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#2914702 - 03/13/18 01:10 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: I-missRichardTee]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
I am well aware of the option to treat every Dominant chord as its own little tone center...
...
But at the same time.. there is almost always one over riding key that holds all those smaller regions together; at least in Blues music. And I believe Dave said, Bb is that overriding key center!

I won't attempt to speak for Dave, but let's say that you choose not to use each dominant chord as its own little tone center, and instead look for a single key you could solo in that would work through almost the entire song, what would you play? Try this:

Here is a simple C blues riff: Start on high C, work down down to the Eb, then go back up. Keeping it simple, these are all eighth notes. Here are the notes...

C Bb G F# F Eb F G

Just keep playing it over and over, from the beginning of the song to the end... that C blues almost always works. (Basically, it sounds pretty good over everything except the F11, and the D7 that opens the bridge.) Can you find a Bb blues riff that works as well?

(BTW, I am bugged by the reference to an F11. I'd say Cm9/F but I could be hearing notes that aren't there so if you wanted to say it was a Cm7 or Cm or Ebmaj7 over that F, fine, I could go with it, they would all work, but there's definitely no A in it, and if you try to add one, it sounds awful, so it's not an F11 in my book.)

ETA: p.s. I'm not suggesting that, for a song to be in a given key, you need to be able to solo in that key for the bulk of the song; but I think if you *can* solo in a given key for most of the song, odds are good that the song is in that key.


Edited by AnotherScott (03/13/18 01:15 PM)
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#2914704 - 03/13/18 01:14 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: AnotherScott]
Reezekeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
(BTW, I am bugged by the reference to an F11. I'd say Cm9/F but I could be hearing notes that aren't there so if you wanted to say it was a Cm7 or Cm or Ebmaj7 over that F, fine, I could go with it, they would all work, but there's definitely no A in it, and if you try to add one, it sounds awful, so it's not an F11 in my book.)

By definition there's no A in an F11 chord.

I always write the "11" spelling, i.e., F11 rather than Eb/F. Why? It's simpler and gets the message across.

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#2914708 - 03/13/18 01:29 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: Reezekeys]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys

By definition there's no A in an F11 chord.

I always write the "11" spelling, i.e., F11 rather than Eb/F. Why? It's simpler and gets the message across.


I guess if that's convention in the jazz world, okay, though that leaves you without a way to describe such a chord if you do want the A.

(BTW, I could also see F7sus4 working here...)
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#2914711 - 03/13/18 01:38 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: Reezekeys]
zephonic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys

By definition there's no A in an F11 chord.

I always write the "11" spelling, i.e., F11 rather than Eb/F. Why? It's simpler and gets the message across.



That's not how I learned it. I have come to understand since that things here in the USA are a little different from what we learned back in Holland, but the way I was taught was that if it has a third, it's an 11, if the 4 replaces the third, it's a sus4.

I've seen charts here with F11 where the audio clearly indicates it is a sus4 chord, so I guess it is whatever works, but to this day I can't bring myself to calling something an 11 chord when there is no third present.
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#2914718 - 03/13/18 02:03 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: AnotherScott]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
I am well aware of the option to treat every Dominant chord as its own little tone center...
...
But at the same time.. there is almost always one over riding key that holds all those smaller regions together; at least in Blues music. And I believe Dave said, Bb is that overriding key center!

I won't attempt to speak for Dave, but let's say that you choose not to use each dominant chord as its own little tone center, and instead look for a single key you could solo in that would work through almost the entire song, what would you play? Try this:

Here is a simple C blues riff: Start on high C, work down down to the Eb, then go back up. Keeping it simple, these are all eighth notes. Here are the notes...

C Bb G F# F Eb F G

Just keep playing it over and over, from the beginning of the song to the end... that C blues almost always works. (Basically, it sounds pretty good over everything except the F11, and the D7 that opens the bridge.) Can you find a Bb blues riff that works as well?


That certainly works too. But like you said, not over the F11.

The reason I like to treat each chord has a separate tonal center on a tune like this, is you can play the Db on the Eb7 and make it even more bluesy sounding. Actually if phrased right and depending on the line, it could carry over the C7 as part of a b9 kinda thing.

This somewhat reminds me how I would treat a solo on the chorus of Boogie on reggae woman fwiw.

