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#2909204 - 02/13/18 05:42 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: ITGITC?]
joegerardi Offline
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Originally Posted By: ITGITC?
There's hammer action. Then there's everything else.


Kind of an arrogant statement, don't you think?

To an organist, there's unweighted, then there's everything else.

To a pipe organist, there's tracker action, then there's everything else.

To a Hammond player, there's waterfall, then there's everything else.

To a harpsichordist, there's the harpsichord action, then there's everything else.

To a synth player, there's the synth keybed, then there's everything else.

Not really cool to diminish everyone else's preference, just because they're not a pianist.

Quote:
Real pianists simply do not like semi weighted keybeds

teashea, I call bullshit: I'm a "real" pianist, 15 years of lessons, majored in performance piano in college, and I would jump on an 88 key light action in a minute. Yes, I CAN play Chopin on them. And Fliszt. And Rachmininoff. With proper expression. In fact, I'm looking at a Kronos LS for that very reason.

It's a keybed. If you can control the muscles of your fingers to hit the right notes, then you can control them to play in any style. And on any keybed. And at any speed.

it just depends on how hard you're willing to practice.

And how much you're not going to be a pompous ass about it.

..Joe
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#2909209 - 02/13/18 06:01 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: joegerardi]
ITGITC? Offline
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Joe, check your messages.

Tom
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#2909217 - 02/13/18 06:37 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Donsta]
Al Coda Offline
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My prefered synth actions were DX7 / DX7mkII / KX76,- but I doubt these were "semi weighted".

My prefered "semi weighted" synth action is Fatar TP9S (Kurzweil PC361 / PC3K6 and IIRC,- also in the Minimoog D reissue).

When I set the keyboard action map in the PC361 to "TP40L", which is the action the internal programs are designed for, I can play any program/setup on that action.
But because I own a 88 fully weighted keys bottom board, I combine it w/ the TP9S action.

I´d really wish to get a MIDI masterkeyboard w/ the features of the Viscount Physis Piano K4/K5 controllers and offering a 76-keys Fatar TP9S action.

Listen Viscount,- please make me a Physis K7 !
And I prefered it in black finish, not blue ... if possible. grin

A.C.

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#2909219 - 02/13/18 06:41 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: joegerardi]
Reezekeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: joegerardi
Originally Posted By: ITGITC?
There's hammer action. Then there's everything else.


It's a keybed. If you can control the muscles of your fingers to hit the right notes, then you can control them to play in any style. And on any keybed. And at any speed.

it just depends on how hard you're willing to practice.

..Joe

I agree with both Joe and ITGITC; perhaps it's just semantics. I don't distinguish between different "non-hammer" actions. Of course there's great variability between them - mostly in the resistance of the the springs – or maybe some put weights in the keys. Still, "action" to me relates to the physical sensation you have of pressing down a key. Hammer actions have the haptic feedback that you get from the escapement mechanism - or whatever the manufacturer does to simulate the escapement mechanism. Purely spring-loaded actions don't give you that particular feedback. That's my uninformed opinion anyway, I'm happy to be corrected if I have any facts wrong. Speaking for myself only, I consider myself a pianist and play my acoustic piano plugin happily on my Roland synth-action board – so yea, teashea, it was a little presumptious to say what a "real" pianist wants to play on.

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#2909230 - 02/13/18 07:09 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Reezekeys]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Blanket statements are always loaded, prone to offense or disagreement. No big deal. I'll offer the other perspective... we thankfully have many choices available to us, given the choice I'd prefer to play an instrument that has weight and swing to it when playing material that was written for acoustic pianos. Feels better, feels right, reacts more similarly to instruments I grew up playing. Yes of course I can play that kind of material on an organ-like action, but it's not enjoyable - time spent practicing on it or not. But, no two actions are identical on acoustic or digital instruments for a variety of reasons - so we are always adjusting in real time to the instrument we are on at the moment (and the patch we are currently playing).
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#2909244 - 02/13/18 08:09 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Reezekeys Offline
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With gear it's always about choices. If it weren't for shleprosy I might be playing a weighted action board now. I look at it like this: the escapement mechanism of a real acoustic piano has a design that allows for very nuanced control of that hammer before it "escapes" on it's journey to strike the string(s). The "escapement mechanism" of a weighted action controller keyboard is, at the end of the day, transmitting a midi velocity number between 1 and 127; same as the unweighted board. Of course you may prefer its familiar "feel" - which as you say, "reacts more similarly to instruments I grew up playing." My point is that I've spent enough time playing my virtual AP with my synth action to make it feel familiar to me.

