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#2914336 - 03/11/18 03:11 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Jazz+]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Registered: 10/19/09
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
I like vibes because I love jazz and I like to conjure up the greats:, it’s all about blowing single note right hand lines like a horn line and vibes will do it. Not a dx7 or a transitor organ.

Organ- Jimmy Smith
Rhodes - Herbie Hancock
Piano - Wynton Kelly
Vibes - Milt Jackson

Those are your key sounds because you're a jazz player, I get it. If you were playing pop, a DX7 or transistor organ would probably be more useful than vibes. But also, 3 of your 4 sounds are actually keyboard instruments (as are DX7 and transistor organ, and for that matter, all kinds of other useful sounds like accordion, synth brass, mellotrons, clavinet, etc.). Once you open up a keyboard to cover non-keyboard sounds, you might want vibes, someone else might want harmonica, someone else might want violin/fiddle, depending on the genre they're into. It's all good, but there's nothing magic about vibes being THE correct fourth sound to have. (BTW, if you're trying to have the impact of a horn line, the Gemini module has a really nice trumpet!)
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#2914356 - 03/11/18 05:50 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: AnotherScott]
CowboyNQ Offline
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Registered: 06/14/15
Posts: 893
Loc: Adelaide, Australia
[Disclaimer: I'm a SV-1 user and endorser]

I'm really baffled by the comparison of the Seven to the SV-1. Yes they both emulate vintage EP's as a primary function, but it's like comparing this year's BMW X-5 to my 2009 Mitsubishi Pajero (which I love by the way).

In Australia a Mojo 61 dual manual will set me back somewhere around $3200-$3500. I'm guessing the Seven will be similarly priced, or maybe slightly more expensive?

An 88 Key SV-1 is $2599 at my local shop. The 73 key version is $2199.

To those arguing that the Seven is "better" than the SV-1: You'd want to hope so!

I'm aligned with those who believe the Grandstage is a more realistic comparison. A 73 key version of that 'board costs approximately $3500 here.

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#2914358 - 03/11/18 05:59 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: CowboyNQ]
David Loving Offline
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I'm sure the Seven is very fine. I'm sticking with my 73 key SV-1, my perfect gig board.
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#2914362 - 03/11/18 06:52 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Dave Bryce]
jahfume Offline
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Registered: 11/20/12
Posts: 50
Loc: Oxon

Regarding the wooden case (or in this case THE case) instead of the edges being a sharp 90 degree angle it would be sleeker to make them slightly curved. May-be with a 15mm radius.

Would give it more of a Wurlie vibe - less coffin like. And when totted around would be more able to stand up to the inevitable bangs and bashes.

I can see this may make applying the tolex more difficult if done on all edges - but it could be done on just the four long - lateral edges.

Oh ,and BLACK annodised corner protectors.

Sorry for thinking out loud but I'm a picture framer and I know all about arrises!

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#2914367 - 03/11/18 07:52 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: jahfume]
Jazz+ Offline
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Registered: 05/15/04
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Vibes are classified as a “keyboard percussion” instrument. They are easy to simulate with sampling or modeling, far easier than a piano. They work well for soloing in jazz performance. It seems to me that many Keyboard players don’t realize that.

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#2914368 - 03/11/18 08:05 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
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For 20 years I have used 3 sounds at my gigs: Rhodes, Vibes , and Piano in that order. The Piano has always been the least convincing, it’s the hardest to get right. Now I have added an acceptable jazz organ with Crumar’s excellent Mojo 61 , which has a great Rhodes sim.
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#2914379 - 03/11/18 08:41 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Jazz+]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Vibes are classified as a “keyboard percussion” instrument.

Sure, and you can call a piano a percussion instrument too, but vibes are not played from keyboards.

Originally Posted By: Jazz+
They are easy to simulate with sampling or modeling, far easier than a piano. They work well for soloing in jazz performance.

Okay, and there are many keyboards with vibes sounds, so at least it's not a hard thing to find.

Originally Posted By: Jazz+
It seems to me that many Keyboard players don’t realize that.

