Crumar Seven

[MojoGuyPan]

As much as I like the Crumar Seven's Rhodes-like concept, based on it's demos I think that a Kurzweil Forte would do most if not all of it's sounds better.

 

JMTC

 

Sorry bro but no way. The Kurzweil EPs are okay but not even in the same league as the Kronos let alone the Seven. I know this forum has a strong Kurzweil bias due to Dave W's presence but really the sun has set on their VAST architecture. They're milking every last drop out of what they have but really need to move forward to be competitive again.

[Adan]

The Seven sounds good but the reason I put in an order was not because I'm in search of better sounds. What I'm hoping for in the Seven is a more inspirational playing experience for the electromechanical emulations I'm using all the time.

[jimkost2002]

As much as I like the Crumar Seven's Rhodes-like concept, based on it's demos I think that a Kurzweil Forte would do most if not all of it's sounds better.

 

JMTC

 

Sorry bro but no way. The Kurzweil EPs are okay but not even in the same league as the Kronos let alone the Seven. I know this forum has a strong Kurzweil bias due to Dave W's presence but really the sun has set on their VAST architecture. They're milking every last drop out of what they have but really need to move forward to be competitive again.

 

Again, more misionformation stated as fact here.

Have YOU ever played the Forte with the latest OS?...

IF SO, can YOU cite the real, discernable differences between it and the PC/K series instruments it replaces/supercedes?

It is in a different league from earlier K boards, Forte being the new flagship Kurz board...

All the theater/Tour guys are stil using PC 3/K due to legacy and interface perferences, but that may change in time.

The Forte is being constantly updated and having new features (sequencers, etc) added.

 

My own emulator EP picks for sturdiness in the heat of battle are Yamaha and Modartt, followed by Crumar and Kurz. Korg has great EPs but is knocked out of contention by the HORRIBLE RH3

[jimkost2002]

 

... the one exception being Yamahas Electric and Acoustic Pianos.

 

What´s so different w/ them ?

I don´t have any newer Yamaha,- so I´m curious.

 

A.C.

 

Al, for me it is the playability factor you eloquently describe plus how they sit in a monitor mix.

Also, Ive never been let down by Yamaha in a backline situation.

I just end up asking for some kind of Motif/Montage/CP fot those reasons.

Does that make sense?

[jimkost2002]

The Seven sounds good but the reason I put in an order was not because I'm in search of better sounds. What I'm hoping for in the Seven is a more inspirational playing experience for the electromechanical emulations I'm using all the time.

 

Exactly, Adan.... me too

[jeffincltnc]

I think the Rhodes sounds from GSI/Crumar, Nord, Kurzweil and Korg are all pretty usable and convincing in hardware these days for my needs.

 

To the comment on Kurzweil not being good enough, I use the Purgatory Creek sounds as my go to in the Forte and the Dave Weiser sounds are a big upgrade. I havent gotten around to my goal of converting the Scarbee samples into Forte Flash memory yet but it is very much something that can be done and would be even better.

[Al Coda]

 

Al, for me it is the playability factor you eloquently describe plus how they sit in a monitor mix.

Also, Ive never been let down by Yamaha in a backline situation.

I just end up asking for some kind of Motif/Montage/CP fot those reasons.

Does that make sense?

 

Yes it does and at least in the 80s and 90s, Yamaha gear was in my rig always, built like tanks, very reliable and real workhorses.

I was never sure about the Motif series even it was kind of concert-touring standard.

I understood the MIDI implementation of the newer Yamaha gear often sucked and the 88 weighted action keyboards were the most bulky in the market and unnecessary heavy because of their size.

When I became interested in the XS rack, the XF keyboard came out, so I waited for a XF rack which never came.

Maybe they decide for a Montage rack near future ...

 

A.C.

[b3plyr]

I think the Rhodes sounds from GSI/Crumar, Nord, Kurzweil and Korg are all pretty usable and convincing in hardware these days for my needs.

 

To the comment on Kurzweil not being good enough, I use the Purgatory Creek sounds as my go to in the Forte and the Dave Weiser sounds are a big upgrade. I havent gotten around to my goal of converting the Scarbee samples into Forte Flash memory yet but it is very much something that can be done and would be even better.

 

Everyone has their opinions, but I agree with jeffinpghpa. I happened to choose the Forte over the Kronos partly because of the EPs. And as good as the original Forte EPs are, the updated ones released by Dave are simply incredible.

