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New synth: DSI Sequential X


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AnotherScott hit on a number of the points that are relevant to me, but clearly there is no definitive answer to what its worth. It varies by individual, and for those whom the answer is $4000 and above theyll make sales until demand drops and we see how flexible their pricing is. Thats the way of most things.

 

Likewise, the question of whether hardware is worth the premium over software is hardly unique to this instrument. Its true of every synthesizer out there, and again the answer is individual.

 

In practice, 16 channels of high-quality self-oscillating resonant filters is pretty CPU intensive if youre trying to closely emulate the real thing. Then theres 200GB of SSD that I wont be tying up in my laptop, and a decent keybed thats weighted radically differently than my other current options in addition to everything mentioned about real-time controls. Im very much looking forward to having this hybrid blend of extensive samples and analog filtered warmth in my setup because it fills a gap for me. Whether thats true for others isnt particularly of concern.

Acoustic: Shigeru Kawai SK-7 ~ Breedlove C2/R

MIDI: Kurzweil Forte ~ Sequential Prophet X ~ Yamaha CP88 ~ Expressive E Osmose

Electric: Schecter Solo Custom Exotic ~ Chapman MLB1 Signature Bass

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Well, a Rev2 is $2000. It has two oscillators (saw, triangle, saw+tri, and pulse) + sub osc and 16 voices, 24db filter, and a smaller mod matrix.

 

The Prophet X also has two DCO's (Sine, saw, pulse, supersaw) adds two sample oscillators and a true stereo signal path. It has a bigger mod matrix, and two real time touch faders over the Rev2. It also has a huge set of samples from a very professional sampling company - I'm sure they were paid something.

 

So, is it 2x a Rev2? Kind of. Double the oscillators, better hardware real-time controls, can do typical analog poly sounds, but lots of extra ground due to samples. The sine wave is more useful with samples than the triangle wave, and I'd rather have supersaw than saw+tri wave in the REV2 - more useful. The sample oscillators could always add most any other wave shape that could be conceived, so the oscillator section is massively better than a REV2.

 

DSI makes other synths for $3k - this is well more powerful than any of them, so $4k it is. I can see how they get there. Still a chunk of $$ but less than a Solaris, a Quantum, or a Modal 002/008 - $4k is the "uber synth" price point apparently - absent the Schmidt or vintage poly's that are 2-5x this cost.

 

Many of the cutting edge sounds for movies and other uses are mangled samples of some kind or another. This puts that in a real-time tweaking package. Novel and will produce sounds not easily had elsewhere.

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So we're basically back to square one when it comes to the handling of the sample content?

Sample access is indeed very quick, almost unnoticeable.

But now I'm still in the dark about the entire process of how the sample content is accessed.

Furthermore, sample mangling requires the entire sample to be loaded, not just a beginning.

 

Also, a percussive sound takes up a less space than a 10-layer velocity switched unlooped piano, so there is probably a lot of variation between the different sample groups.

I wish DSI/8DIO would shed some light on the internals and how samples are handled.

 

When it comes to computer based VST's and the Prophet X there's a huge difference in the interface alone.

One is a generic platform which can be used for audio production purposes, the other is a musical instrument with hands-on tweakability, and the interaction with both is very different.

 

I also wonder about the internal SSD, is it easy replaceable by owners of the Prophet X with another SSD if there's defect, and how about the sample content on the SSD in case of a replacement, can it be downloaded somewhere or will replacement SSD's with the content be obtainable and installed by a DSI dealer or do you need to make your own image of the content in case something goes wrong?

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In the end... the only difference between this sound engine and the many high quallity VSTs is the analogue filte...

 

So how much better is this analogue filter then the computer programmed ones?

And if so, is that worth 4000?

 

 

VSTs don't give you the same kind of hands-on control as this dedicated control surface does. VSTs require a computer, this doesn't. What would this set of 8Dio samples cost in the VST realm? Could you do the same kind of sound mangling as easily, in real-time? And switch among the sounds as quickly? There are a whole bunch of differences even before you get to the analog filters.

 

I ought to agree with this...

 

But with the new hardware integrion seen with omnisphere 2.5

This might actually change.. i can see software getting the same interface as hardware(becaus ethe hardware is actually the interface)

 

What if i added some keyscape stuff and some oscilators in omsiphere

And controll it with a novation peak or Roland system 8..

The only difference would in fact be the analogue filter..

 

Leaves again the question..

How much difference is there between omspheres plethora in filters and the prophet x filter in soundquallity?

