 by Chip Stern.
It addressed the very question we are discussing here. You can find it on the Net if anyone is interested.
It has some interesting suggestions for jazz guitarists to get a better or least "less muddy" tone, if they need to.


I think that may have been the one I referenced at the start of this thread.
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#2927527 - 05/17/18 11:39 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Scott Fraser]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Registered: 02/15/10
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Just read it, and I see it references the dreaded Polytone . . .

Sadly, it seems to devolve into a thinly-disguised plug (pun intended), for a particular product.
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#2927542 - 05/17/18 12:51 PM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: p90jr]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
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Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: p90jr
In my time I've been screamed at in jazz gigs (by my stepdad) for using overdrive or a rockabilly-ish compressed reverby tone or faking a sitar while just trying to sound different from the other guitarist... let's not get into me being screamed at for playing country or rockabilly licks at those gigs. I'm generally not who you call for orthodoxy in any setting, because I'm going to wander somewhere at some point, naturally. I appreciate the history of jazz and the legacy... but it was the gatecrashing, rule-breaking, exploratory, street/dingy basement music of its day. Let's not strangle it in dogma, to live it needs imagination, which is why if I had to name my current "jazz" faves they'd be Mike Stern and Nels Cline and Marc Ribot and Vernon Reid and props to Sonny Sharrock and James "Blood" Ulmer.

But I still love the thick traditional tone of a big jazz box. Especially where you might expect something else.

And I wonder if I'm being unfairly prejudicial in that when I see a guy get up with a battered Strat with their initials on it in reflective mailbox stickers and a wide-brimmed hat that I usually just leave? That's just 4/5s of guitarists around here these days. Makes me miss the EVH imitators that used to be 4/5s of guitarists, here.


If players in a genre always play the same gear the same way, the genre will stagnate. Sometimes, you need to experiment with tones and effects to see if they’ll bring something good to the table. They can't all be winners, though.

I remember watching a live Steely Dan clip- I don’t remember which one or who the guitarist was- and the solo sounded soooooo out of place. The tone and style sounded like a 90’s glam rock solo a la CC DeVille or the like. It was well done, but it didn’t work in the context of that time and place.

OTOH, players like Al Di Meola and Shawn Lane dabbled in harder rock tones in their pieces, and it sounded great.


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (05/17/18 12:54 PM)
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#2927544 - 05/17/18 01:14 PM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: DocPate]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
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Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: DocPate
I really get disgusted when someone criticizes a player's tone. Particularly another professional guitar player, be he/she a jazz or any genre. You may give your personal dislike but another player probably has spent hours developing the sound they are playing


There are many of my fave players who fall into disfavor b/c they deliberately cultivate a certain sound...but let's recognize that there are others to whom timbre is not even a consideration. For whatever reason they're just not listening to that aspect.
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#2927584 - 05/17/18 06:13 PM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 3079
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
I remember watching a live Steely Dan clip- I don’t remember which one or who the guitarist was- and the solo sounded soooooo out of place. The tone and style sounded like a 90’s glam rock solo a la CC DeVille or the like. It was well done, but it didn’t work in the context of that time and place.

OTOH, players like Al Di Meola and Shawn Lane dabbled in harder rock tones in their pieces, and it sounded great.


The Steely Dan clip was probably Wayne Krantz... I appreciate his skill and have heard his own stuff that I could get into but he was my least favorite of the Steely Dan touring guitarists...

Of course, the fusion guys like Di Meola weren't afraid of cranking up the tones... which reminds me that I always considered Steve Howe to essentially be a fusion guitarist.

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#2927678 - 05/18/18 08:17 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: p90jr]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Registered: 02/15/10
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Originally Posted By: p90jr
Of course, the fusion guys like Di Meola weren't afraid of cranking up the tones... which reminds me that I always considered Steve Howe to essentially be a fusion guitarist.


Howe was one of very few Prog Guitarists who didn't altogether abandon his Blues roots.

I've always felt that Prog, Fusion and Metal had a lot in common; odd time signatures, cranked Amps, unconventional Scales & Modes, and a strong emphasis on technique over playing by 'feel'.
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#2927683 - 05/18/18 08:27 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: p90jr]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6726
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
I remember watching a live Steely Dan clip- I don’t remember which one or who the guitarist was- and the solo sounded soooooo out of place. The tone and style sounded like a 90’s glam rock solo a la CC DeVille or the like. It was well done, but it didn’t work in the context of that time and place.


Tune in question, please ?
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#2927765 - 05/18/18 03:43 PM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: d]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5541
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
I’ve been trying to remember, but so far, no dice,
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#2927846 - 05/19/18 04:25 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Let's too, not forget "Fusion" founder( and m' main man) JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, who never had any problem looking for, finding AND displaying MANY tones both unique to jazz AND electric guitar in general.
Whitefang
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#2928215 - 05/21/18 04:19 AM Re: From a local blues guitarist [Re: whitefang]
Eric Iverson Offline
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Registered: 08/03/05
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Loc: Jackson Heights, NY
My thing is, "well, there's a rainbow out there, so why limit yourself to just one color?"

But there are many ways to be colorful in music, such as say, HARMONY. There is even RHYTHMIC color if you want to look at it that way.

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