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#2909253 - 02/13/18 08:31 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Reezekeys]
Adan Offline
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For most of us, our keyboard equipment decisions are based on the fact that our time is limited and so, for instance, we don't the the luxury of developing an at-home piano technique and a separate on-the-gig piano technique.
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#2909256 - 02/13/18 08:39 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Adan]
ApprenticeGary Offline
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My fantom x6 ‘ action feels so much better than my nord electro 5d..Pure action wise, the jupiter 50 might feel the same as the fantom, but I like fantom’s sounds better, which makes the keys “feel better”.
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#2909263 - 02/13/18 09:14 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Reezekeys]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
With gear it's always about choices. If it weren't for shleprosy I might be playing a weighted action board now. I look at it like this: the escapement mechanism of a real acoustic piano has a design that allows for very nuanced control of that hammer before it "escapes" on it's journey to strike the string(s). The "escapement mechanism" of a weighted action controller keyboard is, at the end of the day, transmitting a midi velocity number between 1 and 127; same as the unweighted board. Of course you may prefer its familiar "feel" - which as you say, "reacts more similarly to instruments I grew up playing." My point is that I've spent enough time playing my virtual AP with my synth action to make it feel familiar to me.


Unless I'm misreading you, you seem to be using the term escapement in a non-traditional sense of the word. Maybe there are a few sophisticated DP actions that have the equivalent of the escapement mechanism (technically double escapement), I don't know. I know there was a high-end Roland DP action that simulates the escapement bump (the slight resistance point you feel when playing a note softly), but it only simulates this artifact and does not provide actual double escapement.

Acoustic piano keys are weighted. Without the weights, you would essentially have the feel of a Rhodes.

Busch.

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#2909273 - 02/13/18 09:52 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: burningbusch]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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And Rhodes are hit and miss in their playability like few other keyboard instruments post WWII.
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#2909283 - 02/13/18 10:37 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: burningbusch]
Reezekeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
With gear it's always about choices. If it weren't for shleprosy I might be playing a weighted action board now. I look at it like this: the escapement mechanism of a real acoustic piano has a design that allows for very nuanced control of that hammer before it "escapes" on it's journey to strike the string(s). The "escapement mechanism" of a weighted action controller keyboard is, at the end of the day, transmitting a midi velocity number between 1 and 127; same as the unweighted board. Of course you may prefer its familiar "feel" - which as you say, "reacts more similarly to instruments I grew up playing." My point is that I've spent enough time playing my virtual AP with my synth action to make it feel familiar to me.


Unless I'm misreading you, you seem to be using the term escapement in a non-traditional sense of the word. Maybe there are a few sophisticated DP actions that have the equivalent of the escapement mechanism (technically double escapement), I don't know. I know there was a high-end Roland DP action that simulates the escapement bump (the slight resistance point you feel when playing a note softly), but it only simulates this artifact and does not provide actual double escapement.

Acoustic piano keys are weighted. Without the weights, you would essentially have the feel of a Rhodes.

Busch.

Well I did cover my ass in a previous post by saying "I'm happy to be corrected if I have any facts wrong." smile

"Weighted", "hammer-action"... I guess I see them as the same. "Traditional" piano-feel would be another term I'd use. I thought "escapement" referred to the action in an acoustic piano where the hammer is driven upwards by the key's fulcrum mechanism, which produces the "bump" we know. I assumed that the DPs that tout this are not using actions that are like real pianos, but somehow simulate the "bump."

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#2909288 - 02/13/18 10:51 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Reezekeys]
burningbusch Offline
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The modern use of the term escapement is actually double escapement, i.e. the hammer not fully returning which allows for quicker double strikes. The bump is an artifact of the double escapement mechanism. I don't know of double escapement being implemented in DPs outside of something like the AvantGrand, which is a full acoustic piano action.

Busch.

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#2909330 - 02/13/18 01:12 PM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: burningbusch]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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The Kawai Novus thing will be an acoustic grand action as well.
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#2909381 - 02/13/18 04:51 PM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Markyboard]
tfort Online   content
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Registered: 05/06/16
Posts: 246
Originally Posted By: Markyboard

Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd

Marky - the Kontakt controllers are Fatar TP-8 (maybe TP-9?) actions like just about every other controller, synth not made by Roland/Korg/Yamaha/Casio/Kawai. Anything else that you like about their controller?


