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#2925373 - 05/05/18 09:59 AM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: burningbusch]
AnotherScott Offline
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Good point. Since the samples--beyond the starting point--need to be able to be accessed at random points in real time, they would have to be RAM resident rather than streamed.
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#2925374 - 05/05/18 10:01 AM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: Markyboard]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: dsetto



FILTER
Talk of filter sounding good. It's 24db only. But has a filter drive knob. (Circuit, not discrete, new for DSI.) PEK folk here know real well at what true stereo filter separation means. There's HPF as an effect. On the Rev2 I've found this to be good, with surprisingly no perceptible latency on a one-time check for it.


Nice summary desetto! Regarding the filters I believe the resonance is common to both the left and right filter where in the PEK/MEK L/R filter resonance are independent modulation destinations.


Here's a Poly Evolver Patch I programmed this week showing the stereo filter routing.


Edited by Markyboard (05/05/18 10:29 AM)

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#2925376 - 05/05/18 10:23 AM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: Markyboard]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard

Here's a Poly Evolver patch I programmed this week showing the stereo filter routing.


Track not found.
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#2925377 - 05/05/18 10:31 AM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: mate stubb]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5780
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: mate stubb
Originally Posted By: Markyboard

Here's a Poly Evolver patch I programmed this week showing the stereo filter routing.


Track not found.


Hmmm- I'm Soundcloud challenged - try it again

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#2925378 - 05/05/18 10:42 AM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: Markyboard]
burningbusch Offline
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To add to what I stated above, reverse samples are possible on the Kronos but only if the samples are loaded into RAM. Doesn't work with streaming. A simple application of sample manipulation.

Busch.

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#2925389 - 05/05/18 12:01 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: MojoGuyPan]
Radagast Offline
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Registered: 01/20/18
Posts: 100
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
#yawn


If you are bored why are you in this thread?

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#2925391 - 05/05/18 12:27 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: burningbusch]
dsetto Offline
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Registered: 01/28/15
Posts: 724
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Loading into RAM makes sense due to the fact this synth is largely about manipulation of the samples, not a traditional players' instrument like the Kronos.
You've just defined it. Thank you for connecting the "how", "why", & "what" dots.

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#2925403 - 05/05/18 01:54 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: Radagast]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: Radagast
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
#yawn


If you are bored why are you in this thread?


it's what trolls do. rolleyes
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#2925406 - 05/05/18 02:04 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: burningbusch]
John64 Offline
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Registered: 08/13/13
Posts: 82
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
To add to what I stated above, reverse samples are possible on the Kronos but only if the samples are loaded into RAM. Doesn't work with streaming. A simple application of sample manipulation.

Busch.

Yes, I should have thought of that, it makes sense.
I suppose 'instant load time' has to be taken with a grain of salt then.

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#2925436 - 05/05/18 05:46 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: davedoerfler]
MojoGuyPan Offline
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Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
Originally Posted By: Radagast
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
#yawn


If you are bored why are you in this thread?


it's what trolls do. rolleyes


So Carlo, Theo and I are trolls now because we aren't impressed with the spec or demos of the Prophet X? Fat chance.

Anyone with a negative opinion about a synth is a troll? Every new synth that comes out isn't the second coming of the Model D. Some are turkeys like the X, like the RD64.

I'm sure the X is decent but the reality is that it is less of a synth than the P12. It is a ROMpler. A ROMpler?! Dave said people have been asking him for a ROMpler for years so he decided to give the people what they want. I'd like to see who these people really are. They are not synthesists, I'll tell you that. And as far as it's capabilities, the Kronos runs circles around the X at a much lower price and much more polyphony.

Not a troll but a bringer of truth. Not every synth can be unicorns and rainbows.

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#2925458 - 05/05/18 08:12 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: MojoGuyPan]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
So Carlo, Theo and I are trolls now because we aren't impressed with the spec or demos of the Prophet X?