Regarding the third on 11th chords- On pop/RnB tunes like Rob said, I'll play (or think) an Eb/F but that doesn't mean I wouldn't play an A somewhere in a fill or solo.

In a Jazz context, let's just take the interlude Ab13 vamp on "in your own sweet way" for example - I'm certainly thinking extended 11th or 13th chords -Gb/Ab, GbMaj7/Ab - but I do use thirds in the voicing. It's gets more into modal territory in that type of context.


Edited by Dave Ferris (03/13/18 02:45 PM)
Edit Reason: added thought
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#2914719 - 03/13/18 02:08 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: Dave Ferris]
Reezekeys Offline
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To me it's just notational shorthand. "F11" = Eb/F, the "maiden voyage" chord, etc. Sure you can squeeze the 3rd in there somewhere. But when I see an "11" chord on a chart I will generally not play the 3rd because I assume the composer wants that nice open sound with the 4th/11th.

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#2914723 - 03/13/18 02:21 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: Reezekeys]
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What we have here is not a chord dominance problem. It's a forum member dominance problem. shocked
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#2914729 - 03/13/18 02:48 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: Reezekeys]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
To me it's just notational shorthand. "F11" = Eb/F, the "maiden voyage" chord, etc. Sure you can squeeze the 3rd in there somewhere. But when I see an "11" chord on a chart I will generally not play the 3rd because I assume the composer wants that nice open sound with the 4th/11th.


Yes, definitely on the head and early blowing choruses, I'd play triad over bass note. It's such a distinct sound associated with that tune.
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#2914731 - 03/13/18 03:04 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: Dave Ferris]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
That certainly works too. But like you said, not over the F11.

The reason I like to treat each chord has a separate tonal center on a tune like this

Yes, I was not suggesting that this was the best possible solo one could play by any means, just that a solo in C basically works, and better than a solo in Bb.


Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
To me it's just notational shorthand. "F11" = Eb/F, the "maiden voyage" chord, etc. Sure you can squeeze the 3rd in there somewhere. But when I see an "11" chord on a chart I will generally not play the 3rd because I assume the composer wants that nice open sound with the 4th/11th.


Yes, definitely on the head and early blowing choruses, I'd play triad over bass note. It's such a distinct sound associated with that tune.

I can understand notating an F11 and making the third optional. But in the tune in question, where playing the third would sound terrible, I would prefer to note it unambiguously. It's not a matter of it being optional, in this case the third simply does not belong. To me, you're not communicating that by calling it an F11 whereas you are by calling it a Cm7/F.
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#2914741 - 03/13/18 03:42 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: AnotherScott]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
To me it's just notational shorthand. "F11" = Eb/F, the "maiden voyage" chord, etc. Sure you can squeeze the 3rd in there somewhere. But when I see an "11" chord on a chart I will generally not play the 3rd because I assume the composer wants that nice open sound with the 4th/11th.


Yes, definitely on the head and early blowing choruses, I'd play triad over bass note. It's such a distinct sound associated with that tune.

I can understand notating an F11 and making the third optional. But in the tune in question, where playing the third would sound terrible, I would prefer to note in unambiguously. It's not a matter of it being optional, in this case the third simply does not belong. To me, you're not communicating that by calling it an F11 whereas you are by calling it a Cm7/F.


If you are talking about Maiden Voyage in particular. Most people that play it are very familiar with that triad over bass note sound and don't usually need anything more then that. Often that and maybe A Train or Satin Doll might be the first "jazz tune" someone might learn it's so common.

But yes I agree in other instances a Cm7/F is not the same sound as Eb/F. And might need to be noted like F11 no3rd. Similar in the way you see pop music noted D add2 --, which I normally initially leave out the 3rd until I hear the vibe of the tune and then I make a choice of whether to play the F# or not based on my discretion.
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#2914742 - 03/13/18 03:48 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: Dave Ferris]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
If you are talking about Maiden Voyage in particular

No, I was talking about using F11 to describe the chord in the Lou Rawls song, or in general, any time you absolutely do not want the 3rd to be played, regardless of whether the player has any familiarity with the song.
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#2914747 - 03/13/18 04:03 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: AnotherScott]
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Regarding the polarity between playing each secondary dominant ( if you accept the theory that Dominant refers to Fifth degree) in much of 20th century blues, r&b , jazz..
versus treating your solo as one key only.

My response is BOTH at the same time.

