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New synth: DSI Sequential X


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If you can't play "Jump" on it, its not the fault of the instrument. Why are you doing that anyway, unless you *want* for someone to peg you in the back of the head with a large potato?

:hitt:

 

Since its 8-voice stereo and 16 mono, I wonder if using a piano sample in mono mode is still enough to pull off some lively Tony-Banks-style two-hander gestures? If you're going to include a serious piano sound, its natural to want that sort of beef. I look forward to hearing the range of samples vs. the more "pure" synth wave allotment. That will answer a lot of my questions about the color palette.

 

 

 "I want to be an intellectual, but I don't have the brainpower.
  The absent-mindedness, I've got that licked."
        ~ John Cleese

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... deep-sampled instruments ...

Thousands of deep-sampled instruments ...

Several deep-sampled drum kits ...

Deep Assortment ...

 

They like it deep obviously ...

 

Me too,- tall & deep (that´s what HE said) :D

 

Custom Wavetables.

 

Deal breaker,- ´cause they don´t mention those are deep-sampled too !

 

A.C.

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I assume an osc can contain a complex multi-velocity multisample, otherwise, I don't see how this "deep sampling" is going to work.

 

Now the question is, can a single osc also contain all these articulations: sustain, una, staccatissimo, staccato and all the repetitions? And the intelligence to do round robins and determine that you're playing staccato, for example?

 

 

They differentiate between "OSC" and "Instrument".

 

I´m pretty sure you already understood that architecture detail ...

But,- "just sayin´"

 

:)

 

A.C.

 

 

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I think someone mentioned the analog filters as being part of the reason for low polyphony. Am I daft? I don't quite understand that. I would've thought polyphony only related to oscillators/sample size. Sorry, no time to Svengle. You can leave me in the dark if you prefer. :laugh:

 

Each and every voice of polyphony has to have it's own filter to run through. With analog, that means a completely separate duplicate filter circuit for each voice. In the digital world, this all done through DSP so it's just a matter of processing power and speed, whereas with analog, it's adding additional circuits which take up real estate and get expensive.

I think someone mentioned the analog filters as being part of the reason for low polyphony. Am I daft? I don't quite understand that. I would've thought polyphony only related to oscillators/sample size. Sorry, no time to Svengle. You can leave me in the dark if you prefer. :laugh:

 

Each voice is going through an analog filter independently (and the related voice specific EGs, modulators, etc) hence the limiting factor. You could just slam an analog filter on to the end of the chain and have it affect all voices, but that's very different.

 

Busch.

 

Thanks fellas. :hitt::wave:

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My first synth was a model D. A 4 oct keyboard does not feel that small to me. :)

 

+1 ...

Since I lost 2 fingers in WW1 and 2 more in WW2, the model D was welcome.

Today and in my age, I give a s##t on polyphony.

 

A.C.

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not even in the same league synthwise as the incredible Waldorf Quantum.

Thing is, i have a Waldorf Quantum on pre-order. I got to say that synthwise, so far the only place the Quantum was incredible as a synthesizer - was on paper. There were so many youtube demos, and the last ones from synthmania - and as good as the Quantum's supposed to be on paper - somehow all the demos are lame.

Vermona Perfourmer mkii, Nord Stage 3 76
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Especially the part about the 150GB of deep samples but only 16 note polyphony. I get that they have to run it through the analog filters but a ROMpler with severely limited polyphony hurts.

It probably hurts less if you don't think of it as a ROMpler, but if you think of it primarily as a synth (kind of a very souped-up Nord Wave, as I mentioned earlier).

 

OH, so it's okay for Dave to make a 5-octave Prophet X; but, he can't make a 5-octave P6 or OB6???

He can if he wants to. ;-) But I can see a number of things that justify 5 octaves on this vs. the others... the price, piano sounds, the sheer size of the control panel.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I assume an osc can contain a complex multi-velocity multisample, otherwise, I don't see how this "deep sampling" is going to work.

 

Now the question is, can a single osc also contain all these articulations: sustain, una, staccatissimo, staccato and all the repetitions? And the intelligence to do round robins and determine that you're playing staccato, for example?

 

 

They differentiate between "OSC" and "Instrument".

 

I´m pretty sure you already understood that architecture detail ...

But,- "just sayin´"

 

:)

 

A.C.

 

 

You're right.

 

Busch.

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To be slightly honest, I think the machine sounds a little nerve-wrecking:

 

[video:youtube]bsfogjhNRmw

 

Powerful architecture ? Probably in some objective sense, but apart from explicit mid-averaging (my term) for instance the Valkyrie has a bit more sympathy from me, even through it doesn't have a partially analog signal path. I don't have the impression this is made to excel in ways I'll miss.

