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Coker

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So I was banging away on my SP4-7 today, and I was reminded how much richer and fuller the pianos are than even the CP4's. Particularly the Horowitz Grand -- it's bright and crisp, but full-bodied without being tinny. It's always been -- and still is -- my favorite digitally-reproduced AP, even with the inherent compromises of the older technology. But I also can't help but miss the extra richness that string resonance adds that the CP4 (and others) provide, which I know the SP6 also has. If the SP6 has something close to the Horowitz Grand of the SP4 series (which the above demo and others seem to suggest it does), tastefully incorporates string resonance, and has a decent action, I'm gonna be one happy hobbyist when I finally get my hands on one.

D-10; M50; SP4-7; SP6

I'm a fairly accomplished hack.

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If the SP6 has something close to the Horowitz Grand of the SP4 series (which the above demo and others seem to suggest it does), tastefully incorporates string resonance, and has a decent action, I'm gonna be one happy hobbyist when I finally get my hands on one.

Even if it's not already there, you should be able to load the Horowitz Grand PC3 (SP4) program into the SP6. However, I think the string resonances are specifically tied to the new sample sets, so you'd only get them on the SP6's updated pianos, so then yes, it would be a matter of finding (or creating) a patch that uses the new samples but still has the character of that Horowitz patch.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Some info that you might find surprising, that's helpful for context here: back when I was at Kurzweil, we received a TON of feedback from dealers and customers asking for FEWER patches, that 1000 was simply too much. I found the amount and consistency of this feedback to be shocking myself. Totally not in line with my own preferences as a player.

Yeah, I can understand that too, but I think that may largely comes down to implementation. If they're not well grouped and easily navigated, it can start turning into looking for a needle in a haystack (and it's going to be hard to present them well if you have limitations in screen size and/or available buttons). But this can actually makes the promotion of downloadable sounds an advantage in a different way. It's not merely a way to offer more sounds, it's also a way to more satisfyingly provide fewer sounds i.e. cherry picking to provide the most generally desirable sounds in the board itself (for the customer you're talking about) while still not actually eliminating access to the much larger library players like you and me would want. Everyone can be happy! And of course, this functionality is indeed there, it's just that most people don't know it (and it's not as straight-forward as it could be).

 

Of course I do think that the PC3 set should be available and in an obvious way. But it seems like the folks who really want it are few, and they have managed to get it. I've heard virtually zero complaints about it.

Well as I said, it's largely a secret, and people won't complain about what they don't know about. So SP4/Artis owners might not complain about the inability to locate downloadable PC3 sounds because most probably don't know that they can do it in the first place (it is not mentioned in the manuals, nor as a selling point on these products' web pages). Compare this to Nord who promotes additional sound loading as a significant feature (in their manuals and on their web site). Even if you just see an Electro on a showroom floor, there's a big sticker on top saying "Download for free! Get more great sounds at nordkeyboards.com".

 

But I think this also means that Kurz could be losing out on selling to these customers who would find this to be a desirable feature. i.e. If someone checks out the 8 string sounds on an SP4, or the 16 brass/wind sounds on an Artis/SP6, and he doesn't find what he's looking for, Kurz might lose a sale they possibly could have salvaged if they had promoted the fact many other string/brass/wind sounds are available via download. So that's a whole other reason you may not hear complaints... not only do people not complain about something they don't know they can do, but also, people who find the board's stock sounds inadequate are unlikely to buy the board in the first place, so obviously you'll never hear complaints from them! The population of SP4/Artis owners is largely self-selected to be people who are pretty content with the internal sound set, while potential sales to others were left on the table. If Kurz had promoted that capability, if their floor models had stickers that said many more sounds are available for free download, etc., some people who passed on them may have given them a closer look.And then maybe you'd have heard more complaints from them. ;-)

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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How to assign multis with 4 sounds in each layer to the 5 favorites buttons to be able to reach 20 patches you need quickly in a set or song.