I wonder if it can also be more of a "purist" thing. That is, a jazz keys player might be able to do some really nice work with a vibes sound, or a flute sound, or a guitar sound, but some may feel (or think their audience may feel) that, in the context of the music they're doing, these sounds are best produced by vibes, flute, or guitar players, and it's more "authentic" (or has greater "integrity") if they stick to things like piano, rhodes, and hammond sounds, and leave other instrument sounds to the players who genuinely play those instruments. (But okay, I guess we're getting way OT here. Maybe best for another thread, if people think it's interesting.)
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#2914380 - 03/11/18 09:09 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: AnotherScott]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Loc: USA, greater NY area
Just had opportunity to listen to the acoustic piano modeling engine in the Seven on the Crumar product page (Chopin Demos).
http://www.crumar.it/?a=showproduct&b=36

It’s just not very good. Especially when compared with the success they are clearly having with the electro mechanical modeling in this instrument. The 9th engine is sample playback. The question is how much storage they have on this incarnation of the Gemini hardware. What samples from their collection will they be including and can they do a great acoustic piano if enough customers bitch about it? If you really want to get this board, Jazz+, ask them for a great vibes preset too, fingered upright bass and fingered Fender P through an Ampeg as well. smile You never know until you ask.

I’d ask for user sample support in sf2 format on all their Gemini based products since the storage is there and it would make up for any niche things like vibes. The Dexibell module has storage space for user samples in sf2.



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#2914403 - 03/12/18 03:53 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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Isn't it really going to be the case that if your gig is so 'EP-centric', most players will prefer to use the real thing anyway, both for feel and authenticity?

Sure, lifting and moving a Rhodes or Wurli is a two person job but it's not the same level of challenge as bringing along a Steinway. And there's still a reasonable second hand supply of vintage instruments in decent condition to feed the fairly modest size of that market.
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#2914408 - 03/12/18 04:27 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Aidan]
Gary75 Offline
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Wurli is definitely a one person job Aidan, you can put it under your arm. it's not heavy.
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#2914409 - 03/12/18 04:34 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Gary75]
kenheeter Offline
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Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 208
Looks like the Seven is about the same weight as a Wurly 200.

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#2914410 - 03/12/18 04:35 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Gary75]
Aidan Offline
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Never had the pleasure, Gary, but there you go... smile
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#2914412 - 03/12/18 05:05 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Aidan]
teashea Offline
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Registered: 06/24/17
Posts: 196
The Seven is very limited in functionality. I can see how it would fit in with a Mojo as a second keyboard. I do not know why they chose to issue it with such limitations - compared with the competition.
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#2914415 - 03/12/18 05:11 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: teashea]
M_G Offline
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Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 545
Loc: Germany

The Korg Grandstage 73 or the Kurzweil Forte 7
are fantastic sounding "E-Pianos" !
(and for me the benchmark)

The Seven seems not be my cup of tea:
- heavy
- ugly
- TP100
- ...

But it's all very subjective, I know.....
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#2914422 - 03/12/18 05:28 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: M_G]
Keybass Offline
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Registered: 06/23/03
Posts: 469
At first blush I was very excited by the form factor of the Seven. But upon hearing the poor quality of both the Acoustic Piano and the Electric grand I am astonished they chose to bring it to market as is. At a price point well north of 2k one would think that more thought and development would go into such a foundational sound as the acoustic piano.

The processed EP's sound good but other then the looks and the flat top I see no reason to give up my Yamaha CP-5. It has excellent AP+EP sounds, drums, wooden keys and a ton of other useful tones that I enjoy.
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#2914424 - 03/12/18 05:45 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Keybass]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 957
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
38-ish lbs (seven without lid) is HARDLY COMPARABLE to a Wurly in weight
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#2914425 - 03/12/18 05:47 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Aidan]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Aidan
Isn't it really going to be the case that if your gig is so 'EP-centric', most players will prefer to use the real thing anyway, both for feel and authenticity?...there's still a reasonable second hand supply of vintage instruments in decent condition to feed the fairly modest size of that market.

For some, perhaps. But two things come to mind: One is that there's a difference between EP-centric and EP-exclusive, many may find value in having some other sounds (or even, for that matter, a greater variety of EP sounds); and another is that I'm not sure how easy they really are to find. Condition and feel are all over the place, you'd certainly want to try it before buying, and esp. if you don't live in a major metro area, I don't know how easy they are to find. Heck, I just checked NYC Craiglsit, and there are only two, plus one for parts. Also, it would be nice to not have to worry about any kind of maintenance.

You could almost say the same thing about bringing a 2-manual clonewheel vs. a genuine Hammond chop, too.

ETA - coincidentally, at almost the exact same time I was typing that, GRollins posted in an entirely different context/thread: "I agree with the search-for-used option, but that's pretty much a crap shoot. You never know what's going to be available at any given time or what condition it will be in." ;-)


Edited by AnotherScott (03/12/18 06:14 AM)
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#2914429 - 03/12/18 06:11 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: AnotherScott]
kenheeter Offline
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Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 208
From the Wurlitzer manual: Weight minus legs and sustain pedal - 56 lb.