You are correct that Carlo and Theo are not trolls. wink
Just you. snax
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#2925460 - 05/05/18 08:25 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: MojoGuyPan]
Radagast Offline
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Registered: 01/20/18
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Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
Originally Posted By: Radagast
[quote=MojoGuyPan]#yawn


If you are bored why are you in this thread?


it's what trolls do. rolleyes


So Carlo, Theo and I are trolls now because we aren't impressed with the spec or demos of the Prophet X? Fat chance.

Anyone with a negative opinion about a synth is a troll? Every new synth that comes out isn't the second coming of the Model D. Some are turkeys like the X, like the RD64.

I'm sure the X is decent but the reality is that it is less of a synth than the P12. It is a ROMpler. A ROMpler?! Dave said people have been asking him for a ROMpler for years so he decided to give the people what they want. I'd like to see who these people really are. They are not synthesists, I'll tell you that. And as far as it's capabilities, the Kronos runs circles around the X at a much lower price and much more polyphony.

Not a troll but a bringer of truth. Not every synth can be unicorns and rainbows. [/quote]
[/quote]
Ok we get it. You're not impressed. Why do you keep coming back to share your negativity? Why not haunt a thread about a piece of gear that you DO like?


Edited by Radagast (05/06/18 09:47 AM)

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#2925465 - 05/05/18 10:03 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: MojoGuyPan]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
as far as it's capabilities, the Kronos runs circles around the X at a much lower price and much more polyphony.

You can similarly say the King Korg runs circles around the Prologue... lower price, more polyphony. And the KK can indeed be the better choice for someone. But in both cases, some people will find additional value in analog over digital, and in a fuller set of dedicated real-time controls. (There are also things the X can do that the Kronos can't, as discussed above.) Obviously, this is not a board for you, but others seem to find it interesting...
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#2925466 - 05/05/18 10:34 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: AnotherScott]
David Emm Offline
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I tend to shave the sharper edges off of my opinion of a new synth by rolling with the compression factor of all online demos. Many are more than crisp enough to inspire some consideration. I've owned 3 Prophets, so I'm biased in favor of Dave's choices. I'm idly looking at the X like something Derek Sherinian might play on angled stands, because between the synth side and whatever 8Dio contributed, prominent leads are a near-given. Besides, I invested 10 years in a workstation and was well rewarded. This isn't an impulse buy, its a marriage. love
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#2925472 - 05/05/18 10:56 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: Radagast]
Quai34 Offline
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Registered: 08/05/17
Posts: 95
Loc: Canada, MB
Originally Posted By: Radagast
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
#yawn


If you are bored why are you in this thread?


+1, exactly!! Mojo Guy has already spent so many times in trying to convince us that it's "just a romper", let us check it and make our own opinion, I think this thread is great, besides the Prophet X features, I've just realized what is the difference before loading into RAM and streaming is....Well, I knew it but I've never ever asked myself what is under the hood of my Stage 2 or Prophet, I switch, the sound is here, great....But having that kind of question to evaluate how a new product could work or being innovative is important, thanks to Anotherscoot and burning bush...

And no, Dave never said he has been asked to do a Rompler, just being asked to process samples into analog filters and modulations which is exactly what it does....And you said "there are not synthesist?" Who are you to define what a sunthesist is? A synthesist is more define by what he does with sound/synths than by what tools he uses to do it so, saying that people who use the P12 are more synthesists than those who are interested in this new synths is stupid....Yes, just let us, "poor non synthesists" appreciate what we could do with this "Non synthesizer/Pure rompler" what we could do and just go present us what you like ....No need to be on this thread for so long to reiterate again your negative opinion....


Edited by Quai34 (05/05/18 11:14 PM)
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#2925473 - 05/05/18 11:16 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: MojoGuyPan]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan

So Carlo, Theo and I are trolls now because we aren't impressed with the spec or demos of the Prophet X? Fat chance.


No, just you. Theo just isn't impressed by the demos he's heard but has left open the possibility that somebody can create something great with it. I think we all understand by now that Theo's criteria may not be in alignment with the rest of us but at least he's consistent and explains it even though it may be over many of our heads.

