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#2919096 - 04/04/18 03:41 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Delta]
whitefang Offline
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Wow, DELTA;

Forgot about that one. But remember it now. A buddy of mine had it too. Thinking about it, I'd say that if I were to put together a Cream "Best Of" compilation album, the tracks I'd pick would be the same. cool
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#2919560 - 04/06/18 03:42 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: whitefang]
whitefang Offline
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And so, after all this discussion about it, I did recently put my CD copy of the LP on and CRANKED IT UP for the "live" disc. cool

Bothered my wife a bit, but she did like "Traintime", "Toad" and "Crossroads". but wasn't much into "Spoonful". And, as a "captive audience" I think she took it all very well. But DID say, "Wait until I'm at dialysis before you do THAT kind of shit again!" wink
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (04/06/18 03:43 AM)
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#2919632 - 04/06/18 09:23 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: whitefang]
desertbluesman Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
And so, after all this discussion about it, I did recently put my CD copy of the LP on and CRANKED IT UP for the "live" disc. cool

Bothered my wife a bit, but she did like "Traintime", "Toad" and "Crossroads". but wasn't much into "Spoonful". And, as a "captive audience" I think she took it all very well. But DID say, "Wait until I'm at dialysis before you do THAT kind of shit again!" wink
Whitefang


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#2919649 - 04/06/18 10:05 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: desertbluesman]
Larryz Offline
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I wait till the wifey is gone before cranking it up a bit LOL! cool
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#2919822 - 04/07/18 04:56 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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In some cases, it depends on what it IS.

For instance, my wife wouldn't complain about how high I crank up either the MANILOW or KENNY LOGGINS, but the Dylan or Hendrix would incite complaint. wink

But then, it'll be five or six BLUE MOONS before I EVER put any Manilow on the box! grin
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (04/07/18 04:58 AM)
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#2919879 - 04/07/18 09:37 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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My wife will have to wait until I'm gone before even putting on Manilow (Schhhch! I don't think I have any of his CD's for her to put on!). I will give him credit for being a good song writer though. Kenny Loggins is best when paired with Jim Messina and I can crank them up...Dylan, I like to play his CD's at a normal volume level and the wife doesn't mind his stuff. Cream has to be cranked! cool
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#2919978 - 04/08/18 03:50 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Well, my wife, who was a teenager in the early Rock'n'Roll days, (10 years my senior, remember...) at least has a more open mind musically than my ex had, and whose favorite band at the time we split was MEN AT WORK, and who never DID really like YES, ELP or ELO or also Zeppelin, and too HATED when I'd put on and crank up MAHAVISHNU. wink So I really can't complain. And since she doesn't really complain when I play and turn up MY favorite tunes, I feel it's only fair that I don't complain in those rare times SHE puts on something SHE likes and turns it up. smile
Whitefang
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#2920008 - 04/08/18 07:57 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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I haven't heard my wife put on anything except some background music on one of the dish channels for a very long time (i.e. decades). Last thing I remember her putting on was a Billy Joel CD... cool
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#2920157 - 04/09/18 04:54 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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idea
Come to think of it, my wife hasn't put on anything for a long time. Lately( and for several years) if she wanted to hear anything, she'd ask ME to put it on for her. And, the LAST thing she asked for was our recording of BEETHOVEN'S 9th symphony by Leonard Bernstein and the Vienna Philharmonic. cool Followed by "Four Dances from RODEO" by Aaron Copeland and recorded by the DSO with Antal Dorati conducting. wink
Whitefang
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#2920213 - 04/09/18 07:56 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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CCR, Steppenwolf and Cream have to be played at higher volumes so like I said, I have to wait till she goes shopping to put them on! crazy
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#2921035 - 04/12/18 10:26 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Delta]
d Offline
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Been away from this forum for a bit so bear w/ me while I back things up a bit.

Clapton himself has made it clear that his work w/Cream was less than stellar in his opinion.
The live "Crossroads" on WOF he himself cited as a case where the band was so loud & lacking interplay that he got lost & played an entire solo section w/ the beat turned around, which he only discovered auditing the recording later.

I point out that, while that band didn't lack value, most ppl who cite them as EC's best work do so b/c they were young fans & that's where their listening concepts were shaped.
There may be some who actually think that's Clapton's best work but that seriously undercuts their critical listening reps.
His playing iin the 21st C is far more nuanced & expressive than his earlier work, good as some of that was.

