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Korg Grandstage.....Anyone tried it?


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The SV-1 feels and plays like an instrument to me while the Kronos and GrandStage feel like I'm playing a VST. :laugh:

 

Which indicates higher latency w/ Kronos/ Grandstage vs SV-1

I don't think latency would be the only possible source of difference. I'm not sure what all the variables are that could contribute to FTEC, but the samples themselves, velocity mapping, and where a key triggers in its travel could conceivably be other possibilities.

 

Does the SV-1 use the same "engine",- Intel industry mobo w/ Intel Atom and running Linux/WINe on it ?

I guess NO !

Not the same. It has a super-fast boot, its design pre-dates the Kronos, and it's from Korg Italy rather than Korg Japan, which design things pretty independently of each other.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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The SV-1 feels and plays like an instrument to me while the Kronos and GrandStage feel like I'm playing a VST. :laugh:

 

Which indicates higher latency w/ Kronos/ Grandstage vs SV-1

I don't think latency would be the only possible source of difference. I'm not sure what all the variables are that could contribute to FTEC, but the samples themselves, velocity mapping, and where a key triggers in its travel could conceivably be other possibilities.

 

Does the SV-1 use the same "engine",- Intel industry mobo w/ Intel Atom and running Linux/WINe on it ?

I guess NO !

Not the same. It has a super-fast boot, its design pre-dates the Kronos, and it's from Korg Italy rather than Korg Japan, which design things pretty independently of each other.

Since they both use the RH3 action, in my experience, I absolutely believe some form of latency constitutes the difference in FTEC between the SV-1 and Kronos/GrandStage.

 

I'm beginning to think latency is the same phenomenon for others who cannot quite put their finger on it. :laugh:

 

To Scott's point, I also believe that because the SV-1 has a "simpler" processor inside, there is zero latency which makes playing it feel more immediate.

 

Otherwise, I agree with Dave Ferris, the SV-1 is not the DP for blowing real Jazz lines. The SV-1 has a vibe that is better suited for other styles of music. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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I spent some quality time with the GrandStage a couple of months ago. I find the sound quality very similar to the Kronos (not surprisingly), with the same good and bad aspects.

 

The aspect is very classy. One of the best-looking DPs around imo.

 

The AP sounds (but I would say, the whole sound set) are very, very clean and detailed. This should be a good thing, but after a while, I found that that "clinical" quality start to sound rather dry, and you desire a warmer sound. Probably, a bit more of ambience mics in the multisamples wouldn't have hurt. While I was playing, I kept thinking that the APs would benefit from a bit of external processing (a reverb tail with some more complex algorithm, for example) to warm up the sound. BTW dynamic response is excellent both in range and in smoothness.

 

The action is the usual RH3, I would rate it good but not stellar.

The instrument is still a bit too heavy for me, even the 73. Then there is this idiotic thing that you are forced to get their huge stand - and pay for it, which is really beyond my comprehension. At least, it works like this in Europe, don't know about the USA.

 

That said, for live playing I think it's still one of the best DPs/generic purpose keyboards around. If it were lighter and less expensive, I would consider it.

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Definitely loving the sound and simplicity of this board. Cannot wait to try it out . Biggest challenge will be to adapt to 73 Keys. Definitely will fit in the car better than the MP7. Also picked up a Mojo 61. I am downsizing from a regular mojo to reduce weight as well hopefully making life simpler and lighter.
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My Grandstage saga: I played one in a store, fell in love with it as a "primarily AP/EP board with benefits," and ordered a 73-key one, planning to replace my Kurz Forte 7 with it. Got it home, used it on a gig or two, loved it. Then Dave Weiser released his new EPs for the Forte, and suddenly the decision between them was not nearly so clear. So I set them up side by side, and was torn: I liked the Grandstage APs a lot better; I found them significantly more responsive, realistic and inspiring than the Kurz ones. But between the Weiser sounds and the Purgatory Creek ones, I liked the Kurz EPs a lot better. The Grandstage EPs had what I can only describe as a kind of "mushiness" to their attack, while the Kurz ones were crisp and immediate in a way that made them much more fun to play.

 

My eventual solution: I kept the Kurz, and it is now my main EP board. I returned the Grandstage an got an 88-key one instead, and it is now my main AP board. And I'm just living on instant ramen and water for the rest of the year.

