My IEM Revelation Has Begun :)

[cphollis]

So, for those of you who know my story? Bar bands. Weak equipment. Small venues. Etc, etc. How do you bring game in a market that only pays $400 for a band?

 

Well, I'm no touring dude, but I knew that IEMs were the answer. I mean, as a technology guy, is there any other answer? I knew it, but I had to convince the other band members that This Is The Way Forward.

 

I now have every member of the band relying on IEMs (including the drummer and lead guitarist!) and dialing in their own "more me" mix. All good. Except me?

 

A few bad experiences with wifi not happening, but we're past that now. You have an iDevice, you're in control of what you hear. Stop whining. Although setting up a stable wifi network with the Behringer X-Air mixer has been a bit of a geek challenge. Which I'm totally up for, BTW.

 

Me? I'm in charge of the FOH mix. Trust me, I know what I'm freakin' doing. Total CD quality joy. I'm not listening to what I want to hear as a keyboard player, I'm listening to what the crowd should be hearing. If a guitar solo isn't coming through, I will take corrective action.

 

Trust, folks.

 

My FOH amplification is modest but completely sonically accurate. Usually a pair of RCF TT08-as, plus a RCF sub. No monitors. Joy! I can bring more, but not required these days.

 

Keys are in the mix, guitars are dialed back appropriately, etc. There's a trust factor involved with the other musos, all good. Stage volume is minimal, except for drums. The lead guitarist has been tamed. Total win. Focus on tone, man, I've got your back covered on amplification.

 

First observation? It's changed how I play. It's all about the blended mix, so not overly aggressive wrt to keys. Tasty, but just another instrument. And, s**t I hear each and every clam I play. Time to step up?

 

Objective achieved. Yes, there was drama, but we're winning the war!

 

Lead guitarist says "I can't hear myself". OK, go to the app, dial in more of yourself? Trust me, if it doesn't sound good, I will correct.

 

I haven't weaned the guitarists from their amps (I'm playing with nothing), but they're now playing at such minimal volume it's not an issue. Just boost the keys a bit, and all will be OK. Bass player is considering playing no amp, because he loves the sound of the IEMs and the FOH.

 

BTW, at rehearsal tonight, the rhythm guitar player totally forgot to plug his DI into his amp. Took him 3 hours to notice it. I wasn't going to say anything ...

 

We are getting huge props from venue managers for our "clean" sound. Highly recommended, and not expensive if you go wired vs. wireless.

 

The evolution of band sound continues ...

[MathOfInsects]

I played my first IEM gig a few days ago. I found positives and negatives. I loved the individual control of my mix, and the clarity of sound, and the relief of not having to worry about ear plugs (and what they might be keeping me from hearing), to keep levels workable.

 

I also found it highly antiseptic, though, and felt it was pushing folks to play more carefully and less adventurously. I would liken it more to a recording-studio experience than a live performance, with the exception that removing one can didn't work in this case because the only sound was FOH--so too delayed to really respond to. I know some people run an ambient mic feed, but it's not really ambience I respond to, but literally sound through air. I can't see forgoing that permanently.

 

Which brings me to what was for me the biggest drawback. I was fine with AP/EP/synth sounds via IEM. But it completely undercut my "relationship" with organ. It almost seemed to render the drawbars useless; I had to just go on faith that the sound I was *hoping* to be getting, was what I was getting. I am unsure that I'm ever going to adjust to hearing organ via IEM's alone.

 

I can see what people like about them, and I liked much of the same elements. But I don't think I see myself going all in any time soon. The elements I value most about playing live are mitigated pretty directly by the in-ear experience.

 

But...again: much to like otherwise.

[cphollis]

Yep, pretty much how I feel. I love tons of amplification on stage, and the "feel". I can do that with my band when it's appropriate, e.g. a festival gig or similar.

 

But our bread and butter is small bar gigs. Can't bring the total sonic game. So we're basically a better jukebox. And that's where this approach is working.

 

One of the big criticisms of IEMs is that they're too sterile, which I agree with. Some new passive IEM monitors are arriving tomorrow (yes, pricey) which are purported to minimize the sterility.

 

I'll let y'all know how it goes. The journey continues?

[EscapeRocks]

You need to get some ambient mics and mix those into your IEM feed.

 

It will remove the sterility of the situation. Or get one of the new high end IEM systems that have ambient built in (very $$$$$$).