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Hardware integration in Omnisphere is cool, but still a compromise, compared to all the controls the Prophet X has, pre-configured to do just the right things and logically laid out for its particular workflow. You have knobs that relate to information in adjacent displays. You have knobs that light up different sets of LEDs. It's a bit more involved than finding a control surface that can roughly approximate the typical controls of a classic Moog/ARP/Oberheim style design.

 

Also, Omnisphere doesn't include the sample aspect, does it? Could you bring the 8Dio sample set into it? I see you mentioned keyscape, but it sounds like that would be its own soundset, and not sounds you could mangle inside Omnisphere, am I right? If that's so, it seems to me you'd be missing a lot of what the Prophet X is designed to do. It's not merely a synth and a rompler in the same box, but one where you can process the rompler sounds through the synth in real time. Can Omnisphere do that?

 

Then there are the other questions that always come up when comparing hardware and software... Will you be able to load and switch between sounds as quickly? Will latency become an issue as you increase your demands on the system?

 

What would your alternate configuration cost, including Omnisphere, the 8Dio library, the Roland System 8, and a computer that could do a first rate job at running it all?

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Hardware integration in Omnisphere is cool.....

 

Also, Omnisphere doesn't include the sample aspect, does it? Could you bring the 8Dio sample set into it? I see you mentioned keyscape, but it sounds like that would be its own soundset, and not sounds you could mangle inside Omnisphere, am I right? If that's so, it seems to me you'd be missing a lot of what the Prophet X is designed to do. It's not merely a synth and a rompler in the same box, but one where you can process the rompler sounds through the synth in real time. Can Omnisphere do that?

 

I have Omnisphere and an OB-6 (one of the supported synths for the new hardware control). After watching the video on the upcoming 2.5 release, I'm not sure what the point is. They used Omnisphere to set up an OB-6 signal path. So now I can use hardware to control software making the kinds of sounds the hardware makes? Why not just play the hardware? I will play with it when it comes out, but there must be more to it, and I'm not getting it yet. Most of the really cool stuff in Omnisphere is not on any hardware synth, so a mouse will be required.

 

Omnisphere has a huge sample set behind it (not as big as Prophet X, though). Furthermore, every Spectrasonics product can be accessed from Omnisphere, including Keyscape. Keyscape comes with sounds that use the Omnisphere library. They sound great. Omnisphere offers far more sample mangling possibilities than the Prophet X, a bigger mod matrix, more polyphony, more FX, etc.

 

The Prophet-X is desirable for the reasons you point out about hardware control vs software, but Omnisphere can definitely do the sort of manipulation that the Prophet X can and a lot more. The filters won't sound the same, the samples will be different, etc.

 

But I find myself just experimenting and programing on my hardware synths regularly. The VST/AUs tend to be preset monsters - find the sound, play it without tweaking. Omnisphere is ridiculously capable - a beast of a synth, and it gets better all the time. But it isn't as fast or direct as hardware.

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Somebody mentioned that weighted keyboards have been discussed ?

I would seriously consider switching to a TP100 (or similar) Prophet X from my NE5HP if the weight stay reasonable :->

 

Maurizio

Nord Wave 2, Nord Electro 6D 61,, Rameau upright,  Hammond Pro44H Melodica.

Too many Arturia, NI and AAS plugins

http://www.barbogio.org/

 

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Omnisphere has a huge sample set behind it (not as big as Prophet X, though). Furthermore, every Spectrasonics product can be accessed from Omnisphere, including Keyscape...Omnisphere can definitely do the sort of manipulation that the Prophet X can and a lot more.

Thanks for that info.

 

The filters won't sound the same, the samples will be different

People paid more for a Minimoog than they could for more capable, less expensive synthesizers, because they didn't sound the same. People pay more for a Mojo61 than they do for a Roland V-09. If comparing sound is as important as comparing functionality, then there would appear to be no direct software equivalent to the Prophet X, i.e. something that would sound the same. KP asked whether the filter is worth $4k,, but the filter isn't the only (or even necessarily the biggest) source of sonic difference, if you have a completely different set of underlying samples to mangle. The $4k is getting you entirely different sounds (as well as a different way to interface with their creation/manipulation).

 

It's also a red herring to ask if the filter is worth $4k when $4k is not the premium you pay over an Omnisphere-based system, but rather the entire price. It's not like an Omnisphere-based system is free. Even his proposed system of Omnisphere, Keyscape, and a System 8 approaches $2500 without any computer cost, and with a less capable control surface, as you point out when you say, "most of the really cool stuff in Omnisphere is not on any hardware synth, so a mouse will be required. "

 

They used Omnisphere to set up an OB-6 signal path. So now I can use hardware to control software making the kinds of sounds the hardware makes? Why not just play the hardware?