That's great, it builds on what we saw in Jim's video earlier in the thread, where he was doing his sound selection with the Zone buttons. One thing though... When you select a 4-zone Multi as shown there, it would be really nice if you could set it so that the display were to automatically show which sounds were currently assigned to the four Zone buttons.

 

Also, getting back to something from earlier in the thread, you'd have quick access to even more than 20 sounds. As long as you're in Program mode (which may or may not require hitting one additional button), since you can define the default sound for each category, you also then have one-button access to your favorite Piano, EP, Clav, Organ, String/Pad, Brass/Wind, Voice, Lead/Synth, and Guitar/Bass sound.

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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  • 2 weeks later...
I'm hearing on this demo that the pianos would sound better in a band context - even Jazz Trio- then they do here playing solo.

 

To my ears, they impart less fullness and a lack of body then say what you can get on the Nord. I wouldn't know how the Electro HP action would compare with this though. I'd have to play them side by side. But the Kurz is at less then half the price. As a general rule the Kurzweil AP's were always 'present' sounding ... taking a bit of midrange out EQ wise always seemed to help them a bit.

 

With decent to good quality speakers, I think a lot of the thinness would be less pronounced over bass, drums and other instruments.

 

I had similar perceptions in regard to the SP-6 AP sounds Dave...I wanted to hear a bit more warmth and thickness...maybe EQ would help.

 

It does seem like they (AP's) would work in a band context better, at least these stock unedited AP sounds . . . I was a bit disappointed in the low end and I noticed in most of the videos the players stayed away from that part of the keyboard...probably just a coincidence ... but I could also imagine how this instrument will cut through well in a band mix.

 CP-50, YC 73,  FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122

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" But the Kurz is less than half the price"...

 

Yeah and sound quality to weight ratio is pretty good!

You can even use it to paddle your canoe if you get stuck up the Swanny. :crazy:

 

Chris morphs Steely Dan into Giant Steps...Chris Dont Lose That Number!

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Could someone tell me if additional sax and or flute voices are available for the SP6?

Yes. See the link Dave W. posted earlier, for downloading PC3 programs. The file contains a list of programs, you'll see numerous sax and flute programs there, like

 

423 Solo Flute

424 Tremolo Flute

425 Fast Orch Flute

4160 Soprano Sax

4161 Alto Sax

4162 Tenor Sax

4163 Baritone Sax

 

and others.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I'm not sure that I can provide meaningful comment on the Brass and Synth sounds compared to anything else because this is my first board with Brass and Synth sounds. Well I have the Arturia but I've spend even less time with that than the SP6.

 

At the moment I'm as happy as a pig in slop but when it comes to 'slop', I'm pretty ignorant.

 

The Kurzweil site has lots of audio demos for all of its boards so as well as the on on the SP6 you can install ones from the PC3 and Forte SE.

 

Kurzweil SP6 Audio

 

 

Kawai MP11, Kurzweil SP6, Arturia Keylab49
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Hi,

 

At http://ksetlist.com/ you can now download all the Forte SE factory programs to load into your SP6. Some will already be there on the SP6, some might not.

 

The list of Winds/Brass programs are:

 