 

Once you get the ambient sound into you ears, everything will feel organic again, yet you will still have the perfect mix that you want, at safe levels.

 

My band has been on IEM's for a few years now, and it's totally natural for us, and does not hinder creativity or pushing limits with our playing.

 

For those smaller place where we are at the mercy of a house sound person that doesn't have ambient dialed in, I roll my own with a sensitive omni-directional mic fed to my IEM mixer.

 

Just some ideas for you.

[hardware]

Vented IEMs from JHAudio are a cheap way to get stage ambience too.

 

[BbAltered]

I would love to be able to do this with the 7 piece horn band. So questions:

1) If the sax or trumpet player is blowing into a mic on stage, isn't that mic going to pick up some bleed from other instruments (drums) and then that bleed gets more prominent in the horn players IEM when they try to dial in "more me". How do you get a good horn signal to the horn players IEM?

2) What do you use to mic the drums?

3) Does the Behringer X-Air have 7 physical aux outputs for seven different IEM mixes? I think our current SoundCraft mixer has 6 physical aux outputs, so how then do I make available 7 different IEM mixes?

4) If your band is anything like the horn band, every person in the band is an expert in stage/live sound (they're not always correct, but they are always certain). How do you get all those experts to agree on this sort of big move?

[cphollis]

Lotsa questions!

 

1) Not in a horn band currently, but -- yes -- every mike will pick up some stage bleed. No way around that. However, a horn player's mike will be maybe 95% horn, and 5% bleed, especially if it's got a noise gate set. Noise gates demand a minimum volume level before they'll pass a signal.

 

2) The drums have three mikes: overhead cymbals, bass drum, snare and toms. Drummer hauls around my sub. We don't play big venues, so we're looking to enhance the native sounds of the drums. Seems to work OK.

 

3) Auxes can be a limiting factor on many current mixers. My current X Air has four auxes. Each band member of our five person band gets one, I get the main mix via phones out. Works out OK.

 

If that doesn't work for you, certain musicians will have to share an aux, e.g. bass and drums. Cabling requires things like splitters, as we're not wireless yet.

 

Generating 8 separate aux mixes can be done on something like the QSC TouchMix-30 which has 14 (!!) auxes, but costs $$$. I'm sure other options are available.

 

4) Actually, no one in my current band has much in the way of live sound expertise. They do know what they know, though. Doesn't everyone?

 

Basically, a process of leading from the front + continual suggestions. "Oh, you can't hear yourself? If you were wearing IEMs, we wouldn't be having that discussion." "Oh, does your sound suck? So sad. Not mine, I'm listening to the mains mix, it's great!"

 

We also had a venue tell us to either dial it back or not come back. Sort of got everyone's attention.

 

Best of luck!

[BbAltered]

Thanks for the feedback - I appreciate it.

 

4) Actually, no one in my current band has much in the way of live sound expertise. They do know what they know, though. Doesn't everyone?

 

Yeah, no one in my band has much live sound expertise either. I suspect none of the "experts" in my band know what the mixer channel pre-amp trims do or when one might want to adjust the pre-amp trims (not even the guy functioning as our "sound engineer and mixer"). This sort of "expertise" gets in the way of making good equipment and sound decisions!

[WesG]

Chuck, you likely you know this, but make sure your SSID is hidden, it will stop every other device in the room from doing beacon pings.

 

I'm using a Cisco Aeronet product with my X32, I had a bunch kicking around my garage. I'm setup with static IPs that are reserved from my home network, so I can merge the two networks when it suits me, and build X32 configs from the comfort of the bedroom while the stuff is set up downstairs in the band room. The Aeronet is just acting as a bridge, and is configured to run both radios on whatever channel has the best SNR at the time. So far zero issues.

 

I'm also on the way to IEMs...will get there, slowly but surely. I really want wireless, though, at least for the jamband. "Bobby" and "Jerry" have a really great on-stage dynamic and they move around a lot.

 

[eric]

IEMs are the best! My favorite gear purchase EVER!

 

Glad to hear it is working out well for you and the band. My band is hooked on them (other than our singer who still uses a monitor).

[tfort]

...One of the big criticisms of IEMs is that they're too sterile, which I agree with. Some new passive IEM monitors are arriving tomorrow (yes, pricey) which are purported to minimize the sterility.

 

I'll let y'all know how it goes. The journey continues?