 

I think the Seven will fit a lot of people's needs, but I'm probably not one of them. For one I have to have splits, particularly for LHB. And I'm now trying to be a one board person. However, looks like Andre and Gido have produced another great product.

[ElmerJFudd]

On LHB you'll need their next digital that emulates the Fender Rhodes Piano Bass.

 

This is always the issue when building a digital that feels like an instrument but then we cry about what it doesn't do that a workstation does. What to put in and what to leave out - and make a price point - always a conundrum.

[The_Star_Guy]

So, I was reviewing the manual regarding the MKS Piano, which emulates the "E.Piano 1" voice. Are there any examples of this voice along with it's BBD chorus posted online yet? And are there any examples of the D6 Clavinet voice as well? I love modeled sounds in general, and I am loving the harmonic complexity that I have been hearing thus far in the demos!

[jazzpiano88]

So, I was reviewing the manual regarding the MKS Piano, which emulates the "E.Piano 1" voice. Are there any examples of this voice along with it's BBD chorus posted online yet? And are there any examples of the D6 Clavinet voice as well? I love modeled sounds in general, and I am loving the harmonic complexity that I have been hearing thus far in the demos!

I bought the MKS20 shortly after release. I can't remember the EPs that much as I bought it for the AP. I abandoned my MKS in Des Moines somewhere where we rehearsed after getting the call to move out west. Slipped thru the cracks as I was using the Rhodes MK80, Sound Canvas and TX7 at the time live.

 

The MKS-20 used an engine called "SA" or Structured Adaptive, which at the time I interpreted as a spectral component method.

 

So who knows what "Modeling" the proprietary MKS synthesis means?

 

Anyway, it would definitely be interesting to hear the Cr7 MKS EP1 again for old time sake!

 

[TomKittel]

Sorry bro but no way. The Kurzweil EPs are okay but not even in the same league as the Kronos let alone the Seven. I know this forum has a strong Kurzweil bias due to Dave W's presence but really the sun has set on their VAST architecture. They're milking every last drop out of what they have but really need to move forward to be competitive again.

 

Everyone has his own taste. After reading your post I am assuming that you never played a Forte or it's stellar variety of EP sounds including DW's and Bill's Purgatory Creek set. I bought the Forte 7 after I tried Korg SV1, Grandstage, Dexibell and Nord Stage 3. One of the reasons why I finally decided for the Forte was the sound and inspiring playability of it's Rhodes and Wurlis, the third party sounds in particular.

[MojoGuyPan]

After reading your post I am assuming that you never played a Forte or it's stellar variety of EP sounds including DW's and Bill's Purgatory Creek set. I bought the Forte 7

 

Half guilty as charged. I played the Forte in the store with headphones and honestly didn't hear a huge improvement over the PC3K that I had. The only major improvement to my ears was the AP not the EPs.

 

Maybe the Dave W patches or Purgatory Creek stuff take it to another level but I was just commenting on what you get from Kurzweil. Not going to buy his EP Pack to upgrade a floor model just to check it out so I really don't have chance to play a Forte with the upgraded EPs. But just the fact that you need third party EP's speaks volumes as to the weaksauce of the Forte native EP's as rolled by the factory.

 

I did get Dave's set for the K and it was legit. It really made the board more playable.

 

Having said that, what I am hearing from the Seven and my 61 is an order of magnitude more playable and expressive and alive.

 

Look, I'm not trying to trigger buyer's remorse in Forte owners. Because in reality almost no one cares about this stuff and the Forte can do a lot more than the Crumar Seven. In reality all of these EP's the SV-1, Forte, Motif, Kronos, CP4 are all good enough to play on a gig and no one is going to call out your EP as crap. It's just playing solo at home or even at a restaurant type gig you are going to be the one to notice the playability and nuance. Even on those gigs though the audience doesn't really care and something like a Casio would cut the mustard as far as the audience goes. (again, no slight to the Casio owners here and no I haven't tried the Weisersound PX5-S upgrade, but I do hate the action of the PX5 don't see how it gets so much love and the TP100 scorn. I am very unimpressed by the PX5's action. Not saying the TP100 is amazing but at least it is decent, I do get on with the 40 a little better.)

[ElmerJFudd]

Casio gets love because it's light to carry, it's priced well - has great value with regard to the sample and synth engines, and has a remarkably piano like action at this weight and price.

