Crumar Seven

[ZioGuido]

The real DX has a rounder, fatter more mellow tone than the model in the Seven (as presented). I would attribute this to the DA conversion in the Seven compared to the Yamaha DX7.

 

Actually, the difference between the real DX7 (mark I), that I used in that video, and the Seven is that the old DX7's internal keyboard doesn't respond to the full MIDI velocity range, it just stops around 102 or 104 out of 127 values, while the Seven responds to the full range. If you try to control a DX7 from an external MIDI master keyboard that uses the whole range, you'll notice that you can reach a brigher sound that you won't reach even applying the same force on the DX7's internal keyboard.

 

This explains why the DX7 sounds kind of "rounder, fatter more mellow"... And is pretty funny because both instruments are digital and the sound generation is the same. This also applies to all other FM synth emulations or clones that can replicate the DX7 presets. If there's a difference, it's only about how the keyboard responds to MIDI velocity and / or how sound parameters are mapped.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

The real DX has a rounder, fatter more mellow tone than the model in the Seven (as presented). I would attribute this to the DA conversion in the Seven compared to the Yamaha DX7. And the difference in the CPs related to digital vs. analog sound source and the colour of the converters. Maybe Crumar can give us an idea of what they are using on their Gemini hardware with regard to the DAC. Obviously they can't change the DAC for every instrument they are trying to emulate so perhaps some magic can be made with filters, eq and the amp simulators when going direct.

I don't think differences in DACs can be so dramatic. I would expect the same basic sound processed though two different DACs to be indistinguishable on a youtube video.

 

Actually, the difference between the real DX7 (mark I), that I used in that video, and the Seven is that the old DX7's internal keyboard doesn't respond to the full MIDI velocity range, it just stops around 102 or 104 out of 127 values, while the Seven responds to the full range. If you try to control a DX7 from an external MIDI master keyboard that uses the whole range, you'll notice that you can reach a brigher sound that you won't reach even applying the same force on the DX7's internal keyboard.

 

This explains why the DX7 sounds kind of "rounder, fatter more mellow"... And is pretty funny because both instruments are digital and the sound generation is the same. This also applies to all other FM synth emulations or clones that can replicate the DX7 presets. If there's a difference, it's only about how the keyboard responds to MIDI velocity and / or how sound parameters are mapped.

Maybe there should be a Seven/Gemini DX7 preset that velocity-limits the DX7 sound to 100, to allow for someone to get the same "maximum" brightness they would get on an actual DX7. Whether or not it's as "good" would be debatable, but it would be more authentic, to the extent that the vast majority of DX7 sounds on records were recorded with the DX7 played from its own, velocity limited keys.

[ZioGuido]

Maybe there should be a Seven/Gemini DX7 preset that velocity-limits the DX7 sound to 100, to allow for someone to get the same "maximum" brightness they would get on an actual DX7. Whether or not it's as "good" would be debatable, but it would be more authentic, to the extent that the vast majority of DX7 sounds on records were recorded with the DX7 played from its own, velocity limited keys.

 

Maybe not: if I had used a DX7-IID (which I also own), it had responded exactly like the Seven, because they solved this velocity issue with the Mark II of DX7... not to mention that one has a very soft (and wear out) synth action keybed, the other has a hammer-action keybed.

 

And it's a very old debate between DX7-I and DX7-II, some people still think that the DX7-I sounds warmer just because the Mark I of everything has to sound warmer (think at Minimoogs, Prophets, and so on). Also, if a digital emulation of something is compared to the real thing, it's of mathematical certainty that the real thing sounds warmer, because our brain tells us so.

 

 

[ABECK]

I might do a new video demonstrating how it can be blended to sound in different ways.

 

However, the CP simulation in the current Gemini version is different than the one in the Seven, which was completely rewritten from the gound up. The next update for the gemini will replace the old model with the new one.

 

 

Thanks, Guido. That would be cool - would love to hear that.

It's great that you continue to update the Gemini! Keep up the good work.