You on the other hand seem hell bent on completely ignoring what this actually is. Even after being proven 100% completely WRONG you ask for apologies. You aren't making any friends. Maybe just walk away from this one.
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#2925499 - 05/06/18 05:58 AM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: AnotherScott]
MojoGuyPan Offline
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Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 427
Loc: Mainland Florida
Quote:
You can similarly say the King Korg runs circles around the Prologue


I do really like the King Korg. And I fully realize the benefits of real-time controls and full analog also I know that the X can do a lot of stuff with the samples that the Kronos can't do.

But in reality who is actually going to be using this functionality musically? No one. And the synth side still has DCO's we're only talking analog filters here (admittedly the most critical part to have analog but still DCOs and ROMples).

Look, I'm underwhelmed by the X it is clearly step backwards and an insult to us DSI fans who were hoping for the X to be something groundbreaking or at least a call back to vector synthesis.

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#2925504 - 05/06/18 06:37 AM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: MojoGuyPan]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5780
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan




But in reality who is actually going to be using this functionality musically? No one.

Look, I'm underwhelmed by the X it is clearly step backwards and an insult to us DSI fans who were hoping for the X to be something groundbreaking or at least a call back to vector synthesis.


So you want more groundbreaking features that no one is going to use musically? Your logic makes no sense throughout this thread.
You continue to divert every wrong assumption you've made to some new negative. Now it's digital vs analog oscillators rolleyes .

Nothing wrong with having and expressing opinions on these features but man learn how to put a logical consistent position together. You obviously know your stuff but for some unknown reason you come across as someone trying so hard to be a poo-poo head.

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#2925511 - 05/06/18 07:04 AM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: MojoGuyPan]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
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Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
I fully realize the benefits of real-time controls and full analog also I know that the X can do a lot of stuff with the samples that the Kronos can't do.

Well there's progress!

Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
But in reality who is actually going to be using this functionality musically? No one.

All you can say is not you. It remains to be seen who else may use it for what. (I would not be surprised if people said similar things about the Mellotron, VCS3, Theremin, etc.)

Earlier in the thread, you seemed to diss their line that "“Composers will love the Prophet X for soundtracks" I think because you saw that as proof that it is largely a rompler... but composers have been using non-traditional sounds for soundtracks forever. (Even before Vangelis.) And with the likes of youtube and a zillion cable channels and streaming platforms these days, there is more soundtrack composition than ever.
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#2925543 - 05/06/18 10:07 AM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: MojoGuyPan]
Radagast Offline
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Registered: 01/20/18
Posts: 100
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
Originally Posted By: Radagast
[quote=MojoGuyPan]#yawn

If you are bored why are you in this thread?


it's what trolls do. rolleyes


So Carlo, Theo and I are trolls now because we aren't impressed with the spec or demos of the Prophet X? Fat chance.

Anyone with a negative opinion about a synth is a troll? Every new synth that comes out isn't the second coming of the Model D. Some are turkeys like the X, like the RD64.

I'm sure the X is decent but the reality is that it is less of a synth than the P12. It is a ROMpler. A ROMpler?! Dave said people have been asking him for a ROMpler for years so he decided to give the people what they want. I'd like to see who these people really are. They are not synthesists, I'll tell you that. And as far as it's capabilities, the Kronos runs circles around the X at a much lower price and much more polyphony.

Not a troll but a bringer of truth. Not every synth can be unicorns and rainbows.


OK we get it. You don't like it.


Edited by Radagast (05/06/18 10:10 AM)

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#2925562 - 05/06/18 12:34 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: MojoGuyPan]
MAJUSCULE Offline
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Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 4928
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
But in reality who is actually going to be using this functionality musically? No one.


HAHAHA GTFO NOT EVERYONE PLAYS THE SAME KIND OF MUSIC AS YOU BUD
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#2925573 - 05/06/18 01:39 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: MAJUSCULE]
Theo Verelst Offline
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It's interesting that a DSI instrument can pull samples through an analog filter, that's understood. If they sound right then is another question. If that's designed to happen, a third question!

For me, I'd have some form of genuine scientific interest if let's say the Prophet-12 filter can be used with with very low harmonic and other signal distortion, such that when a sample is played with a good DAC, maybe even a much closer to perfect one, the result with resonance off and filter open is very "Hi-Fi".