Of course that's gonna get me stick from those who think "all opinions are equally valid" but, that, too, is an indicator of lack of discernment.
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#2921055 - 04/12/18 11:25 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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I think of Eric's best work was while he was with Cream. It's true that it was a fan based opinion from growing up while my listening concepts were being shaped. But, I don't believe it undercuts my critical listening rep LOL! So that my "stick" (not that I believe all opinions are valid)...There's lot's of musical crap out there that people like, that I for one can't stand! poke

Here are a couple of Albert Hall interviews that show how nervous Eric was about re-creating Cream for the fans. Much of the music Cream put out 37 years before the concert was improvised on stage and in the studio. The performances had the beginning and endings down, with certain cues on where to take the music but it was mostly improvised. It would be difficult to go back and re-create all of that material. Eric loved the boys and still does and in 2005 was open to doing it again in America...here's the two interviews by those that were there:





Eric's interviews can change as years go by, but I know he thought a lot of what was important to the music he and Ginger and Jack created (much of it on the fly). Since I love improvisation and agree with Ginger that Eric was a jazz player and just didn't know it, what he did with Cream was a beginning for me as to what I like...valid opinion or not. +1 his later playing is just as good or better, but I preferred the trio. cool


Edited by Larryz (04/12/18 11:32 AM)
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#2921082 - 04/12/18 01:09 PM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Larryz]
desertbluesman Offline
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The reason I liked Wheels Of Fire and especially Crossroads is because of the improvisational abilities of those three outstanding musicians. Back in those days nothing was set, it was just a general outline laid out by the three for each tune, and with the differing attitudes of all three men it made for some very interesting changes.

I have played in improv bands and I have played in rehearsed bands, for me the improv bands had that fire of discovery as the tunes unfolded right on the spot and you had to be quick enough on the uptake to flow with the changes that came unexpectedly. Magic is what I called it back then. Conversely once a tune is rehearsed up to the "T", it became boring to me, and the band became boring to me. When everything was staged to exactness the magic became mundane.
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#2921167 - 04/13/18 04:21 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
Eric's interviews can change as years go by, but I know he thought a lot of what was important to the music he and Ginger and Jack created (much of it on the fly). Since I love improvisation and agree with Ginger that Eric was a jazz player and just didn't know it, what he did with Cream was a beginning for me as to what I like...valid opinion or not. +1 his later playing is just as good or better, but I preferred the trio. cool

It's only an invalid opinion to those who feel ANY opinion dissimilar to THEIRS is "invalid". wink

And I'd add that as I see it, Eric Clapton's "best" work wasn't necessarily the work he did while with Cream, but maybe the work of his you LIKE best. wink I've seen this sort of thing in other forums concerning different things. Like in one forum, someone claiming; "_______ was so-and-so's best movie!" and the like. Others may think it was the person's worst movie, but the original poster LIKED that particular movie the "best", so in their eyes, it became their "best" movie.

And who really knows.....somebody out there might think that the work Eric did with The YARDBIRDS was his "best" work! wink
Whitefang
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#2921199 - 04/13/18 07:29 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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"I think of Eric's best work was while he was with Cream." If you read this 1st line of my post Fang, I think you'll see that it's what I think...Anyone is free to have a different opinion.

I played an open mic last night and had a pro bass player and a drum box player backing me up. They backed up all acts that took the stage and they were great! It was like a country fried Cream trio LOL! My point is that it's easy to sing lyrics and play chords and the bass and drums can fill in without ever having played with you before. Eric was nervous about going into Albert Hall in 2005 as he had to recreate the improvisational work he did 37 years earlier. I think he too, found a new appreciation for the guitar leads he had done with Cream, as he was about to be tested by his fans...but that's just my opinion.
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#2921285 - 04/13/18 01:22 PM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Clapton may in fact be more nuanced, & certainly polished, in his 50s & 60s, but I will lobby for his less polished, but definitely wilder & more primal, playing exhibited during his 20s. The rough edges are filled with humanity. For the same reasons that I've always favored the first Zeppelin album, with all its slightly off ensemble playing, betraying young & talented players who hadn't yet learned to intuitively read each others' timing, I still favor many of the young Clapton's records. Sometimes a young player struggling to find his/her voice can excite in ways that the older, wiser artist who is in complete control doesn't fully excite. Fortunately, we don't have to decide which 'Eric Clapton' we prefer, or think is the better artist. They are all available to us to enjoy. Sometimes I want to hear the polish, sometimes I want to hear the abandon.
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#2921326 - 04/13/18 07:18 PM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Scott Fraser]
Delta Offline
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Very well said Scott. I feel the same way about so many other artists also. I could make a list but I won't. There's something to be said about young, raw natural talent. Another thing to consider is the progression of technology to what we're at now vs. back in the day so to speak. I often hear people say that some of the new guitarists are so good, but they have so many technological tools to work with now and not a lot of originality. I've always been an Eric Clapton fan and I think he lost a little bit of his soul over the years and became more of a singer/guitar player where the guitar work was secondary. The 2005 Cream concert was an epithany in that he still was able to pull off some of those old soulful chops.
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#2921334 - 04/13/18 07:40 PM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Delta]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: Delta
The 2005 Cream concert was an epithany in that he still was able to pull off some of those old soulful chops.