 

T

 

 

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It can probably somewhat pretend to ROMple if that's all you want it to do. But surely the early demos are showing just how whacked out the sound engine can get. It is up to the tasteful constraints of the artist performing on the thing to decide how far to take it, right? INHALT has some tasty moments in that vid, imho. Heck, some of the most cherished synths (or ANY instrument for that matter) can make some pretty wretched sounds if coerced to do so.

 

I would love the opportunity to try my hand at breaking this bucking bronco and am anxious to hear what some other rough-rider synth wanglers will do with the thing. Yee-HA !

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Looks like DSI has re-invented the Korg DSS-1. Not meant to be a slight either - Korg never made another product like the DSS-1.

I loved mine...

dB

Ditto - surprisingly easy to program, considering the data slider/menu design. Dual delays were very hip at the time.

I gigged an used this board at home for years...the disk drive became frustratingly slow in it's later years, but that was all to common at the time.

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Review of reasonably supported heresay. I think most of the stuff I included here are facts. Especially the parts preceded by "I think....".

 

I think I have a grasp of what the Prophet X is. I'm gonna try to be useful. Forgive me if it's just Mr. Obvious. Most of this is review for most. And lots of repeat. Just felt inclined to summarize it. Please correct errors you see.

 

________

NOT YOUR POPPA's MULTISAMPLER

It is not like the user multisampling equipped keyboards from Korg, Kurzweil, Yamaha & Roland. It's got some similarities & differences to the different sampling in Nord.

 

NOT A SAMPLER

It's not a sampler in that it doesn't sample, and doesn't have direct file-level view or editing of a sample. Has USB port for sample import. On the keyboard, you can load a keymap, but I believe you can't see or edit a sample directly.

 

SAMPLE SYNTH?

Thinking of it as a "sample synth" makes sense to me. As we know, it has wonderful real-time Sample Controls in that section. Plus, these are in the 16x2 mod-matrix.

________

SAMPLE STRUCTURE

Sample->Keymap->instrument->Layer->Program->Enlightenment

 

Structure as I understand it:

1 Program can have 2 layers. Split or Stack.

1 layer has 2 oscillators & 2 instruments.

1 instrument loads one "keymap".

 

Eventually a user will be able to create a keymap on a computer, and load it into the Prophet X.

1 keymap can contain from

- 1 sample, on one key, one velocity level .... to

- Tons of samples, mapped to lots of keys, and lots of velocity levels

 

A keymap is loaded into RAM. Max per instrument is 1.5GB RAM. Therefore, max keymaps loaded at one time is 6GB. 2 instruments X 2 layers.

 

Switching programs that have different keymaps loaded into the instrument slots is quick, though not instantaneous. What hasn't been demonstrated is how long it would take to load a Program that has instrument slots filled to their max RAM capacity. I.e., how long does it take to load 6GB of new keymaps into RAM. I have the suspicion it's at an acceptable modern rate. (But, no seamless transition. Not a traditional modern multisample player.)

 

SAMPLES, ENCASED AS INSTRUMENTS, FOR SYNTHESIS

Key point: The interaction between the samples and synthesis is via the "instrument". Think of instrument as a DSI oscillator. Instrument could be one sample, on one key, one velocity level short or the other multisample, multi-vel-level extreme. And, there are instrument-specific actions that are characteristically useful in manipulating samples. (see Sampler Player controls and related source-destinations.)

 

REAL-TIME SAMPLE CONTROL

The sample control knobs are the most interesting "drive" controls for the sample side. They include knobs for sample start & stop, loop size and center and buttons for loop on and reverse. Again, these are represented in the mod matrix. It's this classic DSI, heart-of-the matter & synthesis-integrated approach that's an enticing approach to sample playing. (And it's got the two strips on the left.)

 

________

ROMPLER TODAY, USB-SLOT LOADED USER-MULTISAMPLER SYNTH DECEMBER

As of now, 150GB is reserved for 8DIO library- feeling similar to Read Only Memory sounds. 50GB are reserved for user sampling. There will be more 8DIO libraries available. DSI is aiming for user sampling to become available in December, accompanied by a program to make the keymaps. There are hi-fi, high quality, character multisamples that can sometimes be 10 velocity levels deep. (Intelligent move allowing to leap frog into this game- with its own terms.)

 

[A week ago- that paragraph in a DSI product wasn't a thing- for most, except a privileged few. We had one here give us enough info to maintain post-teaser, pre-cat-bag sanity.]

 

 

SYNTH SIDE

And those multisampling sounds are integrated with the 2 digital oscillator (times 2 layers) synth. Supersaw here. (As in Pro 2, & not 12).