[AnotherScott]

Maybe there should be a Seven/Gemini DX7 preset that velocity-limits the DX7 sound to 100

 

Maybe not: if I had used a DX7-IID (which I also own), it had responded exactly like the Seven

I wasn't suggesting that you eliminate the full range ability, only that you offer an additional preset someone could use if they wanted the instrument to sound as much as possible like the original DX7.

[Markyboard]

 

And it's a very old debate between DX7-I and DX7-II, some people still think that the DX7-I sounds warmer just because the Mark I of everything has to sound warmer (think at Minimoogs, Prophets, and so on). Also, if a digital emulation of something is compared to the real thing, it's of mathematical certainty that the real thing sounds warmer, because our brain tells us so.

 

Yeah, because everyone knows when you want warmth you immediately reach for your DX7 (of any variety).

[CEB]

Somewhere ... probably 10-12 pages back I mentioned Mr. Ray. I was curious if this keyboard runs Mr. Ray. I always liked Ray.

[ZioGuido]

Somewhere ... probably 10-12 pages back I mentioned Mr. Ray. I was curious if this keyboard runs Mr. Ray. I always liked Ray.

 

We could say that it all started from there, but it's not quite the same as the plugin... None of the sounds running in the Crumar or GSi hardware products has much in common with the plugins, because at some point I had a fresh start with all of the sounds I had already made in the past.

 

By the way, here's a new video.

 

 

[kenheeter]

Guido, I'd love to see a video similar to this one where you spend some time with the acoustic piano and settings.

[ChazKeys]

I dont mind the Gemini CP emulation. I prefer the CP on the Reface but I play a couple of songs that feature CP70 and I have to say that the Nord CP is my preferred option - really cuts through a loud rock band too. Its about 70Mb so ithere must be quite a few samples in there. I cant remember much about it but owned and toured with CP70 in late 70s and early 80s and the Nord gets me back there! But looking forward to the CP80 update for the Gemini.

[ElmerJFudd]

Somewhere ... probably 10-12 pages back I mentioned Mr. Ray. I was curious if this keyboard runs Mr. Ray. I always liked Ray.

 

We could say that it all started from there, but it's not quite the same as the plugin... None of the sounds running in the Crumar or GSi hardware products has much in common with the plugins, because at some point I had a fresh start with all of the sounds I had already made in the past.

 

By the way, here's a new video.

 

 

Right, there's a lot to work with here to get what you're after. Cool.

 

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/C0TCAj2xqfs

 

[ABECK]

That sounds much better (for what I like). Thanks! Also - the other vid you posted with the Phaser on the ER - that is outstanding! Sounds like Richard Tee.

[ZioGuido]

Sounds like Richard Tee.

 

Sounds like

 

(He was a very famous italian artist, I've grown with his music and those sounds)

[sosho]

 

Maybe not: if I had used a DX7-IID (which I also own), it had responded exactly like the Seven, because they solved this velocity issue with the Mark II of DX7... not to mention that one has a very soft (and wear out) synth action keybed, the other has a hammer-action keybed.

 

And it's a very old debate between DX7-I and DX7-II, some people still think that the DX7-I sounds warmer just because the Mark I of everything has to sound warmer (think at Minimoogs, Prophets, and so on). Also, if a digital emulation of something is compared to the real thing, it's of mathematical certainty that the real thing sounds warmer, because our brain tells us so.

 

Are you sure the DX7 II has the full velocity range using it' s own keyboard ? I used a DX7 IID as MIDI controller for quite some time , I always added 10 steps at least in cubase to get fortissimo out of expanders. And it produced strange overly sharp sounds when played from a korg stage piano .

 

[MojoGuyPan]

This Seven sounds better and better each week. The amount of variability and adjustments that can be made to the CP is astounding. Guido hit it out of the park, this is a homerun board for sure. Can't wait until April 12th.

[Al Coda]

 

Yeah, because everyone knows when you want warmth you immediately reach for your DX7 (of any variety).

 

 

And it works ... when you set it on fire !

 

A.C.

[SteeVtheRipper]

I am seriously considering this as an alternative to getting a Wurly and Clav. I have a Rhodes and a CP, but I can just imagine this sitting on top of either, matching beautifully with all it's vintage goodness. Throw in a mojo and there's all my electro bases covered!