Sometimes lightning does strike twice.
Though I wish he had been playing his Fool SG for that gig, or the 335.
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#2921365 - 04/14/18 04:35 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
"I think of Eric's best work was while he was with Cream." If you read this 1st line of my post Fang, I think you'll see that it's what I think...Anyone is free to have a different opinion.


shocked
WHOA DERE, Calhoun!!

I'm WITH ya on all that! cool

Remember.....it wasn't ME who gave any dispersion's about anyone else's opinions. I was simply stating that YOU may think it's Erics "best" work because it's the work of his you LIKE the best, and not necessarily his "best" work, but that's OK too, since the only VALID opposing opinion on that would be ERIC'S. wink I would only go so far( and play it safe) by saying ANY of his post YARDBIRD work is his best. smirk
Whitefang
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#2921397 - 04/14/18 07:34 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: whitefang]
Fred_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
Originally Posted By: Larryz
"I think of Eric's best work was while he was with Cream." If you read this 1st line of my post Fang, I think you'll see that it's what I think...Anyone is free to have a different opinion.


shocked
Remember.....it wasn't ME who gave any dispersion's about anyone else's opinions. Whitefang


Ummm... I think you meant "aspersions" rather than "dispersions".
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#2921408 - 04/14/18 08:43 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
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Thanks Brother Fred, that (Ummm... I think you meant "aspersions" rather than "dispersions"). that post reminds me of this line:


"Yes, allusions. Not illusions. Allusions..." the character of Dale Harding insisted during a tense therapy session in the iconic movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (1975).

Milos Forman, the director of one of my favorite movies just passed away at the age of 86. It was iconic and ironic that this line just came to my mind this morning while reading your post...

@ Fang, I'm not getting carried away, just pointing out that we agree on everyone knowing what they like best for any particular entertainer or musician. I think Scott said it best, in that there is still more to like when it comes to Clapton: ("Fortunately, we don't have to decide which 'Eric Clapton' we prefer, or think is the better artist. They are all available to us to enjoy. Sometimes I want to hear the polish, sometimes I want to hear the abandon.")... cool



Edited by Larryz (04/14/18 08:54 AM)
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#2921416 - 04/14/18 10:09 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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People can of course like what they like but to cut past the blather, while I was a fan of Cream myself & still find value in much of their catalog, I long past outgrew the idea that they were a coherent improvising live band.
More often they simply played at the same time w/little true interplay of the sort you can hear between, for example Hendrix & Mitch Mitchell.
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#2921430 - 04/14/18 11:50 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Fred_C]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Ummm... I think you meant "aspersions" rather than "dispersions".


wink
Right you are, Fred. And I humbly and gratefully thank you for the correction. It can only serve to help prevent further dispersions of any future mistaken aspersions. freak

@Larry: Although I love both the novel AND the movie "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest", as a music lover, I more preferred Milos Foreman's achievement of AMADEUS. wink And I'll throw in a special RIP for such a talented craftsman.
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#2921773 - 04/16/18 03:41 PM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Larryz]
bbqbob Offline
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In my opinion, we would not have the legend of Eric Clapton without his work in Cream. The seeds of the legend were planted when he was in the Yardbirds and that seed grew with his brief stay with John Mayall. With Mayall's Blues Breakers, he established himself as one of the best electric blues/rock guitarists to ever pick up a guitar. He was innovative and technically dazzling and a trend setter tone wise with his choice and manipulation of the Les Paul Standard and Marshall amp.
With Cream he continued to innovate. Pushed by the brilliant bass and drum work of Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker they fused the blues, rock, psychedelia and Jazz. They were one of the first to introduce lengthy jazz influenced jams to rock music. As happens sometimes when improvising, while brilliant most of the time in the hands of a skilled musician, it can sometimes run off the rails. Sometimes a guitarist can improvise themselves into a corner and have to find his/her way out. This happened to Clapton sometimes; nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Sure there were drugs involved and some self indulgence on the part of all three members of Cream but I think Clapton's work with Cream were his most innovative, exciting and influential; musically and tone wise. Crossroads, Sunshine of Your Love, White Room and Tales of Brave Ulysses have been essential touchstones for guitarists for decades. I can't imagine my record/CD collection without Cream in it.

