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#2921335 - 04/13/18 07:47 PM Rack mount synths--Roland...other?
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
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As those who have read my Behringer D thread know, I've been having a lot of fun playing mix and match with keyboards and sound engines of one sort or another. At present I have:

Yamaha XS rack
Moog Voyager RME
and, of course, the infamous Behringer D

I'm real happy with the sounds I have on hand; don't really feel that I'm lacking anything substantive...and that's a pretty good space to be in.

However, I wouldn't say no to some of the other hardware out there if I managed to run across something cheap enough. I've been watching the synths on eBay with an eye towards picking up something that would bolster my main rig or replace my humble little Yamaha PSR-200 that I keep upstairs for noodling quick ideas.

So...

I noticed that there are scads of Roland rack mount sound engines and I started trying to make sense of it all and fell down a rabbit hole. According to Roland's list of their synths they've produced something on the order of two dozen non-keyboard synths over the years. Jeez.

So, my question is...what is the go-to Roland rack mount?

I'm not looking to reproduce the sounds of the '80s or '90s or whatever. Something reasonably modern, reliable, and with a decent user interface. This is just homework, so that I can rank Roland's product line, figure out something that might be fun, then go into lurker mode, waiting to see if one comes up cheap. I'm not in a hurry--don't have to be, because I'm pretty content with everything but the PSR-200, and even it has the saving grace of being a one-button-and-you're-playing kind of keyboard. As rinky-tink as it sounds, that's a good trait to have when I'm trying to get down an idea.

I'm also open to suggestions for other rack mount units. I believe that Dave Smith has some, for instance, but not being particularly drawn to their house sound, a DSI rack unit would have to be dirt cheap before I'd shell out for one.

No, I don't think I want to go modular. I toyed with the idea for a while while I was in the beginning stages of formulating my "deep oscillator" ideas, but I've realized two things. One: To get all the pieces-parts would be really expensive and bulky, and Two: I need to play rather than mess with hardware all day. Yes, twiddling knobs is fun, but it's not productive. I've got so little time to play music that I begrudge every minute that I spend trying to get a sound. So, sadly, modular is out.

Grey
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#2921337 - 04/13/18 08:12 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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If you're looking for a real synth synth (as opposed to more of a rompler) rack piece, I think the only Roland of interest in the last 25 years is the V-synth XT, which is a very cool box, The most complete Roland library is in the Integra 7, I'd say nothing else is remotely modern, to the extent that that matters. Neither of those are likely to be found especially cheaply, though.
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#2921341 - 04/13/18 08:44 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
Quai34 Offline
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Go to the Nord Forum, there is just a post with the same question and a lot has been discussed about Roland rack synth, JV versus XV etc....
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#2921346 - 04/13/18 09:34 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Quai34]
J. Dan Offline
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Find ways to rack mount tabletop synths. Fabrication is your friend. Talk to Davenport (Escaperocks) and Moe (matestubb). David I almost autocorrected your name to ExcapeRocks, which is how it is generally pronounced around here. That would actually probably earn you so, cool points.
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#2921364 - 04/14/18 04:33 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: J. Dan]
Losendoskeys Offline
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I've used the Fantom XR exclusively for over 10 years.
It is great for sampling and ROMpling, totally recommended.
I added the Ultimate Keys which covers all the vintage stuff I want. Great synth sounds and effects.
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#2921406 - 04/14/18 08:39 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Losendoskeys]
harmonizer Offline
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The name of the "Ultimate Keys" card (a.k.a. SRX-07) can make some think it contains an upgraded acoustic piano sound (it doesn't). But what it does contain is lots of very useful sounds. I have an XV-5050 with the SRX-07 card, and I probably use more sounds from the SRX-07 card than I do from the base sounds in the XV.

The SRX-07 card can be added in any of the Roland XV or Fantom devices. I believe the latest Roland module (Integra) comes with the SRX-07 sounds at no extra cost (either built-in or free download, not sure which).

On the downside, Roland does not produce drivers to let the XV connect even to Windows 7. There is a workaround I use with Windows 7, which I have heard also works with Windows 8. The other downside is that the organ sounds in the XV are particularly weak, so much so that I bought a Nord Electro to supplement my XV.

The XV and Fantom are both old products. The Roland Integra 7 would be a much more capable product, but with all the same assets as its older predecessors.

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#2921423 - 04/14/18 10:57 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
hardware Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
If you're looking for a real synth synth (as opposed to more of a rompler) rack piece, I think the only Roland of interest in the last 25 years is the V-synth XT, which is a very cool box, The most complete Roland library is in the Integra 7, I'd say nothing else is remotely modern, to the extent that that matters. Neither of those are likely to be found especially cheaply, though.


Used they hold their value too.
Great sounding synth rack.
I知 on a short list for a 1U Solaris.
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#2921426 - 04/14/18 11:23 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: hardware]
ProfD Offline
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Another vote for the Fantom XR here. Full range of sounds and features in a 1U box different from the Motif XS rack. cool
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#2921436 - 04/14/18 12:55 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: hardware]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: hardware
I知 on a short list for a 1U Solaris.

for real?
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#2921442 - 04/14/18 02:24 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: davedoerfler]
Bill H. Offline
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The problem with Roland modules (and I've been through a lot of them from the D-110 on up) is that the hardware doesn't age well as they get older. Balky buttons and dim displays are commonplace.

At this point, the only Roland module I'd be interested in is the Integra-7, but they're not cheap which perhaps defeats your purpose. Anything else... check out in person to make sure it's functional.

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#2921443 - 04/14/18 02:55 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: hardware]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: hardware

I知 on a short list for a 1U Solaris.


thu

I contacted Holger D. @S|C after John B. advised me to do.
Heエll keep me informed.
Depending on the remote editor software offered, Iエll buy one too.

A.C.

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#2921447 - 04/14/18 03:09 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Bill H.]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill H.

... Roland modules ... Balky buttons and dim displays are commonplace.


Who cares ?
At that time Roland as also Yamaha used OMRON tact switches which are robust, cheap and easily available at Mouser and/or Digikey.
Throw エem in and the unit works like new.
The only Roland rack unit I had to replace tact switches was the D550.
When I sold the 1984 MKS80rev4 in 2012,- all the haptics worked even I toured w/ it,- and I was a heavy smoker for decades too.
Same ruled for the MKS70 I sold later.
My D-110 is like new condition and the U220, even looking somewhat beaten up, works like it should.
For most displays a piece of backlight foil is the solution.

A.C.