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#2914430 - 03/12/18 06:23 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: kenheeter]
Gary75 Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 1565
Don't get me wrong, Wurlitzers are fairly hefty, but it's in a small package, there isn't another two octaves and possibly a control interface to the side to add to the hassle of moving it. You can quite comfortably pick it up length ways as well as front to back. You'd not want to lift it upstairs too often. My old KeyB Duo weighed 25 kg and I couldn't do anything with it on my own.
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#2914431 - 03/12/18 06:40 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Gary75]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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Scott, I certainly take your point on the maintenance thing (much as I would like a Rhodes/Wurli for the studio, my lack of practical skills is one thing which has put me off that idea) – and the Hammond comparison, to some extent.

But there are lots of other boards around – many of them lighter and cheaper – which offer a wide range of great electro mechanical sounds but also offer so much more. My CP4, for example, has models of 1971, 73, 75 and 78 Rhodes, plus a Dyno, all of which are pretty good and can be quite deeply edited to suit your taste. But it also has three really good piano samples and more.

I'm sure there will be people for whom the Seven is a fit, but overall I see it as a pretty narrow market, sitting between two extremes – the absolute purist (who will buy, maintain and gig the real thing, usually with crew) and the workaday road warrior who needs a board that will do most things pretty well.
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#2914437 - 03/12/18 07:12 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Aidan]
Adan Offline
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My current funk band is typical of much of the bandwork I've done in that, while I might need some AP sounds, they don't have to be particularly convincing. Think of the piano riffs in James Brown's Sex Machine. The AP sounds on the Seven are more than good enough for that sort of thing.

Rhodes, clavs, and wurlies, on the other hand, should be as convincing as possible. And that's pretty much all I need from a bottom keyboard.

So I would seriously consider getting a Seven, if I didn't already have a Grandstage. Even so, it's still possible. I may take a page from Teashea's book and just buy every keyboard that catches my fancy.

I agree it seems to be a niche keyboard. If that's true, then I'd say we're lucky there's still companies willing to take a chance on producing a niche instrument. A world in which every keyboard player plays a CP4 (as great as they are), is not a world I would enjoy as much.
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#2914442 - 03/12/18 07:50 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Adan]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 957
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
The one thing that seems to be glossed over in these discussions is how attack, decay, sustain and release components occur in the original instruments and how they are dealt with in the emulations.
It seems to me sample based engine get attack and initial decay right bur they suck on the subsequent Sustain and release factors.
The Gemini and Mojo engines seem to do a goos job on all parts of ADSR. I expect the Seven to behave similarly.
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#2914448 - 03/12/18 08:19 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: jimkost2002]
ABECK Offline
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Would look very nice with an analog/VA sitting on top...maybe a laptop with Mainstage, or a bunch of pedals. Could be a cool centerpiece for the right gig. In my mind, I look very hip playing this on stage, indeed!!

Yes, the piano and CP need some work. But, my Rhodes never did a convincing AP either wink

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#2914450 - 03/12/18 08:33 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: ABECK]
Nadroj Offline
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Registered: 08/19/13
Posts: 1112
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Quote:
my Rhodes never did a convincing AP either wink


Hah, spot on. It's a rhodes orientated keyboard with piano added in as a little extra. It was good enough of them to throw it in in case anyone happens to need it.

This thread is starting to look like a gearsluz.com thread - 2 pages of hype and 4 pages of moaning and bitching before the thing is even released.


Edited by Nadroj (03/12/18 08:34 AM)
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#2914451 - 03/12/18 08:35 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: ABECK]
drawback Online   happy
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Originally Posted By: ABECK
Would look very nice with an analog/VA sitting on top...maybe a laptop with Mainstage, or a bunch of pedals. Could be a cool centerpiece for the right gig. In my mind, I look very hip playing this on stage, indeed!!

Yes, the piano and CP need some work. But, my Rhodes never did a convincing AP either wink



Yeah, like every time I hit a note hard I get this barking, overdriven sound laugh
What’s up with that wink

I’m liking the overall design and retro industrial vibe of Seven. I’d need to work with the editor to shape the AP more to my liking, and it appears there’s a broad range of adjustments available.

That said, if that modeled piano ever finds its way into the Mojo61, that would be pretty much all I’d want - other than adding the bottom few keys for the Clavinet poke
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#2914454 - 03/12/18 08:39 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: ABECK]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Registered: 10/19/09
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Originally Posted By: ABECK
Would look very nice with an analog/VA sitting on top...

