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#2921669 - 04/16/18 08:28 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: drawback]
drawback Offline
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Originally Posted By: drawback
Has anyone with a Seven worked on their AP with the Editor? When I look at the possibilities available Manual P32-33 I don’t understand how it couldn’t be shaped to anyone’s satisfaction.


I’d like to add that there’s never been an instrument I’ve owned that I’ve been completely satisfied with out of the box. The potential has to be there in the first place, but before I buy anything I check out how editable & versatile it is. Seven ticks all the boxes.
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#2921681 - 04/16/18 09:04 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: MojoGuyPan]
jeffinpghpa Offline
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Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
And no, I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid. If I is was I'd be playing a....Forte with a Legend Live running through a Ventilator .... That's the Kool-Aid Man's rig.


I went with your "Kool-Aid Man's rig" with a Forte + Legend Live and even without the Ventilator, Crumar comes up way short of Forte in the stage piano category, in which the only area where it is competitive is in the Rhodes and Wurly sounds, although I think playing the Scarbee Rhodes set or event the Weisersounds and Purgatory Creek sounds on a TP/40 action in the Forte Flash RAM eats the playing experience of the TP/100 Seven for breakfast. I think the Mojo has the C/V done very well, but I'll otherwise take the Legend Live over Crumar any time.

Not sure why buying better quality instruments makes somebody the "Kool Aid Man", but I'm sure you will look cool onstage with it. Just not as cool as being onstage with a Fender Rhodes Mk1 Stage 73.
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#2921688 - 04/16/18 09:19 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: jeffinpghpa]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: jeffinpghpa
I'm sure you will look cool onstage with it. Just not as cool as being onstage with a Fender Rhodes Mk1 Stage 73.

Aesthetics are part of the equation, more so for some than others. But a Seven on stage looks a whole lot more like a Mk1 than a Forte does. I don't know whether anyone in the audience cares, but there are players who take their portable rig and "hide" the boards in a cabinet that looks like it could be a classic Hammond (one of Jethro Tull's keyboardIsts used to do that). I recently saw a Steely Dan cover band, where the guy played Rhodes sounds for a good 90% of the show (an occasional acoustic piano or organ sound). He was using a Roland RD700NX or similar, and I did think how much cooler and more "authentic to the material" his presentation would be if he were playing the Seven. Though he wouldn't have had the organ sound for the one or two songs he used it. ;-)
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#2921696 - 04/16/18 09:55 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: AnotherScott]
Adan Offline
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Most keyboard rigs are just plain ugly, especially any two-tiered thing. I think we train ourselves to believe that this doesn't matter, and that what really matters is whether your keyboard achieves 98% authenticity with an actual Rhodes, as opposed to the 93% of the keyboard you used to own, etc.

I'm inclined to think we as keyboardists tend to have too much of a cognitive bias in that direction, that is, we place too much emphasis on what the recorded track will sound like and tend to discount too much how our visual presentation affects what the audience is experiencing in the moment.

I recently saw Maceo Parker and his longtime keys guy was playing backlined rig of a Nord Stage over a Yamaha workstation thing. Of course he could wring great sounds out of it -- dude is a monster -- but for me it was not the same as seeing him behind a real Hammond, and I think the audience felt the same way though maybe they would have a harder time articulating it.

Of course it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. A rig can look elegant and still get you into the high 90th percentiles of whatever your ideal rig should sound like. For me, as time goes by, I feel more disinclined to have a keyboard rig that's just a couple tiered slabs.

This is one reason why I'm gravitating towards giging with my Prologe atop my Mojo using the Tonysounds mod'ed onstage stand. It's got a certain compact elegance to it.


Edited by Adan (04/16/18 09:57 AM)
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#2921704 - 04/16/18 10:11 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Adan]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Adan
I'm inclined to think we as keyboardists tend to have too much of a cognitive bias in that direction, that is, we place too much emphasis on what the recorded track will sound like and tend to discount too much how our visual presentation affects what the audience is experiencing in the moment.