Kind of getting back to what I said about the Minimoog and Mojo61... you may be using a similar set of controls, but presumably you will be able to interact with sounds that sound quite different from those that come out of the machine directly.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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There are actually a ton of demo videos from 8Dio, not all of which show on their web site. A few of the more recent ones include:

 

Fretlessness:

[video:youtube]sKkHYqFTbbc

 

Chamber Harps:

[video:youtube]lVv2rmWkEVs

 

Grand Piano 1928:

[video:youtube]UAZM8wflDVs

 

Saxophonetic:

[video:youtube]bxgtrdjlWoE

 

Taped Upright:

[video:youtube]msVfNY7ds14

 

Shimmer Brightly:

[video:youtube]15WIlpezq5I

 

130 BPM:

[video:youtube]bu8XsgJctQA

Acoustic: Shigeru Kawai SK-7 ~ Breedlove C2/R

MIDI: Kurzweil Forte ~ Sequential Prophet X ~ Yamaha CP88 ~ Expressive E Osmose

Electric: Schecter Solo Custom Exotic ~ Chapman MLB1 Signature Bass

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  • 3 weeks later...

Composer Charlie Clouser (Saw, etc) wrote an extensive review after playing with the Prophet X for several hours over on VI-Control.

 

Prophet X review

 

If you read down just a post or two further, he compares it to the Waldorf Quantum.

 

From my read, he confirms everything I hoped or suspected was true of the instrument, particularly that it is immediately musical and easy to make great sounds on in typical DSI fashion.

 

If you are interested in the Prophet X, Charlie is a VERY experienced synthesist (originally in Nine-inch-Nails), and this is worth reading.

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I just checked the link again with no problems. You may need to be signed into an account on the forum to have access to attachments like that.

Acoustic: Shigeru Kawai SK-7 ~ Breedlove C2/R

MIDI: Kurzweil Forte ~ Sequential Prophet X ~ Yamaha CP88 ~ Expressive E Osmose

Electric: Schecter Solo Custom Exotic ~ Chapman MLB1 Signature Bass

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Charlie is a VERY experienced synthesist (originally in Nine-inch-Nails), and this is worth reading.

 

I agree. Thanks for posting. :thu:

 

+1. This is what I always hope to see when a new tool grabs my attention: a real player who describes the heart of it as an instrument, apart from the specs. I'm enjoying *this* case of GAS much more than usual. Praise Dave, as well as anyone who throws money into my Prophet X hat for my unsettling dancing and endearing kazoo covers.

 

 "I want to be an intellectual, but I don't have the brainpower.
  The absent-mindedness, I've got that licked."
        ~ John Cleese

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Loving most of the demos. Can't wait to try one in a store - after watching ProfD show how its done of course.

Ha. :D

 

Gov, we'll coordinate a micro-mini-hang. I'll let you know when I'm at Chucks. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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Gov, we'll coordinate a micro-mini-hang. I'll let you know when I'm at Chucks. :cool:

 

OT now (of course :laugh: ). If I am there also is it still considered a micro-mini-hang or would it be upgraded to a mini hang? :idk :D

:nopity:
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Gov, we'll coordinate a micro-mini-hang. I'll let you know when I'm at Chucks. :cool:

 

OT now (of course :laugh: ). If I am there also is it still considered a micro-mini-hang or would it be upgraded to a mini hang? :idk :D

Yessir. If either you and/or Marky decides to show up, it becomes a mini-hang. :laugh:

 

Back OT, from the Sequential X demos, I can hear a sound designer's dream. I'm definitely curious to hear the X in the hands of a performing muso. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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Not sure if this has been mentioned over here:

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/news/prophet-x-uses-filter-new-audio-chip-makers

 

The Prophet X uses a new filter chip (SSI2144) that is based on the classic SSM2044.

 

Does it matter in a synth that mainly uses waveforms other than harmonically consistent sawtooth and pulse waves?

 

I think you're the first here, because Sound Semiconductor only made this announcement a couple of days ago. I guess an NDA made them wait until the PX started shipping before they would be allowed to say anything.

 

BTW, it seems a couple guys important to synth history were involved:

Then there was SSM (Solid State Micro Technology for Music), founded by Dan Parks, whose chips were used in Rev 1 and Rev 2 Prophet-5s as well as Korgs Mono/Poly and Polysix.

 

Dan Parks is now back and heading up Sound Semiconductor with the goal of developing affordable, high-performance ICs for electronic music and pro audio.