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My Grandstage saga: I played one in a store, fell in love with it as a "primarily AP/EP board with benefits," and ordered a 73-key one, planning to replace my Kurz Forte 7 with it. Got it home, used it on a gig or two, loved it. Then Dave Weiser released his new EPs for the Forte, and suddenly the decision between them was not nearly so clear. So I set them up side by side, and was torn: I liked the Grandstage APs a lot better; I found them significantly more responsive, realistic and inspiring than the Kurz ones. But between the Weiser sounds and the Purgatory Creek ones, I liked the Kurz EPs a lot better. The Grandstage EPs had what I can only describe as a kind of "mushiness" to their attack, while the Kurz ones were crisp and immediate in a way that made them much more fun to play.

 

My eventual solution: I kept the Kurz, and it is now my main EP board. I returned the Grandstage an got an 88-key one instead, and it is now my main AP board. And I'm just living on instant ramen and water for the rest of the year.

 

Kurzweil should invest more into state of the art factory presets. The Forte can sound so much better than it's presets are representing. This is also true for the Forte APs. Upgraded EPs for the Forte including DW's and Bill's Purgatory set are so much better than the factory sounds! And I like them better than any of the Grandstage or Nord EPs.

 

The same is true for many of the other Forte factory sounds. The Forte can do better in each and every category. Check out these synth patches for example: http://www.enjoythesirens.com

 

You can't create sounds like these with the Grandstage. Not every user is ready to invest additional time and money to tune up the machine to his needs. But if you take the plunge to do so the Forte is able to beat any competitor.

 

LIFE IS SHORT, GO GET THE GEAR YOU WANT ;-)

 

 

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Apples and Oranges....

 

The Forte is a Piano and a Synth and now

with the OS3.0 a workstation....

 

The Grandstage is a stagepiano with

additional sounds.

 

I like my Grandstage 73 very much and it

plays exceptional well in my live situations.

Better than my CP4 or SV1 before (never liked

the Nord Samples).

Well, tastes are different.

 

I never played a Forte but owned a PC3 and

Artis 7 in the past. Pretty nice boards too !

It's a shame that Kurzweil more or less dissapeared

in the shops here in Germany.....

 

 

Studio: Hammond XK5-XLK5,  Roland Fantom 8, Kurzweil PC3A6, Prophet 5, Moog Sub37, Neo Vent, HX3-Expander, LB Organ Grinder

Live: Yamaha CP88, Yamaha Motif Rack ES, Hammond SKX Pro, Hammond XB2-HX3,  Kurzweil PC3-61, Leslie 251, Roland SA1000, Neo Vent2

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The Grandstage EPs had what I can only describe as a kind of "mushiness" to their attack,

 

That rings true to me. Funny thing is the EPs in my Vox Continental are slightly better than the EPs on the GS. I haven't played the Forte, but I could describe the difference the same way: the GS is just a little more mushy whereas the Vox is more crisp, detailed, and defined, and therefore more fun and engaging.

 

What I haven't done yet is A-B the EPs on the Vox and on my new Mojo 61. I have the feeling when I do I'll like the Mojo better, but it's going to be a close comparison.

 

Keeping in mind that we're talking here about the best of the best. The EPs on the GS are great, but they may not be the best you can buy in a keyboard at the moment.

 

 

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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I like them better than any of the Grandstage or Nord EPs.

I haven't played the GS, but as much as like the Kronos (which I think has the same EPs), I generally prefer the SV1.

 

The same is true for many of the other Forte factory sounds. The Forte can do much better in each and every category. Check out these synth patches for example: http://www.enjoythesirens.com

 

You can't do sounds like these with the Grandstage.

If you're looking for more than a fancy stage piano, Korg's answer to the Forte is not the Grandstage, it's the Kronos. Arguably the Kurzweil competitor to the Grandstage is the SP6, in terms of the kind of player they are marketing to.

 

Funny thing is the EPs in my Vox Continental are slightly better than the EPs on the GS. I haven't played the Forte, but I could describe the difference the same way: the GS is just a little more mushy whereas the Vox is more crisp, detailed, and defined, and therefore more fun and engaging.