I recently saw Maceo Parker and his longtime keys guy was playing backlined rig of a Nord Stage over a Yamaha workstation thing. Of course he could wring great sounds out of it -- dude is a monster -- but for me it was not the same as seeing him behind a real Hammond, and I think the audience felt the same way though maybe they would have a harder time articulating it.

Yes, it's a really interesting question. Visuals matter, but even sound aside, I really do wonder how many non-musicians in the audience will experience the show in a more positive way if you're playing a B3 than if you're playing a Nord or a VR-09 or whatever on an X-stand. There are definitely some non-players who are really into the music and know the gear, but what percentage of the audience is this? Does it help if the stuff merely looks "vintage" rather than modern, regardless of someone's knowledge/understanding of the actual gear? Or if it simply looks more "substantial"? Or for most people, does none of it make a whit of difference? Does it matter more if the keyboard player is also doing lead vocals (and so is more a visual focus of the band than usual)?
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#2921707 - 04/16/18 10:40 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: AnotherScott]
drawback Offline
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I did a show once where someone asked "what was that clarinet thing?" I was playing a Melodica.

I think most non-players know what a B3 looks like but need that visual cue to tell them the sound of the music, and the musician, could be authentic.

When Guido, Andrea and the folks at Crumar design their products, aesthetics are a huge factor. As I posted early on, Seven looks like a musical instrument. I can't say that about most boards these days, and as great as Forte7 or Nords sound, thinking of them as musical instruments, in my mind anyway, is a stretch.
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#2921713 - 04/16/18 10:54 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: AnotherScott]
Adan Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Does it help if the stuff merely looks "vintage" rather than modern, regardless of someone's knowledge/understanding of the actual gear? Or if it simply looks more "substantial"? Or for most people, does none of it make a whit of difference?


Absent some kind of controlled study that will never happen, we can only speculate, and it's difficult for us to speculate objectively because we bring our bias of knowing too much. But I don't think it's a stretch to believe that the Benmont Tench's full-on vintage rig added something to the audience's enjoyment. This all goes to the question of, if the end goal is entertaining the audience, is there some tangible worth in rig that achieves some degree of visual elegance by sitting a keyboard on top of a Seven? I think so. Maybe it's not huge, but it's not zero.
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#2921714 - 04/16/18 10:55 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: MojoGuyPan]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
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Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
Quote:
that was the modeled piano.


Max's video here of the modeled piano sounds much better than the demos posted a few weeks ago. Now they sound legit. Now there is no reason for anyone to hesitate on dropping the coin for the Seven.

And no, I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid. If I is was I'd be playing a Casio PX5 or Forte with a Legend Live running through a Ventilator amped up by a Spacestation. That's the Kool-Aid Man's rig.


And a couple lounsberry pedals, those are needed to make the most "authentic" organs sound more "authentic"!
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#2921762 - 04/16/18 02:41 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: MojoGuyPan]
zoooombiex Offline
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Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
Crumar v. Nord EPs is no contest. Crumar houses the Nord. The SV-1 is better than the Nord. As a package the Nord Electro is solid but the EP's are not it's strong suit. Jack of all trades and all that.





Just kidding. But not really. I came out the other way on the non-contest.

Not trashing Mojo's EP's. But you say it like it's a thing.

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#2921771 - 04/16/18 03:04 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: zoooombiex]
MojoGuyPan Offline
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Registered: 07/30/08
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Loc: Mainland Florida
Adan's absolutely right about the way boards look on stage. I hadn't really thought about it but it affects my enjoyment of the music. I see a lot of jazz and when someone plays a real piano, a Rhodes or a B3 there is a certain amount of gravitas there.

A few times I went to jazz clubs and cats in a quartet were playing something like a Montage on an X-stand and it just flat out looked stupid. They had a Yamaha baby grand in back of them but they played this dinky board on an X-stand.

The dudes could play and I know they were using it to mix up the sounds they'd play EP on some tunes and strings on others but to stick with the Montage for APs was sad when you've got the real thing right next to you. The whole show I'm thinking the dude should've left his board in the car and just played the baby rand all night, screw the other sounds.

