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#2905485 - 01/29/18 04:55 AM Stolen, "borrowed" or what?
whitefang Offline
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Listen to the first @ 0.30 in,


And now THIS--


Bird's came first of course, but didn't get credit for any part of "Hucklebuck"

Know any other examples of this kind of thievery?
Whitefang
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#2905531 - 01/29/18 07:54 AM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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In the realm of pop music (or any music, really) that's hardly uncommon.
In fact the flip side, w/Parker co-opting themes from other songs happened as or more often.
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#2905655 - 01/29/18 02:39 PM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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That sort of thing no doubt went on a lot over the years. I wouldn't mind seeing some other examples though.
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#2905683 - 01/29/18 04:24 PM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Since ya started w/ Parker, how's this ?
The lineage is well established historically.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3ZkMe5762g

Thence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wGJpbPKbz8


Elsewhere we have reason to believe that John Lennon remained Smokey Robinson's biggest fan far past the early days of MoBeatleTownMania.
Compare the opening lyrics of these 2 songs....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClV8SDSnpNc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDqgOoX8Ii4


Further along the rock trail we got the venerable James Patrick Page, who was an undeniable soundscaper, deriving the structure of a couple his biggest hits from the Who's "Magic Bus" & Hendrix's version of "All Along the Watchtower".
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#2905749 - 01/30/18 04:02 AM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Ah, and then of course, there's the "My Sweet Lord"/"He's So Fine" thing. wink

And I too, (and since you brought Lennon into it) often made a comparison of these two tunes.


You might notice....


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#2906118 - 01/31/18 02:33 PM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: whitefang]
desertbluesman Offline
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It all depends on how much of the melody is copied, a few short passages, may not be actionable. I do not know exactly what percentage it takes to get some royalties for copyrighted melodies, but if it varies even a little bit, or it is only short passages, I think it is not considered plagiarism by the courts.

Another thing, management may actually represent the artists that copy one from the other, and those folks ain't going to do court action against another client. I am not sure about any of the above but it is reasonable to assume some of it may be accurate.
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#2906122 - 01/31/18 02:44 PM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: desertbluesman]
whitefang Offline
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Then again, there are those who confuse the long-held practice of "quoting" melodies and passes in their solos, and those who use main themes of other songs for their OWN songs and don't acknowledge the source or give credit or other compensation to the creator. That was the case with "Do The Hucklebuck". Seems some of the principals involved all knew each other. There was some legal action attempted, but got nowhere at the time.
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#2906139 - 01/31/18 04:58 PM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: whitefang]
desertbluesman Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
Then again, there are those who confuse the long-held practice of "quoting" melodies and passes in their solos, and those who use main themes of other songs for their OWN songs and don't acknowledge the source or give credit or other compensation to the creator. That was the case with "Do The Hucklebuck". Seems some of the principals involved all knew each other. There was some legal action attempted, but got nowhere at the time.

If someone influences you on any song even if it is only something spoken that person is legally entitled to 3% of the gross profits, many times no one wants to acknowledge an influence because 3% may be a significant number, and that includes everyone's share not just the author, also the publishing, and the record label.

As the old saying goes;

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
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#2906145 - 01/31/18 05:34 PM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: desertbluesman]
d Offline
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Yes, HS Thompson, trenchant-social-critic-once-at-large !

I forget the exact details but just in the past couple yrs there've been a couple cases where claimants were awarded compensation for a simple rhythmic similarity to a hit record.

Previously claims had to involve lyric or melodic material, which technically, are the the parts that can be claimed as a writer. [Audio recs (P) are a diff matter.]
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#2906234 - 02/01/18 04:20 AM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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I dunno....
3% seems like such an INsignificant number that it makes no sense to me for some artist who makes 6 to 7 figures ordinarily wouldn't head off any legal entanglements at the pass by getting clearance for the music's use beforehand and offering some sort of compensation.

I remember not long ago, about the big "brou-ha" made by Coolio about Weird Al's parody of his "Gangsta's Paradise", claiming Al didn't get his permission to do it. And since Coolio's tune WAS a "copy" of STEVIE WONDER'S "Pastime Paradise", which I've no doubt Coolio did get the go-ahead from Stevie to do, I thought in this case it SHOULD have been Stevie to be the first voice raised in this flap. And since he kept quiet, I wondered what Coolio's problem was.
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#2906384 - 02/01/18 11:58 AM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: whitefang]
Happy Birthday Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Thought I’d drop this here.
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#2906419 - 02/01/18 01:43 PM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Quote:
I dunno....

Maybe the truthiest words ever Spokane (Washingto-cetera)
hitt grin
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#2906421 - 02/01/18 01:46 PM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Thought I’d drop this here.


Dang it, Dan, that hit the spot that we hadn't spotted... like
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#2906437 - 02/01/18 03:30 PM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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British actor John Williams(no relation) back in the '70's did a record promotion where these kind of things were pointed out

For instance...


then....


Whitefang
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#2906779 - 02/03/18 07:43 AM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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I'm unsure at this time abt yer point.
Is it that in some cases artists directly copy another's work or that sometimes a musical idea is repeated similarly ?
...&, either way, what determination should be made abt that ?
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#2906814 - 02/03/18 10:06 AM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: d]
picker Offline
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I read somewhere that good artists borrow, while great artists steal outright.

Makes sense to me...
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#2906825 - 02/03/18 10:42 AM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: picker]
Larryz Offline
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If you don't write your own licks, you're doomed to steal a few. And if you do, you'll probably steal a few from yourself LOL! Nothing borrowed, nothing gained... cool
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#2906865 - 02/03/18 01:27 PM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
If you don't write your own licks, you're doomed to steal a few. And if you do, you'll probably steal a few from yourself


HeadPop grin
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#2906900 - 02/03/18 02:57 PM Re: Stolen, "borrowed" or what? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
I'm unsure at this time abt yer point.
Is it that in some cases artists directly copy another's work or that sometimes a musical idea is repeated similarly ?
...&, either way, what determination should be made abt that ?


Not too difficult. Point being that it showed that some( i just gave one example) of the more "beloved hits" from the 30's and '40's were based on themes "borrowed" from celebrated classical works. But in most of those cases, the source was acknowledged.

Songwriting "legend" Sammy Cahn was reported to say, during George Harrison's troubles over his one song, "I don't know of ONE songwriter, me included, that DOESN'T swipe an idea from another from time to time."
Whitefang
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