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#2927116 - 05/15/18 07:28 AM 88 backline
Tonysounds Offline
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Registered: 08/11/05
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Touring brethren….

What has been the most consistently provided 88 weighted (or not, depending on your experience) for your rider? Not what you want necessarily, but when you showed up, you saw THIS more than anything else.

I’m reducing my road rig down to my SK1 76, and my Roland Integra 7. Currently I use my Kawai MP7 as the controller for my Integra, using only one Performance on the module and doing all patch changes etc from the Kawai. I’m going to reverse engineer this and save each program change as its own performance (assuming I can do it in less than 64) so that no matter what POS 88 they throw in front of me, assuming it can least send a program change, expression and modulation via pedal and wheels, I’m good.

Or is that a losing battle.
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#2927120 - 05/15/18 07:48 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: Tonysounds]
Toano88 Offline
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Quote:
so that no matter what POS 88 they throw in front of me, assuming it can least send a program change

One suggestion, if you have an iPad you wouldn't need to send program change you could do it wireless using a Roland wireless adapter ($52). You could also do it from your phone. It could save you setup time.
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#2927121 - 05/15/18 07:50 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: Tonysounds]
AnotherScott Offline
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I haven't done much, but in my limited experience... Yamahas. But I can't imagine counting on any backline for patch changing of my gear. You really want to figure out how to get (or program in) your up-to-64 program changes out of some piece you've never seen before the day of the gig? Just travel with a smartphone or tablet and do your patch changes from that. Alternatively, you can MIDI merge your SK1 and the 88 into your Integra, and use your SK1 to send patch changes to your Integra on a MIDI channel the Hammond isn't playing on but the 88 is, though that would be inconvenient if you want to send a patch change to the Integra while simultaneously playing the organ. But if you just send a patch change once (i.e. before the songs starts), that wouldn't be an issue.
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#2927123 - 05/15/18 08:05 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: AnotherScott]
Tonysounds Offline
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Good suggestions, but non starters for a couple reasons. I front the band, so I don’t really have the ability to do ipad changes while playing and singing. My patch changes happen IN songs as well as between them.

My thinking is the touring guys know whats been available for them versus what they wanted. If its some thing I can work with I can get my hands on a couple via rental for a few days, work up the protocols, save to thumbdrives, and be able to plug n play. Motifs….Fantoms…..CP4s…

If Hammond would fix their midi implementation, I could possibly reconfigure the WHOLE rig using my SK188 and the Integra, and just travel the SK1 88.

I’ve decided that the PERFECT controller for me is an SK188 keybed (or the whole machine frankly) but with wheels, another pedal insert, and midi implementation that would resemble something at least like 1995. SK188 Integra would slay if they could play nice.
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#2927130 - 05/15/18 08:30 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: Tonysounds]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
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Originally Posted By: Tonysounds
I front the band, so I don’t really have the ability to do ipad changes while playing and singing.

What's so different about using the iPad/iPhone vs. a mystery board's own controls, such that you'd have the ability to do the latter but not the former? My first thought is wanting to avoid a touchscreen, which may take your eyes away from the audience more... though if you're using buttons that you don't use all the time, you'd probably still have to do it visually rather than largely by feel. How about traveling with a keypad? i.e.

http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/midipatch.htm

Since you have free panel space on your SK1, you can leave it attached to that, so it will always be in the same place, and it is less to set up.


Originally Posted By: Tonysounds
work up the protocols, save to thumbdrives, and be able to plug n play. Motifs….Fantoms…..CP4s…

So many variables! What if a board doesn't let you define the buttons to send particular Program Changes? Or doesn't have enough buttons, and you need to call up different banks or scroll to get to as many program changes as you need? Or you unexpectedly end up with something you've never seen before? Or it's a Kronos, which brings you back to touchscreen operation (then you might as well have an iPad)? I think you really want to come up wth some solution where your patch changing mechanism is the same night after night.