 

[Al Coda]

Are you sure the DX7 II has the full velocity range using it' s own keyboard ? I used a DX7 IID as MIDI controller for quite some time , I always added 10 steps at least in cubase to get fortissimo out of expanders. And it produced strange overly sharp sounds when played from a korg stage piano .

 

You´re right.

In real world usage, DX7mkII, KX76, KX5 as also (early) KX88, they all need some velocity compensation even the MIDI implementation reports the full velocity range 0-127.

I´d break fingers or keys before reaching 127.

 

Anyway ...

External solutions like velocity transformers etc. cannot be used internal,- so in a DP using such FM algorithm, there should be some perfect match for the action and sound engine, maybe in a dedicated preset which is recalled automaticly when the FM engine is selected.

 

A.C.

[TomKittel]

As much as I like the Crumar Seven's Rhodes-like concept, based on it's demos I think that a Kurzweil Forte would do most if not all of it's sounds better.

 

JMTC

[Al Coda]

As much as I like the Crumar Seven's Rhodes-like concept, based on it's demos I think that a Kurzweil Forte would do most if not all of it's sounds better.

 

Probably not comparable ...

Forte 7 = EUR 2.849,- incl. VAT

Forte 8 is EUR 47,- more ...

 

Now, when Kurzweil came w/ some more advanced SP model using identical sample content (size and quality of samples), FX engine and preset design just only for the piano- and epiano- models and some pad sounds in addition,- that might be comparable then.

 

I have no clue if the Kurz SP-6 or Forte SE sound better than the Seven,- define "better" please,- but maybe they don´t.

 

I don´t give much on web demos.

When I unpacked my Kurz PC361 many years ago, I quickly recognized it didn´t sound as demonstrated in the web (Youtube/ Soundcloud) and also not as good as in the earphones when being played back via speakers/ studio monitors.

In the end it was all about action mapping, velocity curve and (endless) tweaking.

 

The Seven´s Rhodes sound very good,- and I´m a big Rhodes fan from the past.

Wurli is good too, at least to my ears.

Haven´t heard all the others up to now ...(was there a Clav vid already ?)

 

But for me, only 2 FX slots aren´t enough unfortunately,- not only in the Crumar Seven but also in other manufacturer´s designs.

 

The Kurzweil is the only one where I can freely organize my desired FX in any sequential order inside a chain and adjust all the gain staging for every single FX per preset and control all in realtime.

I love creating those chains I originally used w/ the real Rhodes and a bunch of stomp boxes, then use just only that preset and switch FX on/ off in realtime on demand.

 

EQ, Fuzz, Ped.-CtrlWah/ Touchwah, Ringmod, Compressor, Phaser, Chorus/Flanger, Tremolo.

That´s what possible in a PC3´s Insert-FX chain,- plus Delay and Reverb in the AUXes.

 

And the Forte has twice the FX power, so we can do much more, especially in a setup/ multi now.

 

A.C.

[jimkost2002]

As much as I like the Crumar Seven's Rhodes-like concept, based on it's demos I think that a Kurzweil Forte would do most if not all of it's sounds better.

 

JMTC

 

Ive used a Forte 7 as well as Mojo61 and Gemini....

(Havent tried Purgatory creek yet)

In my recording, touring experience (in dealing with emulators) Physical Modeling ALWAYS TRUMPS SAMPLING.....

However, Im always reminded of the quote by the great Rumanian Conductor Celibidache when asked to describe the difference between Live Performance and Recordings:

 

Its like making love to a picture of Brigitte Bardot as opposed to the flesh and blood Woman

 

We will see how good the Sevens picture is soon enough

[Al Coda]

Sounds like

 

(He was a very famous italian artist, I've grown with his music and those sounds)

 

 

A great artist who unfortunately died much too early !

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

 

In my recording, touring experience (in dealing with emulators) Physical Modeling ALWAYS TRUMPS SAMPLING.

 

There are modelling engines out there not sounding that good as other´s sampling technology.

IMO, the Physis Piano´s modelling engine is one of these examples.