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#2921449 - 04/14/18 03:56 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Al Coda]
Moonglow Offline
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If you consider expanding your search beyond Roland, I知 a fan of the Korg TR-Rack which was based on the Trinity series. I like it even better than the Triton-Rack. I bet one could be had for around 250-300 bucks.
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#2921451 - 04/14/18 04:42 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Moonglow]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: Moonglow
If you consider expanding your search beyond Roland, I知 a fan of the Korg TR-Rack which was based on the Trinity series. I like it even better than the Triton-Rack. I bet one could be had for around 250-300 bucks.


OTOH, the best of the Trinity series isnエt available for the TR-rack ...
The "solo" board and/or the (6-voice) Z-1 soundengine board expansions.
AFAIK, these became famous later under the name M.O.S.S. and were also the core of the famous "Prophecy" synth.

So, when I bought some KORG synth "from the past" today, that would be a Z-1 or Triton Extreme w/ MOSS-board built in and even itエs not a rackmount unit.

A.C.

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#2921455 - 04/14/18 05:00 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Moonglow]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Moonglow
If you consider expanding your search beyond Roland, I知 a fan of the Korg TR-Rack

Nice piece, but still basically a 1998 rompler. Some of the Roland suggestions here have been comparable. Nothing wrong with them, they are still very useful, but we're getting pretty far from the OP request of "reasonably modern."
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#2921460 - 04/14/18 06:30 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Al Coda]
Moonglow Offline
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Originally Posted By: Al Coda
OTOH, the best of the Trinity series isnエt available for the TR-rack ...
The "solo" board and/or the (6-voice) Z-1 soundengine board expansions...

Yeah that 鉄olo board was pretty cool, and not available for the TR-Rack. The TR-Rack did have two additional banks of Combi programs, but the Trinity-Plus (which featured the Solo section) did not.
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#2921462 - 04/14/18 06:35 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Moonglow]
burningbusch Offline
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Another nice one from the past is the Kurzweil PC2R w/orchestral expansion. I picked up one when they were closing them out cheap, sold it, but would have like to have it back. They are harder to find than the Roland pieces though.

Busch.

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#2921463 - 04/14/18 06:37 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
Moonglow Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Moonglow
If you consider expanding your search beyond Roland, I知 a fan of the Korg TR-Rack

Nice piece, but still basically a 1998 rompler. Some of the Roland suggestions here have been comparable. Nothing wrong with them, they are still very useful, but we're getting pretty far from the OP request of "reasonably modern."

Certainly. The challenge here is trying to balance reasonably modern, decent user interface, reliable, and cheap.
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#2921467 - 04/14/18 07:24 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Moonglow]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
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Guys, I'd like to thank everyone for their input so far, but I went and started this thread last night, then had to travel out of town today. I'm back, but I'm bushed--don't have the energy to give this thread the attention it deserves at the moment. I'll try to get back with you guys after I've had some shut-eye.

In the meantime, keep the ideas coming.

Quick notes:
AnotherScott,
I'm actually open to either pure synths or romplers. Of the two, I'd probably say that I lean towards romplers, but it's not that big a bias...maybe 60/40 for something that has a button that gets me to a sound quickly. That, of course, presumes that the sounds are happy-making, but that's a subjective thing.

Quai34,
I'll try to take a look at that thread.

J. Dan,
For the time being, I've got my D on top of a rack, but I've got my eye out for a Euro rack/19" rack unit (cheap) so I can rack the booger. Once I get that going, then I'll have some leftover space in that unit and can add more. Non-19" and non-Euro stuff? That can get annoying. I've got a full woodworking shop, but am not set up to do much with metal. Drill presses are the same for metal or wood, but metal on a table saw is a messy, noisy, dangerous proposition. Ditto surface planers, jointer planers, etc. That said, I'm open to specific suggestions for units to listen to via my friendly local YouTube.

Losendoskeys,
Yeah, the Fantom XR was kinda on my radar as a possibility. With the caveat that I know little about the Rolands (not having done my homework on them the way I did with Yamaha and Korg [and don't claim to be an expert on those, either]), I have picked up the possibly unfounded notion that the Fantom was the last "good" Roland board. Can someone confirm or deny this [foolish?] idea?

harmonizer,
You bring up a troubling issue: Add-in cards. I don't know what units take cards, what cards are good/bad, etc. It's a whole 'nother realm of research that I'm not sure how to approach. I'm open to further discussion.

Moonglow,
I've got a Kronos X. Is it duplication to get a Korg rack unit, or do they have different voices?

And with that, I'm officially kaput. Back later.

Grey
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#2921475 - 04/14/18 08:05 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: GRollins]
Bill H. Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
Losendoskeys,Yeah, the Fantom XR was kinda on my radar as a possibility. X


If you go this route (and as others have suggested) look for one with SRX-07 onboard. That makes all the difference in the world, and was a common pairing.

A Fantom XR is not a bad way to go at their current going price if it works. I just did a quick search. They're getting really cheap.

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#2921478 - 04/14/18 08:40 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Bill H.]
Synthaholic Offline
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Not fairly modern, but I always want to throw the Alesis QSR into the mix. Sounds great, less filling.
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#2921524 - 04/15/18 08:51 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Synthaholic]
GRollins Offline
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Took a moment to cruise Reverb and eBay. Looks like the Roland V-Synth and Integra-7 rack units go for $900 and up. Not a budget item. Looked at the XR. Maybe $3-400, plus another $2-250 for the SRX-07 card...at which point you're not too far below the price of the V-Synth or Integra-7. No XRs available either site (unless you want one bundled with a MOTU). A few V-Synths and Integra-7s.

Haven't taken time to look at the other things people have suggested, nor have I tracked down the thread someone suggested above.

At some point I suppose I'll need to try YouTube to find demos of the units to see what sounds they're packing, but that'll have to wait until at least this evening. It would be nice if Roland (and other companies as well) would post a simple run-through of the sounds in a given unit. Not glamorous, but effective. The demos available are often pretty random; almost never complete.

Grey
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#2921543 - 04/15/18 09:55 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Synthaholic]
Moonglow Offline
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Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Not fairly modern, but I always want to throw the Alesis QSR into the mix. Sounds great, less filling.

+1

Really dig a lot of the programs in this thing, especially those crafted by our very own, dB. While it does not satisfy all of your criteria, the QS-R might be a relatively economical way to add a new category of quality sounds to your palette.
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#2921617 - 04/15/18 07:59 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Moonglow]
newkeys Offline
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If you end up looking at the older Roland rompler modules (1080, 2080, jd990, etc) to save money, be aware that any optional expansion boards added to them are subject to capacitor leakage and possible fire.

This is re the sr-jv80 series of boards, *not* the srx.

Some of the sr-jv80 boards are still beloved, such as Vintage Synth and Keyboards of 60s/70s.