My comment was strictly based on the feel and ability to control a piano/Rhodes type soft synth within the category that Jazz+ was inquiring about; 49/61 keys,portable usb. I believe the Kontrol uses the TP-9s. Aside from feel/response I'm not a big fan of this controller as is doesn't handle external keyboards very well.

The only other dedicated controller I'm aware of that uses the TP/9S is the Novation SL Mk II series. The velocity curves on these suck imo. I don't think any Nord falls into the category being asked about although I may have misunderstood the intent here.


I believe the S61 and S61Mk2 use the TP9/S. The feel should be very similar in the cheaper Studiologic Compact 2 and similarly priced Compact 2X (when it becomes available) which use the TP9/P. All those boards are TP9 boards with aftertouch.

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#2909396 - 02/13/18 06:33 PM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: joegerardi]
ITGITC? Offline
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Originally Posted By: joegerardi
Originally Posted By: ITGITC?
There's hammer action. Then there's everything else.


Kind of an arrogant statement, don't you think?

To an organist, there's unweighted, then there's everything else.

To a pipe organist, there's tracker action, then there's everything else.

To a Hammond player, there's waterfall, then there's everything else.

To a harpsichordist, there's the harpsichord action, then there's everything else.

To a synth player, there's the synth keybed, then there's everything else.

Not really cool to diminish everyone else's preference, just because they're not a pianist.

Quote:
Real pianists simply do not like semi weighted keybeds

teashea, I call bullshit: I'm a "real" pianist, 15 years of lessons, majored in performance piano in college, and I would jump on an 88 key light action in a minute. Yes, I CAN play Chopin on them. And Fliszt. And Rachmininoff. With proper expression. In fact, I'm looking at a Kronos LS for that very reason.

It's a keybed. If you can control the muscles of your fingers to hit the right notes, then you can control them to play in any style. And on any keybed. And at any speed.

it just depends on how hard you're willing to practice.

And how much you're not going to be a pompous ass about it.

..Joe


To clarify my post within the original context. I wrote, "Agreed. Semi-weighted action is a marketing misnomer. There's hammer action. Then there's everything else. And you simply have to put your hands on the keyboard to see if its action works for your needs."

As a pianist who has played many types of actions, I have found that I play much better on a hammer action than any other.

Simple, huh?

I fail to understand why the person who posted the response above thinks that mine is an arrogant statement then mockingly lists actions that may be suitable for players of other instruments. He states that I am diminishing everyone else's preference because they're not a pianist. No. I am simply stating that I play better on a keyboard with hammer action.

Later in his post he attacks another member of this forum and exclaims how he is a "real" pianist and goes on to make a list to justify his demeaning comments. This certainly is not warranted.

After "calling bullshit" (his words) and suggesting to the forum member that he is a pompous ass (again, his language), it made me think that there could be personal problems that are greatly troubling him, as this is plainly reflected in his angry post. Wanting to offer the opportunity to make things right, I sent a private message asking him to clarify his position and edit his post. Although I requested this multiple times, his original post remains unchanged, as seen above.

Ladies and gentlemen of this forum, I have been posting here for many years. There was a time when the people here felt like family. I made the remark repeatedly how it was like meeting old friends at a corner bar on a Saturday afternoon, enjoying good conversation and a cold beverage.

Those who have met me know that it has never been my intention to deliver a statement that in any way would be arrogant or hurtful. However, if you tolerate those who perpetuate this type of attitude, if you are complicit and don't call it out, good members will leave and potential new members will go elsewhere.

Finally, none of us know what others here are going through in their daily lives. Many have problems that they are facing and visit this forum to try to forget about them and be around friends - or at least be in a friendly environment. It would be wise for all of us to practice tolerance and kindness whenever we are given the opportunity.

Thanks.

Tom

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#2909398 - 02/13/18 06:39 PM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: ITGITC?]
Adan Offline
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Not the first such post I've seen from joegirardi. To some people, the internet looks like a big punching bag on which they can vent their frustrations.
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#2909399 - 02/13/18 07:01 PM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Adan]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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It's a big world, you run into lots of people.
Sometimes you just don't speak the same language even if it's English and you're talking about piano keyboards.
Good thing we keep certain topics out of here, lest we see heads butt far more frequently.
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#2909454 - 02/14/18 05:41 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Adan]
joegerardi Offline
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Originally Posted By: Adan
Not the first such post I've seen from joegirardi.


