My IEM Revelation Has Begun :)

[cphollis]

 

We did have issues on the first three or four gigs with the wifi system due to conflicts with other close wifi routers, but he got it worked out. Not sure what he did but if anyone wants to know I will ask him.

 

The one gripe I have with all IEMs is that people dancing close to the stage get very little vocals and keys because there's no presence of them on the stage (no wedge montitors). I keep telling them we need to at least have some side-fills to get a little vocal presence.

 

The wifi problem is permanently solved by buying a $50 router and not broadcasting the network name, which keeps every phone in the venue from trying to mate with your network.

 

I bring along a single self-powered 8" and plop it on the front of the stage facing out. Nice fill for folks who come close to the stage. Covers nicely maybe 10-20 feet out, and then the bigger FOHs kick in.

[MTalking]

cphollis: Does the router you bring have to plug into an internet cable that goes into the wall, like at home? (I obviously don't know any of the technical terms  which is why my question sounds like I'm 5 years old.)

[rickp]

 

We did have issues on the first three or four gigs with the wifi system due to conflicts with other close wifi routers, but he got it worked out. Not sure what he did but if anyone wants to know I will ask him.

 

The wifi problem is permanently solved by buying a $50 router and not broadcasting the network name, which keeps every phone in the venue from trying to mate with your network.

 

We've encountered this problem particularly in hotels and convention centers that have WiFi repeaters sprinkled throughout the facility, resulting in such a strong presence that the main FOH wireless iPad and all of the band's monitor-mix iPad's are essentially "beckoned," for lack of a better word, to join the stronger, more enveloping network's signal. The remedy is to utilize the "Forget This Network" option in each device's WiFi settings.

 

[cphollis]

cphollis: Does the router you bring have to plug into an internet cable that goes into the wall, like at home? (I obviously don't know any of the technical terms  which is why my question sounds like I'm 5 years old.)

 

The back of the router has one dedicated port that's supposed to connect to the internet, and usually 4 or so that connect to wired devices in your home.

 

The connection is made between one of those 4 or so ports and your wireless mixer, NOT the internet port, using a standard cheapo ethernet cable, which is often included with the router.

 

In this setup, there is no internet connection wanted or needed. The router serves up network IP addresses using something called DHCP, usually enabled by default.

 

Turn it on before a gig, it just works. No drama these days. At least, as far as wifi goes.

[MTalking]

Ahh, I see. Very cool, thanks!

 

[Theo Verelst]

I guess it's a pleasure to prevent many difficult sound and ambience problems by getting the monitoring and all the hassle of separating the personal monitoring functions from each other. I sometimes play with headphones, makes it easier to get a close connection with the sound, and when you can shield a bit from the PA sound, and don't hear other musicians' monitors at all there's a lot more rest of a certain kind.

 

But, the unconnectedness with the local acoustics, no direct sense of the hall's or room's acoustic response isn't a great way to make music. Maybe for in a bar, it's a lot better, that I understand.

 

For me it's a bit hard to explain but not at all a vague concept that with headphones with digital signals, instead of (analog mixed) monitors you're going to probably dislike elements of the sound that aren't going to be different without significant pro elements of the signal design, and in fact, sound preparation! And that kind of adaptation of the sound isn't on par with acoustic preparations except when significant audio perfection comes into view. Most keyboard don't work very well out-of-the-box with Lexicon reverb simulation, or that would be a solution to a number of these issues.

 

T.

[J. Dan]

Theo while most of these guys are saying they want more ambience (not me, I want as much isolation as possible) I'm guessing that their disconnection has every bit as much to do with directionality. In a live environment, you're used to the drum sounds coming from the drums and the guitar coming from

The guitar amp. I'm betting the bigger issue than room effects is just the fact that it's all mixed together and piped into your head with no directional separation. Of course the advantage is that you can run all around the stage and maintain the same mix and not worrying about not hearing your vocal because somebody else doesn't have it in their monitor.