Program [138] 1313 10352 MiamiBrassSects

Program [138] 1314 2664 High-End Horns

Program [138] 1315 6860 Sax Section

Program [138] 1316 3976 Lorde Bari Hits

Program [138] 1317 2356 Sax Splits+Flute

Program [138] 1318 1440 Sylvan Dbl Reeds

Program [138] 1319 2092 Clarinet

Program [138] 1320 2048 SoloBassoon&Oboe

Program [138] 1321 2112 BClar/Clar/Flute

Program [138] 1322 8120 Full Blown

Program [138] 1323 4940 Epic Low Brass

Program [138] 1324 1416 Lead Trumpet

Program [138] 1325 2048 Solo Trombone

Program [138] 1326 2052 Dyn Orch Fr Horns

Program [138] 1327 2064 Fruity Floot

Program [138] 1328 2696 Classic SynBrass

Program [138] 1329 2432 Solo Trbne/Trmpt

Program [138] 1330 1780 Almost Muted MW

Program [138] 1331 1380 Slow Soft Trp

Program [138] 1332 1376 Lead French Horn

Program [138] 1333 1648 Solo Tuba

Program [138] 1334 1648 Dyn Orch Tuba

Program [138] 1335 3704 Lucid Brass

Program [138] 1336 2372 Triumphant Horns

Program [138] 1337 6120 AcidJazzVelFlute

Program [138] 1338 1332 Fast Orch Flute

Program [138] 1339 1972 Piccolo

Program [138] 1340 1336 Solo Eng Hrn prs

Program [138] 1341 1704 Clarinet/Flute

Program [138] 1342 1060 Mellotron Flutes

Program [138] 1343 2400 Penny Whistle

Program [138] 1344 1744 Ocarina

 

Regards,

Fran

 

 

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So, just this afternoon I took delivery of a new SP6. It replaces a Korg SV-1. It was a real wrench letting that board go, but I wanted a little more sonic variety in my main keyboard. I was also a little tired of the Korg's quirky response at low velocities.

 

I've only spent a few minutes with the SP6, so these are really only initial thoughts and subject to revision.

 

Right from the start I noticed that I was getting a loud key "clacking" sound from an octave and a bit in the lower register. I remembered that someone had pointed out that the board does flex a little, so I took it off my K&M stand and rested it on its ends - sure enough the clacking disappeared. This is indicative of poor design. It's a lightweight board, but large, and the frame or base should be strong enough to support the rest of the unit without flexing.

 

Action is reminiscent of the Privia series, but a little heavier. Someone on the other thread described the feel pretty accurately, IMO, when comparing it to the MP11.

 

Knobs and buttons feel fairly sturdy and up to the task. Screen is clear.

 

Power adapter cable is thin and may need to be supplemented with a spare. (My A/C adapter came with a Euro plug - come on guys, the UK uses completely different plugs!)

 

Piano sound through my EV ZX-A1s is fairly good, but not exceptional. I can confirm that the lower end is a little thin (as others have noted from the videos).

 

EPs are good, maybe with not quite the SV-1's vibe, but they should work fine for what I do, and you can clearly hear the randomized mechanical noises, which add a little extra authenticity.

 

Strings/pads - difficult to find something that isn't slathered in FX and with very slow attack. I'll need to work on these.

 

KB3 - great!

 

Synths - there are some very useful lead patches, and they sound great.

 

That's as far as I've got with it, but I'll try to add some more comprehensive thoughts in a few days time.

 

EDIT: Just updated the system, and that seems to have improved the piano response significantly and there also seems to be a marginal improvement to EQ.

 

 

 

 

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Interested in your comments about the size of the board - this is one thing that's putting me off, judging from website photos. Could you elaborate? It looks like there's a bit of extraneous plastic either side of the keys.

 

I play some small stages and really feel the benefit of the Nord 5D 73's footprint.

 

 

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From memory, it's the 18880, which has the concertina spreader.

 

The noise from the keys sounded as if they were striking the case - or at least some part of the internal housing.

 

You can actually feel the base flex slightly if you place your hands underneath and pick it up off the stand.

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Right from the start I noticed that I was getting a loud key "clacking" sound from an octave and a bit in the lower register. I remembered that someone had pointed out that the board does flex a little, so I took it off my K&M stand and rested it on its ends - sure enough the clacking disappeared. This is indicative of poor design. It's a lightweight board, but large, and the frame or base should be strong enough to support the rest of the unit without flexing.

You shouldn't have to, but I wonder if you can "fix" this by changing the width of the K&M, to find more ideal support spots for the board.

 

Action is reminiscent of the Privia series, but a little heavier.

Any feel about how they would compare in terms of quickness of return? "Heavier feeling" tends to equate with "slower feeling" but I think not necessarily...