 

The SSI2144 is an updated and improved re-issue of the SSM2044, which found its way into the aforementioned Mono/Poly and Polysix, and which many believe to be the best-sounding filter IC ever produced. Both the original SSM2044 and new SSI2144 were designed by electronic music icon Dave Rossum.

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It has been discussed elsewhere as something of an open secret, but its great to see formal confirmation. It is certainly a part of the sound that really speaks to me on the Prophet X.

Acoustic: Shigeru Kawai SK-7 ~ Breedlove C2/R

MIDI: Kurzweil Forte ~ Sequential Prophet X ~ Yamaha CP88 ~ Expressive E Osmose

Electric: Schecter Solo Custom Exotic ~ Chapman MLB1 Signature Bass

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Ive seen confirmation from several people with tracking numbers, and Im happy that mine is among them. I dont have an estimated delivery date yet but at least one fellow reports having an expedited date (or local pickup?) of tomorrow. Mine will likely arrive early next week.

 

Impressions incoming.

Acoustic: Shigeru Kawai SK-7 ~ Breedlove C2/R

MIDI: Kurzweil Forte ~ Sequential Prophet X ~ Yamaha CP88 ~ Expressive E Osmose

Electric: Schecter Solo Custom Exotic ~ Chapman MLB1 Signature Bass

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Early impressions from my first couple of hours:

 

Beautifully constructed, this is a build that lives up to expectations set by the price point. The semi-weighted action feels good (1), the ashen stained end caps match the dark metallic aesthetic better than any natural stain possibly could, and in my limited time so far all of the controls have a nice solid feel to them. It is a knobby synthesizer at heart with obvious DSI heritage.

 

A quick tour is really all Ive had time for, but there are both standout moments and aspects that Im going to have to explore deeper before Im entirely sure what to think. Theres also a lot I need to look at more deeply, including the effects. Essentially all Ive done is dial in the plate reverb with some percussion and its wonderfully stunning. I could have played that kit for hours.

 

The stereo filters are obviously a centerpiece of the tools at a sound designers disposal and they are glorious. Warm and buttery, with resonance that can be subtle or aggressive. I havent played with drive much just yet, so thats also on my list to explore further. In the time Ive had this evening I have only sped through the first of four banks of presets. Theres a ton here, and so far its really wide ranging with more of a tendency toward exuberance than bread and butter.

 

I should also point out the part Im least blown away by, which is plain, exposed sample playback. First and foremost, the Prophet X is not going to replace anyones modern sampler. This should be obvious from reading the manual, but its still something of a shock in practice, and anyone hoping otherwise should adjust their expectations. The samples appear to be well recorded and plentiful, but the lack of any per-sample editing or synthesis parameters means youre going to use them in a very particular fashion. You cant tweak a single drum differently than the rest of a drum kit: one pan position/filter/tuning/etc configuration applies to the entire kit. You cant freely mix and match samples from different keymaps. Theres no overt provision for switching between among keymaps based on velocity, though its certainly possible to cross fade between two if desired.

 

No, its not really a sampler. Its a synthesizer whose oscillators can draw from raw sample material. With that in mind Im not entirely convinced just yet that the samples offered are the most useful set imaginable. Theyre a little specific and literal, drawn as they are from a primarily acoustic library. Still, theres quite a range on offer and there are definitely a number of unusual ambiances and other textures to explore in addition to the familiar and more exotic acoustic fare.

 

So it has to come down to doing more than just mixing samples and calling it a day. Finding out just how far you can go with the tools here will be interesting. Those are the terms on which I plan to address the Prophet X and Im going to need time to dig in that I wont have much of before the weekend. There are a number of patches Ive come across that have only oscillators sounding, and theyre still marvelously complex and expressive. Just familiar. So, Im expecting the real magic is in letting samples and oscillators interact, and thats where Im going to be digging deeper.

 

I wish I could spend more time tonight but, alas, meetings tomorrow morning mandate that I get a reasonable nights sleep.

 

(1) I am going to have to explore the velocity curve options because the factory setting appears to have a pretty narrow usable range. Its easy to produce extremely low and high velocities but the middle of the range takes a unfamiliar touch.

Acoustic: Shigeru Kawai SK-7 ~ Breedlove C2/R

MIDI: Kurzweil Forte ~ Sequential Prophet X ~ Yamaha CP88 ~ Expressive E Osmose

Electric: Schecter Solo Custom Exotic ~ Chapman MLB1 Signature Bass

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  • 1 month later...
Lady Gaia, thank you so much for your reviews here and on the Dave Smith forum. I'm pulling the trigger on this in the next few weeks. Coming from a Nord Stage 3 and a DeepMind 12, so a big change for me. I'll keep you posted!

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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