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#2909265 - 02/13/18 09:24 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: GRollins]
CEB Offline
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Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 13030
Its the action in the S90XS that rocks. Yamaha still uses that action in the Montage 8. If my Kronos 2 had that Yamaha balanced action I would be happier than a puppy with two peters.

The MOXF8 doesn't quite do it for me. That action is a hair slower.


Edited by CEB (02/13/18 09:25 AM)
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#2909280 - 02/13/18 10:26 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: CEB]
Outkaster Online   content
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Registered: 02/25/06
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Yeah I tried one at a gig one time where I sat in for a few songs. You are right about the Kronos that would be cool.
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#2909459 - 02/14/18 06:06 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: Dave Ferris]
Outkaster Online   content
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Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 6291
Loc: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
A fwiw, the new sample in the Kawai MP7SE and upgraded action made a huge improvement over the original in my short time with it at NAMM -- and that was with low grade phones. If at all possible I would give that a try.

I would also second the suggestion for the Grandstage. Very nice. Just quick impressions on that -- it would sound better in a band then what you get playing it solo.

I like the RD2000 a lot as well. Like I've posted before though, a little slower with regard to being responsive sound and action for Jazz compared to the CP4. But it's certainly a great ax albeit at the heavier weight.

If I were getting a second gigging keyboard - with a little more firepower then the CP4 for stuff other then straight-ahead Jazz- I would choose the Korg personally.

One more fwiw, I heard Mitch Forman last month at the Baked Potato and he was still using the S90 classic. Worked for him. smile I think I sold mine to get the CP5 in 2010.


Dave I just saw some video for that Kawai MP7SE. How was the action?
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#2909473 - 02/14/18 07:09 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: Outkaster]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 5963
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
In just a short time with it, I thought good. I never could at all connect with the MP7, sound or action. Again, immediately I could tell the SE was a big improvement. If you can deal with the weight, I'd make an effort to at least check one out. I'd need more time with it to say for sure if it would be for me but the quick impression was definitely favorable. smile

And also again, play the Grandstage and try to envision it in the band context.
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#2909487 - 02/14/18 08:01 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: Dave Ferris]
Outkaster Online   content
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Registered: 02/25/06
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Loc: Rochester, NY
OK will do. I will see if I can find one locally.
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#2909508 - 02/14/18 08:41 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: Outkaster]
Stokely Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/15/12
Posts: 1967
Loc: Florida
An aircraft carrier? Sherman tank?

Seriously, I wanted one as I liked the action and the sounds, but the darn thing was just too huge. Even the 70 was huge.

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#2909608 - 02/14/18 01:37 PM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: Stokely]
eric Offline
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Registered: 01/25/02
Posts: 6358
Loc: Virginia
Tonysounds has an MP7 that he bought sight-unseen after I (along with a few others) recommended it after trying it out at NAMM. I know he has been very happy with it, but probably the weight is a bit cumbersome.

Not sure if Tony will notice this thread, but if you get more serious about the Kawai, could be good to start a dedicated thread on this.

I am using a single NS2 or NS2 EX as my gigging board. If I ever went back to a two keyboard rig, I would strongly consider the MP7 along with a clonewheel.

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#2909732 - 02/14/18 09:59 PM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: eric]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3839
Loc: Westville, IN
I had an MP7 for a couple of years, supplied as part of a church gig. It was fairly compact (wheels above the keys, like the S80/90), and didn't feel all that heavy when I had to move it (46 lbs, IIRC). The pianos were extremely playable, and sounded great. Also, I found the Rhodes and clavs to be solid; meanwhile the Wurli was insanely good. The B3 model was very well done; granted the drawbars are split, 4x2 (plus a knob), but tone-wise it easily rivals the RD-2000's VK engine.

The synth engine didn't blow me away, right out of the box. But the raw materials are all there - lots of potential for vintage patches. And the ROMpler engine is well rounded; the FX engine as well. For the money, you won't find another comprehensive 4-zone MIDI controller like this either.

Guessing that the new, piano samples / sound set in the SE will make this a rather badass axe.
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#2909744 - 02/14/18 11:38 PM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: GRollins]
Pianolando Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/14
Posts: 20
CP4 is great, Better piano sounds than S90-X, better action, but obviously much more limited as it can only use two sounds in a layer plus one lower, splitter sound. Piano and EPS are great, the other sounds very usable but some a bit dated. Weighs very little as well which is a great thing if you gig.

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#2910324 - 02/17/18 11:59 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: Outkaster]
rickp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/17/14
Posts: 305
Originally Posted By: Outkaster
The S90XS is perfect for what I need but I wanted to see what's out there that might be a little more new and as I suspected not much.