This may harken back to the FTEC conversation. I *think* the VC and GS EP sounds should be the same, apart from the tube in the GS. Have you ever tried playing the VC EPs from the GS keys and vice versa? I think that would be an interesting experiment, to try to see if the difference is in the sound itself or rather in the way the keys relate to the sound (at least if you choose a GS sound without the tube engaged). There would still be the 1 ms variable introduced by MIDI, but the results of the test could be interesting.

 

What I haven't done yet is A-B the EPs on the Vox and on my new Mojo 61. I have the feeling when I do I'll like the Mojo better, but it's going to be a close comparison.

I'd be curious to hear your eval of that as well... and again, if your feelings about the Mojo EPs remain consistent relative to the others, depending on which of the actions (its own, VC, or GS) you play it from.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Have you ever tried playing the VC EPs from the GS keys and vice versa?

 

I agree that would be worth doing but I have small children. I struggle just finding time to practice.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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I was told a few things regarding the GS/Vox under NDA. I wasn't told whether they're general-purpose CPU or ASIC based, so I can speculate. I suspect they are the later. The boot time of the GS is ~40 seconds which puts it in the same ballpark as ASIC synths. My Forte requires the same ~40 seconds to boot while my Integra-7 takes 25 seconds. This is a far cry from the 2+ minutes on the Kronos. Also, consider the GS is loading six large pianos plus other sounds--FAR larger libraries than other ASIC synths.

 

I would guess one reason a manufacturer would choose Linux and a general-purpose CPU is that they could exploit the built-in functionality: APIs for GUI, file management, and I/O as well as USB and SATA for expansion options. How much Korg did this with the Kronos I can't say, but it seems plausible. The GS/Vox have no large touchscreen GUI and include only rudimentary file management. They have the look, feel and functionality of an ASIC keyboard.

 

In the end, I don't think this matters much. ASIC does not guarantee low latency or consistent latency. The new Roland TR-8S has an issue when you move sliders while playing a pattern, the timing is completely out of whack. They will undoubtedly fix this, but does that not give you pause to think the timing might still not be ROCK SOLID? I've used hardware sequencers with obvious timing issues. There was that keyboard, might have been a Roland, which would develop laughable lag when doing a pedal-down glissando. Is that something that that's only triggered when played at the extremes or does latency become less consistent when polyphony increases? Even today it's not uncommon to find laggy interfaces with ASIC synths. 15-20 years ago, Keyboard Magazine did latency testing of a variety of synths and modules and the results were all over the place.

 

Also, latency is not always a hardware issue. It can be found in the sample. It's not uncommon to find some space between the start of the sample and the actual attack of the sound. The Piano in Blue library had this to an extreme and they modified this based on user complaints. But others do this to add "air" or provide space for attack sample elements. Not all samples are slammed up against the start point. This translates to perceived latency by the player.

 

Busch.

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Are the pianos in the Grandstage same as Kronos?

They sound very similar to my ears. YMMV. :cool:

 

And because no one on this board can ever agree on anything... ;) I briefly owned a Kronos when it was the hot new thing. The pianos in it left me absolutely cold, and were one of the reasons I sold it. In contrast, I think the Grandstage pianos are gorgeous. Whether they've tweaked them in later Kronos models, or whether it's simply a change in my own perception over those several years, or some combination of the two, I couldn't say.

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I agree with FKS. The APs on the the Kronos and the SV-1 have a hard brittle quality. That doesn't necessarily sound bad in a mix or through the right amplification, but was definitely a put off for me playing through headphones which is how I do most of my practicing. The GS APs are warmer. With the GS, those issues are gone.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
Yes, the mono recorded piano samples are actually pretty good as well. No compromise like with many other DP, but very well balanced acoustic piano sounds. Quite useful when only mono amplification is available. The GS is actually my new swiss army keyboard. The piano sounds are actually very good, but there is also a large selection of very good quality basses sound for your left hand whenever you play without a bass player. In most situations I don"t need any more to carry on a second keyboard for synthe Leads or string/pads as the GS provide every sound I really need for Live situations. I feel the GS as an overall improvement in term of sounds , ease of use and flexibility over my previous keyboards : like Nord stages...., Roland RD..., and Physis piano.
Steinway M!70 - Hammond B3 - Nordstqge - Physis piano H1 - Moog Prodigy - Piano Rodes MK2
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I agree about the mono samples being very good and useable. I think it's decent as a swiss army knife. The main drawback of relying on it for everything will be the lack of deep editing for synth sounds. On the other hand, you have a lot of well-chosen synth presets too choose from so unless you're craving a real synth experience, you can probably get by with the GS.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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Are the pianos in the Grandstage same as Kronos?