Some people have replaced the problem capacitor; Roland痴 recommendation is 電on稚 use any of those boards any more. My Vintage Synth board is okay but this apparently isn稚 an 妬f problem, it痴 努hen.

Lots of info here:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electron...nsion-card.html


Edited by newkeys (04/15/18 08:00 PM)
Edit Reason: details

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#2921632 - 04/16/18 12:23 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Bill H.]
Losendoskeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill H.
The problem with Roland modules (and I've been through a lot of them from the D-110 on up) is that the hardware doesn't age well as they get older. Balky buttons and dim displays are commonplace.

At this point, the only Roland module I'd be interested in is the Integra-7, but they're not cheap which perhaps defeats your purpose. Anything else... check out in person to make sure it's functional.


I've got two and both are absolutely like new - maybe people are too heavy with their fingers on the buttons wink

Can't speak for if the Fantom was the last best board from Roland as I have been happy with mine every since!
And I keep buying XP30's.......... like


Edited by Losendoskeys (04/16/18 12:23 AM)
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#2921633 - 04/16/18 12:34 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Losendoskeys]
J. Dan Offline
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Honestly, speaking specifically 80s/90s, I used a Roland sound canvas - first an SC55 then an SC88. Basically a GS (Roland's expansion of GM) module but with extensive midi imolementation, I used one all the way into the early 2000's and nailed most of the sounds that didn't require a specific sample or something like hard sync or PWM, which I used my Jupiter 6 for (not samples). Very versatile if you're willing to deep dive into midi programming,l. Horrible for any on the fly adjustment. I'll look for old mp3s to post.
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#2921642 - 04/16/18 06:18 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: J. Dan]
GRollins Offline
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Oi! Methinks the gods are pissed at me for starting this thread.
First the out of town thing, then, just when I'm on the verge of getting back under control, we have a frog-strangler storm w/mucho wind and lose both power and internet for most of yesterday. For some reason the internet is not fully back--I can get to some sites, but not others. Go figure.

Today's going to be busy so I'm not likely to get back until this evening, but I will drop in one maintenance-related note. A lot of companies will put a cap in a circuit that's not got a sufficiently high voltage rating. For instance, if you run a 10V part at 10V, then there's no leeway if the part experiences a voltage surge; running a part at 100% of its rating isn't a good idea, anyway. It's better to use a higher rated (e.g. 16V) part, but then the part costs more and is physically larger.

Cable modems frequently do this. Ever notice how often they have to be replaced? Ofttimes it's the caps being run too close to spec. They give you one for free, knowing that it will die in a year or two, then charge you for the replacement. Sneaky tactic.

Could someone with experience with the Integra-7, V-Synth, and XR give me a quick contrast and compare of the three? My planned YouTube extravaganza last night fell through because of the aforementioned weather crisis. I was literally putting buckets under the eaves to catch rain water for sponge baths (we're on a well, no power = no water). Pretty fucked up evening.

Yes, I'm more-or-less concentrating on Roland, but still open to other brands and models. Honestly, there's a decent chance that I'll end up getting a Roland something-or-other and another doo-dad later on. Since I can use the Edirol to switch from one to the next, might as well fill some slots, you know...only three filled--five open for business. I'd probably even take a DSI if it was cheap enough.

Grey
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#2921670 - 04/16/18 08:28 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
Could someone with experience with the Integra-7, V-Synth, and XR give me a quick contrast and compare of the three?


* Fantom XR = 2004 rompler. 128 mb of wave data (which I think *might* consist of the 64 mb of the XV-5080 plus a newer 64 mb, maybe someone can confirm?). The last of their straight rack romplers. Holds a bunch of SRX cards, though that can get pricey. Probably the best rack source of the Roland sound library short of the Integra. Can also work with custom samples (though they can take forever to load). IIRC, it has 3 insert effects that can be used simultaneously on a patch, which would differentiate it from the XV-5080 (and Integra) which can only use a single insert effect on a single sound (though you can still layer multiple sounds that each have their own effects).

* V-Synth XT = 2006 synth. The last of their straight rack synths, and arguably the most interesting non-analog synth Roland ever made. "Elastic Audio Synthesis." Also includes VA synth modeling, D50 emulation, vocal modeling, processing of live and sampled audio input, COSM effects... definitely not a "me too" product, a one-of-a-kind. But not the source for the classic library of Roland rompler sounds.

* Integra 7 = rompler + SuperNatural VA synth + Roland's most complete library of modeled (or semi-modeled) SuperNatural acoustic sounds + clonewheel (merely adequate). The rompler includes the 64 mb wav set of the XV-5080, plus all the ones from the 12 main SRX cards (up to 4 sets can be loaded at once), plus new 256 (?) mb library of new high quality PCM sounds (can' be used simultaneously with the SRX sounds). Also a surround sound audio processor to use with a DAW. The most extensive library of Roland sounds in a rack. That said, it's not complete. There are numerous Fantom and other sounds that did not make it into this collection (and it does not include anything like the V-Synth synthesis, D50 emulation, vocal processing, etc.). And getting back to effects, the 5080 and XR have 3 insert fx total, the Integra has 16 (so you can split, layer, or multi-timbally drive up to 16 sounds, each with its own effects).

I think that's right, and those are the high points that come to mind.
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#2921698 - 04/16/18 09:59 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Thanks,
Let me see if I'm getting this straight:

So there's no overlap between the Integra-7 and V-Synth? If you want whatever they've got, you need to buy both? (and a bigger rack...)

How much overlap is there between the XR and the Integra-7...a little, most, all?

Grey
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#2921723 - 04/16/18 11:48 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
So there's no overlap between the Integra-7 and V-Synth? If you want whatever they've got, you need to buy both? (and a bigger rack...)

They both have a VA synth, so I wouldn't say no overlap. (I can't tell you how similar or different the two VA synths are, though.) But the VA synth is only a small part of the V-Synth, and it's also only a small part of the Integra.

Even buying the two won't get you whatever they've got, Roland's got a lot of stuff! But of their rack units, Integra gets you their best acoustic instrument emulations, V-Synth gets you their best "true synthesizer." They may both be from Roland, but they are about as different from each other as your Yamaha and your Moog. If you want the "classic Roland" rompler sounds, get the Integra. If you want their most interesting synth and want to make your own sounds, get the V-Synth.

Originally Posted By: GRollins
How much overlap is there between the XR and the Integra-7...a little, most, all?

As I said, I think both include the XV-5080 sound set... that would make up about half the XR, and a small fraction of what's in the Integra. So very broadly speaking, I guess you could say an Integra has about half of what's in an XR, and an XR has a much smaller amount of what's in an Integra. The part they share is, on one hand, a lot of what are really classic Roland sounds, but on the other hand, are also the parts that are going on 20 years old.
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#2921729 - 04/16/18 12:06 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Thanks for the comparison.