 

EPs are good, maybe with not quite the SV-1's vibe, but they should work fine for what I do, and you can clearly hear the randomized mechanical noises, which add a little extra authenticity.

Any thought about "finger to ear connection"? Somehow, that's some of what I think Korg really got right with the SV1 EPs.

 

p.s. -- good to see you back here, it's been a while!

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Right from the start I noticed that I was getting a loud key "clacking" sound from an octave and a bit in the lower register. I remembered that someone had pointed out that the board does flex a little, so I took it off my K&M stand and rested it on its ends - sure enough the clacking disappeared. This is indicative of poor design. It's a lightweight board, but large, and the frame or base should be strong enough to support the rest of the unit without flexing.

You shouldn't have to, but I wonder if you can "fix" this by changing the width of the K&M, to find more ideal support spots for the board.

 

That's exactly how I "fixed" it, Scott! I think you need to support the board to the outside of the sculpted portion, to allow for better rear support.

 

Action is reminiscent of the Privia series, but a little heavier.

Any feel about how they would compare in terms of quickness of return? "Heavier feeling" tends to equate with "slower feeling" but I think not necessarily...

 

Key return is fairly fast. Trills and note repetitions are fine. It's really not a bad action at all, although only dual-sensor. So yes, although fairly heavy, it's not sluggish.

 

 

EPs are good, maybe with not quite the SV-1's vibe, but they should work fine for what I do, and you can clearly hear the randomized mechanical noises, which add a little extra authenticity.

Any thought about "finger to ear connection"? Somehow, that's some of what I think Korg really got right with the SV1 EPs.

 

That is what I am currently missing the most about the SV. The SP6 is OK, but I know I'm playing a computer at the moment. But it's early days, and I need to see what this board can do. It's quite a comprehensive package for not too much cash - just wish it had onboard EQ.

 

p.s. -- good to see you back here, it's been a while!

 

Thanks Scott, it certainly has been a while! After moving back across the pond, I got bogged down in all sorts of non-musical things, so stepped away from the forums. Hope to be throwing my two cents in from time to time.

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Any thought about "finger to ear connection"? Somehow, that's some of what I think Korg really got right with the SV1 EPs.

 

That is what I am currently missing the most about the SV. The SP6 is OK, but I know I'm playing a computer at the moment. But it's early days, and I need to see what this board can do. It's quite a comprehensive package for not too much cash - just wish it had onboard EQ.

Well, SV1 level finger-to-ear connection may have been too much to hope for. I guess I'd be content if it's at least as good as anyone else's sub-30 lb board.

 

As for the EQ, there was discussion earlier in the thread about how you can define the 4 knobs to function as EQ on any given program. Not as convenient as a global, but it's something.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Thanks for the insiteful review voxpops.

 

Good news that you find the action useable.The new OS update includes adding a high trigger option for organ. When you get to try it out let us know how its implemented an if its an improvement or not.

 

Maybe Kurz should have included a 50"x12"x9mm piece of marine plywood in the box for stand placement. :/

Though I can envisage that contact adhesive and some 2.5mm Alluminium (Thats Aluminum for you Yanks)would be one soloution!

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As for the EQ, there was discussion earlier in the thread about how you can define the 4 knobs to function as EQ on any given program. Not as convenient as a global, but it's something.

 

Thanks for reminding me about that. I went hunting and found the parameters. That said, I have just now loaded the old PC3 programs, and there are no EQ issues with those triple-strike pianos. It's something that Kurzweil might want to address.

 

One bug that I've found is that on-screen drawbar settings are reversed and that 0=8 and 8=0. I can't understand how that got missed!

 

Nice to be able to load all the old PC3 stuff, which expands the potential hugely, but there's still a lot of OS work to do on the basic SP6 stuff. It feels like it's been rushed through.

 

I was very tempted by the concept of the SP1 - simple and with dedicated volume knobs and line-ins - but having listened to the initial videos, it sounded VERY entry level, and with no workaround for poorly programmed sounds. The SP6 is basically a PC3-lite/light with "benefits." Looking forward to updates form Kurz. Meanwhile, I'll be slogging through all the PC3 material to begin cherry picking.