Originally Posted By: Tonysounds
If Hammond would fix their midi implementation, I could possibly reconfigure the WHOLE rig using my SK188 and the Integra, and just travel the SK1 88.

I’ve decided that the PERFECT controller for me is an SK188 keybed (or the whole machine frankly) but with wheels, another pedal insert, and midi implementation that would resemble something at least like 1995. SK188 Integra would slay if they could play nice.

What limitations have you run into with the SK1's MIDI implementation?
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#2927132 - 05/15/18 08:34 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: Tonysounds]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
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I've been touring for over five years with AWB and while I bring my own Roland controller, our sax player plays aux keys and he always gets a Motif. Now, that might be because we specifically ask for one – I haven't examined our rider. But, the fact that every backline company we've dealt with has supplied us with one tells me that they must be very common items. He usually gets a 76-key model but I've seen him get an 88 occasionally. He carries his patches on a USB stick. When I first started with the band, before my frequent flyer status allowed us to fly my keyboard for free, I would usually get a Motif but once in a while I'd see a Fantom.

In my limited experience with these rental boards, I think it was possible to send program changes though they do it in "banks" so you might need to spend a minute or two getting the lay of the land. Also, a trip through the setup menus to configure PC transmission, channel #, etc. I know that on the Motifs you have to make sure the correct midi output is selected – USB or 5-pin. It wasn't that hard to suss out, and of course there are a few folks here who know these instruments – unlike myself!

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#2927152 - 05/15/18 10:07 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: Reezekeys]
Sven Golly Offline
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Yamaha CP300, Motif xx8 (I've seen'em all, from original series to XF), and Roland RD series are the most common in the continental US for backline. There's always exceptions, but you can count on one or more of the above to be available to you.
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#2927159 - 05/15/18 10:31 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: Sven Golly]
timwat Offline
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In my limited experience, some version of a Yamaha.

I've been served up Motifs (older and most current versions) as well as those 88 key MO or whatever the trickle-down version is called.
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#2927166 - 05/15/18 11:16 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: timwat]
dglcomp Offline
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Registered: 05/06/18
Posts: 15
How about a Behringer FCB1010 and have all the program changes programmed into that.
10 banks of 10 patches and would give you a couple of expression pedals as well, also has a built in PSU so no one to lose.
Regular din MIDI output with the option of merging the midi input with the output meaning it can be connected in line with the midi cable coming from whatever 88 keyboard you get.

Plus (mine at least, although never gigged) seems built like a tank.
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#2927168 - 05/15/18 11:36 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: dglcomp]
paughrock Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 280
CP-300...done all of North America and Europe multiple times and have requested and received this 90% of the time.


Edited by paughrock (05/15/18 11:38 AM)

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#2927169 - 05/15/18 11:44 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: dglcomp]
Ulf Offline
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Registered: 10/23/14
Posts: 347
Originally Posted By: dglcomp
How about a Behringer FCB1010 and have all the program changes programmed into that.
10 banks of 10 patches and would give you a couple of expression pedals as well, also has a built in PSU so no one to lose.


This seems like the best bet, I'd rather not have to figure out how a new-to-me keyboard happens to handle control messages.
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#2927173 - 05/15/18 11:51 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: Ulf]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
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Yes, CP300 is super common. I *think* it can hold 64 "master" Program Changes, though navigation could be a bit cumbersome... I think it's 4 scrollable programs under each of the 16 sound select buttons...?

I think FCB1010 is kind of big and heavy to travel with if ALL you're going to use it for is patch selection. But it does have the virtue of keeping your hands free. You could also look at a smaller/lighter Rocktron MIDI Mate or Rolls MP128.
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#2927176 - 05/15/18 12:21 PM Re: 88 backline [Re: AnotherScott]
mynameisdanno Offline
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Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 464
I would second CP-300 as the almost universally available option. Don't know how easy it is to send program changes from them though.

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#2927178 - 05/15/18 12:32 PM Re: 88 backline [Re: mynameisdanno]
LX88 Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1896
I don't have a " rider" but I do rentals, so I see a lot of what people ask for.