 

You have to spend over $2.5k to get the Forte sounds with a TP100 action and it still weighs 40.8lbs. Kurzweil recognizes the issue and so they developed the SP6 to get into Casios price/weight range but they had to source a different action yet again through Medeli. Kurzweil beats Casio on sound design but I'm not sure about action here or build quality.

 

The Seven is a lot of money for a TP100 when compared with a Forte SE. But obviously the Seven's build is solid and it looks feels and vibes like an analog. So hard to compare these two even at similar price point. The Kurzweil is obviously more capable feature/function wise.

 

Where the Seven does well on price is when compared to Waldorf Zarenbourg and Yamaha CP1, even Nord Piano 3 - though the Yamaha balanced action is best imho for EPs though weight is all over the place on these.

 

[drawback]

ZioGuido, will Sevens acoustic piano (with the same editing capabilities) be available for the Mojo61?

 

 

No, sorry.

I do understand if this is for technical and/or marketing reasons. The reason I ask is because the AP is just the final weak link in the Mojo61 sound palette and an upgrade of this quality & edit-abilities would be fantastic.

 

 

 

[ZioGuido]

I do understand if this is for technical and/or marketing reasons. The reason I ask is because the AP is just the final weak link in the Mojo61 sound palette and an upgrade of this quality & edit-abilities would be fantastic.

 

The point is that the AP is the one sound that wasn't supposed to be in the Mojo61... but you know, sometimes we like to play with our fate, and it ended up that the Mojo61 - which is born as a clonewheel organ - is now criticized for the only sound that it wasn't supposed to have.

 

 

 

 

[drawback]

So, personal reasons then. I can dig it. Its your product. End of discussion.

[Jazz+]

Replacing the Mojo 61 AP with the modeled AP could boost Mojo sales And be good for Crumars already good reputation, imo. The AP is the sound in the Electro that trumps the Mojo 61. The current Mojo 61 has great organ, Rhodes, Wurly, Clav, and a better action. The Mojo 61 AP sounds okay, BUT the finger to sound connection is not good . It simply lags and is not sufficient for fast single note lines. That is why I never really play it. The modeled AP would hopefully resolve that and connect better to the response of the action trigger points...finger to sound behavior enhancement is needed with current version.

[Delaware Dave]

Guido, will the new piano be available in the Gemini? The Gemini was not marketed as a clonewheel organ, so using your logic above will the Gemini receive the new piano?

[ElmerJFudd]

Replacing the Mojo 61 AP with the modeled AP could boost Mojo sales And be good for Crumars already good reputation, imo. The AP is the sound in the Electro that trumps the Mojo 61. The current Mojo 61 has great organ, Rhodes, Wurly, Clav, and a better action. The Mojo 61 AP sounds okay, BUT the finger to sound connection is not good . It simply lags and is not sufficient for fast single note lines. That is why I never really play it. The modeled AP would hopefully resolve that and connect better to the response of the action trigger points...finger to sound behavior enhancement is needed with current version.

 

It could - however we haven't heard an example of the Seven's acoustic piano model that sounds like what you get on a CP4, the Nord Library or Pianoteq for that matter. And the acoustic piano is again included begrudgingly on what is meant to be an instrument focused on electric piano sounds. That said, depending on how editable - we might be able to coax a convincing AP out of the Seven as is possible with the CP80/70 model.

[Jazz+]

I remember the Korg Wavestation was supposed to be an electronic synth keyboard. But when they made it EX by simply adding an acoustic piano patch, then everyone wanted one. They boosted sales with that update. It would make sense for Crumar, since they already have the AP piano modeled.

[ElmerJFudd]

Rhodes engine using amp simulation:

[video:youtube]

 

with phaser (preset n. 2-1):

[video:youtube]

 

[MojoGuyPan]

This thread has really done a 180 on the AP model in the Seven. First everyone says it sucks, now everyone is upset that this sucky modelled piano is not going to be made available for the 61 or Gemini.

 

The AP in the Seven sounds off, more like it is a Yamaha CP Grand. Honestly I don't care to have it in the 61. I've been using my Numa Stage with the Mojo 61 and the piano in the Stage is pretty good and the Mojo's EP's triggered by the Stage are bad ass. You really need good keys to really enjoy the EP's in the 61 anyway and most hammer boards will have a better sounding AP.