 

DEEP SYNTH COMPARISONS

The synth side in isolation is a little simpler than the Prophet 12. 2 osc, not 4. Also missing from Prophet 12 are/ L-R wave morphing, character, delay lines, & linear FM. But, there is *plenty* new-to-DSI (& generally exciting) synthesis to be explored because of the integration and interaction between the oscillators and instruments. (That's an understatement; and that is the mystery & intrigue that I imagine has sound hunters revved.) Remember, an instrument is a keymap, and a keymap could be a single sample or it could be a 10-velocity level multisample. The only limit I've seen mentioned is the 1.5GB max loaded per instrument. (Surely, there's got to be a velocity level limit, right? Or, a total sample count limit per playable instrument.)

 

________

POLYPHONY

Max polyphony is 8 stereo or 16 mono. A stacked Program can have 4 stereo voices, or 8 mono voices. (Not traditional multisample player.) In stereo, a new 24db filter is hardwired L, and another one right. Per stereo voice. A button allows to shift to 16 mono, off of 8 stereo. That's a good idea. Start in one mode, and shift as desired or needed based on the whim of your idea.

 

EFFECTS

There are 2 effects per layer. (4 total). And, different from Rev2, an additional parameter knob- totaling 3- per effect. (All of which are we represented in mod matrix.) I read that if FX are off, signal is all analog VCF forward. (As in Rev2.)

 

FILTER

Talk of filter sounding good. It's 24db only. But has a filter drive knob. (Circuit, not discrete, new for DSI.) PEK folk here know real well at what true stereo filter separation means. There's HPF as an effect. On the Rev2 I've found this to be good, with surprisingly no perceptible latency on a one-time check for it.

 

The instrument (sample) can be variably routed separately from the filter, and it has something like a "tone control".

 

OTHER DSI COMPARISONS

- 16x2 mod matrix, like the 12, whereas the Rev2 has 8x2.

- Has the polyphonic sequencer of the latest 3 analog synths. Rev2 also has gated "parameter" sequencer.

 

RUMOR 88

Read official pondering about a 73/88 key. Consider that pure speculation!

(I think it's the Rev2 keybed, which has less aftertouch flex, as does the 12.)

 

--

24lbs.

 

_________

WRAP UP

It's absolutely a gas to see on the DSI site, to have an offering that reads: "Great for traditional instruments such as ...." That's new.

 

Sounds like you can get a fully satisfying 61-key synth experience. And then jump to a 16 voice mono or 8 voice stereo multisample Rhodes, Wurlitzer, piano on synth action, strings, etc..... More than coulda been done on a previous deep synth with analog filters. Ever.

 

There are 4 knobs to control osc & instrument levels. There's a new vintage rotary effect. It won't be a B3 emulation, but you could control 2 instrument levels each containing multisamples. 2 drawbars? The dig osc can maybe become 2 peculiar drawbars. 8 voices, if stereo. And press the stack button to add the remaining drawbars. And have 4 voices. Again, not B3 emulation. And requires planning. But more than an analog synth approximating a B3.

 

Obviously I'm fascinated. I'm not in need. I'll check in to see how it shapes up. Sometimes I see it as a "wow. I've got to give it a go." Other times I feel like it's just another weightless action keyboard that makes noises and sounds. Still working on w at I've got. And maybe there's life beyond electronic keyboards. Or keyboards. Regardless, it's fascinating.

 

UPCOMING MILESTONES:

- user sampling a reality (it will be)

- assess the workflow and what's possible in creating user keymaps

- Play it for playability

 

X IS FOR PROPHET

- essential realtime crossfade parameter. This is so important, maybe this is the namesake

- Junction of two worlds: Sampling & Synthesis

- Attitude, supported by the black wood side panels. Nice touch.

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A keymap is loaded into RAM. Max per instrument is 1.5GB RAM. Therefore, max keymaps loaded at one time is 6GB. 2 instruments X 2 layers.

 

Switching programs that have different keymaps loaded into the instrument slots is quick, though not instantaneous. What hasn't been demonstrated is how long it would take to load a Program that has instrument slots filled to their max RAM capacity. I.e., how long does it take to load 6GB of new keymaps into RAM. I have the suspicion it's at an acceptable modern rate. (But, no seamless transition. Not a traditional modern multisample player.)

The site of 8DIO mentions 'Ultra-Low Latency. Instant load time'.

As you probably know, loading a sample library on the computer always takes time.

So it makes me wonder if DSI used sample streaming as we know it or applied a different technique.

I noticed that when asked about the sound content and RAM, the reply of DSI is always that there's '150 Gb onboard plus 50 Gb for additional content', period.

No mention of RAM and the size of it.

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FILTER

Talk of filter sounding good. It's 24db only. But has a filter drive knob. (Circuit, not discrete, new for DSI.) PEK folk here know real well at what true stereo filter separation means. There's HPF as an effect. On the Rev2 I've found this to be good, with surprisingly no perceptible latency on a one-time check for it.

