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#2914489 - 03/12/18 10:34 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: AnotherScott]
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Imho the advantage of a digital in addition to needing little maintenance is not being limited by analog instruments limitations, especially the sound set. But also save and recall of sounds and fix as presets. The Seven isn’t just a digital Rhodes, right from inception it’s supposed to replace the need to drag your wurly and DX etc. around too. Digital instruments don’t need to be limited by ththe range of the source instruments either. wink

They’ll probably concede some more tones as time goes by like th did with the Mojo61. Added value to spur sales as the wave of “ill try it” buys begin to taper off.
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#2914495 - 03/12/18 10:48 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: davedoerfler]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
Some things never change.
Back in 1991 I was in music retail when the Roland JD 800 was released. 100 sliders (OK, I'm exaggerating to make a point) on the thing for sculpting sounds and the first question was always "How does the piano sound?" facepalm

I had that happen at the store where I worked with the Wavestation when it first came out.

Apparently, so did Korg - shortly thereafter, the Wavesation EX (now with piano!) showed up.

dB
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#2914508 - 03/12/18 12:02 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Dave Bryce]
Aussie_Chicago Offline
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Crumar is an Italian company , so my thinking on this is they have created something that gives a vibe of playing an electric piano on stage or home . Remember, most of us live in areas where rhodes or wurlies are pretty easy to come by , in many areas of the world, these instruments are not easilly accessible , as well as techs to work on them.
If you notice, a lot of effort has gone into creating clonewheels, its not co-incidence that most of these companys are european based , its not easy to go buy a B3 like it is here in the States . Im thinking this theory also applies to the Seven.

This instrument may appeal to some, but may not appeal to all , but having options to suit what you want is good , I applaud Crumar for this concept .
Sometimes, it not just about the sound , but the overall vibe of playing an instrument.
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#2914520 - 03/12/18 12:53 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Aussie_Chicago]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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Good points. Where the inspirational instruments are not easily come by. A digital look/sound/function/feel alike is probably even more desirable than in places where if you wanted a Rhodes, Wurly or even VV model - you could get your hands on it.
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#2914523 - 03/12/18 01:19 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Nadroj]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nadroj
This thread is starting to look like a gearsluz.com KC Roland thread - 2 pages of hype and 4 pages of moaning and bitching before the thing is even released.


Fixed. snax
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#2914524 - 03/12/18 01:19 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Dave Bryce]
ZefrKeys Offline
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Well first up great to see it has a built in power supply with a 2 pin mains lead like the early Nords. No chance of plugging the wrong PSU in. Anyway here is my 2 penneth...

1]
As for reliability of Crumar products.here’s my recent experience with gear:

2013 XK-1 flickering panel - dry joints on board inter connects
2014 SV- 1 RH3 keybed issue - fixed with new rubber contacts from Parts is Parts
2015 Sub 37 LFO 2 waveform selector not working - sent back to Thoman and fixed FOC
2015 Nord E5D knobs kept falling off - Nord sent me a new set FOC
2016 Gemini left channel noisy - sent back, dry joint, returned but still a little noisy. Fixed FOC but I had to pay carriage to Italy
2016 Prophet 08 faulty board - replaced FOC but cost £s to ship the board to US

2)
Sampled, modelled or the real thing. Well the real thing would be great but a Rhodes or Wurly is going to need a good amp and loads of pedals to get anything like the sound you have in your head. One way to get a sampled or modelled Wurly/Rhodes cooking is to run it through some analogue pedals. I think the buzz about Lounsberry pedals is testament to that. If you want your Clav to sound the same as Herbie Hancock’s on Thrust and those other early 70’s albums you need to run it through a Fender Fuzz Wah.

3)
While playing keyboards live for most of us is a compromise it’s never boring and looking at members’ gear list it’s clear that the good stuff stays at home or in the studio.

Anyway the Seven won’t tick all the boxes - can any instrument? Too many variables. But in the same way the analogue synth market has grown in the last few years let’s just enjoy all these amazing developments as people like Guido continue their quest to give us the best clone, electric piano or whatever.

I suppose the only real solution is more companies like VV producing lightweight vintage instruments. Moog, Roland, Sequential etc are all producing modern vintage stuff - anyone out there prepared to R&D and launch a modern tonewheel.

Sorry if I’ve gone a bit off topic there.




Edited by ZefrKeys (03/12/18 01:23 PM)

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#2914526 - 03/12/18 01:29 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: ZefrKeys]
Happy Birthday davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: ZefrKeys
Sorry if I’ve gone a bit off topic there.


nothing to be sorry about. Happens every day, especially with a thread this long.
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#2914527 - 03/12/18 01:32 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: ZefrKeys]
MojoGuyPan Offline
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I can't believe how quickly this thread went from excitement and optimism to negativity and complaining. Especially over a sound which is just included as an afterthought.