 

We have powerful DSPs and some knowledge meanwhile,- but there´s more than one way to skin a cat.

The crucial intellectual approach, budget, manpower and different coder´s skills make the difference then.

 

A.C.

 

[TomKittel]

As much as I like the Crumar Seven's Rhodes-like concept, based on it's demos I think that a Kurzweil Forte would do most if not all of it's sounds better.

 

JMTC

 

Ive used a Forte 7 as well as Mojo61 and Gemini....

(Havent tried Purgatory creek yet)

In my recording, touring experience (in dealing with emulators) Physical Modeling ALWAYS TRUMPS SAMPLING.....

 

Kurzweil's VAST engine is not just a sample player.

[drawback]

ZioGuido, will Sevens acoustic piano (with the same editing capabilities) be available for the Mojo61?

 

 

[jimkost2002]

As much as I like the Crumar Seven's Rhodes-like concept, based on it's demos I think that a Kurzweil Forte would do most if not all of it's sounds better.

 

JMTC

 

Ive used a Forte 7 as well as Mojo61 and Gemini....

(Havent tried Purgatory creek yet)

In my recording, touring experience (in dealing with emulators) Physical Modeling ALWAYS TRUMPS SAMPLING.....

 

Kurzweil's VAST engine is not just a sample player.

 

I am well aware of VAST having broader capabilities than sample playback.

 

Al described these factors and others going into sound design quite well.

 

I am NOT saying ALL physical modeling trumps ALL other techniques just that the playability of the BEST physical modeling (Crumar, Modartt) trumps other techniques regarding playability, the one exception being Yamahas Electric and Acoustic Pianos.

[AnotherScott]

External solutions like velocity transformers etc. cannot be used internal,- so in a DP using such FM algorithm, there should be some perfect match for the action and sound engine, maybe in a dedicated preset which is recalled automaticly when the FM engine is selected.

The question is whether there is some "perfect match." Since as Guido alluded to, even different DX models behaved differently (even if there is disagreement here about to what extent), along with the variable that would be introduced by the fact that none of those sounds were originally played with a hammer action. What Guido seems to be aiming for is something like "this is what a DX7 would sound like, if you triggered it externally from a weighted MID controller." Which brings me back to my suggestion of--rather than offering a single velocity curve that is invoked for every FM sound--having recallable presets which could have different curves. So if a user wanted an FM piano velocity-limited to 100 for the most authentic recreation of playing an original DX7, such an option would be available, but not to the exclusion of Guido's current approach, which clearly isn't going anywhere. ;-)

[ZioGuido]

But for me, only 2 FX slots aren´t enough unfortunately

 

Just to be picky... the signal chain in the Seven is:

 

Piano -> FX1 (Tremolo|Pan|Wha) -> FX2 (Chorus|Phaser|Flanger|Delay) -> Amp Sim (with overdrive and EQ) -> Reverb -> Master EQ / Volume.

 

So you actually have a total of 6 effects in the chain.

 

On a side note, I'm surprised that you knew Pino Daniele

 

 

[ZioGuido]

ZioGuido, will Sevens acoustic piano (with the same editing capabilities) be available for the Mojo61?

 

 

No, sorry.

[Al Coda]

 

I am NOT saying ALL physical modeling trumps ALL other techniques just that the playability of the BEST physical modeling (Crumar, Modartt) trumps other techniques regarding playability,...

 

I agree,- and I also hope for more improved modelling techniques in hardware instruments all the time.

Now you mention Modartt which in deed is top notch.

But we don´t find it inside a hardware instrument by some reasons ...

I understand it needs powerful Intel processors not to deal w/ more latency than a hardware instrument introduces.

 

So, when you already use some powerful and stable lowest latency software rig,- what do you need ?

You need a great controller and not the "Seven" in that case,- Kawai VPC-1, Physis Piano K4 or a Kurz w/ it´s excellent MIDI implementation (and internal engine as a backup) instead.

 

... the one exception being Yamahas Electric and Acoustic Pianos.

 

What´s so different w/ them ?

I don´t have any newer Yamaha,- so I´m curious.

 

A.C.