 

Nice summary desetto! Regarding the filters I believe the resonance is common to both the left and right filter where in the PEK/MEK L/R filter resonance are independent modulation destinations.

 

_________

WRAP UP

 

... And maybe there's life beyond electronic keyboards.

 

 

You totally lost me here :crazy::laugh:

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A keymap is loaded into RAM. Max per instrument is 1.5GB RAM. Therefore, max keymaps loaded at one time is 6GB. 2 instruments X 2 layers.

 

Switching programs that have different keymaps loaded into the instrument slots is quick, though not instantaneous. What hasn't been demonstrated is how long it would take to load a Program that has instrument slots filled to their max RAM capacity. I.e., how long does it take to load 6GB of new keymaps into RAM.

The site of 8DIO mentions 'Ultra-Low Latency. Instant load time'.

As you probably know, loading a sample library on the computer always takes time.

So it makes me wonder if DSI used sample streaming as we know it or applied a different technique.

The Sonic State video says the sounds are stored on SSD. If there is indeed "instant load time," then I'd say it has to be streaming, as it would take some non-instant amount of time to load up to 6 GB of data into RAM. If load time is not quite that instant, 8 GB of RAM would hold as much sample data as it can play at once. Loading 6 GB of data from SSD into RAM would probably take 10+ seconds, though.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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So glad you all understood that everything I wrote is to be considered unverified clay to help us get a clear understanding of what this is.

 

Getting to the heart of how the samples are handled is key. Here's the support I have for my unverified understanding:

 

- A DSI employee told me the sounds are loaded into RAM.

- I read a lead DSI programmer write that an instrument can load a max of 1.5 GB samples into an instrument slot, so they can allow to buffer this times 4, due to the RAM limit.

- I saw a very casual video a Prophet X sound programmer make of going through and playing programs to specifically convey how long it takes for a random grouping of Programs to load. It seemed to be within 1 to 3, maybe 4 seconds.

 

 

Now, isn't this similar to the Kronos? I thought I read that a Kronos can load some sounds, if small enough, to RAM.

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Here's the support I have for my unverified understanding:

 

- A DSI employee told me the sounds are loaded into RAM.

- I read a lead DSI programmer write that an instrument can load a max of 1.5 GB samples into an instrument slot, so they can allow to buffer this times 4, due to the RAM limit.

- I saw a very casual video a Prophet X sound programmer make of going through and playing programs to specifically convey how long it takes for a random grouping of Programs to load. It seemed to be within 1 to 3, maybe 4 seconds.

This is pretty consistent with a no-streaming scenario. Although it would probably take 10+ seconds for 6 GB of data to load into RAM, most programs probably have less than half that much data. A program that has, for example, 4 sounds averaging 250 mb of sample data each (1 GB of total data), would probably load in 2-3 seconds. This also may bode well for boot time, as I am unaware of any streaming-capable system that doesn't take a long time to boot (I think because, in order to do that, they need to load a full linux or similar OS).

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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So glad you all understood that everything I wrote is to be considered unverified clay to help us get a clear understanding of what this is.

 

Getting to the heart of how the samples are handled is key. Here's the support I have for my unverified understanding:

 

- A DSI employee told me the sounds are loaded into RAM.

- I read a lead DSI programmer write that an instrument can load a max of 1.5 GB samples into an instrument slot, so they can allow to buffer this times 4, due to the RAM limit.

- I saw a very casual video a Prophet X sound programmer make of going through and playing programs to specifically convey how long it takes for a random grouping of Programs to load. It seemed to be within 1 to 3, maybe 4 seconds.

 

Now, isn't this similar to the Kronos? I thought I read that a Kronos can load some sounds, if small enough, to RAM.

Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense.

It also means that the 8DIO page is not correct in stating there is instant load time.

The KRONOS too uses sample streaming for quite a while now, and it really takes some time to load content.

 

I was wondering about that statement of 8DIO if it meant that maybe samples were read directly from some kind of flash ROM where their samples are stored into a much bigger flash ROM than with for instance the Motif, thus allowing them to be read instantly.

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Now, isn't this similar to the Kronos? I thought I read that a Kronos can load some sounds, if small enough, to RAM.

Sure, Kronos doesn't always stream, but whether the sound fully loads into RAM or streams is invisible to the user, and doesn't affect program switching time.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Loading into RAM makes sense due to the fact this synth is largely about manipulation of the samples, not a traditional players' instrument like the Kronos.

 

Imagine having the sequencer set up to change the playback start location of the sample randomly with each step. And imagine it set to 250BPM with 16 note duration. This won't work using streaming. Streaming works by always keeping just the starting segment of each sample in RAM and on the premise that it will bring in the rest of the sample sequentially, not randomly.

 

Busch.

 

 

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