I'm waiting for somewhere in the next three pages where people start complaining that there is no B3 in there. "Look man, it's got the Gemini in there. How hard would it have been to put in VB3? You could control it from your phone and not have to bring a clonewheel to the gig. Crumar is scamming us into buying two boards, plus the Gemini based VA synth they're rolling out next year."

My only gripe is the price. $1400 and I'm in. Over $2k like it is and I really have to want this.

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#2914528 - 03/12/18 01:36 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: MojoGuyPan]
Reezekeys Offline
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Not to mention that nobody has seen one in the flesh and played it.

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#2914529 - 03/12/18 01:38 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: drawback]
Jazz+ Offline
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Originally Posted By: drawback
[quote=ABECK]
That said, if that modeled piano ever finds its way into the Mojo61, that would be pretty much all I’d want - other than adding the bottom few keys for the Clavinet poke


Mojo 61: And add a few bottom keys for when Transpose is ON. For example: I get called to play organ "The Thrill is Gone" in B- , so I "Transpose" down by a semi tone and play it in familiar C- , but hey I just lost the low C root in my left hand bass - dead silent. There is no good reason for not extending the range lower for a TRANSPOSABLE DIGITAL instrument unless it is impossible to implement in the software. Please fix, pretty please.
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#2914530 - 03/12/18 01:39 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Reezekeys]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Not to mention that nobody has seen one in the flesh and played it.

Yeah, there is that... grin

dB
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#2914532 - 03/12/18 01:45 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Dave Bryce]
Jazz+ Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Not to mention that nobody has seen one in the flesh and played it.

Yeah, there is that... grin

dB


I third that, strongly agree. One should experience how it responds and sounds to being played in the flesh.
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#2914540 - 03/12/18 02:37 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Adan]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Adan
The EPs on the Grandstage sound better and play significantly better than the SV1.

I wonder how the Vox Continental compares for EP... possibly the quality of the Kronos/Grandstage EPs plus the advantage of the SV1's tube. Only 18.5 lbs for the 73, too. Though a semi-weighted action, of course.
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#2914543 - 03/12/18 02:48 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Jazz+]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+

Mojo 61: And add a few bottom keys for when Transpose is ON. For example: I get called to play organ "The Thrill is Gone" in B- , so I "Transpose" down by a semi tone and play it in familiar C- , but hey I just lost the low C root in my left hand bass - dead silent. There is no good reason for not extending the range lower for a TRANSPOSABLE DIGITAL instrument unless it is impossible to implement in the software. Please fix, pretty please.


You so crazy. wink
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#2914549 - 03/12/18 03:00 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: mate stubb]
Jazz+ Offline
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Why is the half step transpose button on the top panel?
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#2914553 - 03/12/18 03:45 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: ZefrKeys]
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Originally Posted By: ZefrKeys

2016 Gemini left channel noisy - sent back, dry joint, returned but still a little noisy. Fixed FOC but I had to pay carriage to Italy
2016 Prophet 08 faulty board - replaced FOC but cost £s to ship the board to US


Not wishing to hone in on either of those manufacturers in particular, but it does make the point that there are other potential costs to factor in when you ponder deviating in your choices from the products of the big corporations with multi-national distribution and service operations.
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#2914554 - 03/12/18 03:50 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Aidan]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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New Seven video comparing CP piano and DX EP to the real thing.



dB
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#2914564 - 03/12/18 05:00 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Dave Bryce]
Jazz+ Offline
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Great reproductions of the the Electric Grand CP and the DX7 EP, imo.
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#2914583 - 03/12/18 07:56 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: AnotherScott]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

We are also dealing with the fact that humans are simply imperfect. Whatever it is you do for a living, you've probably screwed up on occasion, too. ;-)


So you say, in the past when the electronic instruments were more reliable, the humans were less imperfect ?
All the gear I bought before Y2K rarely showed issues and needed repair occasionally only, even most of it was on the road and in the hands of roadies for decades.
But we discussed that already several times before in other threads.

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

Originally Posted By: Al Coda
For myself, it´s too expensive for what it does.
For that money I want (MIDI-) multi-timbrality.

That's not a matter of too expensive, that's a matter of wrong tool for the job.


No, it´s matter of what I myself expect from digital keyboard instruments in that pricerange !

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

You might as well make the same complaint about a Minimoog. Or a Steinway.


No, those aren´t digital DSP based.

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

EP afficandos...