Of course, as many will want to interject, that isn't necessarily good for the music, and the tone of the instrument! You might want to let parts of your filter electronics distort quite a bit to make fun...

If there'd be a special sounding DAC, for whatever reason, and a filter with the option of being very hifi (maintaining of course the ability to actually filter, but not to distort) than that combination would be sexy, IMO. None of that is going on from what I gather.

T.

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#2925640 - 05/06/18 08:27 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: Theo Verelst]
Lady Gaia Offline
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Registered: 11/18/17
Posts: 72
Loc: Seattle
The Prophet X doesn't use the Prophet 12 filter. It uses a modern recreation of the SSM2044 that saw vintage use in everything from the E-mu Systems SP-12 / SP1200 / Emulator I, PPG Wave 2.2/2.3, and others.
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#2925644 - 05/06/18 09:11 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: Lady Gaia]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lady Gaia
The Prophet X doesn't use the Prophet 12 filter. It uses a modern recreation of the SSM2044 that saw vintage use in everything from the E-mu Systems SP-12 / SP1200 / Emulator I, PPG Wave 2.2/2.3, and others.


Great choice. My personal favorite is the SSM 2040, but the 2044 is very musical.
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#2925650 - 05/06/18 09:51 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: mate stubb]
Quai34 Offline
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Registered: 08/05/17
Posts: 95
Loc: Canada, MB
Pfuuuf, just coming from the other post on The DSI forum and realized that the 4000$ price tag is....in USD....which will be around 5200 in CAN$....Well they might advertise it at 4990 but still....Ouch...I was so excited by this new synth that my brain was not doing the conversion....
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#2925653 - 05/06/18 10:14 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: Quai34]
MAJUSCULE Offline
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Yep, and the dollar sucks right now. Prices overall went up in Canada over the last year or two.
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#2925799 - 05/07/18 07:49 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: MAJUSCULE]
Nathanael_I Offline
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Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 150
This should be very useful for anyone who wants textures and "things that aren't real, but sound like they could be". Modulation and timbre shaping over time are definite weak points of traditional analog synthesis. ADSR and LFOs are too crude to create the kind of complex timbres we get from traditional acoustic instruments.

The promise of this machine is that you can use an already musical, complex,evolving sound (samples of a real instrument) as a way to alter what is happening to another sample or an oscillator. Just using noise to randomly modulate stuff doesn't have the same effect. There is something about how the multiple overtones each have their own decay and resonance that has eluded synthesis so far.

An engine like this will be a texture monster. Spitfire Audio (and Omnisphere) have numerous products that generate very excellent and interesting textures and atmospheres.

I have no idea if it works for classic rock. I don't play that music, and there are so many synths that can do that world justice.

But for someone who plays electronic music and wants/needs new textures and craves more expressive sounds - this is a potential winner. Add MPE for more nuanced control of the mod matrix and this could be a very delightful synthesizer for the kind of gig that wouldn't have a use for a Kronos or a piano or a B3.

I get that you can do this in a computer. The computer problem is a UI problem. Yes you can map controllers, but to have an instrument where you can access it natively and at once? It is worth something.

I find it interesting. The Quantum is top of my list at present - playable granulation and modal synthesis with a GREAT user interface. The Quantum is a more powerful synth that breaks new ground (in accessible hardware) - the signs of care in the design are everywhere.

The Prophet X, however, seems to promise some of the OB-6 goodness. Probably the best thing about the OB-6 is how well thought out the control parameters are. I love the multimode filter, yes, but as others have observed, you can't hardly find a way to make the OB-6 sound bad. It sounds great, and slight adjustments offer musically useful subtlety. I bet the Prophet X makes great sounds, layers, and expressive patches easily.

And that is not a trivial thing. Part of the genius of Dave Smith is that he knows how to build an instrument for musicians to play live. When you actually play one, you are many times struck at how right the design is. What you need is right there. Every knob does something musical without trashing the sound. If the Prophet X captures that ability, it matters little if the Kronos can technically do this with pages of menu diving. The elegant simplicity and immediacy will work for some people in a better, faster way.