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#2921780 - 04/16/18 04:02 PM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: bbqbob]
desertbluesman Offline
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I have probably told this story to you folks in this or the other forum, my buddy had front row seats at the Spectrum in Philly for the Cream's goodbye concert, and he could not make the concert, and he offered me his tickets for free, but I was just coming off of a bummer acid trip that day (The day before the concert) I simply did not want to go out among people while I was still trippin, so I declined and he gave the tickets to another friend, the next day, the day of the concert, I had changed my mind, but the tickets were gone. So much for that missed opportunity. They were and still are, in my memory, one of my all time favorite groups.
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#2921847 - 04/17/18 04:20 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: desertbluesman]
whitefang Offline
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I'll have to go with bbqbob up there. Not many here in the U.S. of A. really knew who Eric Clapton WAS before Cream hit it big. I'll freely and humbly admit it. And Eric was a large part( some would say the LARGEST) of that success. And as for Cream being his "best" work....

That is sort of a personal thing. I might go along with that as I personally feel it was the work of his I "liked best". Or at least, better than much of his work "post-Cream". For instance----

I never really cared much for the songs, "I Shot The Sheriff", "Lay Down Sally", "Cocaine", "Wonderful Tonight" (especially that one). Hell, I didn't even like "LAYLA". EITHER version. But that's me.

Never WAS a "low hanging fruit" kind of guy. wink
Whitefang
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#2921883 - 04/17/18 08:09 AM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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I pretty have pretty much enjoyed all of Clapton's music and guitar work over the years (to include those "low hanging fruit" songs). His work and time with Cream was the most memorable for me, probably because it was what I listened to while growing up... cool
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#2921960 - 04/17/18 02:24 PM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Larryz]
desertbluesman Offline
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The Cream days were for me Clapton's most interesting work. I can't say it is his best. "Best" is an opinion. Some folks might just like the cleanliness and production of his later works.

I appreciate all of what he has done over the years. My favorite is of course his Cream days. I like the raw improv character of those efforts.
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#2921965 - 04/17/18 02:39 PM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: desertbluesman]
Scott Fraser Offline
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I think they played pissed off at a higher creative level than Grateful Dead achieved playing stoned, & I find Cream a more engaging jam band as a result.
Although I usually prefer single coil tones myself, I'm more into Clapton's Gibson tone, whether on his LP, 335, Firebird, or SG. I think humbuckers define his signature tone more than what he gets from Strats.
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#2921971 - 04/17/18 03:11 PM Re: Crossroads By The Cream on Wheels Of Fire. [Re: Scott Fraser]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: desertbluesman
The Cream days were for me Clapton's most interesting work. I can't say it is his best. "Best" is an opinion. Some folks might just like the cleanliness and production of his later works.

I appreciate all of what he has done over the years. My favorite is of course his Cream days. I like the raw improv character of those efforts.


As for me, I find great similarities between EC's work at diff stages, so production quality hardly matters (except what might be his nadir in the late 20th C, where the productions were prolly most polished). What I prefer abt his later work is that it seems more personal than his early work, which as oft as not was a melange of licks garnered from the 3 Ks, etc.
There are actually pix of him in studio during recording of Disraeli Gears cueing up Albert King trax (look for this book: Disraeli Gears Cream by John A. Platt).
Even "Layla"'s main riff is an altered Albert lick...although devised by EC or DA...?

More pertinently, I think, if we use the terms accurately, both "most interesting" & "best" (or "better") might be more clearly definable than "favorite", which is definitely a matter of opinion.

Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
I think they played pissed off at a higher creative level than Grateful Dead achieved playing stoned, & I find Cream a more engaging jam band as a result.
Although I usually prefer single coil tones myself, I'm more into Clapton's Gibson tone, whether on his LP, 335, Firebird, or SG. I think humbuckers define his signature tone more than what he gets from Strats.

That's definitely true, I like some GD material but they never seemed particularly spirited or excited (Garcia got his back up over airbody worried abt him endangering their cash cow)...still I think Cream were more interesting in the studio than live.

Just for kicks, my fave 2 Cream trax...

The orig idea was to combine blues & jazz.
Is this track the source of "3rd Stone from the Sun"'s circular melody ?


It's straight 4/4 but wants y' to think otherwise.

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