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Thanks for the insiteful review voxpops.

You're very welcome. I hope to expand on it after a few weeks with the board.

 

Good news that you find the action useable.The new OS update includes adding a high trigger option for organ. When you get to try it out let us know how its implemented an if its an improvement or not.

I did try it briefly yesterday, and it makes playing organ on the piano action tolerable - so kudos to Kurz for including that. And because it's dual sensor rather than triple, it behaves a little less wildly than using the high(est) trigger point on the MP7, which was prone to double-trigger due to key bounce.

 

Maybe Kurz should have included a 50"x12"x9mm piece of marine plywood in the box for stand placement. :/

 

You know, that solution actually flashed through my mind yesterday!

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The new OS update includes adding a high trigger option for organ.

 

Very cool.

 

A 76-key synth-weighted version of this (with the ability to play selected elements from an external keyboard) would be really interesting. As would an "organ-forward" model with 9 drawbars/faders and waterfall keys. I've always liked KB3 - even with the cut-down sim on the PC3LE.

 

Cheers, Mike.

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Listening to the "optimized" Forte pianos on the SP6 versus the old triple-strikes, I'm wondering if there isn't a whole lot of room for improving the SP6 pianos in an update. Obviously, I haven't a clue what is going on inside the works, but I am beginning to wonder if "optimized" means "make sure they don't compete with our higher priced boards!" If (and it's a big "if") that's the case, it's understandable, but possibly short-sighted. A lot of semi-pro users will be looking at this board due to its weight and potential.

 

I have a few days to decide whether it's a keeper or not. At the moment, I'm on the fence...

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I have just now loaded the old PC3 programs, and there are no EQ issues with those triple-strike pianos. It's something that Kurzweil might want to address.

Assuming you don't actually want them to add "EQ issues" ;-) I'm guessing you meant there was not a way to have the knobs control EQ on those patches? Is there at least a way to do it through editing via menu? I see that the new update adds a feature:

"NEW "Show Params" parameter (page 1/6) - If set to Yes, a new page appears in Program Edit Mode (4/4) where all the Parameters of the Program will be shown
so the questions would be, does the new feature of showing all parameters work on imported PC3 programs, and can you then edit the formerly hidden parameters or are they merely "shown" to you for informational purposes? My guess is that it would work on PC3 programs and that they would be editable, but since that was the extent of the documentation, the only way to be sure would be to try it (or maybe ask someone at Kurz or Dave W). Then you'd have to see if EQ is indeed one of the revealed parameters you can access on imported PC3 programs. Regardless of any of that, worst case, there is an editor coming out, and presumably you'd be able to edit the EQ of PC3 programs there.

 

A 76-key synth-weighted version of this (with the ability to play selected elements from an external keyboard) would be really interesting. As would an "organ-forward" model with 9 drawbars/faders and waterfall keys.

The Artis7 is close to what you're asking for (apart from waterfall keys), though the SP6 does have a few advantages of its own. This is something I've specifically been looking at because I haven't decided whether or not I want to swap my Artis7 for an SP6.

 

Apart from the different action, the SP6 advantages over the Artis7 appear to be:

* Forte SE-derived sounds. Based on Hipogrito's earlier post in this thread, it sounds like the specific Forte SE sample sets in the SP6 that do not exist in the Artis7 are the Japanese grand, Rhodes 73, Harpsichord, Celeste, Clav, Crotales, and some synth waveforms.

* string resonance and half-damper on the Grand D piano sound they share, and on the Japanese grand that they don't (I'm not sure how noticeable string resonance and half damper would be in live ensemble playing... even if it makes no difference to the audience, I wonder whether or not it's something I'd notice myself, that could create a better playing experience)

* 32 rather than 16 fx units (not such a big deal for me, esp. as I use single Programs much more than I use multi-program Setups, so I don't tend to task the fx capabilities anyway... even my most frequently used Multi is only for LH bass.)