Time to YouTube, then. Kinda sniff around the three as best I can. As usual, there's absolutely zero chance of getting a chance to lay hands on the real thing here in the hinterlands.

Grey
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#2921766 - 04/16/18 02:52 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Moonglow]
Synthaholic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Moonglow
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Not fairly modern, but I always want to throw the Alesis QSR into the mix. Sounds great, less filling.

+1

Really dig a lot of the programs in this thing, especially those crafted by our very own, dB. While it does not satisfy all of your criteria, the QS-R might be a relatively economical way to add a new category of quality sounds to your palette.


They sound great live.
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#2921770 - 04/16/18 03:03 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Synthaholic]
Synthaholic Offline
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I think an Integra痴 Greatest Hits in a light 1U rack for $699 would be wonderful. Keep the 8 outputs and I値l pay an extra $100.
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#2921772 - 04/16/18 03:32 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Synthaholic]
GRollins Offline
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The name "Integra" sounds like a friggin' automobile...

If everybody will leave me in peace for a few minutes, I'll try to sneak in a few YouTube demo/reviews.

Grey
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#2921778 - 04/16/18 03:57 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: GRollins]
zeronyne Offline
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If you are set on considering Roland, and you really want to stay with the idea of mixing sound engines, I'd avoid their relatively modern racks. As was pointed out here several times, the JV/XV/Fantom/Integra family are just Romplers. Don't get me wrong, I've owned at least one of those at any given time. But they are sample playback with filters and some routing and modulation. Apart from the V-Synth, which I owned for years and recently sold, I don't think you'd feel that sense of exploration with these pieces.

But what if you went back a little further in Roland's line? MKS? D550? Alpha Juno? Personally, I thought they were overhyped and now oddly revered, but they do have singular characteristics that make them compelling as synth engines. Just a thought.


Edited by zeronyne (04/16/18 03:57 PM)
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#2921786 - 04/16/18 04:23 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: zeronyne]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: zeronyne
As was pointed out here several times, the JV/XV/Fantom/Integra family are just Romplers.

The Integra is more than that with its large bank of modeled SuperNatural sounds, that aren't purely sample based... to many people, I think that is its most compelling aspect. (It also does have a VA synth, though nothing too unusual or spectacular there.) But yeah, the whole idea behind all of these pieces is largely that you want the Roland acoustc instrument sounds. If you really want to synthesis, you look elsewhere in their line.

Originally Posted By: zeronyne
But what if you went back a little further in Roland's line? MKS? D550?

I really liked the MKS70. Never had an MKS80. But sure, real analog in a rack has a whole different appeal of its own. D550 is basically a D50, which is basically included in the V-Synth XT or available as a tiny D-05.
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#2921792 - 04/16/18 05:21 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Interim report:
They're saying that the Integra has 6k voices(?!) and I swear I've listened to a third of them in bits and pieces. So far--and of course, I'm at the mercy of the folks running the demos--I haven't heard anything that I can't live without. Some are nice, but not really grabbing me by the short & curlies, as the expression goes.

(I heard the sound of pitchforks being sharpened over in Rolandtown. I may not live to see the sun rise...)

I'm going to take a break and try some V-Synth demos.

(Caveat: We're still having high winds and could lose power due to falling trees. [I've got one hanging at a perilous 45 degree angle in my front yard.] That might put a damper on the party.)

Grey


Edited by GRollins (04/16/18 05:22 PM)
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#2921814 - 04/16/18 07:57 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
Interim report:
They're saying that the Integra has 6k voices(?!)


256 SuperNatural Acoustic tones, those are it's newest/best acoustic instrument emulations, and probably the ones most worth checking out for what it does best.

Over 1100 SuperNatural synth tones. Virtual analog stuff. If you're into VA, I generally feel you're better off making your own. But I guess some people would rather scroll through 1000 synth sounds looking for what they want...?

Then I think there are about 900 "PCM synth" rompler sounds that I believe are the original XV-5080 patches. Old or classic, depending on your point of view.

Then there's the GM2 sound set, the drum kits, all the loadable SRX expansion card sounds, the loadable HQ PCM set... it adds up.

The point is, I wouldn't audition them randomly, I'd attempt to find example within the above categories that interest you.
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#2921821 - 04/16/18 09:42 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
dsetto Offline
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For the low cost, "other" category ... perhaps EMU? Like Proteus 2000? Its 6 outputs and dual midi ports can be a good bang-for-the-1U-space.

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#2921836 - 04/17/18 01:08 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: dsetto]
Quai34 Offline
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I have the proteus 2000 with the World expansion, Composer, Ensonik x7 and Protozoa (Pop 1,2 and 3) expansion....I use it a lot, in the studio or live....
Ok, I could also use the XV5080 and maybe it jad nostalgia when I bought them but when Roland released the Imtegra at the same time I was shopping for seem thing like you, I was hesitating but went the older rompler route due to really cheaper cost....
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#2921841 - 04/17/18 01:50 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
The point is, I wouldn't audition them randomly, I'd attempt to find example within the above categories that interest you.


Aye, but that's the problem with the audition-via-YouTube strategy...I have to way to control what's out there. For instance, I found a video for the V-Synth that runs through all 128 voices of bank 1--tedious, but perfect for my needs. The problem is that there's no corresponding video for any other bank (I haven't looked at an owner's manual yet, but I'm assuming that if there's a 1, then there's probably a 2, 3...) and I haven't found anything like that for the Integra.

Grey
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#2921852 - 04/17/18 04:38 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Synthaholic]
DanL Offline
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Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Originally Posted By: Moonglow
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Not fairly modern, but I always want to throw the Alesis QSR into the mix. Sounds great, less filling.

+1

Really dig a lot of the programs in this thing, especially those crafted by our very own, dB. While it does not satisfy all of your criteria, the QS-R might be a relatively economical way to add a new category of quality sounds to your palette.


They sound great live.


I had this module, it did sound good but the sounds got buried in a loud band.
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#2921853 - 04/17/18 05:35 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: DanL]
MorayM Offline
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I've had a lot of Roland racks, and my (misplaced?) love for them is well documented!

For the record the Integra *does* have the XV5080 soundset but the XR does *not*. The Integra has *some* PCM sounds from the XR but many have been replaced with superior SuperNatural versions.

On the expansion card front *most* of the PCM data from the SR-JV80 series cards made it into the SRX series even if the patches didn't. Notable exceptions are SR-JV80-06 Dance (due to a copyright lawsuit) and I think SR-JV80-15 FX was dropped too but I could be wrong.