Personally, Iíve adopted the ďage doesnít matterĒ philosophy. Iíve shifted my focus from the age of my keyboards to how well they do the job needed (which, perhaps not coincidentally, is how I hope I and my fellow musicians are assessed since weíve drifted into our 60ís).

My S90ES is older than your XS (in fact, part of my departure from always chasing the newest keyboards came when I tried the XS but didnít like the AP sounds as well as the ES for band settings) but itís still the board Iíll grab every time to sit under an SK1 for a horn band or classic rock gig. For something pianocentric, the CP4 does everything I could reasonably want or ask of a digital board, regardless of its age. And for piano duty in a reunion blues and southern rock bandís rather rowdy outings (with a dedicated Hammond player) that often calls for having the touch of a blacksmith, my rather long-in-the-tooth CP33 fits the bill perfectly.

I may very well be wrong, but I think I get better incremental gains on stage from spending more rehearsal time playing what I have than I would from switching to and learning and reprogramming newer boards. To me, there came a point in time that high-end keyboards got good enough that newer stopped being decisively better. Fortunately for keyboard manufacturers, there are many here who would disagree. But - there is an area where I think newer can be decisively better (unless youíre already in boutique levels like Chuck and Dave) and that breathes new life and excitement into playing, and thatís in the interface and speaker departments. If the age rather than the capability of your XS is the primary factor and you still enjoy gigging with it, perhaps hooking it to something like the new K.2s through a Key Largo may be the update that would make you smile more than a newer board would?
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#2910337 - 02/17/18 01:48 PM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: Pianolando]
Dave Ferris Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 5963
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: Pianolando
CP4 is great, Better piano sounds than S90-X, better action, but obviously much more limited as it can only use two sounds in a layer plus one lower, splitter sound. Piano and EPS are great, the other sounds very usable but some a bit dated. Weighs very little as well which is a great thing if you gig.


Andreas -- really excellent playing and compositions. Really enjoyed the lyrical Remembering You and your Song for Siri. Very beautiful. Butterflies was great, I heard a tiny bit of a Chickish influence going on in certain spots. Top notch stuff ! Nice to hear all real instruments too.
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#2910362 - 02/17/18 05:00 PM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: Dave Ferris]
CEB Offline
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Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 13030
I like the ES's S700 pianos. The S6 pianos on the XS were honked up.
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#2910365 - 02/17/18 05:15 PM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: CEB]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 5963
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
I had the S90Es for all of four days awhile back. It was while I owned my first CP5. So probably around 7 years ago maybe.

I found a barely used one on CL out in Camarillo. I paid a grand for it and it was in brand new condition. Still had the plastic on the data window.

I too was intrigued by the 90ES piano sound hearing Jeff Lorber, among others, sing its praises and hearing some you tube stuff where he was still using it at the time.

Got it home on a Thursday afternoon and A/B'd with the CP5. Immediately I thought uh oh, this sounds like crap and plays like crap compared to the CP5. But then I thought, ok give it a couple days, maybe something about it will connect with you.

By Monday morning I put it on the LA CL for a grand. Within an hour someone contacted me, drove up from San Diego and bought it. Basically all I lost was time and gas money out and back to Camarillo.

I think a large part of my disconnect with the S90/Motif and even the Montage 88 I played is the balanced action. Not substantial enough for me compared to their digital pianos. Too synthy feeling.
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#2910369 - 02/17/18 05:27 PM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: rickp]
Outkaster Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 6291
Loc: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: rickp
Originally Posted By: Outkaster
The S90XS is perfect for what I need but I wanted to see what's out there that might be a little more new and as I suspected not much.

Personally, Iíve adopted the ďage doesnít matterĒ philosophy. Iíve shifted my focus from the age of my keyboards to how well they do the job needed (which, perhaps not coincidentally, is how I hope I and my fellow musicians are assessed since weíve drifted into our 60ís).

My S90ES is older than your XS (in fact, part of my departure from always chasing the newest keyboards came when I tried the XS but didnít like the AP sounds as well as the ES for band settings) but itís still the board Iíll grab every time to sit under an SK1 for a horn band or classic rock gig. For something pianocentric, the CP4 does everything I could reasonably want or ask of a digital board, regardless of its age. And for piano duty in a reunion blues and southern rock bandís rather rowdy outings (with a dedicated Hammond player) that often calls for having the touch of a blacksmith, my rather long-in-the-tooth CP33 fits the bill perfectly.