For some reason I get more request for Roland than I do Yamaha. I have seen lot more requests for the Yamaha CP4 lately though.

In a Roland people seem to ask for the 700 series.... SX, GX, NX.

So it's split between Roland 700 whatever and Yamaha CP-4.

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#2927210 - 05/15/18 03:41 PM Re: 88 backline [Re: LX88]
David R Offline
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Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 1158
Loc: Montreal, QC
In the Americas (North & South), Yamaha CP4 or Motifs have been most common. In Europe, due to I guess some kind of misinterpretation of an email chain, I got Roland RDs.

My tech rider asks for Nord, Yamaha or Roland in that order, and any other substitutions have to be run by me in advance. That way I'm not taken by surprise on the day of the gig and I can download the manuals onto my phone in advance and program whatever I might need.
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#2927251 - 05/15/18 11:07 PM Re: 88 backline [Re: AnotherScott]
Tonysounds Offline
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Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 8653
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Tonysounds
I front the band, so I don’t really have the ability to do ipad changes while playing and singing.

What's so different about using the iPad/iPhone vs. a mystery board's own controls, such that you'd have the ability to do the latter but not the former? My first thought is wanting to avoid a touchscreen, which may take your eyes away from the audience more... though if you're using buttons that you don't use all the time, you'd probably still have to do it visually rather than largely by feel. How about traveling with a keypad? i.e.

http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/midipatch.htm

Since you have free panel space on your SK1, you can leave it attached to that, so it will always be in the same place, and it is less to set up.


Originally Posted By: Tonysounds
work up the protocols, save to thumbdrives, and be able to plug n play. Motifs….Fantoms…..CP4s…

So many variables! What if a board doesn't let you define the buttons to send particular Program Changes? Or doesn't have enough buttons, and you need to call up different banks or scroll to get to as many program changes as you need? Or you unexpectedly end up with something you've never seen before? Or it's a Kronos, which brings you back to touchscreen operation (then you might as well have an iPad)? I think you really want to come up wth some solution where your patch changing mechanism is the same night after night.


Originally Posted By: Tonysounds
If Hammond would fix their midi implementation, I could possibly reconfigure the WHOLE rig using my SK188 and the Integra, and just travel the SK1 88.

I’ve decided that the PERFECT controller for me is an SK188 keybed (or the whole machine frankly) but with wheels, another pedal insert, and midi implementation that would resemble something at least like 1995. SK188 Integra would slay if they could play nice.

What limitations have you run into with the SK1's MIDI implementation?

\
The whole idea of determining which 88s show up most often is that i WONT be a stranger to the board. I'll have rented one for a few days to get what I need to know out of it. Store setups on a thumb drive even. I've owned a Motif for years, S90es, Roland A90, A80, I could make any of them work for this utility.

As for SK1 limitations, we can start with no independent control of expression per zone. One size fits all, even when you dont want expression to affect a zone. There are not P/M wheels or wiggle stick. There is one pedal jack, and its not assignable. For starters.
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#2927252 - 05/15/18 11:10 PM Re: 88 backline [Re: dglcomp]
Tonysounds Offline
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Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 8653
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Originally Posted By: dglcomp
How about a Behringer FCB1010 and have all the program changes programmed into that.
10 banks of 10 patches and would give you a couple of expression pedals as well, also has a built in PSU so no one to lose.
Regular din MIDI output with the option of merging the midi input with the output meaning it can be connected in line with the midi cable coming from whatever 88 keyboard you get.

Plus (mine at least, although never gigged) seems built like a tank.


