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#2909297 - 02/13/18 11:10 AM OT? Gibson circling the drain?
misterdregs Offline
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https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/m...of-time-rapidly

On a semi-related note, the Gibson factory tour in Nashville is worth doing.
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#2909326 - 02/13/18 12:40 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: misterdregs]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: misterdregs
On a semi-related note, the Gibson factory tour in Nashville is worth doing.


...while it's still there. wink
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#2909340 - 02/13/18 01:38 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: Sven Golly]
Stokely Offline
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Registered: 12/15/12
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They seem to have made some very questionable decisions through the years...I guess many companies do, but they have their share. Quality control has slipped according to some guitar forums I frequent and it's hard to win people back if you let that happen (especially for a very expensive-compared-to-competition instrument)

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#2909355 - 02/13/18 02:19 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: Stokely]
tarkus Offline
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Registered: 05/04/04
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Debt refi has been a common corporate response during the era of ZIRP. They'll file and the refi pro's will come in. Something this large will require a restructuring. Sad to say, but on a globalist level wouldn't be surprising to see Korean or Chinese interests looking to license the name for the right price.
Expect a spin-off of some of the boutique name investments they made over the past 20-years.

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#2909356 - 02/13/18 02:21 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: Stokely]
zxcvbnm098 Offline
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Registered: 12/02/05
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Loc: Southern Calif.
Unless Henry is removed, they will continue in the same direction. All problems with that company go straight back to him.

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#2909357 - 02/13/18 02:28 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: zxcvbnm098]
Keybass Offline
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Registered: 06/23/03
Posts: 465
Originally Posted By: zxcvbnm098
Unless Henry is removed, they will continue in the same direction. All problems with that company go straight back to him.


+100
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#2909359 - 02/13/18 02:32 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: tarkus]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5354
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Originally Posted By: tarkus
Debt refi has been a common corporate response during the era of ZIRP. They'll file and the refi pro's will come in. Something this large will require a restructuring. Sad to say, but on a globalist level wouldn't be surprising to see Korean or Chinese interests looking to license the name for the right price.
Expect a spin-off of some of the boutique name investments they made over the past 20-years.


I was going to state a court filing is imminent. a company can only juggle cash flow so far.

I haven't seen a cash flow statement for Gibson. My guess its ugly.

The debt holders will likely do something as you state. Break Gibson into little pieces, in an effort to find where the asset value is. And sell it.

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#2909366 - 02/13/18 03:19 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: GregC]
mate stubb Offline
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My guitar player / collector buddy bought a nice SG a month or so ago. He said he wanted one from the last year of production. We are all convinced they are going down this year.

ps. Henry sucks!
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#2909383 - 02/13/18 05:21 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: GregC]
zxcvbnm098 Offline
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Registered: 12/02/05
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Loc: Southern Calif.
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: tarkus
Debt refi has been a common corporate response during the era of ZIRP. They'll file and the refi pro's will come in. Something this large will require a restructuring. Sad to say, but on a globalist level wouldn't be surprising to see Korean or Chinese interests looking to license the name for the right price.
Expect a spin-off of some of the boutique name investments they made over the past 20-years.


I was going to state a court filing is imminent. a company can only juggle cash flow so far.

I haven't seen a cash flow statement for Gibson. My guess its ugly.

The debt holders will likely do something as you state. Break Gibson into little pieces, in an effort to find where the asset value is. And sell it.


That portfolio is so goofy, I'm not sure all of those little pieces are all that valuable? TEAC, Onkyo, Philips et al, not exactly top tier brands. They have some value of course, but they are all in low margin, high competition verticals. Henry I'm sure over paid in his odd vision of "Gibson Brands".

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#2909395 - 02/13/18 06:29 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: zxcvbnm098]
CEB Offline
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Screw Henry. Buy the real thing.

https://heritageguitars.com/
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#2909408 - 02/13/18 08:24 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: CEB]
Marzzz Offline
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Registered: 11/24/00
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Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
Originally Posted By: CEB
Screw Henry. Buy the real thing.

https://heritageguitars.com/


YES.

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#2909422 - 02/13/18 09:48 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: Marzzz]
The Real MC Offline
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I will not shed any tears if Henry is removed. He left a wake of scorched earth companies - opcode, oberheim, cakewalk, too many others.

If Gibson were to wind up in bankruptcy, I hope Tom fights to get his Oberheim trademark back.

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#2909430 - 02/13/18 11:24 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: CEB]
Markay Offline
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Originally Posted By: CEB
Screw Henry. Buy the real thing.

https://heritageguitars.com/


My every day player and gig guitar. Built in Kalamazoo in 1998.



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#2909436 - 02/14/18 02:45 AM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: Markay]
Aidan Offline
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Friend of mine bought a 335 a couple of years ago, mucho money, could never get it in tune. Finally took it to a local luthier who told him that the neck scale was out by several mm and the thing would NEVER be in tune. Cue eight-month wrangle with Gibson, who finally put a new neck on it...and it had exactly the same problem. After another few months of back-and-forthing, my friend finally got Gibson to send him a new guitar which finally was right. I believe such QC stories are commonplace with contemporary Gibsons.
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#2909525 - 02/14/18 09:32 AM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: CEB]
HammondDave Offline
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Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 7072
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: CEB
Screw Henry. Buy the real thing.

https://heritageguitars.com/


Getting back to keyboards, The iconic Gibson G101 was also named The Kalamazoo. Does anyone know the story behind this? Which one came first?
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#2909529 - 02/14/18 09:42 AM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: HammondDave]
CEB Offline
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Orville Gibson was from Kalamazoo Mi. Kalamazoo is the Home of Gibson Guitars. Orville started the business in Kalamazoo in 1896.