If you want to get into really, really anal detail about the Roland racks, then Don Solaris' blog post goes into all the detail you never thought you needed about architecture, DACs, samples rates and more. While you're there, get his sound pack for the JV-1080, it's full of beautiful synth sounds and also works in the 20, 30 and 5080.
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#2921861 - 04/17/18 06:30 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: MorayM]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
Aye, but that's the problem with the audition-via-YouTube strategy...I have to way to control what's out there. For instance, I found a video for the V-Synth that runs through all 128 voices of bank 1--tedious, but perfect for my needs. The problem is that there's no corresponding video for any other bank (I haven't looked at an owner's manual yet, but I'm assuming that if there's a 1, then there's probably a 2, 3...) and I haven't found anything like that for the Integra.

Ah. Yeah, limited selection there.

For Integra SN Acoustic Tones, a bunch of them are in this playlist, you can just click video-after-video on the right when you've heard enough of one sound and want to go on to the next, but it's still not nearly complete.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jQYOHZrxQQ&index=1&list=PLA46AF67AACFA5F59

For the other non-synth tones, as we've been discussing, most are from older Rolands, so there are lots of other ways to search for sound demos to get an idea (although there can be some differences, i.e. effects can be different on different hardware). But for example, for all the SRX sounds, you don't need to search for Integra, just search for Roland SRX demos, there's plenty of that. Here's Roland's own:

http://www.rolandus.com/flash/demos/rd700gx/SRX.html

Likewise, to hear the XV-5080 soundset, look for XV-5080 demos rather than Integra demos. Actually, a good source is probably the 19 videos from this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqj-KiOMuUI - he runs through all the FA patches, the FA also including the XV5080 sound set. I'm pretty sure that every sound in the FA is in the Integra (though the Integra has way more sounds that are not in the FA).

As for the SuperNatural Synth section, I don't think a demo tells you so much. I mean, for acoustic tones, you hear strings or trumpet or whatever, you have a reference, you know what you're looking for in string or trumpet sounds. Synth sounds are more arbitrary, and more about coming up with what you want than about how good or bad you find their presets, IMO. But Roland does have a play list of SN Synth sounds (which I think are mostly crappy, from the handful I heard) at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaIgGrqS5c&list=PL045ECF50B239056C&index=1&pbjreload=10 but I guess it a least serves to give you a sense of some of its character.

Similarly, on the V-Synth, I think it's more about getting a sense of its character and then looking at the manual and reviews to get a sense of what it does, rather than needing to listen to every bank of presets, personally. If you're looking to be a preset jockey, a V-Synth is probably not the board you're looking for.

Originally Posted By: MorayM
For the record the Integra *does* have the XV5080 soundset but the XR does *not*.

So the 128 mb XR wave set is not a superset of the 64 mb XV5080 wave set, good to know. Is it entirely different? i.e. from a separate sound development team who didn't use any of the XV5080 sound set at all? Or are there still some 5080 sounds in an XR?

Originally Posted By: MorayM
The Integra has *some* PCM sounds from the XR but many have been replaced with superior SuperNatural versions.

Are you sure? My understanding is that the Integra PCM sounds fall strictly into three categories:
* XV-5080 sound set
* SRX cards
* the HQ PCM/GM2 4-slot expansion

Unless you'e saying that the HQ PCM expansion includes some sounds sourced from the XR sound set?
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#2921869 - 04/17/18 07:09 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Things were easier when there were only 64 voices in a box...

Six thousand?

Yikes!

I'll freely admit that my eyes cross when people say that the Multi-Mega-Magnitude unit has some, but not all of the ZFM-123 voices, all of the ABF-2 voices, but only three of the very desirable Ultra-Booger sounds. I mean, I get the idea of Venn diagrams and all that, but if I'm not familiar with the contents of the sets (and I'm not, being a late-comer to keys), then it's wee bit difficult to wrap my head around which is what.

*sigh*

Incidentally, I've got an Integra demo rolling in another tab and the Roland minion just said there are "over six thousand sounds." Oh. Great. 6k was bad enough. Now it's "over" 6k, so add another week to my audition time.

Good thing I'm not in a hurry on this.

Grey
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#2921871 - 04/17/18 07:10 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
allan_evett Offline
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I arrived a little late to this party, but can definitely confirm the love for Roland sound modules being expressed. I have a Jupiter 50 and XV-5080; they mostly stay at home now, but do sound great live. I've thought about condensing the two into an Integra; my keyboard room feels a little overloaded with keyboards blush

The Integra would be a great choice for what you're trying to do; the Fantom XR a solid second. I just noticed that RedKey, here on the forum, has a Fantom XR posted in the Garage Sale section. Guessing you'd find plenty to use in that one. The range of tones in the XR is extensive, and they sound excellent; the Integra is insane.
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#2921907 - 04/17/18 09:43 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: allan_evett]
Bill H. Offline
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Huge love for Roland hardware here also - having owned (or still own):

Jupiter 6, D-110, JV-80, XP-50, XP-60, XP-80, Fantom S, Fantom X, V-Synth.

But here's the thing: I've never had much love for Roland presets, and because of that learned how to program all these units from the ground up. If you are going to decide based on the presets alone, I guess you'll just have to go though them somehow. And at this point, I'm not sure learning how to program a discontinued Roland module would best use of time anyway. But be warned - they are going to sound dated.

As for me, I'd like to wrap my "Rolands" all up in a bow with an Integra-7, or perhaps an FA-08 for praise music. Most of what I look for in a Roland is present in either of these - and then some.


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#2921912 - 04/17/18 10:10 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Bill H.]
GRollins Offline
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I've been listening to the Integra and V-Synth in bits and snatches, in-between (or while) doing other things. At this moment, I'm leaning more towards the V-Synth, but they clearly both have sounds that are useful. In an ideal world, I suppose the answer would be to get both, but I can't justify that amount of money. For that matter, I'm still trying to rationalize the cost of one.

I haven't even started on the XR.

Nor have I started on the non-Roland suggestions that people have been kind enough to toss in. If it's a rack thingy and can be MIDI-ed to this Fatar controller I'm building, I'm game to give it a listen...seems a pity to have all these unused inputs on the Edirol.

Grey
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#2921930 - 04/17/18 12:01 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: GRollins]
allan_evett Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins


I haven't even started on the XR.

Nor have I started on the non-Roland suggestions that people have been kind enough to toss in. If it's a rack thingy and can be MIDI-ed to this Fatar controller I'm building, I'm game to give it a listen...seems a pity to have all these unused inputs on the Edirol.