 

The Seven though needs a legit AP model or sample. I get that it's an EP recreation first and foremost but for this thing to be considered by most people you need to have a viable AP sound in there. No way am I bringing the Seven AND something like a CP4. That's just way too much to lug around.

[ABECK]

 

with phaser (preset n. 2-1):

[video:youtube]

 

Oh man, that's my jam. I would buy for this alone. Better start looking under my couch cushions for loose change - GAS attack!! Damn you Guido!

[AnotherScott]

The Seven though needs a legit AP model or sample.

It's subjective, but from what I'm hearing, I'd say it has one. Maybe not a likely first choice for a featured solo piano gig or to record with, but a more than serviceable one for most gigging purposes.

 

Another possibility, if you also need organ, is that instead of putting a Mojo61 above it, you put a Nord Electro 5D/6D above it, and then you can also drive those acoustic pianos from the Seven.

 

No keyboard, no company, no person, is totally brilliant at everything. This is currently Crumar's best acoustic piano. So the choice for the Seven would be to have this piano or none at all, or for the Seven to not exist. Of those three choices, what's best?

 

If you need a board with a better piano than this, that's what you should buy. Criticizing the Seven for something it isn't and it can't be (based on Crumar's current tech) is like criticizing a cat for not being a dog.

[Jazz+]

I never criticized the modeled AP sound in the Seven in any way! I thought it sounded fine the first time I heard the Seven AP demos, it sounds as if it would be especially good for live playing. And I am almost sure it would behave better in the Mojo 61 than its current sampled AP which has serious lag time problems when triggered from its Mojo keyboard. I have no need for a sampled AP that cannot keep up with my performance. All the other sounds in the mojo 61, which are modeled sounds, are capable of keeping up with my playing. My expectation is that a modeled AP would behave better in the Mojo 61 and not lag so much. I have been calling for a digital acoustic piano replacement in the Mojo 61 for a year now. I cannot understand why the modeled AP will not replace the current sluggish sampled piano in an update.

 

Guido, why is it no?

[ElmerJFudd]

The Seven though needs a legit AP model or sample.

It's subjective, but from what I'm hearing, I'd say it has one. Maybe not a likely first choice for a featured solo piano gig or to record with, but a more than serviceable one for most gigging purposes.

 

Another possibility, if you also need organ, is that instead of putting a Mojo61 above it, you put a Nord Electro 5D/6D above it, and then you can also drive those acoustic pianos from the Seven.

 

No keyboard, no company, no person, is totally brilliant at everything. This is currently Crumar's best acoustic piano. So the choice for the Seven would be to have this piano or none at all, or for the Seven to not exist. Of those three choices, what's best?

 

If you need a board with a better piano than this, that's what you should buy. Criticizing the Seven for something it isn't and it can't be (based on Crumar's current tech) is like criticizing a cat for not being a dog.

 

That's the issue. It's a lot to drag out this beast as your piano when it's not great for acoustic piano. I haven't seen anything to change my opinion from what's been shared. The piano on the Mojo61 isn't competitive either, though at any static point it rings like the piano it was sampled from.

 

So you need a module, laptop or something with the Seven to do solo piano work. It's otherwise pretty cool. Acoustic Piano is someplace Guido could spend some time, particularly because the other timbres in their collection are good to excellent.

 

Jazz+ has the Mojo61 and is asking for the piano model from the Seven because he isn't satisfied with how the piano in the Mojo61 plays. That's unfortunate and a totally fixable situation.

[mate stubb]

Acoustic Piano is someplace Guido could spend some time, particularly because the other timbres in their collection are good to excellent.

 

Again I ask: When has Guido NOT done this? He built a little VST that turned into one of the best tonewheel emulations in the world thru many updates. Ditto for his leslie simulator. Ditto for his reed piano model. Ditto for his clavinet model. Ditto for his tine piano module. They are all among the best in the world now.

 

What makes anybody think that having conquered all these, he is going to sit on his hands and not apply his energy and creativity to the acoustic piano model?

[sosho]

I wonder if it is much differnt from the gemini rhodes . Apart from the fact that it probably feels much better with the sevens kb action.

 

[Adan]

 

So you need a module, laptop or something with the Seven to do solo piano work.

 

You may be overestimating the aesthetic sensitivity of the average solo piano audience. I haven't heard anything in the videos that would make people drop their dinner forks and flee from the room.

 

I'd agree that for someone who does lots of solo piano work and only occasionally plays band stuff where EPs are needed, the Seven may not be a logical choice.