* arpeggiators (I don't use them)

* 1024 rather than 256 user Programs/Multis (though 256 of each is enough for me)

 

What most appeals to me about the SP6 is the potential of the new sounds (notably piano/Rhodes), and the 88 key hammer action. But it is unclear to me as to whether I'd actually prefer to play, let's call it a "good but not great" weighted versus what is probably my favorite semi-weighted (I have lighter springs on my Artis7, which better suits me), so I'm not entirely sure the action would be an "upgrade" for me, even for piano playing.

 

What I like about about the Artis7 that I'd lose in moving to an SP6:

* the 9 sliders (vs 4 knobs) and 5 buttons (vs 1), for both KB3 organ and other uses

* the better patch selection capabilities (10 Favorites vs 5, plus a 16 x 16 patch select matrix with a display that shows the names of what is currently assigned to the 16 patch select buttons)

* global EQ

* aux in

* internal power supply (I'm not as hung up on that as some people are, but it is nice).

* bigger display (though not having used the SP6, I don't know whether or not that display offers additional practical benefit beyond the nice patch name display for the 16 buttons, or for that matter, whether the SP6's newer on-screen interface might offer some benefits of its own despite the smaller size)

 

Travel weight is about the same.

 

While I might have some single-board use, most of the time either of these would be paired with another board, most likely a Nord 73, Kronos 61, or MOXF6 (with flash), so it's not like I have no other sources for alternate high quality piano/rhodes/clav/harpsi sounds if I want them (and it's not like the Artis7/PC3 doesn't already give you a perfectly good, above average sound library). So I think it would really come down to whether the action would make it worth trading off all the other Artis7 advantages. Which is what prompted my questions about how quick or slow the action feels, and what the finger-to-ear connection is like.

 

Listening to the "optimized" Forte pianos on the SP6 versus the old triple-strikes, I'm wondering if there isn't a whole lot of room for improving the SP6 pianos in an update.

Do you feel this way equally about both the German D and the Japanese?

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I'm guessing you meant there was not a way to have the knobs control EQ on those patches? Is there at least a way to do it through editing via menu?

 

Poorly phrased on my part. No, I meant that Kurz should have another look at these "optimized" new pianos and at least get them on par with the old triple strike for EQ and richness of tone, particularly in the bass. The 7' grand doesn't suffer as much as the 9' in this regard.

 

As far as I can tell, the PC3 programs don't respond to the knobs in the same way as the internal factory sounds. It would be useful, but it's not a big deal for me. Those sounds were generally very well programmed in my opinion.

 

I see that the new update adds a feature:
"NEW "Show Params" parameter (page 1/6) - If set to Yes, a new page appears in Program Edit Mode (4/4) where all the Parameters of the Program will be shown
so the questions would be, does the new feature of showing all parameters work on imported PC3 programs, and can you then edit the formerly hidden parameters or are they merely "shown" to you for informational purposes? My guess is that it would work on PC3 programs and that they would be editable, but since that was the extent of the documentation, the only way to be sure would be to try it (or maybe ask someone at Kurz or Dave W). Then you'd have to see if EQ is indeed one of the revealed parameters you can access on imported PC3 programs. Regardless of any of that, worst case, there is an editor coming out, and presumably you'd be able to edit the EQ of PC3 programs there.

 

I'll need to do some more menu diving to be sure about what can be done with the old stuff, but as you say, the editor should take care of all that.

 

Listening to the "optimized" Forte pianos on the SP6 versus the old triple-strikes, I'm wondering if there isn't a whole lot of room for improving the SP6 pianos in an update.

Do you feel this way equally about both the German D and the Japanese?

As mentioned above, I think the Japanese piano is the one that needs the most work. I'd be curious to try Dave Weiser's patches as I think he has the most experience programming piano sounds for Kurzweil. I don't know whether he's going to be offering them for sale or not, but I would hazard a guess that they make the most of the SP6's horsepower.

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