[Theo Verelst]

That ever present digital sound is just penetrating annoying, for acoustics, and in another way but equally annoying with headphones. Maybe just not thinking about it and using some of the tricks by using curves and impedance resonances for certain headphone/amp combinations make it alright to work with, but I, myself, cannot like it without a sh*tload or work to achieve the sample reconstruction and some virtual acoustics or preparations for real acoustics to work out at least for some signal parts.

 

T.

[joegerardi]

In my research, I have found that there are CIEMs with -20dB, and -15dB of attenuation, if you want more ambient sound.

 

You get to pick how much you want when you purchase.

 

And of course the ones with mics built in for ambience.

 

..Joe

[cphollis]

Wave 2 of IEM adoption has now begun in my erstwhile band.

 

Just to recap, noise complaints at the rehearsal space rapidly accelerated adoption. I started out with some not-bad ~$95 Shure units, and quickly upgraded to the Westone AM-30 ambient models.

 

Money well spent, thank you.

 

Two gigs and four rehearsals later, the guys are starting to crumble. The rhythm guitarist and bass player aren't bothering to bring amps any more. E.g. "why bother?"

 

I'm always sitting there, mixing the band sound through the IEMs, saying "it sounds amazing!", smiling ear-to-ear, and they can't understand why they're getting crappy sound. The drummer already had nice, custom-fit IEMs, he gets it.

 

The rhythm guitarist and bass guitarist have their upgraded triple-driver IEMs on order. Win! They're going ambient as I have.

 

The most difficult lead guitarist showed up to rehearsal with some decent ear-muff headphones. Shocking pink, borrowed from his daughter. I took a few photos as blackmail.

 

Halfway through the rehearsal, I turned off his amp, he didn't notice. At the end of rehearsal, he was like "who turned off my amp?"

 

He was smiling as well for the most part. He's next.

 

We played the last rehearsal with zero in-room amplification, and everyone loved it. Now if we can do something similar for our next gig?

 

Look, I've spent thousands of dollars on keyboard amplification. Guilty as charged. All blown away by a decent 3-driver IEMs. Almost too crystal clear, I hear artifacts that humans aren't supposed to hear.

 

But I have nice FOH these days

[LennyTunes]

I've been really intrigued while following the story of your iem journey. Now I am trying to decide on the Westone ambient models or complete isolation. My concern is the needed stage chatter or communication with band members. How are you handling that?

[Nathanael_I]

Look, I've spent thousands of dollars on keyboard amplification. Guilty as charged. All blown away by a decent 3-driver IEMs. Almost too crystal clear, I hear artifacts that humans aren't supposed to hear.

 

But I have nice FOH these days

 

This is what your Fulcrums are for. Get high quailty custom molded in ears for you. The audience gets the Fulcrums. Ear candy for all. I currently have 64ears 6 driver, but the 10 driver ones that were stolen sounded even better. I dont use ambient mics, it sounds better to me.

[J. Dan]

I've been really intrigued while following the story of your iem journey. Now I am trying to decide on the Westone ambient models or complete isolation. My concern is the needed stage chatter or communication with band members. How are you handling that?

 

When I was doing it and everybody in the band had IEM's with great isolation, it was clear enough that you could practically whisper in your mic and the other band members would hear it in their IEM's but it would be too quiet in the PA to be heard over the crowd noise.

[cphollis]

I've been really intrigued while following the story of your iem journey. Now I am trying to decide on the Westone ambient models or complete isolation. My concern is the needed stage chatter or communication with band members. How are you handling that?

 

Not an issue. Audibles and such come through the mikes, no matter what you do. As a matter of fact, we took the noise gates off the mikes because (a) no longer needed, and (b) you can hear what people are saying.

 

If you want to have a personal chat, pull out one ear. My ambients don't require me to do that, more of social signaling that "hey, I'm listening to you".

 

4 out 5 band members are convinced this is the best setup ever, and they're not going back no matter what. In the middle of rehearsals and gigs, you see this blissful smile on their faces. Total eargasms all around. They truly love how they sound now. I'm in the same camp.

 

Rehearsals and gigs make me happy vs. being frustrating. I always have this big grin on my face for a while afterwards.