Will that be worth $4k? I don't know, the market will say. But I find it very attractive. If it's a hardware "Omnisphere" it will be great. I totally get it has a fraction of Omnisphere's capability. But it has hardware. How important is that? Important enough that Omnisphere just made control layers for a dozen or so hardware synths.

Humans need hardware (until someone invents a direct brain interface). I applaud all who are trying to figure out how to get electronic keyboards to have as expressive a capability as an acoustic instrument. The Hakken Continuum may be there already, but surely we need more.

The Prophet X is not a final answer - but it appears to be a step in the right direction.

The future of synthesis has to be digital - there are many ways to alter sound that simply can't be done in the analog domain. As yet, few of them produce easily playable results. If sample mangling and convolution approaches get us closer, I'm a fan of the progress.

I believe the Quantum is a special, once-every-long-time kind of instrument. The Prophet X is also special, and the 8Dio samples are bound to be quite useful in a mangled context. Spitfire have whole libraries where they mangle their orchestral samples into new and interesting contexts. If this is a live playable version of that, with optimized real-time controls and well-engineered parameters, it may well be a better instrument than the Quantum - even if it is a more capable synth.

I will watch with interest as both synths are released. I won't be a first day purchaser of either, but both are welcome and desirable, albeit for different reasons.

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#2925800 - 05/07/18 07:54 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: Nathanael_I]
timwat Offline
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Very well put, Nathanael.
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#2925805 - 05/07/18 08:42 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: timwat]
Nathanael_I Offline
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Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 150
What I would love to know that hasn't been discussed yet is how capable is the sample player?

I have several 8Dio libraries. They are deeply sampled, many round-robins, are heavily scripted, can have real legato transitions, etc. Their samples are professional media production tools that are well better than what I've heard in a Kronos. So the raw material is certainly going to be good, though it won't be used in a "Kronos way".

Those samples were made to play back in Kontakt, likely the most powerful, generally accepted sampler on the market. I can't imagine working a Kontakt-level sampler from a synth front-panel. You want a big monitor for that and a mouse. So details on how they have re-contextualized the samples would be interesting. I know their Kontakt product - what is it in this format? Mysteries yet to be uncovered. I don't expect it to be the same.

I'm really curious as to what can be done easily, on the hardware. How much work have 8Dio and DSI put into getting all the sample scripting and programming right so that "it just works magnificently".

That is the kind of stuff that can't be expressed on a data sheet. It will take some walkthroughs by experienced sound designers, composers, or synthesists to sort this out.

Marc Doty's long-form synth reviews on YouTube are much more useful than most in this . He takes the time explore each section of a synth and you get a sense for how broad/narrow/useful/not-useful each set of controls are. His excitement is fun, but the real service is the expert exploration and discussion of the musicality of the control values. Now that he is at Buchla, I doubt he'll still get to do DSI videos, but I'd love to see him explore the Prophet X (if it isn't too digital for him).

I will be tempted to take a flight to Indiana to Sweetwater where I know they'll have both available for side-by-side.

Take some compositions, and have my laptop play the notes while twisting knobs. Then play and twist knobs. Then just explore via front panel. Run through the presets - tweak them. How easy/hard is it to get musical texture I want and find playable/expressive?

This is something that the internet has not yet figured out about musical electronics. Its the stuff that ISN"T on the spec sheet that makes the biggest difference to whether or not it feels like an instrument, or if it is just a technical gadgety thing.

The Minimoog nails this. Simple synth. Limited timbres. Very limited mod matrix/realtime control. Great instrument - a classic.

It is also true that not every musical style needs or wants an instrument. There are many advanced users of synths that have never had an interest in playing them live - probably more than that intend to play them live at this point.

It is a great time to like synthesizers. We are getting a lot of new hardware after many years of soft synths.

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#2925806 - 05/07/18 08:55 PM Re: New synth: DSI Sequential X [Re: timwat]
dsetto Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/28/15
Posts: 724
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: timwat
Very well put, Nathanael.
Yes, indeed.

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