Henry Jackoffewizc bought Gibson from Norlin and moved production to Tennessee in the 86 and closed the Kalamazoo factory. Jim Deurloo, Marv Lamb, JP Moats, Bill Paige, and Mike Korpak bought the tools and facilities and kept producing guitars but under the Heritage name a year later.

Gibson used the Kalamazoo name for various things over the years. They made a lower cost line of guitars that they badged as Kalamazoo.



Edited by CEB (02/14/18 12:30 PM)
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#2909537 - 02/14/18 09:53 AM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: CEB]
Delaware Dave Offline
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If Remington can write-off $700 million dollars in a planned bankruptcy then I'm sure something will be worked out for Gibson.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/201...aker/332888002/
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#2909576 - 02/14/18 11:51 AM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: Delaware Dave]
p19978 Offline
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Slag Gibson all you want but their Historic line is killer.

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#2909577 - 02/14/18 11:56 AM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: p19978]
timwat Offline
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Slag Gibson?

I don't think that's what's going on here. What's going on here is we're lamenting a historic brand ran into chapter by poor management. An all-too-common story.
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#2909586 - 02/14/18 12:33 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: p19978]
Devnor Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 169
Originally Posted By: p19978
Slag Gibson all you want but their Historic line is killer.


Exactly. Gibson builds tens of thousands of guitars. Some duds slip thru but many simply need a good setup and attention to the nut. This is my historic, a '07 R0


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#2909593 - 02/14/18 12:54 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: Delaware Dave]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
If Remington can write-off $700 million dollars in a planned bankruptcy then I'm sure something will be worked out for Gibson.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/201...aker/332888002/


Understand that the creditors now own the company. The valuation of the company is determined to be the $700 million.

"The Term Loan Lenders will equitize their claims and receive 82.5% of the equity in Reorganized Remington. These lenders will also receive their Pro Rata share of $2.67 million in cash at emergence.

The Third Lien Noteholders will receive (i) 17.5% of the equity in Reorganized Remington through the equitization of the ROC DIP Term Loan, and (ii) 4-year warrants for 15% of the equity in Reorganized Remington at a strike price to be derived at emergence based on a $700 million enterprise value. The Third Lien Noteholders will also receive their pro rata share of the remaining cash at Remington Outdoor Company."

Busch.

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#2909602 - 02/14/18 01:20 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: burningbusch]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Registered: 04/21/11
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Loc: Take a guess ....
CD&R (Clayton Dubilier and Rice) purchased the company from Dupont in 1993 for $300MM, financed by a $100MM term loan and $120MM in bond issuance. Not one red cent of CD&R's money was used to make the purchase. Too much debt and interest to overcome at startup. They never recovered.
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#2909678 - 02/14/18 04:52 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: Delaware Dave]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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#2910065 - 02/16/18 07:56 AM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
HammondDave Offline
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Any company that allows this to happen deserves to be shut down...

DAMAGED LES PAUL USED IN GIBSON AD
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#2910067 - 02/16/18 08:12 AM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: HammondDave]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: HammondDave
Any company that allows this to happen deserves to be shut down...

DAMAGED LES PAUL USED IN GIBSON AD


I wonder if this wasn't either deliberate sabotage, or completely apathetic employees. The hate for what the company has become from its own workers is intense.
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#2910104 - 02/16/18 10:32 AM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: mate stubb]
SkiGuy777 Offline
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I'm subscribed to a bunch of YouTube channels, and most of the NAMM coverage was all about guitars. I was scratching my head wondering why? The point being there's no guitar gods of today in the main stream, most music on the radio is all urban rap, and it's no big deal to shred. This was talked about in another thread but it ties with with the declining sales of guitars, not just the mistakes of a CEO.
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#2910106 - 02/16/18 10:37 AM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: mate stubb]
MotiDave Offline
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Originally Posted By: mate stubb
Originally Posted By: HammondDave
Any company that allows this to happen deserves to be shut down...

DAMAGED LES PAUL USED IN GIBSON AD


I wonder if this wasn't either deliberate sabotage, or completely apathetic employees. The hate for what the company has become from its own workers is intense.

lowering expectations in case a customer calls to complain -

"no, that is not a blemish - it is a personalized feature. Each Gibson guitar has unique hand crafted character marks to deliver a truly one-of-a-kind guitar experience to the discerning Gibson customer"
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#2910158 - 02/16/18 03:17 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: MotiDave]
OB Dave Offline
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Registered: 04/25/09
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Loc: San Diego CA, US
Originally Posted By: MotiDave

"no, that is not a blemish - it is a personalized feature.

"Distressed finish."

Gibson's Glassdoor entry paints a sad picture too.

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#2910160 - 02/16/18 03:29 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: OB Dave]
Ledbetter Offline
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That’s an option. Costs extra. For a little more, they’ll drag a belt buckle across the back a few times.
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#2910174 - 02/16/18 04:26 PM Re: OT? Gibson circling the drain? [Re: Ledbetter]
hurricane hugo Offline
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good riddance.
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