 

Lead guitarist was futilely trying to make a case for brining back amps and monitors at the last rehearsal. Uh oh. Not exactly socially aware.

 

The other guys were brutal, e.g. "yeah, let's go back to sucking on stage" "dude, 1995 called and they want their sound system back" , "I really miss the wild uncontrolled feedback in the middle of a song", "NFW" and so on.

 

I just sort of sat back and watched them devour one of their own. No comment.

 

That being said, a few of the guys have to ditch their cheapo IEMs, and step up to the next level of gear. Which they say they're willing to do before long. For example, rhythm guitarist told me "yeah, I was looking at this great guitar amp, but I thought -- what's the point? -- better to spend the money on some decent IEMs."

 

Which is the right way to think about this stuff.

[cphollis]

Quick update?

 

I played a fantasy gig yesterday at the local beach bar 1-4 pm. Weather was perfect, hundreds of patrons in beach wear. Al Quinn and his wife were nearby, and decided to swing by for a while. Chatted with them a bit during the break, they seemed to enjoy it.

 

This was our fourth IEM-only gig. No technical problems, other than a battery dying. I monitored FOH as usual.

 

After the first song, venue owner comes over and says "you guys sound really good, can you turn up some more?". So a bumped up the mains slider a notch, and got the thumbs up from him.

 

How often does that happen?

 

I thought we sounded clean all afternoon. The sound never, ever got away from us.

 

Lots of patrons, some sober, came up and congratulated us on our clean sound and how much they enjoyed the afternoon. They said we were fun to listen to, and still can have a conversation. I used two pairs of 8"s (strange L/R setup with a big pool in the middle, plus a small sub. Never got over 30% of full volume.

 

Although I'm going to get tired of "Wagon Wheel" before too long

 

Venue owner was so happy with us that he threw us an extra $100 at the end. That never happens. Plus he wanted to lock down a bunch more dates ASAP. OK, fine.

 

Not everyone can move their bands to IEM discipline, but I can't think of a single bigger contribution to our sound -- and our playing enjoyment.

[Stokely]

I've been really intrigued while following the story of your iem journey. Now I am trying to decide on the Westone ambient models or complete isolation. My concern is the needed stage chatter or communication with band members. How are you handling that?

 

For what we do--classic rock/dance cover stuff--there's no chatter needed or wanted...nothing kills momentum like the band having a discussion about something on-stage (usually it's "how do we end this song again?", ie, stuff everyone should know). Having control over your own monitor mix removes the other "talking point", which is "I need less of Bob in my mix!!!!" type of stuff But yeah, just pull out an earbud if you really really need to talk about something.

[CEB]

Man this isn't the case here. I've been feeling cluster phobic at gigs. Played some clubs recently that didn't have proper stages and things started to get a little hairy. We play an oldie by House Of Pain called Jump Around. With IEMs you don't have the wedge wall anymore. The shit gets a little too real during that tune.

 

This why, at smaller clubs, we still set up the wedge wall as a barrier, even when they're not used.

Not to totally jump the shark but depending on the types of and size of crowds you draw crowd spillover may be something to consider. But we've had issue with venues having problems exceeding capacity limits. I wish I could take the credit but it aint me.

 

[cphollis]

The "wedge as barrier" is a real thing, especially in smaller rowdier venues where there's no separation and it's packed tight.

 

That being said, a patron who is drunk enough to approach the musicians uninvited is usually drunk enough to trip and fall ingloriously over a wedge monitor.

 

Seen it happen more than once.

[J. Dan]

 

After the first song, venue owner comes over and says "you guys sound really good, can you turn up some more?". So a bumped up the mains slider a notch, and got the thumbs up from him.

 

How often does that happen?

 

More often than you'd think when there's no on-stage amplification and especially if there's electric drums. In fact, one adjustment some may have to make is that you may find you tax your FOH system quite a bit more. Luckily we generally play stages with security so that a barrier isn't necessary. However we have had the house turn on the side fills with the FOH mix in them just to get more sound coming from the stage area for the people in the very front of the stage.

[cphollis]

 

After the first song, venue owner comes over and says "you guys sound really good, can you turn up some more?". So a bumped up the mains slider a notch, and got the thumbs up from him.