I may very well be wrong, but I think I get better incremental gains on stage from spending more rehearsal time playing what I have than I would from switching to and learning and reprogramming newer boards. To me, there came a point in time that high-end keyboards got good enough that newer stopped being decisively better. Fortunately for keyboard manufacturers, there are many here who would disagree. But - there is an area where I think newer can be decisively better (unless youíre already in boutique levels like Chuck and Dave) and that breathes new life and excitement into playing, and thatís in the interface and speaker departments. If the age rather than the capability of your XS is the primary factor and you still enjoy gigging with it, perhaps hooking it to something like the new K.2s through a Key Largo may be the update that would make you smile more than a newer board would?


Rick I hear you and I know what you are saying but I feel good gear and very good sounds can at least help you put your best foot forward. With pianos it's so hard, at least for me because I was and am a "trained" musician so to speak. With that comes the curse of wanting things to be exact or as close as I can get to the original experience of playing the real thing. If there is something that is small in some piece of gear that you can't get by it becomes big over time. I feel that way about the whole clonewheel thing also but am trying to get out of it since it's a dead end. I really wish gigging musicians were thought of by these companies more than they are.
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#2910427 - 02/18/18 07:30 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: rickp]
dongna Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/05
Posts: 392
Originally Posted By: rickp
Personally, Iíve adopted the ďage doesnít matterĒ philosophy. ... My S90ES is older than your XS ... but itís still the board Iíll grab every time to sit under an SK1 for a horn band or classic rock gig.

I will +1 this sentiment. I, too, have an S90ES that is still my go-to board-- oftentimes my only board-- for band situations. I routinely get compliments for my sounds (if not my playing smile ) from band members and audience alike. The only area it really falls completely flat is B3, but that is a well-documented Yamaha weakness.

I've been reading the thread from the beginning and have refrained from commenting until now, but with due respect to the OP the whole things kinda strikes me as a solution in search of a problem. idk

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#2910531 - 02/18/18 05:37 PM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: Outkaster]
rickp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/17/14
Posts: 305
Absolutely understand wanting piano action and sound as close as possible to the real thing, Iíll jump on my Kawai or even the CP4 every time over the S90ES for strictly AP work or play. No doubt, the piano/synth action Yamaha puts in its combo piano/synth boards isnít as satisfying for piano work as the real thing, although to my feel at least, they did tilt the action more in the piano direction than synth, and as one who trained and came up playing piano, Iím grateful for that. I donít know, I think I decided long ago that the challenge of adapting to the action of whatever piano a venue expected me to play or to whatever board worked best for a particular gig is just part of being a working pianist/keyboardist (and I derive a strange satisfaction from knowing that many excellent guitar and bass players would flip out if they had a similar challenge).

I sure agree wholeheartedly it would be nice if manufacturers thought more of the needs and wants of live gigging musicians (I wonder if they ever seek out the wishlists of folks beyond a limited circle) so that weíre not so often unfortunately left with having to choose between (or more accurately, balancing compromises between) playability and capability. Or else weíre left with the inefficient and expensive outcome of needing several instruments to best fit several various purposes. With no intention of being presumptuous, fwiw, it seems to me youíre left with choosing between those compromises or having separate sets of instruments for growth/development and performance. (btw, Iím envious that youíre taking lessons again)
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#2910544 - 02/18/18 07:16 PM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: Outkaster]
The_Star_Guy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 275
Loc: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Originally Posted By: Outkaster
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
A fwiw, the new sample in the Kawai MP7SE and upgraded action made a huge improvement over the original in my short time with it at NAMM -- and that was with low grade phones. If at all possible I would give that a try.

I would also second the suggestion for the Grandstage. Very nice. Just quick impressions on that -- it would sound better in a band then what you get playing it solo.

I like the RD2000 a lot as well. Like I've posted before though, a little slower with regard to being responsive sound and action for Jazz compared to the CP4. But it's certainly a great ax albeit at the heavier weight.

If I were getting a second gigging keyboard - with a little more firepower then the CP4 for stuff other then straight-ahead Jazz- I would choose the Korg personally.

One more fwiw, I heard Mitch Forman last month at the Baked Potato and he was still using the S90 classic. Worked for him. smile I think I sold mine to get the CP5 in 2010.


Dave I just saw some video for that Kawai MP7SE. How was the action?