It's so true. When I see videos of the band playing and I've got the two tiered X-stand I cringe. It just looks retarded. I've played a lot of restaurants with a stage piano and have seen the photos. It's like being caught riding a moped.


Edited by MojoGuyPan (04/16/18 03:05 PM)

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#2921803 - 04/16/18 06:50 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: MojoGuyPan]
jeffinpghpa Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 484
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
A few times I went to jazz clubs and cats in a quartet were playing something like a Montage on an X-stand and it just flat out looked stupid.


I saw Chick Corea doing this. He didn't look stupid.
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#2921806 - 04/16/18 06:59 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: jeffinpghpa]
wd8dky Offline
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We saw Elton John back around ~1990, sitting at a Roland DP of some sort, front and center on the stage in front of his usual band. It was NOT in a piano shell, just on a stand. I didn't hear anyone complaining (quite the opposite).

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#2921811 - 04/16/18 07:39 PM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: jeffinpghpa]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: jeffinpghpa
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
A few times I went to jazz clubs and cats in a quartet were playing something like a Montage on an X-stand and it just flat out looked stupid.


I saw Chick Corea doing this. He didn't look stupid.


Chick toured a Montage recently with Steve Gadd on drums. In this video one can see the Minimoog Voyager on an X stand over his Montage.
Stupid, stupid, stupid. roll

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#2921837 - 04/17/18 01:12 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: davedoerfler]
jeffinpghpa Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 484
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Originally Posted By: davedoerfler

Chick toured a Montage recently with Steve Gadd on drums. In this video one can see the Minimoog Voyager on an X stand over his Montage.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.


Well, I guess it's better for Chick Corea to "look stupid" than to play the "Kool Aid Man's Rig", I suppose.

Next I'm waiting for MojoGuyPan to tell us all how Herbie Hancock is a hack player for using a keytar in his show.
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#2921844 - 04/17/18 03:06 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: davedoerfler]
TomKittel Offline
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Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 577
Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
another Wurlitzer demo



Nice playing. But to my ears the Crumar Wurli doesn't sound overly authentic in this video.

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#2921849 - 04/17/18 04:34 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: davedoerfler]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
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Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
Originally Posted By: jeffinpghpa
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
A few times I went to jazz clubs and cats in a quartet were playing something like a Montage on an X-stand and it just flat out looked stupid.


I saw Chick Corea doing this. He didn't look stupid.


Chick toured a Montage recently with Steve Gadd on drums. In this video one can see the Minimoog Voyager on an X stand over his Montage.
Stupid, stupid, stupid. roll



Oh the humanity!
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#2921850 - 04/17/18 04:35 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: MojoGuyPan]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
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Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
A

A few times I went to jazz clubs and cats in a quartet were playing something like a Montage on an X-stand and it just flat out looked stupid. They had a Yamaha baby grand in back of them but they played this dinky board on an X-stand.


Maybe the piano was a piece of crap?
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#2921862 - 04/17/18 06:32 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: DanL]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: DanL
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
A

A few times I went to jazz clubs and cats in a quartet were playing something like a Montage on an X-stand and it just flat out looked stupid. They had a Yamaha baby grand in back of them but they played this dinky board on an X-stand.


Maybe the piano was a piece of crap?

Or not mic'd up, and so not suitable for electric ensemble playing?
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#2921864 - 04/17/18 06:47 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: DanL]
MojoGuyPan Offline
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The pianos were well maintained. These were at high end jazz clubs out here not dive bars.

Also was Corea really playing APs on the Montage? I saw him a couple years ago and he bounced back and forth between a real piano and the Motif but he only play EP on the Motif.

Same with Hancock, saw him last fall and he used his Kronos for synth sounds but played piano on his giant Fazioli. He didn't play AP's on his Kronos or through the keytar.

Okay so now you guys are drinking the X-stand Kool-Aid. I know you're not really. Why would we have that guy who built the B3 style shell for his boards, effects and power supplies. Why would Billy Joel and Elton John be playing digital pianos in grand shells. Why would there be a million anti-X-Stand threads here. Sven's probably got them tallied up somewhere. Why would Murphy Dunne cover his Rhodes in shag?