Sure... contrary to what you might guess from reading this board, not everyone needs a clonewheel in their rig!
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#2914456 - 03/12/18 08:56 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Nadroj]
Happy Birthday davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nadroj
Hah, spot on. It's a rhodes orientated keyboard with piano added in as a little extra. It was good enough of them to throw it in in case anyone happens to need it.

This thread is starting to look like a gearsluz.com thread - 2 pages of hype and 4 pages of moaning and bitching before the thing is even released.


Some things never change.
Back in 1991 I was in music retail when the Roland JD 800 was released. 100 sliders (OK, I'm exaggerating to make a point) on the thing for sculpting sounds and the first question was always "How does the piano sound?" facepalm
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#2914457 - 03/12/18 08:59 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Mitch Towne]
Al Coda Offline
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Registered: 08/31/08
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Originally Posted By: Mitch Towne

... craftsmanship ...
... Korg's notoriously unfixable RH3 keybeds ...
... the crashing issues in the Hammond XK5 ...
....the various issues coming out about the Viscount Legend ...

... Every brand has its bugs...


I agree but it shouldn´t be like it is !!!


Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce


... the PC88 ... didn't have a bar in it to reinforce the structural integrity because they wanted it to weight as little as possible? Those things broke like mad.

... I went through six PC3s in 2008 before I got one that worked correctly. The one I have now still makes an odd noise under the right circumstances. rolleyes

I remember taking my Electro 2 in for service the second time over ten years ago and asking if I had just gotten unlucky and had a lemon. The tech at Audio Rehab said he was making money hand over fist fixing those. idk


It´s a mistake customers accept craftmanship-/ build quality and reliability isses by whatever reasons ever.

A customer don´t has to care for a manufacturer´s problems at all.
There´s always something, may it be lack of manpower, bad designers vs excellent ones, human error, problems the supplying industry causes, lack of funds, exaggerated thrift (probably caused by meanness or greed) and so on ...
ALL business risk !

We customers pay and we want reliable gear, working NOW as it should and not in 3 years when the already extended warranty even for online sales already expired while there are still software bugs in the firmware/OS !

IMO, manufacturers release products too early much too often, probably by pressure of the marketing department (and CEO), taking the humbleness and patience of the majority of the customers as a given.
I call that arrogant manners.

Meanwhile, before I decide for a purchase, I wait ´til the product is outdated already and developement stopped, just only to see what I´ll finally get and decide if I can live w/ it or pass.

I´d never send 5 items back to be only halfway satisfied with the 6th ! NEVER !

O.k.,- back to the "Seven".

For myself, it´s too expensive for what it does.
For that money I want (MIDI-) multi-timbrality.
I also don´t need the legs because I prefer standing position over sitting as also I hate buying tinker toys USB MIDI adapters compensating for lack of physical MIDI-In.
They better had dropped illuminated encoders and logo for non-illuminated ones and invested in the MIDI-In.
WiFi editing is also not my cup of tea.
I always see the need investing in a WiFi communication device for that purpose, in the end increasing the total investment.
When I´d decide for a new DP I´d probably go w/ a RD-2000 or put some bucks on top for a Kurzweil Forte 7.

A.C.

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#2914467 - 03/12/18 09:40 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Al Coda]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Al Coda
I agree but it shouldn´t be like it is !!!
...
it´s a mistake customers accept craftmanship-/ build quality and reliability isses by whatever reasons ever.

A customer don´t has to care for a manufacturer´s problems at all.
There´s always something, may it be lack of manpower, bad designers vs excellent ones, human error, problems the supplying industry causes, lack of funds, exaggerated thrift (probably caused by meanness or greed) and so on ...
...
We customers pay and we want reliable gear, working NOW

We are also dealing with the fact that humans are simply imperfect. Whatever it is you do for a living, you've probably screwed up on occasion, too. ;-)

Originally Posted By: Al Coda
For myself, it´s too expensive for what it does.
For that money I want (MIDI-) multi-timbrality.

That's not a matter of too expensive, that's a matter of wrong tool for the job. You might as well make the same complaint about a Minimoog. Or a Steinway.

Compared to many other boards in its $2400 price range, obviously it's not competing on breadth of features/functionality. It's looking to compete on some combination of sound, feel, ergonomics, and aesthetics. We'll just have to see what happens when the EP afficandos get their hands on it.


Edited by AnotherScott (03/12/18 02:29 PM)
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#2914469 - 03/12/18 09:43 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Al Coda]
Mitch Towne Offline
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Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 1025
If you have a smart phone, then you already have that device. I guess if you’re still rocking a flip phone...

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