Grey


I have three hardware modules remaining in my workspace: XV-5080, Alesis QSR, and Yamaha TX-1P. The QSR is rather underrated; it's basically a rack version of Alesis' very popular QS 7.1. So here's yet another item to add to your listening list:

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#2921999 - 04/17/18 07:09 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: DanL]
Synthaholic Offline
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Originally Posted By: DanL
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Originally Posted By: Moonglow

+1

Really dig a lot of the programs in this thing, especially those crafted by our very own, dB. While it does not satisfy all of your criteria, the QS-R might be a relatively economical way to add a new category of quality sounds to your palette.


They sound great live.


I had this module, it did sound good but the sounds got buried in a loud band.


Turn up! rockit grin


Edited by Synthaholic (04/17/18 07:20 PM)
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#2922010 - 04/17/18 09:00 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Synthaholic]
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Regarding the V-Synth, it has a somewhat convoluted history. I bought the original V-Synth keyboard and still own it. Unique sounds and unique ways to trigger, mangle WAVs. It also has the VA component.

After a few years, Roland released OS ver. 2.0. This included some very nice enhancements to the synth engine but also came with a new set of waveforms. Note: the V-Synth is also fairly unique in that all of the WAVs load from storage each time you boot (you can see them being loaded). Many V-Synth owners, myself included, much preferred the original WAVs and we voiced our disappointment. To their great credit, Roland provided a version of OS 2.0 with the original WAVs. I believe the V-Synth XT was also released around this time and I'm pretty sure that you could not load the original V-Synth OS 1.0 WAVs in it, only the new ones. The V-Synth GT came out later and I believe it had still a different set of WAVs. The newer version 2.0 and GT programs tended to be more rhythmic loops, arps, etc. whereas the original programs where more player focused, as I recall.

So as you watch Youtube demos, understand there are several possible configurations:

1) Original V-Synth with OS 1.0 features and WAVS/programs.
2) Original V-Synth with OS 2.0 features and 1.0 WAV/programs.
3) Original V-Synth/XT with OS 2.0 and new WAVS/programs.
4) V-Synth GT with its new feature set and I believe new WAVs/programs.

I don't know much about the GT, only that it has more features including AP synthesis.

I'm pretty sure if I could have loaded the original WAVs into the XT I would have bought one as a rack better fits my space. The V-Synth, along with my Yamaha VL-1 are the only two digital synths I expect to keep for a long time (they're 15+ years old already). They are unique and there are no software equivalent instruments.

I thought Roland missed out on an opportunity with the V-Synth in not providing more WAVs that could be added. Obviously, the WAVs didn't live in ROM, so allowing users to change out their WAVs should have been fairly easy. It never happened and WAV management was cumbersome. For example, in order to use the original WAVs with OS 2.0, you had to install them with the OS. If you wanted to try out the new WAVs, your only option was to reinstall OS 2.0 with the new WAVs.

FYI, it's been a long time since I thought about all this, so it might not be 100%.

Busch.

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#2922023 - 04/18/18 12:55 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: Bill H.]
Losendoskeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill H.
Huge love for Roland hardware here also - having owned (or still own):

Jupiter 6, D-110, JV-80, XP-50, XP-60, XP-80, Fantom S, Fantom X, V-Synth.

But here's the thing: I've never had much love for Roland presets, and because of that learned how to program all these units from the ground up. If you are going to decide based on the presets alone, I guess you'll just have to go though them somehow. And at this point, I'm not sure learning how to program a discontinued Roland module would best use of time anyway. But be warned - they are going to sound dated.

As for me, I'd like to wrap my "Rolands" all up in a bow with an Integra-7, or perhaps an FA-08 for praise music. Most of what I look for in a Roland is present in either of these - and then some.


I chose the XR because of the sampling feature AND because of presets.
With the Ultimate Keys fitted I have all the sounds for my early era Genesis band without doing much at all.
With my Kronos 2 61 I am struggling to get close because the internal effects in the Krionos aren't actually as good as the XR/XP30 for this music. SO DON'T FORGET TO AUDITION EFFECTS!
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#2922025 - 04/18/18 02:30 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: burningbusch]
GRollins Offline
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
To their great credit, Roland provided a version of OS 2.0 with the original WAVs.

The newer version 2.0 and GT programs tended to be more rhythmic loops, arps, etc. whereas the original programs where more player focused, as I recall.

So as you watch Youtube demos, understand there are several possible configurations:

1) Original V-Synth with OS 1.0 features and WAVS/programs.
2) Original V-Synth with OS 2.0 features and 1.0 WAV/programs.
3) Original V-Synth/XT with OS 2.0 and new WAVS/programs.
4) V-Synth GT with its new feature set and I believe new WAVs/programs.

I'm pretty sure if I could have loaded the original WAVs into the XT I would have bought one as a rack better fits my space.

Busch.


There's a lot to unpack here. I have to say that nearly every aspect of this odyssey seems to have some sort of caveat or "gotcha," e.g. if you get the XR, you need the right card(s) to make it worthwhile.

--I seem to recall seeing something about Ver. 2.02 (I may have the version wrong) in some of the demos. Is that the "good" version of the software? Is there somewhere I can look to get more details on the software versions--specifically including whether they're any good, not just Roland's inevitable touting of "newer and better."

--Loops and arpeggios are of little interest to me, so from what you're saying, it's likely that I'll side with you and want more player-oriented voices.

--I'm not sure I'm clear on this: Are you saying that the XT rack unit cannot be loaded with the version of the software that has the older voice set?

--This will complicate evaluation via YouTube because not all posters include details like software versions. (And it means I'll have to go back through a hundred videos to see if they've got the version posted. Aaaargh! Not your fault.)

--Like you, I've reached a point where I'm running out of space. Whether my inner Rick Wakeman likes it or not, rack stuff is my best option if I want new voices. The exception being the possibility of replacing the little Yamaha PSR-200 with a better keyboard. As far as the big rig goes, however, it's getting pretty tight.

Grey
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#2922033 - 04/18/18 04:38 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
nearly every aspect of this odyssey seems to have some sort of caveat or "gotcha," e.g. if you get the XR, you need the right card(s) to make it worthwhile.

Remember also that all the cards for the XR are already built in to the Integra (they are the SRX expansions).

Originally Posted By: GRollins
This will complicate evaluation via YouTube because not all posters include details like software versions. (And it means I'll have to go back through a hundred videos to see if they've got the version posted. Aaaargh! Not your fault.)

For all intents and purposes, all you need to do is to confirm that, in auditioning sounds for the V-Synth XT, you didn't accidentally include any videos of any of the non-rack (i.e. non-XT) versions of the V-Synth.
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#2922047 - 04/18/18 06:23 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
MorayM Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: MorayM
For the record the Integra *does* have the XV5080 soundset but the XR does *not*.