Let's stop be contrarian here. A slab on an X is visually weak. The Seven looks a hell of a lot better and more substantial than a Numa Stage on an X (my current anti Kool-Aid piano rig).

Weak aesthetics are why everyone thinks the guitarists are "cool" and the keyboard players are "nerds". It's fact. Back in the day, Jerry Lee Lewis and Thelonious Monk were cool, they played real pianos.

Do you really think Jerry Lee Lewis banging out Shaking on a Numa Nano on the Steve Allen Show would've had the same impact? or Monk having Basie stare him down from the back side of a Privia would've been as sweet. Let's get real. These tiny boards are playable and sound great but do nothing for our image.

I want to thank Guido for thinking not only of the sounds and playability but the style as well. The Mojo and 61 look really nice and the Seven is a homerun in the looks department. The dude's a genius.

I offer you this comparative visual, I think we all know which setup is cooler.




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#2921866 - 04/17/18 06:55 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: MojoGuyPan]
CowboyNQ Online   content
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Of course all this discussion about what makes an aesthetically pleasing keyboard rig hinges on the supposition that anyone actually looks at the keyboard player...


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#2921868 - 04/17/18 07:02 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: CowboyNQ]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: CowboyNQ
Of course all this discussion about what makes an aesthetically pleasing keyboard rig hinges on the supposition that anyone actually looks at the keyboard player...


Yup, which is why I mentioned it could matter more f the keyboard player is the singer!
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#2921870 - 04/17/18 07:10 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: AnotherScott]
jeffinpghpa Offline
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Jordan Rudess playing AP with a Kronos on an X-stand with a couple of other slabs on tiers didn't look stupid when I saw him.
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#2921873 - 04/17/18 07:27 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: jeffinpghpa]
Pigmeat Offline
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Mac doesn't look as cool behind a Nord. At least he's not standing.


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#2921875 - 04/17/18 07:40 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Pigmeat]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 889
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Mac would look cool behind ANY keyboard, and more imporatantly, SOUND GREAT behind anything!

As far as keyboard players looking not so great but still sounding amazing, look at some of the 77-82 keytar rigs of Jan Hammer when he was in his “rock god” phase.

(And I LOVE Jan’s artistry and innovations 71-77)
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#2921876 - 04/17/18 07:45 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: jimkost2002]
AnotherScott Offline
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The fact that someone can look cool behind an X-Stand doesn't mean everyone can look cool behind an X-stand. See: Keytars.
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#2921890 - 04/17/18 08:30 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: AnotherScott]
jeffinpghpa Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
The fact that someone can look cool behind an X-Stand doesn't mean everyone can look cool behind an X-stand. See: Keytars.


I'd still rather look stupid with an X-stand and my "Kool Aid Man" rig than play a TP/100 action.
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#2921892 - 04/17/18 08:36 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: jeffinpghpa]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Originally Posted By: jeffinpghpa
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
The fact that someone can look cool behind an X-Stand doesn't mean everyone can look cool behind an X-stand. See: Keytars.


I'd still rather look stupid with an X-stand and my "Kool Aid Man" rig than play a TP/100 action.


Hahaha!

Jeff, I hear you! I guess Pat Bianchi, Jim Alfredson and Akiko Tsuruga have “Kool-Aid Man” rigs, too!!

Lolololololol!
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#2921895 - 04/17/18 08:52 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: MojoGuyPan]
zoooombiex Offline
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Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: MojoGuyPan
Weak aesthetics are why everyone thinks the guitarists are "cool" and the keyboard players are "nerds". It's fact.


Can't tell if serious

But it's not fact

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#2921900 - 04/17/18 09:17 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: zoooombiex]
Josh Paxton Offline
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I'm moderately impressed that this thread took several pages longer to devolve into yet another rehash of the x-stand debate than I predicted it would once I saw what the Seven looked like.
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#2921906 - 04/17/18 09:39 AM Re: Crumar Seven [Re: Josh Paxton]
Spider76 Offline
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Registered: 08/01/13
Posts: 414
The problem is that the Seven has its own legs, so it took a while to sneak an X-stand into the topic.
rolleyes snax

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