 

How often does that happen?

 

More often than you'd think when there's no on-stage amplification and especially if there's electric drums. In fact, one adjustment some may have to make is that you may find you tax your FOH system quite a bit more. Luckily we generally play stages with security so that a barrier isn't necessary. However we have had the house turn on the side fills with the FOH mix in them just to get more sound coming from the stage area for the people in the very front of the stage.

 

Noted.

 

I've started to bring my own stage fills, generally a few small 8" units, placed horizontally on the stage (or floor!), aimed at the audience. The idea is that if you come in close, you should hear something special. Which, in my walking around experiments, work pretty good. The RCF TT08-a units do especially well in this role.

 

Creamy, yummy sound. And it draws people inward to dance a bit more.

 

You come in close, you hear a bit of stage noise (amps, drums, etc.) albeit at lower volumes) plus you get my personal high-fidelity FOH feed.

 

So far, so good. The fans are starting to dig it.

[J. Dan]

Those RCF TT08-a's are really nice - outside the budget of most on here, but definitely nice.

[cphollis]

Those RCF TT08-a's are really nice - outside the budget of most on here, but definitely nice.

 

Yes, sort of, but a bit debatable, so let me explore?

 

I find all sorts of people on this forum who are more than willing to drop serious $$ on the next super-duper board, or the next exotic pre-amp, or a killer leslie, or whatever. My point? They're choosing what to spend on. All good.

 

No harm in that. More power to all of them, really. Do whatever makes you happy, right?

 

In that context, laying out maybe $3K for a killer set of 8" speakers really isn't all that outrageous. My view? It's all about priorities. And translating killer band sound to the audience has become one of my priorities.

 

The journey isn't done! I'm still learning

[Nathanael_I]

Q I used two pairs of 8"s (strange L/R setup with a big pool in the middle, plus a small sub. Never got over 30% of full volume......

 

Not everyone can move their bands to IEM discipline, but I can't think of a single bigger contribution to our sound -- and our playing enjoyment.

 

This is, in my opinion why higher-quality PA equipment exists. It isn't that it plays louder - it is that everything it plays sounds better. And music is supposed to sound good! An overly loud, muddy mess is not good listening. I know you know, but at living room levels, Fulcrum Acoustics PA sounds "studio monitor good". I have mine set up right beside my Genelecs in the studio - they sound fantastic soft AND loud.

 

There is a coffee shop near our house that my wife I will go to. They often have live music on Friday/Saturday night. All local. The older the musicians, the better chance it will sound good. They all bring their own amps, but play at an appropriate volume, perfectly mixed into the room - acoustic drums are played mostly on the hi-hats, light kick, brush or light sticks on the snare, stopped cymbal crashes - it always sounds great. Discipline, taste, and experience. The jazz guys are usually good. The blues guys? The older they are, the better odds it will sound good. The singer/songwriters are the worst. Loud, crappy amps, horrible vocals through really cheap awful systems. We get our drinks and go. There are some young players that are all ears, and do the same as the old guys - they are lots of fun - not as accomplished, but they are fully all-in on their music and I appreciate that a lot.

 

People hear "CD quality" audio all the time (or at least the streaming approximation). If a band can deliver that quality of sound, only with the emotional involvement of live volumes and real people to interact with, it will always stand out.

 

When I get my IEM mix "just right" it is magical - it happens almost all the time now. We set the gain of all instruments to the same level on sound check, with the drums a little hotter (he needs more gain to overcome the level of acoustic drums when in a booth and playing hard). I start with all the individual channels even, and it is tiny adjustments, and then everything is even. It is easy to tell if I am blending in, poking out, or whatever. When we are "on" it sounds GREAT, and that musician happiness is had regardless of the levels coming out of the mains. That's the FOH job.

[cphollis]

^^^

Right on, dude. I want to be that "older dude" that brings amazing sonics to small venue gigs. Part of it is gear, part of it is discipline.

 

All good?