 

What are you going with Chuck, custom? I've read mostly good reports about the Westone Am Pro universal series, in that their vented port doesn't lose as much lower frequency response compared to other vented IEMs. The reviews on Sweetwater aren't good for bass on the Am Pro 10s, mixed on the Am Pro 20's, and mostly good on the Am Pro 30's.

[MAJUSCULE]

I don't have much experience beyond one tour on Shure 215s, but if you're serious about IEMs, y'all should check out Plunge Audio.

[cphollis]

...One of the big criticisms of IEMs is that they're too sterile, which I agree with. Some new passive IEM monitors are arriving tomorrow (yes, pricey) which are purported to minimize the sterility.

 

I'll let y'all know how it goes. The journey continues?

 

What are you going with Chuck, custom? I've read mostly good reports about the Westone Am Pro universal series, in that their vented port doesn't lose as much lower frequency response compared to other vented IEMs. The reviews on Sweetwater aren't good for bass on the Am Pro 10s, mixed on the Am Pro 20's, and mostly good on the Am Pro 30's.

 

The Westone Ambient Pro 30s arrived this afternoon. I'm already in love!

[EscapeRocks]

...One of the big criticisms of IEMs is that they're too sterile, which I agree with. Some new passive IEM monitors are arriving tomorrow (yes, pricey) which are purported to minimize the sterility.

 

I'll let y'all know how it goes. The journey continues?

 

What are you going with Chuck, custom? I've read mostly good reports about the Westone Am Pro universal series, in that their vented port doesn't lose as much lower frequency response compared to other vented IEMs. The reviews on Sweetwater aren't good for bass on the Am Pro 10s, mixed on the Am Pro 20's, and mostly good on the Am Pro 30's.

 

The Westone Ambient Pro 30s arrived this afternoon. I'm already in love!

 

 

[EDinWestLA]

Lots of choices out there. I have UE's myself.

[tfort]

The Westone Ambient Pro 30s arrived this afternoon. I'm already in love!

That sounds promising. Let us know how you feel after some gigs with them. Enough low end? Enough ambient? Enough SPL reduction?

[cphollis]

The Westone Ambient Pro 30s arrived this afternoon. I'm already in love!

That sounds promising. Let us know how you feel after some gigs with them. Enough low end? Enough ambient? Enough SPL reduction?

 

I certainly will. So far, looks very promising in all categories

 

I've spent stupid money on amplification in the past, and it's all worked out AOK. Spending $440 for some killer IEMs, not exactly like I'm jumping off a cliff.

[Nathanael_I]

IEMs are great. Way, way better than crummy loud stage monitor mixes. I've used JH Harvey and 64audio custom moulded. I don't personally mind the clean sound without ambient mic, but we have one, and we can all dial in as much or little as we want.

 

I'd highly recommend spending on good custom moulded units from UA, JH Audio or 64audio. The 10 driver JH audio are the best sounding units I've had, but the seal to my ears has been best in the 64 Audio ones. My current set are 6 drivers, and they are certainly good - but they are not exceptional like the 10 driver JH audio. Spend the $$ - get Fulcrum quality sound for your IEMs... its way cheaper....

[Throbert]

What about IEM mix systems, anyone using them.

[cphollis]

What about IEM mix systems, anyone using them.

 

Can't speak for others, but we're using what others seem to be using around here: a digital mixer that uses wifi and apps to let every muso handle their own mix. Very cost effective, good results.

[cphollis]

...One of the big criticisms of IEMs is that they're too sterile, which I agree with. Some new passive IEM monitors are arriving tomorrow (yes, pricey) which are purported to minimize the sterility.

 

I'll let y'all know how it goes. The journey continues?

 

What are you going with Chuck, custom? I've read mostly good reports about the Westone Am Pro universal series, in that their vented port doesn't lose as much lower frequency response compared to other vented IEMs. The reviews on Sweetwater aren't good for bass on the Am Pro 10s, mixed on the Am Pro 20's, and mostly good on the Am Pro 30's.

 

The Westone Ambient Pro 30s arrived this afternoon. I'm already in love!

 

More on making the shift to IEMs? All is good, mostly. The Behringer X-Air lets you dial in amazing mixes for FOH and whoever gets an aux. Total ecstasy for really short money.

 

Drummer, check. Bass player, check. Rhythm guitarist, check. Keyboard dude (me), check. Lead guitarist is trying hard, but ...