So the 128 mb XR wave set is not a superset of the 64 mb XV5080 wave set, good to know. Is it entirely different? i.e. from a separate sound development team who didn't use any of the XV5080 sound set at all? Or are there still some 5080 sounds in an XR?


I upgraded from a 5080 to a Fantom X8 and as part of that I ported loads of my old sounds over. There's no patch file compatibility between the two despite the nearly-identical architecture due to the differences in wave sets. I can't categorically say that none of the the 5080's waves made it into the X, but if they did I didn't find them!

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: MorayM
The Integra has *some* PCM sounds from the XR but many have been replaced with superior SuperNatural versions.

Are you sure? My understanding is that the Integra PCM sounds fall strictly into three categories:
* XV-5080 sound set
* SRX cards
* the HQ PCM/GM2 4-slot expansion

Unless you'e saying that the HQ PCM expansion includes some sounds sourced from the XR sound set?


I've just taken a look at the Integra patch list to satisfy my curiosity, it looks like the HQ PCM does have some patch names that I recognise from the Fantom X. Weirdly I recognise some names in that list (particularly the D-50-esque ones) from the SR-JV80-04 but I'd have to look at them on the unit to work out what's really going on!
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#2922057 - 04/18/18 07:04 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: MorayM]
ApprenticeGary Offline
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I bought an xv3080 for cheap recently. It sounds better than what I remember the 5080 sounded like. I used a 5080 intensively 10 years ago and then sold it. I don稚 remember it sounded this good(like 3080). It maybe that the way I play are changing over the years.. My fantom x does have better and newer samples, while it sounds more compressed and 澱usy than the 3080(Sorry for my lame English). The 3080 is quieter and more pleasant to my ears.
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#2922064 - 04/18/18 07:18 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: MorayM]
GRollins Offline
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Interestingly, some patch names can be found on both my MM8 and my Motif XS rack, but...they sound different. Possible reasons abound:
--actual differences in the patches
--differences in the hardware (different DAC?)
--I've discovered that anything the MM8 plays via MIDI sounds different from other keyboards--my hypothesis is that it's due to the velocity curve, but I don't know of a way to prove that
--in the dark of the night when I staring at the ceiling, not sleeping, I've come up with other possibilities, but they strike me as less likely than the above

I haven't really done exhaustive research on the situation because in the end it doesn't really matter--I can't change anything in the MM8 (e.g. velocity), so it's just The Way Things Are. The Fatar keyboard project's got velocity options, but none of them sound the same, either. It has the option to build your own velocity maps, but that's going to be such a tedious mess that I hesitate to even begin.

No, I haven't tried to drive the XS with the Korg. It would be an interesting experiment, but it's counter to my plans, as my intention is to run the Kronos independently, and do the mix/match thing on other pieces-parts.

Grey
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#2922097 - 04/18/18 08:33 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
Losendoskeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: GRollins
nearly every aspect of this odyssey seems to have some sort of caveat or "gotcha," e.g. if you get the XR, you need the right card(s) to make it worthwhile.

Remember also that all the cards for the XR are already built in to the Integra (they are the SRX expansions).

Originally Posted By: GRollins
This will complicate evaluation via YouTube because not all posters include details like software versions. (And it means I'll have to go back through a hundred videos to see if they've got the version posted. Aaaargh! Not your fault.)

For all intents and purposes, all you need to do is to confirm that, in auditioning sounds for the V-Synth XT, you didn't accidentally include any videos of any of the non-rack (i.e. non-XT) versions of the V-Synth.


..........but the Integra doesn't sample and it is 2U instead of 1U if rack space is at a premium
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#2922103 - 04/18/18 09:00 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: MorayM
I can't categorically say that none of the the 5080's waves made it into the X, but if they did I didn't find them!

Interesting. So getting back to GRollin's point about needing to buy multiple rack units to get the most complete Roland sonic representation in a rack, not only would you need both an Integra7 and V-Synth (which essentially have zero overlap, one being a rompler and the other being a synth), but you even would need the XR as well, as the Fantom sound library is close to non-existent in the Integra-7 as well, despite it also serving rompler functions. If you don't need it to fit in a rack, there are other keyboard-less possibilities... I think the Sonic Cell sound set is almost (although not completely) identical to the Fantom XR (you lose the sampling, some of the expansion slots and front panel controls). Then you could also look at Boutique modules, if you wanted representation of things like a D50 (though that's also in the V-Synth XT) or a Jupiter 8.
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#2922109 - 04/18/18 09:32 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

For all intents and purposes, all you need to do is to confirm that, in auditioning sounds for the V-Synth XT, you didn't accidentally include any videos of any of the non-rack (i.e. non-XT) versions of the V-Synth.


Agreed. Honestly, I look for the V-Synth ONLY if you're attracted to its uniqueness. As a VA, it's so-so IMO. Bread and butter sounds are not its forte.

Busch.

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#2922121 - 04/18/18 10:19 AM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: burningbusch]
Legatoboy Offline
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Well I have 2 Roland XV-3080 I would like to sell with a whole bunch of sound cards if anyone is interested ...both in very good condition! I left my 80's project about 2 months ago. .

I will probably be posting them on the Garage Sale if I canb finally get around to it but if interested PM me . . .

I may hold on to my Blofeld tabletop unit....it's just so unusual in a good way.


Edited by Legatoboy (04/18/18 10:23 AM)
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#2922219 - 04/18/18 05:24 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
...not only would you need both an Integra7 and V-Synth (which essentially have zero overlap, one being a rompler and the other being a synth), but you even would need the XR as well, as the Fantom sound library is close to non-existent in the Integra-7 as well, despite it also serving rompler functions.

If you don't need it to fit in a rack, there are other keyboard-less possibilities...


I'm afraid that I'll need to go the rack route, unless I build an outbuilding for my music stuff. I'm cramped and getting cramped-er by the minute.

So...it'll take an XR, a V-Synth, and an Integra (which I still say sounds like a car model) to do the Roland thing. I've listened to one quick demo of the XR, but only one (so far)--all other listening time has been for the Integra and V-Synth. To date, I'm still leaning towards the V-Synth, but it'll take some doing for me to justify the price. There's no question that the Integra can do some crazy things (5.1 surround? WTF?), and it's got a screaming blue million voices, but the V-Synth just seems to fit my current mood better. Next month I might come up with a different answer.

Or maybe something improbable happens and I win the lottery, at which point maybe I actually could go nab one of each.

And I still haven't started on the non-Roland suggestions--need 48 hour days.

Grey
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#2922265 - 04/18/18 09:32 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
If you don't need it to fit in a rack, there are other keyboard-less possibilities...