Those are typically the guys and dolls buying the real deals like (Fender) Rhodes, Wurli, Clavinet, Pianet refurbished,- or used and overhaul/refurbish themselves or give it to a repair/service shop managing the task.

A.C.

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#2914586 - 03/12/18 08:08 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Mitch Towne]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mitch Towne
If you have a smart phone, then you already have that device.


I don´t have one, also not iPad/ tablet PC or "up to date" laptop.

A.C.

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#2914587 - 03/12/18 08:20 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Al Coda]
Mitch Towne Offline
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Registered: 01/26/07
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Originally Posted By: Al Coda
Originally Posted By: Mitch Towne
If you have a smart phone, then you already have that device.


I don´t have one, also not iPad/ tablet PC or "up to date" laptop.

A.C.


You can obviously access the internet. That's all you need. smile

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#2914591 - 03/12/18 08:57 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Al Coda]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Al Coda
So you say, in the past when the electronic instruments were more reliable, the humans were less imperfect ?
All the gear I bought before Y2K rarely showed issues and needed repair occasionally only, even most of it was on the road and in the hands of roadies for decades.
But we discussed that already several times before in other threads.

Ah, I didn't realize you were making a distinction between old and new gear. Though personally, I can't say I've seen a big difference.

Originally Posted By: Al Coda
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

You might as well make the same complaint about a Minimoog. Or a Steinway.


No, those aren´t digital DSP based.

Okay, then make it a Roland V-Piano, Nord C2D, Solaris synth, Yamaha CP1, Hammond XK5, Kawai MP11, Virus TI2, or Viscount Legend. You might not be the customer for any of them, but they all have their fans. For some people, they are the right tool for the job, despite their non-budget price.

Originally Posted By: Al Coda
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

EP afficandos...


Those are typically the guys and dolls buying the real deals like (Fender) Rhodes, Wurli, Clavinet, Pianet refurbished,- or used and overhaul/refurbish themselves or give it to a repair/service shop managing the task.

Not every player focussed on those instruments has the budget to buy and maintain them all, nor the desire to bring them all to a gig. There could be a market for a modern, simple, reliable substitute for the lot of them. I guess at least Crumar is hoping so.
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#2914610 - 03/13/18 03:19 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Al Coda]
ZioGuido Offline
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Originally Posted By: Al Coda

So you say, in the past when the electronic instruments were more reliable, the humans were less imperfect ?


You're comparing instruments made 30 years ago in Japan or other asian Countries to instruments made today by smaller Companies located in EU or US. I'm sorry, but it's even worse than comparing apples and oranges.

1. What was the cost of a brand new DX7 in 1983 and what was the average income in the same year? You needed to sum 6 monthly salaries to afford a DX7.

2. What was (and still is) the average cost of an asian worker? It was (and still is) at least 1/4 of an average western worker.

I'm not going further because these two aspects alone should be more than enough to help you understand the difference between now and then, and between here and there.

But there's more: instruments are made from several parts - including wood, iron, aluminium, wirings - plus the circuit boards and the silicon components. Let's take the wood alone - can you imagine how the new anti-pollution international regulations have affected the quality of a single piece of wood? And what about the non recyclable parts such as the printed circuit boards or the "lead free" and "ROHS" solder tin? Shall I continue? What about the lead-less paint? And what about the lack of copper on the planet that causes many electric wire manufacturers to replace the copper wires with copper-plated aluminium-core wires? And what about the freight from Asia to western Countries? Is it cheaper now than 30 years ago? No.

It's not the quality of our keyboards that has decreased during all these years, and it's not the quality of the human craftsmanship - it's the quality of everything. The world population has enormously increased, and so has the consumption rate. It's like the cake (i.e. natural resources) has kept the same dimensions, but now has to be split in more parts (consumers).


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#2914615 - 03/13/18 04:14 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: ZioGuido]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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With a 6 operator software FM synth on board is it possible to import FM patches? Or if you don’t want to open that to users. Could GSi add additional sound patches later? What patches have already been included? Any pads and strings?
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#2914622 - 03/13/18 05:01 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: ZioGuido]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ZioGuido
Originally Posted By: Al Coda

So you say, in the past when the electronic instruments were more reliable, the humans were less imperfect ?


You're comparing instruments made 30 years ago in Japan or other asian Countries to instruments made today by smaller Companies located in EU or US, I'm sorry but it's even worse than comparing apples and oranges.