I find I am continually at odds with most , because I see both sides of something.. and can see how both ideas, whatever they may be, can operate at the same time.

David D Burns in his "Feeling Good" the new mood therapy ( Cognitive Therapy ) identifies all or nothing kind of thinking or dichotomous thinking . Like it's either feeling or thinking.. one or the other. Duh, no, not at all.

I am amazed and disheartened that more people do not quite get, that it's like the Tao
It is BOTH - several little momentary flirtations with secondary key centers but ALWAYS the essential key too.
Blues, has always been essentially a One key deal. But in its evolution, these little divergences into related keys can occur, but never ever, to the point of usurping the home key.

I will try the C major solo idea, AnotherScott

But I have an affection and awe about Blues. For instance , A C blues scale ( which ever one you choose ) fits over all 12 dominant thirteenth chords ( C E G Bb D A = C13 )

That fact amazes me. So if this is true.. perhaps there are multiple keys that would work. I am still biased towards that Eb9 as a IV chord, and the D7 as first chord in Rhythm Changes , but I will give C a try. My mind is open.



Edited by I-missRichardTee (03/13/18 04:13 PM)
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#2914751 - 03/13/18 04:12 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: AnotherScott]
Reezekeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
It's not a matter of it being optional, in this case the third simply does not belong. To me, you're not communicating that by calling it an F11 whereas you are by calling it a Cm7/F.

Interesting, I guess it all boils down to context but I've always felt that calling a chord an "11" is a pretty unambigous way to say "no third please."

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#2914752 - 03/13/18 04:14 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: Reezekeys]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
It's not a matter of it being optional, in this case the third simply does not belong. To me, you're not communicating that by calling it an F11 whereas you are by calling it a Cm7/F.

Interesting, I guess it all boils down to context but I've always felt that calling a chord an "11" is a pretty unambiguous way to say "no third please."


like and 100% agree.
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#2914755 - 03/13/18 04:17 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: I-missRichardTee]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
It's not a matter of it being optional, in this case the third simply does not belong. To me, you're not communicating that by calling it an F11 whereas you are by calling it a Cm7/F.

Interesting, I guess it all boils down to context but I've always felt that calling a chord an "11" is a pretty unambiguous way to say "no third please."


like and 100% agree.

Then how would you notate that chord if you wanted to indicate that a third would be perfectly acceptable if the player would like to include it?
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#2914758 - 03/13/18 04:29 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: AnotherScott]
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I was taught F11 is without third. My learning coincides perfectly with my experience reading music in real world bandstands.
F11 with 3 would be one way.
But by the time we get to that level of dissonance ( A sound I like, by the way ) I am guessing major 3 plus natural 4 ( F 11 add 3 = an A and a Bb ) voicing might require spelling out the voicing using staff.
Chord symbols are handy, but are imperfect when music starts getting more advanced.. and like "classical" music, requires note for note representation... a staff.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (03/13/18 04:30 PM)
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#2914760 - 03/13/18 04:39 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: I-missRichardTee]
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I also interpret F11 to be Eb/F, and I can tell you that as a chart-maker, I have tried lots of "shorthands" for that particular chord (one chord's harmony over the bass note a whole step higher) and have decided the most helpful way to write it is simply "Eb/F."
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#2914761 - 03/13/18 04:45 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: AnotherScott]
Reezekeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Then how would you notate that chord if you wanted to indicate that a third would be perfectly acceptable if the player would like to include it?

You mean how would I write the chord symbol? You got me there, I've never written a chart with a chord symbol where I needed to communicate that the chord could be voiced differently if the player "would like to." With a typical chart I write, I assume that whoever will be reading it is familiar reading lead sheets with chord symbols. I trust the person to play a voicing of their choice that works. In cases where I anticipate that a "typical" voicing might include a note I know I don't want, I spell that out, e.g., "Cmin9 omit 5th." If it's a chord whose specific voicing is important to the sound – I write out the notes. That's not often the case.

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#2914762 - 03/13/18 04:46 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: I-missRichardTee]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
I was taught F11 is without third. My learning coincides perfectly with my experience reading music in real world bandstands.
F11 with 3 would be one way.
But by the time we get to that level of dissonance ( A sound I like, by the way ) I am guessing major 3 plus natural 4 ( F 11 add 3 = an A and a Bb ) voicing might require spelling out the voicing using staff.
Chord symbols are handy, but are imperfect when music starts getting more advanced.. and like "classical" music, requires note for note representation... a staff.