I'm afraid that I'll need to go the rack route, unless I build an outbuilding for my music stuff. I'm cramped and getting cramped-er by the minute.

The Sonic Cell is much smaller than a rack unit, if you have a free surface to sit it on.
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#2922277 - 04/18/18 11:27 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
...if you have a free surface to sit it on.


No gots.

The only way to get more things shoehorned into the available space is to go vertical, meaning rack. That way, I commit the footprint of a single rack, but can stack multiple things vertically. Or, in other words, small ain't necessarily small if it takes up the wrong kind of space.

And that's if I can figure out a plan that allows me to get another rack in...right now the rack holding the Edirol & pals is on boxes, which are in turn stacked on a table, which is in the angle of an L comprised of the Hammond and the rack holding the MM8 and Kronos (the Little Phatty is currently on the Hammond's bench--not optimal). This means that I've got to reach through the tubes of the keyboard stand to get to the knobs on the equipment. Awkward, but doable (definitely a 1st world problem and I acknowledge it...I'm immeasurably grateful to have the toys I have). The rack is 8U, of which 7U are filled. If I can locate a cheap 19" Eurorack, then I'd like to mount the D in the rack, too, as it's currently on top and I can't see the knobs--but that means I'll need a bigger rack.

Of course, I'll need a bigger rack anyway if I buy Roland (or other) gizmos to add to my collection.

Grey

EDIT: Something else I need to look for is more tubes and clamp thingies for my Ultimate Support stand. I'm hoping to have the woodwork for my Fatar keyboard done soon and it will need a home, too.


Edited by GRollins (04/18/18 11:33 PM)
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#2924551 - 05/01/18 12:45 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: MorayM]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: MorayM
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: MorayM
For the record the Integra *does* have the XV5080 soundset but the XR does *not*.

So the 128 mb XR wave set is not a superset of the 64 mb XV5080 wave set, good to know. Is it entirely different? i.e. from a separate sound development team who didn't use any of the XV5080 sound set at all? Or are there still some 5080 sounds in an XR?

I upgraded from a 5080 to a Fantom X8 and as part of that I ported loads of my old sounds over. There's no patch file compatibility between the two despite the nearly-identical architecture due to the differences in wave sets. I can't categorically say that none of the the 5080's waves made it into the X, but if they did I didn't find them!

I may have found another interestng twist here. The FA has the XV-5080 sound set, the Juno DS does not, and I've read that the DS is derived from the Fantom instead (at least the 64 mb that it shares with its predecessor, the Juno DI... which would still be only half of what's in the 128 mb Fantom XR).

Here's where it gets more interesting. If you have a Juno DS, you can go to the Axial site and download all the XV-5080 programs, though you can load only one bank of them at a time (out of 8 banks total), which seemed odd to me because the XV-5080 only had 64 mb of data to begin with. Why couldn't they fit the complete XV-5080 sound set into one or two expansions instead of 8? (I believe expansions can hold 32 mb of data compressed, 64 mb uncompressed?) Maybe there's a limit to how many Programs a single expansion can support, regardless of how much or how little wave data is included, so they had to break it up that way...?

But it gets weirder... When you download the SRX-based expansions to your computer, you can tell that the files are about 32 mb. But the XV-5080 expansions are only about 150k! Not even close to 1 megabyte! That implies that all the wave data for the XV-5080 sounds (or suffciently similar ones) are already in the DS, even though the XV-5080 patches themselves are not. Unless someone has some other explanation?

And if that's true, and if the DS is indeed derived from the Fantom, that means that the Fantom would also include those waves, even if not the acual 5080 programs.
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#2924580 - 05/01/18 01:50 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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This is the kind of thing that makes me think that I've fallen down a rabbit hole.

Grey
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#2924589 - 05/01/18 02:19 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: AnotherScott]
zephonic Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

And if that's true, and if the DS is indeed derived from the Fantom, that means that the Fantom would also include those waves, even if not the acual 5080 programs.



Yes, the Fantom X includes all the waveforms but not all patches from the XV5080. Roland offers a download that recreates many of the JV2080/XV5080 patches for the Fantom X. I still have those. It's not 100% the same because the Fantom's MFX section is different, but close enough and recognizable for many of the signature patches.


http://eg.roland.com/support/by_product/fantom-x7/updates_drivers/1735
http://eg.roland.com/support/by_product/fantom-x7/updates_drivers/1736


Edited by zephonic (05/01/18 02:24 PM)
Edit Reason: links added
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#2924606 - 05/01/18 03:38 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: zephonic]
GRollins Offline
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So...am I understanding this correctly?

The voices are in there, you just need to unlock them? A hack, so to speak?

I once had a Texas Instruments calculator. In the fullness of time, the adhesive on the aluminum faceplate over the buttons gave up. With the faceplate loose, I took a look underneath. B'gosh and b'gorrah, all the buttons of the next higher model were there, just hidden by blank places on my faceplate. From then on I had a fancier calculator than the one I paid for.

Grey
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#2924624 - 05/01/18 06:08 PM Re: Rack mount synths--Roland...other? [Re: zephonic]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
Yes, the Fantom X includes all the waveforms but not all patches from the XV5080. Roland offers a download that recreates many of the JV2080/XV5080 patches for the Fantom X. I still have those. It's not 100% the same because the Fantom's MFX section is different, but close enough and recognizable for many of the signature patches.


http://eg.roland.com/support/by_product/fantom-x7/updates_drivers/1735
http://eg.roland.com/support/by_product/fantom-x7/updates_drivers/1736

Thanks for those links, very interesting! It's not exactly what you say, though. I downloaded them and looked at the readme, and it says, "Since the Waveform's contents are different between the Fantom-X and the XV Series, previous XV Patches will not sound completely the same on the Fantom-X Series." So it's not (just) the MFX that creates discrepancies. They're saying that the Fantom does not actually include the XV-5080 wave set. So it seems that what they have done is pick similar waveforms to create close approximations.

Since the Juno DS is apparently Fantom-based (unlike the XV-5080-based FA), then the Axial XV-5080 downloads for the Juno DS may be these exact same Fantom programs that you linked to... i.e. close recreations of the XV-5080 programs using Fantom waves. Though why these programs require an expansion slot (if they don't require any new wave data) is not entirely clear. It could be merely that there's only space for 256 User programs, and the expansion slot approach allows you to load them in without using up your User space. If that's the case, I wonder if one could load in an XV-5080 expansion library, copy your favorite programs to your User locations, then load in a different expansion library and still have those XV-5080 sounds work. (Normally expansion slot based programs don't work once that expansion is not the one that is loaded, since the waves for those programs would no longer be available.)
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