[J. Dan]

Main thing I've learned over the years is that it seems like most of you play very different gigs than I play. Not good or bad, just different. Makes it very difficult to do online A/B comparisons.

[Losendoskeys]

So, for those of you who know my story? Bar bands. Weak equipment. Small venues. Etc, etc. How do you bring game in a market that only pays $400 for a band?

 

Well, I'm no touring dude, but I knew that IEMs were the answer. I mean, as a technology guy, is there any other answer? I knew it, but I had to convince the other band members that This Is The Way Forward.

 

I now have every member of the band relying on IEMs (including the drummer and lead guitarist!) and dialing in their own "more me" mix. All good. Except me?

 

A few bad experiences with wifi not happening, but we're past that now. You have an iDevice, you're in control of what you hear. Stop whining. Although setting up a stable wifi network with the Behringer X-Air mixer has been a bit of a geek challenge. Which I'm totally up for, BTW.

 

Me? I'm in charge of the FOH mix. Trust me, I know what I'm freakin' doing. Total CD quality joy. I'm not listening to what I want to hear as a keyboard player, I'm listening to what the crowd should be hearing. If a guitar solo isn't coming through, I will take corrective action.

 

Trust, folks.

 

My FOH amplification is modest but completely sonically accurate. Usually a pair of RCF TT08-as, plus a RCF sub. No monitors. Joy! I can bring more, but not required these days.

 

Keys are in the mix, guitars are dialed back appropriately, etc. There's a trust factor involved with the other musos, all good. Stage volume is minimal, except for drums. The lead guitarist has been tamed. Total win. Focus on tone, man, I've got your back covered on amplification.

 

First observation? It's changed how I play. It's all about the blended mix, so not overly aggressive wrt to keys. Tasty, but just another instrument. And, s**t I hear each and every clam I play. Time to step up?

 

Objective achieved. Yes, there was drama, but we're winning the war!

 

Lead guitarist says "I can't hear myself". OK, go to the app, dial in more of yourself? Trust me, if it doesn't sound good, I will correct.

 

I haven't weaned the guitarists from their amps (I'm playing with nothing), but they're now playing at such minimal volume it's not an issue. Just boost the keys a bit, and all will be OK. Bass player is considering playing no amp, because he loves the sound of the IEMs and the FOH.

 

BTW, at rehearsal tonight, the rhythm guitar player totally forgot to plug his DI into his amp. Took him 3 hours to notice it. I wasn't going to say anything ...

 

We are getting huge props from venue managers for our "clean" sound. Highly recommended, and not expensive if you go wired vs. wireless.

 

The evolution of band sound continues ...

 

We've been doing this since 2004 - welcome to the 21st Century!

[nursers]

This thread has been great, thank you. I just have one dumb question to kick off: do you all use a wireless set up or do you used a more basic wired connection. I I don't think I can afford wireless at this stage as I might pick up a set of Westone AM Pro 30s. Interested in people's thoughts

[ajstan]

Since I play seated and dont move around much, I am wired. The headphone amp/mixer is mounted under my keyboard with command strips and I use a 6 headphone extension cable, since the included cable is not very long.

[mate stubb]

I'm wired also. I run a Key Largo on my pedal board for FOH, and a second small Yamaha mixer for in-ears, which allows me to feed my monitor mix back to the ears. I just use the headphones output jack to drive them. Works great. I have keys in stereo in my ears, and a mono band mix.

[J. Dan]

While I haven't used mine in a while, I always ran wireless but I jumped around a lot and also played sax, guitar, and sang lead on some songs.

 

That said, the beltpack I used with my system (Shure PSM200) could be used wired as well without the wireless transmitter. I occasionally used it that way for other things out of convenience. I had bought a spare off ebay and they can be had for a fairly reasonable price. The advantage of doing this is that it has a built in limiter, which you'll want for safety. Plus it's nice to have easy access to the volume knob, and most IEM's will have short cords and need an extension anyway. It just takes a line in and acts as a headphone amp/limiter in a beltpack format. Then when you're ready to go wireless, you just have to add the transmitter.

 

I'm sure there are other similar options out there, the Shure is just what I used at the time. Just a thought.