I mentioned before that I hadn't seen a big difference between pre and post Y2K, and by that I meant both are a mix. I wasn't thinking about country of origin, but you may be right about Japanese gear being more reliable regardless of century. (And price wasn't the biggest variable, either. My problematic Memorymoog was a relatively pricey board then, and, adjusted for inflation, would be pretty astronomical today.)
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#2914627 - 03/13/18 05:30 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: ZioGuido]
Outkaster Offline
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Registered: 02/25/06
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Loc: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: ZioGuido
Originally Posted By: Al Coda

So you say, in the past when the electronic instruments were more reliable, the humans were less imperfect ?


You're comparing instruments made 30 years ago in Japan or other asian Countries to instruments made today by smaller Companies located in EU or US, I'm sorry but it's even worse than comparing apples and oranges.

1. What was the cost of a brand new DX7 in 1983 and what was the average income in the same year? You needed to sum 6 monthly salaries to afford a DX7.

2. What was (and still is) the average cost of an asian worker? It was (and still is) at least 1/4 of an average western worker.

I'm not going further because these two aspects alone should be more than enough to help you understand the difference between now and then, and between here and there.

But there's more: instruments are made by several parts including wood, iron, aluminium, wirings, plus the circuit boards and the silicon components. Well, let's take the wood alone, can you imagine how the new anti-pollution international regulations have affected the quality of a single piece of wood? And what about the non recyclable parts such as the printed circuit boards or the "lead free" and "ROHS" solder tin? Shall I continune? What about the lead-less paint? And what about the lack of copper on the planet that causes many electric wire manufacturers to replace the copper wires with copper-plated aluminium-core wires? And what about the freight from Asia to western Countries? Is it cheaper now than 30 years ago? No.

It's not the quality of our keyboards that has decreased during all these years, and it's not the quality of the human craftsmanship, it's the quality of everything. The world population is enormously increased, so have the consumptions. It's like the cake (i.e. natural resources) has kept the same dimensions but now has to be split in more parts (consumers).



Non preoccuparti, continua a fare quello che stai facendo. La gente si lamenterà sempre
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#2914631 - 03/13/18 05:47 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Outkaster]
Joe Muscara Offline
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Originally Posted By: Outkaster
Originally Posted By: ZioGuido
You're comparing instruments made 30 years ago in Japan or other asian Countries to instruments made today by smaller Companies located in EU or US, I'm sorry but it's even worse than comparing apples and oranges.


Non preoccuparti, continua a fare quello che stai facendo. La gente si lamenterà sempre
Questo. wink
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#2914635 - 03/13/18 06:51 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Joe Muscara]
John Lee Offline
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Registered: 02/20/15
Posts: 48
Loc: Croydon, UK
I know people hear things differently but I listened to the acoustic piano audio demos on the Crumar site and thought they sounded great.

And if you consider that EPs were supposed to be the main focus and the modelled acoustic piano is a 'bonus', well that's some bonus!

I know there's a few folk here who don't get the appeal but I'm seriously thinking about getting a Seven. I gigged my Wurli for a couple of years and the main things that stopped me in the end were the reliability and the weight.

I had a few occasions where I switched on at a gig and one of the reeds had moved in transit so I got a horrible distorted sound on one note (usually a pretty important one!).

Looking at the specs, the Seven with the legs and cover is getting pretty close to the weight of a Wurli but, the way I see it, you wouldn't necessarily need to bring the cover with you if you put it in another case. So then you're talking about 18.5kg (piano and legs) which is comparable to something like the Korg SV1 because with that you'd need to bring an extra stand - and I don't think there are many stands that are lighter than the 3.5kg for the Seven legs.

But the things I loved about using the Wurli were the sound, the feel of the weighted keys and having somewhere to put my Electro 2 without using some fugly 2 tier keyboard stand. I think the Seven would tick those boxes and add in a whole load of other sounds to boot. For starters, it could do the acoustic piano and vibe parts I'm miming on the Wurli on this track!: https://youtu.be/ga8vZtJ0bNo

Cheers

John



Edited by John Lee (03/13/18 06:53 AM)
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#2914642 - 03/13/18 07:28 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: John Lee]
kenheeter Offline
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Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 208
I can think of many of my gigs where the combination of the Seven and my Mojo 61 would be perfect! I'm very much looking forward to getting my hands on one of these!

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#2914678 - 03/13/18 10:28 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Aussie_Chicago]
Garubi Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 61
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: Aussie_Chicago
Remember, most of us live in areas where rhodes or wurlies are pretty easy to come by , in many areas of the world, these instruments are not easilly accessible , as well as techs to work on them.
If you notice, a lot of effort has gone into creating clonewheels, its not co-incidence that most of these companys are european based , its not easy to go buy a B3 like it is here in the States . Im thinking this theory also applies to the Seven.

I quote! wink

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