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#2927182 - 05/15/18 12:55 PM Motif Rack ownersl
konaboy Offline
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Registered: 09/23/02
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Hi all
Just picked up a 2003 Motif Rack. I believe they call this the Motif Classic these days.
Anybody else still own one? I have a question.
On mine the data dial encoder seems to go backwards, ie, rotate clockwise and it decrements. Anti-clockwise to increment.
All my other synths work the other way, clockwise rotation to increase.
thanks for any help.


Edited by konaboy (05/15/18 12:57 PM)
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#2927201 - 05/15/18 02:41 PM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: konaboy]
Sven Golly Offline
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On a secondary topic, you may want to think about returning that rack if you're trying to do any serious MIDI sequencing on it. There's a well-known MIDI timing issue on that first-gen Motif Rack, even after OS updates.

Clonk.
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#2927203 - 05/15/18 02:56 PM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: konaboy]
MIDI2XS Offline
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Originally Posted By: konaboy
Hi all
Just picked up a 2003 Motif Rack. I believe they call this the Motif Classic these days.
Anybody else still own one? I have a question.
On mine the data dial encoder seems to go backwards, ie, rotate clockwise and it decrements. Anti-clockwise to increment. [...]

That's certainly not normal operation. If it does that consistently, someone may have replaced the rotary encoder with an incorrect type.

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#2927211 - 05/15/18 03:46 PM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: MIDI2XS]
konaboy Offline
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Registered: 09/23/02
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It does it consistently for sure. maybe I can open it up and swap a couple of the wires if I'm lucky.
I'm well aware of the alleged midi timing issue, but afaik there are many happy users. i'm interested in doing my own tests to see how bad the problem actually is. My hunch that any problems are negligible, hard to believe that Yamaha would release a multi-timbral module with serious timing issues. We shall see.
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#2927217 - 05/15/18 04:49 PM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: konaboy]
GRollins Offline
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The article in the link above gave me the impression that the timing problem was only noticeable if the unit was played in conjunction with other synths, side-by-side. With that in mind, it may depend on application as to whether it's something that will ever cause you problems. If you're just playing it from a controller it's not likely to be an issue.

Grey
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#2927218 - 05/15/18 04:59 PM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Also, it seems like it would be more of an issue for people playing back sequences with numerous simultaneous tracks, as opposed to live playing of one or two sounds at a time, so the concern may also depend on your application.
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#2927228 - 05/15/18 07:16 PM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: konaboy]
MIDI2XS Offline
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Posts: 435
Originally Posted By: konaboy
It does it consistently for sure. maybe I can open it up and swap a couple of the wires if I'm lucky.

You might be able to swap the A and B output pin connections, but the encoder is soldered to a small p.c. board.

Perhaps you can verify whether the correct encoder is installed. The Yamaha part number is VR10140R, which is an ALPS EC16B24204.
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#2927237 - 05/15/18 08:27 PM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: MIDI2XS]
Jefsong Offline
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I own a "Classic" Motif Rack and I can tell you for sure the MIDI timing errors are a huge problem. I notice it when connected to a keyboard controller via USB and trigger a layered sound. You can really feel the latency and it drives me crazy! Nothing can fix it. It's basically useless for me. However, if I trigger a single patch through the traditional midi din connection it works but this defeats the usefulness of it being multi-timbral. So for me it's a huge paper weight.
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#2927260 - 05/16/18 01:27 AM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: Jefsong]
Dockeys Offline
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I remember reading about the MIDI time issues on the Sound on Sound review many years ago....15 years ago, yikes! Here’s the link:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-motif-rack

I had that model and never had any problems with it but unlike Jefsong I was connecting via traditional 5 pin midi.
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#2927266 - 05/16/18 03:01 AM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: Dockeys]
Rod S Offline
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Back to the point, the dial encoder on my Motif ES was shot within a few years of use, I agree it is possible someone made a mistake replacing it. It would move forward in the bank only every few clicks randomly and then jump to the patch I started with.
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#2927268 - 05/16/18 04:01 AM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: Rod S]
konaboy Offline
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Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 967
some very interesting and helpful comments.
Safe to assume I think that the encoder has been replaced then. From looking at some photos online it seems like it is not possible to install it incorrectly, so presumably the wrong part was used.
But I think there is hope.

You can see the encoder itself has just 3 pins, and it's mounted to a small PCB.

pic1

pic2

pic3

pic4

Here's the useful thread about a similar repair where I grabbed the pics.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/1109030-repairing-yamaha-motif-rack.html

It looks like there is no circuitry on the encoder PCB itself, the pins from the encoder go straight to a header connector.

So by swapping the wires in the plug that goes to the header connector, I think it should fix it. Avoids having to order, replace and solder in a new encoder which is good.

My research indicates the center pin is ground, so I can just rewire the plug to swap A and B.



Good plan?


Edited by konaboy (05/16/18 04:16 AM)
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#2927277 - 05/16/18 04:47 AM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: konaboy]
MIDI2XS Offline
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Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 435
Originally Posted By: konaboy
My research indicates the center pin is ground, so I can just rewire the plug to swap A and B.



Good plan?

It appears that the picture is one of a generic rotary encoder. The problem is that various manufacturers use different pinouts. (By the way, the common pin isn't typically connected to ground.)

You can get the service manual for the Motif-Rack ES online, which should have the same encoder and board as the Classic/original Rack model.

https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_motif-rack_es.pdf/download.html
Click on "Get Manual" when it appears at the linked page.

See the RE board on page 105 of the PDF - the location on that schematic is J12.
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#2927280 - 05/16/18 05:06 AM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: MIDI2XS]
konaboy Offline
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Registered: 09/23/02
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Way to go MIDI2XS!
Here is the capture from the service manual.




So I'll swap pins S4 and S5 on the encoder PCB plug.

I haven't taken a look yet but sometimes you can unhook the pins from the plug by releasing a barb and pull them out, hopefully that's the case here. Otherwise I guess I'll snip the wires going to the plug.

cheers
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#2927360 - 05/16/18 12:16 PM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: konaboy]
konaboy Offline
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Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 967
the previous owner assures me that the encoder has never been replaced, it's always been this way, working as designed... I can get used to it I suppose, if this is the case.
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#2927370 - 05/16/18 01:18 PM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: konaboy]
MIDI2XS Offline
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Registered: 01/14/13
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Originally Posted By: konaboy
the previous owner assures me that the encoder has never been replaced, it's always been this way, working as designed... I can get used to it I suppose, if this is the case.

Interesting.

If you have the Owner's Manual, see page 50, and try adjusting the RevSend level as described. Which direction of the Data Dial increases the Reverb Send level?

If you don't have the Owner's Manual...
https://www.motifator.com/storage/support/MOTIFRACKE1.pdf
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#2927532 - 05/17/18 11:55 AM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: MIDI2XS]
konaboy Offline
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Registered: 09/23/02
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I haven't checked yet, but watching this video confirms that mine is reversed. Doesn't make any sense if you are to believe that my unit has not been repaired.
Anyway please do yourself a favour and check out Bert in fine form! The guy is a legend! No evidence of timing issues on these demos, on the contrary smile



Edited by konaboy (05/17/18 11:58 AM)
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#2927535 - 05/17/18 12:28 PM Re: Motif Rack ownersl [Re: konaboy]
MIDI2XS Offline
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Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 435
Originally Posted By: konaboy
I haven't checked yet, but watching this video confirms that mine is reversed. [...]

I own several pieces of Yamaha gear with rotary encoders. All of them increase Parameter values when the knob is turned clockwise. The only time I've seen otherwise is when an encoder is failing, and then that behavior is sporadic.
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