And certainly won't be the last.

Please learn to spell my name correctly when you take it in vain.

And Tom, the reason I took umbrage is because your post tends to make it look like hammer keys are somehow ABOVE every other type of action:
"There's hammer action. Then there's everything else."

Which implies they are above or better than all other actions.

Which - by extension - would also imply that (for example) Williams digital pianos' action are above everything else, no? I mean, they're hammer actions, aren't they? So are you categorically stating THOSE before all other action?

So, yeah, I think it arrogant to state that one is above all others without the codicil explaining to what you're referring.

And I stand by that.

..Joe
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#2909460 - 02/14/18 06:10 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: tfort]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: tfort


I believe the S61 and S61Mk2 use the TP9/S. The feel should be very similar in the cheaper Studiologic Compact 2 and similarly priced Compact 2X (when it becomes available) which use the TP9/P. All those boards are TP9 boards with aftertouch.


I'm not familiar with those Studiologic boards but you very well may be right. Either way I suspect these are not what Jazz+ had in mind.

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#2909466 - 02/14/18 06:24 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: ITGITC?]
Markay Offline
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Tom, in my albeit short period of forum membership compared to yours, I cannot recall a post you have contributed that has been anything other than humorous and/or informative and graciously worded. Including your posts in this thread.

More beer cheers
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#2909471 - 02/14/18 06:59 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Markay]
Adan Offline
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Saying Tom is arrogant, in the relative context of this forum, is like passing by the tigers and pythons at the zoo, pointing to the panda bear and saying "look at that how that vicious creature is tearing up those shoots and leaves."

This is a thread titled "semi-weighted keyboards." If you can't remain calm and objective about a subject like this, then I think you own your problems. Not trying to pick a fight with anyone, but I think Tom deserves a strong defense here.


Edited by Adan (02/14/18 07:01 AM)
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#2909480 - 02/14/18 07:48 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: joegerardi]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: joegerardi
And Tom, the reason I took umbrage is because your post tends to make it look like hammer keys are somehow ABOVE every other type of action:
"There's hammer action. Then there's everything else."

Which implies they are above or better than all other actions.

I see how you can take it that way, but it does not have to be taken that way,
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#2909622 - 02/14/18 02:11 PM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: AnotherScott]
stoken6 Offline
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I didn't take Tom's comment as a snark or any kind of arrogance. Merely that he classifies all non-hammer actions in one category. (I don't actually think Tom is capable of snark. Beer, yes, but not snark).

Am I right that all hammer actions (Casio, Kawai, TP100, TP40 etc.) use gravity to return the key to horizontal? So maybe the distinction is between "gravity return" and "sprung return".

Cheers, Mike
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#2909629 - 02/14/18 02:22 PM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: ITGITC?]
timwat Offline
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Originally Posted By: ITGITC?
Those who have met me know that it has never been my intention to deliver a statement that in any way would be arrogant or hurtful. However, if you tolerate those who perpetuate this type of attitude, if you are complicit and don't call it out, good members will leave and potential new members will go elsewhere.

Finally, none of us know what others here are going through in their daily lives. Many have problems that they are facing and visit this forum to try to forget about them and be around friends - or at least be in a friendly environment. It would be wise for all of us to practice tolerance and kindness whenever we are given the opportunity.

Thanks.

Tom



Tom, I concur. This forum still represents a community to me, primarily because of the long-term members who have been there for me during some pretty dark times over the years, and I've had the pleasure to help from time to time as well.

And we also talk keyboards here.

From time to time, internet forums like this attract all sorts of folks. Folks with a thinly-veiled agenda, some with an axe to grind, some just looking to troll and piss people off for their own entertainment. Many of these have come and gone in the time I've been here.

I've said it before - I consider Tom a friend though we've yet to meet in person. I dislike it when others inappropriately attribute arrogance and such to my friends, and it tends to piss me off. I also realize everyone's got a burden their carrying, and sometimes we phrase things in ways, that, had we to do over again, we might phrase differently. Or not in some cases.

Nevertheless, for all the shite going on in the world, attributing arrogance to someone over their personal preferences in electronic keyboard actions seems a bit over the top. I hope a little perspective helps us all return to the best versions of ourselves.
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#2909649 - 02/14/18 03:22 PM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: stoken6]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: stoken6
Am I right that all hammer actions (Casio, Kawai, TP100, TP40 etc.) use gravity to return the key to horizontal?