I played the new updated Kawai MP7SE 3 days in a row at NAMM and it became one of my personal favorites there. Not only for the new samples but especially for the upgraded action, which is now the same as the Kawai ES8. It is Kawai's RHIII triple sensor action, which is fast, accurate and very playable. As an example, I can easily do trill's on this particular keyboard. You might be able to find an ES8 at a Kawai home dealer in-stock to try it out for yourself. And given it's extensive flexibility it would make a very competent replacement for a Yamaha S-90 SX, IMO.
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#2910548 - 02/18/18 07:37 PM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: The_Star_Guy]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 6464
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Itís 49.6lbs
But I love the ES8 action.
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#2910571 - 02/19/18 12:03 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Iconoclast Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 526
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
I had an S90xs and was happy to finally get rid of it. The pianos were good but I really wasn't in love with just about everything else about it. And the action wasn't that great in my opinion. I always felt that when playing fast it would sometimes miss notes.

The pianos in it sat good in a rock mix, I'll give it that. The L hand kind of conveniently disappeared as opposed to conflicted with guitar.

But the organs sounded fake and the syths were a little to pristine for me. Plus the interface was just too complicated. And it was probably the largest 88 I've ever owned.

I now have both a Forte 7 and a NS3 88 to fill that hole in the studio and prefer either to the S90xs.

If my memory serves, I would say the Forte's action is more similar to the S90xs. The NS3 88 is a little heavier and maybe more suited to pure piano players.
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#2910582 - 02/19/18 03:45 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: ElmerJFudd]
The_Star_Guy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 275
Loc: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Itís 49.6lbs
But I love the ES8 action.


Kawai MP7SE is 46 lbs

Yamaha S90 SX is 49.38 lbs

And I love the ES8 action as well.

rockit

Great move by Kawai to use this action elsewhere in their product line. IMO, only the CP4 action is even competitive, and it is still mostly a matter of individual taste.
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#2910604 - 02/19/18 05:45 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: Dave Ferris]
Pianolando Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/14
Posts: 20
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Originally Posted By: Pianolando
CP4 is great, Better piano sounds than S90-X, better action, but obviously much more limited as it can only use two sounds in a layer plus one lower, splitter sound. Piano and EPS are great, the other sounds very usable but some a bit dated. Weighs very little as well which is a great thing if you gig.


Andreas -- really excellent playing and compositions. Really enjoyed the lyrical Remembering You and your Song for Siri. Very beautiful. Butterflies was great, I heard a tiny bit of a Chickish influence going on in certain spots. Top notch stuff ! Nice to hear all real instruments too.


Thank you for those words, that was so kind of you!

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#2910622 - 02/19/18 07:08 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: rickp]
Outkaster Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 6291
Loc: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: rickp
Absolutely understand wanting piano action and sound as close as possible to the real thing, Iíll jump on my Kawai or even the CP4 every time over the S90ES for strictly AP work or play. No doubt, the piano/synth action Yamaha puts in its combo piano/synth boards isnít as satisfying for piano work as the real thing, although to my feel at least, they did tilt the action more in the piano direction than synth, and as one who trained and came up playing piano, Iím grateful for that. I donít know, I think I decided long ago that the challenge of adapting to the action of whatever piano a venue expected me to play or to whatever board worked best for a particular gig is just part of being a working pianist/keyboardist (and I derive a strange satisfaction from knowing that many excellent guitar and bass players would flip out if they had a similar challenge).

I sure agree wholeheartedly it would be nice if manufacturers thought more of the needs and wants of live gigging musicians (I wonder if they ever seek out the wishlists of folks beyond a limited circle) so that weíre not so often unfortunately left with having to choose between (or more accurately, balancing compromises between) playability and capability. Or else weíre left with the inefficient and expensive outcome of needing several instruments to best fit several various purposes. With no intention of being presumptuous, fwiw, it seems to me youíre left with choosing between those compromises or having separate sets of instruments for growth/development and performance. (btw, Iím envious that youíre taking lessons again)


Lessons are hard Rick. Older parents, running a band, kids and so forth. Lucky I can practice on my lunch. The nursing school next store has a grand piano so it saves time. I did here at one point that some manufacturers lurk on this board sometimes. I am interested in the Kawai.


Edited by Outkaster (02/19/18 07:09 AM)
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#2910628 - 02/19/18 07:29 AM Re: Replacement for S-90 XS [Re: The_Star_Guy]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 6464
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Originally Posted By: The_Star_Guy
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Itís 49.6lbs
But I love the ES8 action.


Kawai MP7SE is 46 lbs

Yamaha S90 SX is 49.38 lbs

And I love the ES8 action as well.

rockit

Great move by Kawai to use this action elsewhere in their product line. IMO, only the CP4 action is even competitive, and it is still mostly a matter of individual taste.


Someone isnít being honest. US retailer says itís 46lbs, but Kawai specs say itís 22.5kg which is 49.6lbs.
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