They sound very similar to my ears. YMMV. :cool:

 

And because no one on this board can ever agree on anything... ;) I briefly owned a Kronos when it was the hot new thing. The pianos in it left me absolutely cold, and were one of the reasons I sold it. In contrast, I think the Grandstage pianos are gorgeous. Whether they've tweaked them in later Kronos models, or whether it's simply a change in my own perception over those several years, or some combination of the two, I couldn't say.

There are five sampled grands in the GS, compared to two in the first version of the Kronos, and the newer SGX2 piano engine also supports string resonance and more velocity layers. The newer piano engine is a free upgrade to original Kronos owners, two of the later piano sound sets are available as a paid upgrade, and the fifth GS piano is, I believe, not available on the Kronos. (Though other piano sounds are, via third party libraries.)

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I tried the Grandstage and SV-1 side by side at my local music store today. I am just a hack so this isn't any kind of pro opinion, but as much as I wanted to like and even buy the GS, the SV-1 was just a lot more fun to play - specially the Rhodes. The SV1 Rhodes just sparkles and barks, there is something about them that just isn't in the GS. I suppose the GS acoustic pianos and organs are better but it all felt kind of lifeless.

 

I am told SV-1 is made by Korg Italy and GS by Korg Japan. Maybe its that Italian flair but to me, the sounds and feel were different and the SV-1 was much more alive and one could play crazy notes and it all sounded good. Didnt get that feel on the GS at all.

 

So, I really want Korg to do an SV-2 from their Italian design folks and I am going to pass on the GS, keep my CP4 (I love the acoustic pianos and the feel) until something better comes out. Funny how individual all this really is. I have the luxury of only playing for fun so no need to worry about some things that others have to.

 

My two cents (or lira)

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The Grandstage is a dynamite board. The APs are excellent. EPs are very very good. I feel that it is hands down better than the Kawai MP7 and SE.

 

Here's the thing, I like the SV-1 better even though the EPs are a little better on the Grandstage and APs a lot better. The SV-1 just has a certain je nais se quoi that the Grandstage lacks. It might be the immediacy of the controls, the sexiness of the design. It just does it for me. The 73 I am just enamored with.

 

The Grandstage though is a great sounding board. My only gripe with both is the RH3 action which feels a bit cheap at first. Once you get acclimated to it, it is expressive and fun to play. The Kawais feel better in a side by side but once you get used to the RH3 it will feel good.

 

Grandstage is a nice improvement over the SV-1 but somehow the SV-1 feels more like a legitimate instrument to me and is the one to have stolen my heart. The Grandstage feels like a Kurzweil but with better sounds.

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Having previously owned an SV1 73, I really wanted the Grandstage 73. But the price was just a tad too high for my comfort. If it had been about $400 less, I would have snapped up the 73 key. So I went with the Kurzweil SP6. Happy so far with it. The SV1 was the best for EP's I have ever played, it was a fun and inspiring board. But in reality the AP did have issues like unexplained note dropping which seemed totally random. And it could have definitely used more sounds. All of which contributed to me selling it, and the fact a friend really needed a good board at the time and couldn't afford new. I think that both the Grandstage and the new Vox Continental are sweet boards.

Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12

Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell

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I went with the Kurzweil SP6. Happy so far with it. The SV1 was the best for EP's I have ever played.

How would you compare the SP6 vs. SV1 EP sounds/playability?

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Well not as good, but better than most Romplers I have owned. The SV1 just had a certain sparkle yet warmth. I can't describe it. Maybe its the tube? And the EP's were matched well to the RH3 keyboard, they didn't bark too easily or too hard for me. For me that was where the play-ability was. It just felt right. The SP6 reminds me of my SP4-7 I had but maybe a bit better/clearer? Either way I like it way better than the MOX-8 which up until now has been my main gigging piano. The FA-08 is my backup and I use it for recording. IMHO the SP6 is far superior to both of them for EP. The MOX8 is probably sold. I have someone coming tomorrow to buy it.

Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12

Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell

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