This is not so complicated as to need a staff, if F11 includes (or at least permits) a third, and Cm7/F indicates no third, which is what basic music theory would seem to teach, as far as I recall it. So I'd say we already have perfectly good, easy ways to distinguish these things when reading a lead sheet, without getting into staff notation or odd shorthand. But if the jazz world doesn't see it that way, I'm sure I'm not gonna change it.

As I've said, I'm not a jazz guy. I'd never heard of Maiden Voyage until this thread. Though yeah, I've played A Train and Satin Doll, and In the Mood, and Well You Needn't, and probably a coupla' dozen others. Put a sheet in front of me, and I'll fake my way through it if I need to, and have actually gotten some compliments from jazz players in the process. But maybe the fact that I'll toss a third into an eleventh chord is how they know I'm a poser. ;-)
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#2914765 - 03/13/18 04:55 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: AnotherScott]
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AnotherScott.. I have consistently without exception enjoyed and profited from your threads.
This one is no exception.

What I and many of my generation were taught

Fm11 has a 3rd and an 11th because they are not overly dissonant

F 11+ ( I am not sure how to notate it here - but, "F augmented eleven " )
has a Third and an Eleventh , but and Augmented eleventh.
An A and a B

The F A C Eb G Bb however is a conflict with traditional music from previous centuries
a conflict with the dissonance and its resolution.
In previous century the Bb in the F chord, had to resolve ( resolution ) down a step to
A or Ab .
In the case of both Bb and A present at the same time.. it was not well viewed .
But of course rules were made to guide not force. So little by little F11 could be found with both A and Bb present.
But frankly, aside from the Music of jazz, I do not know of pop music that uses the A and the Bb at the same time = F A C Eb G Bb

Can you identify some tunes that use F11 this way?


Edited by I-missRichardTee (03/13/18 05:05 PM)
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#2914768 - 03/13/18 05:10 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: I-missRichardTee]
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Scott,

Jazz pianists read chord charts their whole lives. I kinda wish it wasn't the case. Put a grand staff arrangement in front of me and I'll start sweating. Not having a real piano where I lived meant not having any impetus to play classical music and keep any reading chops I had. I was always a bad reader but used to memorize 15-page Beethoven sonatas when I was a kid. In hindsight, my teacher should have discouraged this.

Anyway, as you probably know by now, Maiden Voyage is a famous song by Herbie Hancock that is almost all "11" chords. And is played by every jazzer on any instrument. That was a big record for Herbie pretty early in his career. And it came along when jazz players were moving away from the typical II-V-I cadences of GASB tunes. Having said that, many of the tunes we play are standards with pretty conventional harmony. 99% of the time you can spell them out simply and an experienced player will voice them as they see fit, maybe add a few extra chord tones, or even substitute a different chord. I've been playing a lot of the same songs for more years than I want to admit, so at this point I sometimes don't care what a chart has on it as far as what's "notated." It might say F11, and I could very well put the 3rd in. Sometimes even on purpose! smile

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#2914772 - 03/13/18 05:44 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: Reezekeys]
linwood Offline
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Here ya go T...I used 3 and 4 in a pop tune just today. bar 3 beat 1. it's my wife's b'day and I made brownie points by playin' happy birthday on her FB page. Went something like:

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#2914775 - 03/13/18 06:46 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: linwood]
Dave Ferris Offline
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^
And you guys thought I was out on those major thirds relating to the Augmented scale.. cry Music to my ears ! thu Happy Birthday to Linda !

Scott, I just saw the two quotes in reference to Maiden Voyage in your post, so I thought you were talking about that tune in particular.
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#2914777 - 03/13/18 07:15 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: Reezekeys]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Scott,

Jazz pianists read chord charts their whole lives. I kinda wish it wasn't the case. Put a grand staff arrangement in front of me and I'll start sweating. smile


Maybe to force an even further derail of the OP since I think we've about covered it all at this point. wink

There are some tunes I still need to read, or at least glance at for a chorus or two. Even after playing it for a long time.

Could be my brain is just too cluttered with stuff at this age. It doesn't help that I'm not playing 4-5 nights a week like in the past where everything seemed easier to store in the memory banks and then have instant recall.