Yes, which is why it is especially important to play them at a proper angle, and be careful about stores that put weighted actions up on high shelves that have to be tilted down... they won't play the same when they're angled.
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#2909690 - 02/14/18 05:19 PM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Markyboard]
tfort Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: tfort


I believe the S61 and S61Mk2 use the TP9/S. The feel should be very similar in the cheaper Studiologic Compact 2 and similarly priced Compact 2X (when it becomes available) which use the TP9/P. All those boards are TP9 boards with aftertouch.


I'm not familiar with those Studiologic boards but you very well may be right. Either way I suspect these are not what Jazz+ had in mind.


Yes, but I mentioned them since they're still supremely portable despite having 88 keys. I am looking for a 73 key waterfall controller; finding none I had been on the fence between the S61 mk2 and the Compact 2, and am now leaning toward the C2X.

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#2909694 - 02/14/18 05:34 PM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: AnotherScott]
ProfD Offline
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Brotha Tom is someone I've known personally for many years now. He isn't snarky or arrogant. Quite the opposite if you know him.

This forum is a great place to hang in general. We have a diverse cast of characters. There is a wealth of knowledge here too.

Internet communication can be a slippery slope because it doesn't always translate tone and/or emotion.

We can agree to disagree but other than an ad hominem attack, there's really no reason to have beef with another forumite and/or get bent outta shape around here.

Any misunderstandings can be resolved in a thread or via PM. cool
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#2909753 - 02/15/18 03:18 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: ProfD]
Dave Ferris Offline
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I don't drink beer or anything else alcohol related for that matter. As hard core as I go is Dr. Pepper but that's just with Mexican food. grin

But maybe I'd make an exception if I met Tom sometime. idea

In fact maybe I'll go visit my friend Jim in Carrboro. He makes really nice bikes. Some of the best on the Planet. drool
http://kishbike.com/

If I do, maybe I'll let Tom ride my bike if he lets me play his Nord. rockit

That's the only conceivable way I can see myself offering an opinion on -- "There's hammer action. Then there's everything else" . keys

I sure hope they have good Mexican restaurants back there where Tom lives. And I hope Tom is buying. Because after one of Jim's bikes, I won't have any money left over for even a Dr. Pepper. cheers
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#2909804 - 02/15/18 06:55 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Dave Ferris]
Adan Offline
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Talk about thread drift . . . semi-weighted keyboards to mountain bikes. Funny to me though because the peak of my mountain biking enthusiasm was when I lived in Durham. Great trails around there. Ultimately, it wasn't good for my back and I had to change my focus.
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#2909833 - 02/15/18 08:32 AM Re: Semi-weighted keyboards? [Re: Dave Ferris]
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Registered: 12/18/02
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
I don't drink beer or anything else alcohol related for that matter. As hard core as I go is Dr. Pepper but that's just with Mexican food. grin

But maybe I'd make an exception if I met Tom sometime. idea

In fact maybe I'll go visit my friend Jim in Carrboro. He makes really nice bikes. Some of the best on the Planet. drool
http://kishbike.com/

If I do, maybe I'll let Tom ride my bike if he lets me play his Nord. rockit

That's the only conceivable way I can see myself offering an opinion on -- "There's hammer action. Then there's everything else" . keys

I sure hope they have good Mexican restaurants back there where Tom lives. And I hope Tom is buying. Because after one of Jim's bikes, I won't have any money left over for even a Dr. Pepper. cheers


Dave Ferris, come for a visit! Have you been to see Jim's shops in Carrboro, or just visited his website? Carrboro is just a spit from UNC Chapel Hill, as you know. I am CERTAIN there's Mexican food, and just about anything else you would like. And although I do like to have a beer or two with friends, I like Dr. Pepper too! No worries!

In my twenties, my wife and I enjoyed bikes. I had a Raleigh. She had a Trek. We weren't serious about it, but we had some great fun taking the bikes to various locations to ride. I have not been to Jim's shop, but I'd enjoy seeing how far the tech has come.

Of course you can play the Electro 3HP! I also have a nice Chickering upright. It needs tuning, but I just have to put this on my schedule. The great thing about that piano is the latency is really, really low! wink

And yes, if you end up buying one of Jim's bikes, we can flip a coin to see who pays for lunch... if you have a coin left over!

Thanks, Dave!

Tom
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"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent.” - Victor Hugo

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