GOnna look into this! Great suggestion!
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#2927253 - 05/15/18 11:11 PM Re: 88 backline [Re: Tonysounds]
Tonysounds Offline
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Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 8653
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Yeah figured Motif is everywhere. grin THanks for the assist!
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#2927255 - 05/16/18 12:22 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: Tonysounds]
niacin Offline
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If you can do it with less than 64 performances, why not do all the programming on the Integra and just send performance change messages from the SK1, I've always done that though now I do it from an SK2. You can turn on or off MIDI receive messages such as expression separately for each of the 16 parts in a performance on the Integra. I get you'd want to have another keyboard sending pedal and wheel info so you'd couple them into the Integra, but I've not run into any MIDI limitations as such in the SK1-Integra pairing idk .
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#2927270 - 05/16/18 04:06 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: Tonysounds]
Legatoboy Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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Loc: Huntington Sta., New York (LI)
Originally Posted By: Tonysounds
Originally Posted By: dglcomp
How about a Behringer FCB1010 and have all the program changes programmed into that.
10 banks of 10 patches and would give you a couple of expression pedals as well, also has a built in PSU so no one to lose.
Regular din MIDI output with the option of merging the midi input with the output meaning it can be connected in line with the midi cable coming from whatever 88 keyboard you get.

Plus (mine at least, although never gigged) seems built like a tank.


GOnna look into this! Great suggestion!


I have one I'm not using BTW....hit me in a PM if your interested...got it on EBAY before I bought my MTG mappers.
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#2927281 - 05/16/18 05:06 AM Re: 88 backline [Re: niacin]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 12475
Originally Posted By: Tonysounds
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Tonysounds
work up the protocols, save to thumbdrives, and be able to plug n play. Motifs….Fantoms…..CP4s…

So many variables! What if a board doesn't let you define the buttons to send particular Program Changes? Or doesn't have enough buttons, and you need to call up different banks or scroll to get to as many program changes as you need? Or you unexpectedly end up with something you've never seen before? Or it's a Kronos, which brings you back to touchscreen operation (then you might as well have an iPad)? I think you really want to come up wth some solution where your patch changing mechanism is the same night after night.

The whole idea of determining which 88s show up most often is that i WONT be a stranger to the board. I'll have rented one for a few days to get what I need to know out of it. Store setups on a thumb drive even. I've owned a Motif for years, S90es, Roland A90, A80, I could make any of them work for this utility.

I understand that, I was talking about he variables that remain. You arrive, and the board isn't what they told you it would be (and could conceivably be something you're unprepared for). Or it's a Kronos and (I think) you've already determined that you don't want to use a touchscreen for patch recall. Or it's the ubiquitous CP300, which is workable, but probably somewhat awkward to navigate for this purpose (probably more demanding of your attention than a touchscreen/iPad would be).

(Sideways thought: Even boards that have minimal MIDI capabilities may still send out MIDI Program Changes 0-63 simply when you call up their first 64 native sounds. If that's all you need to access, then many boards could conceivably work with no advance prep, thumb drive loading, etc... just by using their native patch navigation buttons to instantly call up your 64 Integra sounds as a "by-product" of calling up their own sounds...?)

p.s. - In case you missed my other post, since you liked the FCB1010 idea, there are those other foot controllers that have fewer functions but could still do what you want, in what you might find to be a more travel-friendly chassis.
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#2927924 - 05/19/18 12:35 PM Re: 88 backline [Re: AnotherScott]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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Registered: 09/08/05
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Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
FYI there is a Roland A90 Extended (Expanded?) model at GC in Concord CA that I saw and played today. VERY impressive keybed/action and feature set, with lots of hands-on control over parameters of all kind. There was no price tag on it and the store was mobbed with only a few workers so I didn't wait in line to ask. Someone else local might want to grab it while they can.
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#2927944 - 05/19/18 01:35 PM Re: 88 backline [Re: Mark Schmieder]
davedoerfler Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
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Originally Posted By: Mark Schmieder
FYI there is a Roland A90 Extended (Expanded?) model at GC in Concord CA that I saw and played today. VERY impressive keybed/action and feature set, with lots of hands-on control over parameters of all kind.


excellent keyboard, big as a battleship, weighs a ton. Should come with roadies. laugh
Pretty sure Tony (OP) used to own one.
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