I was a better sight reader even 5 years ago until the cataracts started interfering. Hope to get that rectified this year with the surgery.

But yeah ideally, you want to have a tune internalized. I read somewhere that Sonny Rollins used to set a timer and blow on the same tune for an hour straight. I've never gotten to 60 minutes on one tune, maybe 20.

Sightreading originals and arrangements are pretty much expected standard fare for the 21st century Jazz/improvising musician though. Arrangements can be more complex and often chords aren't spelled out 2 stave. So you as a pianist have to make that instant decision on chord choices, voicings and approach to the written harmony.

There's always the route of playing the same tunes. Miles, Joe Henderson, and to less extent, Bill Evans went that way.

Hank Jones had three notebooks, that were as thick as the NYC phonebook, that he played out of up until the end in his 90s. I'd sure like to have a gander at those notebooks. I wonder who the lucky player was who was bequeathed those pages of treasures.
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#2914795 - 03/13/18 08:47 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: Dave Ferris]
linwood Offline
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Thanks Dave! I'll be sure to pass it on to her. Man, am I stuffed. 4 generations over here tonight for a feast!

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#2914796 - 03/13/18 08:52 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: linwood]
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Originally Posted By: linwood
4 generations over here tonight for a feast!

OT now but wishing you and your family the best, Linwood. 4 generations. Wow. twothumbs cheers
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#2914797 - 03/13/18 08:53 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: davedoerfler]
linwood Offline
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Posts: 5248
Loc: Las Vegas,NV,UNITED STATES
Yeah, the bad news is I'm second from the top these days. lol Thanks brother!

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#2914799 - 03/13/18 09:10 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: linwood]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 7044
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: linwood
Here ya go T...I used 3 and 4 in a pop tune just today. bar 3 beat 1. it's my wife's b'day and I made brownie points by playin' happy birthday on her FB page. Went something like:


Took me a sec to get oriented... thanks
Question on measure 3 beat 1... how would I know which the root was?
Serious question.

I reached a point some years back where I started to see structures ( stacks of notes )
in multiple ways... as having potential for many different roots.
Frankly, at my age, and with work as slow as it it, and with emphasis on commerciality, the idea of pursuing this at the same time scary and exhilarating multi dimensional view point on chord structures, was abandoned by me..
As you may recall I started a thread about voicings ... but that was purely about a series of gigs.
It just blows me away that structures I normally associate one way, can go many other ways.

So, what IS the Root of third measure , first beat?

By definition in Major, 3 4 resolution involves two tones a half step ( E1 wave ) apart.
In your structure the intervals that meet that
are F and E ...... and Bb and A.
If Bb and A, then the root is F.
and if F and E the root is C.

Since the C is well above the F... I can assume F is the Root!!

That questionable conclusion about F as Root and not C, is based on reading a half understood book by Hindemith "The Craft of Musical Composition".

Edit
Just took a stab at playing Happy Birthday for Aliens grin

Very nice sounds... Even though I just railed against individual chords, versus a series of chords in a progression... I must say the 3rd measure 1st beat chord with the 3 and 4 is very beautiful. An airy other worldly sound. You must write for movies. love

One other point ( you just elaborated on.. thank you ) about the old taboo re 3 and 4 in the same structure ( I am sure there are places in the classical or baroque where 3 and 4 occur together )
You smartly separated the dissonance and weird resolution collision by putting the A above the Bb. Still dissonant, but in an ethereal way.

Writing this about 3- 4 in major... caused me to think "there are 3 ways to stack an A and a Bb, not 2 ways.... Minor 2nd Minor 9th and Major 7."
I hope someone here is appreciating this.. for the rest, thanks for your patience.






Edited by I-missRichardTee (03/13/18 09:37 PM)
_________________________
"Live and let live", at least for me, has always has been a meaningless platitude, that is, until Now. Live and LET LIVE.

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#2914800 - 03/13/18 09:28 PM Re: What's it called when the key signature is always C...? [Re: I-missRichardTee]
linwood Offline
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Registered: 09/11/00
Posts: 5248
Loc: Las Vegas,NV,UNITED STATES
C is root. It's voiced with 4ths in the bass and 5ths up top. The C is up an oct. You could play it C F Bb if you wanted. I just went with that shape to get the contrary motion thing...still 4ths. So in that voicing on bar 3 beat 1, 4 is on the bottom and 3 is on top.

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