 

When he first got his, his complaint was that he couldn't feel the ambience of the stage and the audience. So he took a pair of scissors to his $200+ IEMs to "fix" the problem.

 

He's a character, I'll give him that.

 

Most rehearsals and gigs, he whines. All of us look at him, and say "dude, this sounds so much better". And he is very frustrated. Doesn't know what to do, even though we're telling him what specific steps to take. Hard to give up the guitar hero / blaring amp thing in favor of tasty sounds.

 

He is blaming me for the IEM thing. Guilty. Hello, you're in charge of your own sound. Not me. If you can't make the IEM thing work, it's your deal, not mine.

 

So suck it up, buttercup. And he is angry. Not my problem, really. Other people have figured it out, you can too.

 

His answer is to bring blaring amps to gigs. And I shut him down: FOH mix as well as dissing him for being immature on stage volume. He is panicking. It's an intervention.

 

BTW, total props for the Westone AM Pro 30s with ambient sound. Get the fit right using their included kit, and it's total ear candy all night long. Yes, I could be spending a whole lot more, and I will at some point.

 

To be totally honest, since I've been monitoring the front mix, it's changing how I'm playing -- all for the better. I'm not listening to myself blaring over the mix, it's all about balance. And my parts are changing as a result.

 

Highly recommended, even if certain folks aren't into it.

 

[Throbert]

All the monitoring systems I've looked at only have network to personnel mix systems.

They all leave out the pre FOH interface that goes between the FOH feeds and FOH snake.

the only thing I've seen that seems to make sense is this

PreSonas

At any rate it seems this could be done so much easier with every feed from each person

going to their own net IO that connects either wired or wireless to a router so every one

else can have access wich leads to the next question: AVB, DANTE, and ultranet are the

few protocals that I've seen mentioned in my recent searches. would love to get some

clarification on all this, seems the more I search the more complicated/ridiculous it gets.

[WesG]

The XR18 does support Ultranet (it is the only mixer in the X-Air line which does, I think), but it is not necessary for the bar-band environment.

 

Ultranet allows you to plug in a personal mixer, eg. the Powerplay P16-M, which lets you control your personal mix with a hardware device instead of a phone. The controls are pretty nice, you select one of 16 channels and can adjust the level, EQ, and limiter. The EQ is three-band with the mid band being a fixed Q parametric.

 

AVB and Dante seem to be different solutions to the same problem. I'm less familiar with these. AVB seems to be used by Avid and Presonus. Dante is an industry standard (AES-3?) and is used by Aviom personal mixers. I think I saw the Santana drummer using an Aviom mixer last year.

 

Dante can travel over layer-2 ethernet. I don't know about AVB. Ultranet uses Cat-5 cable, but does not use ethernet encapsulation. Dante will scale to more ports and more distro (i.e. large LA studio) better than Ultranet will. The X32 line can be expanded to speak Dante by replacing the X-USB card with the X-DANTE card ($499 including candy). At that point, I believe you will have 32 in/out from the card plus your Ultranet distro available. The XR18 cannot speak Dante.

 

For the bar band environment, an iPhone makes way more sense to me than a personal mixing station.

[Dave Keys]

Ive just been down to Custom In Ear Monitors here in the UK. Ive tried out 64 Audio, JH audio and Ultimate Ears IEMs, with a budget of £800. In the end I went with the Jerry Harvey Audio JH11Pros.

 

My requirement with IEMs ranges from small wedding venues in bands with no IEMs, to Touring acts with IEM only stage monitoring. Ive gone with a Zoom H6 as a monitor mixer, as it has limiters and ambient mics built in, should they be necessary.

 

Its been quite a journey...

[J. Dan]

Of course we did it the old fashioned way before digital....16 channel spitter snake. Direct side went to FOH, transformer side to our monitor mixer which was an A&H mix wizard....the only sub $1000 mixer at the time with 6 aux outs. Of course in my projects since, we've gone digital. But the splitter's still not a bad idea logistically when you're running your own monitors and somebody else is handling FOH.

 

As for drummers - I had one still insist on a wedge monitor so he could feel it. Another one, though, has butt kickers attached to his drum throne. Not a bad idea for drummers.

[Reezekeys]

I've been doing a local jazz gig that turned into a once-a-week deal, at least for this month. While I use in-ears for AWB gigs on the road to keep my tinnitus from worsening, I was thinking I'd be alright without any hearing protection for smaller local gigs where we didn't have real stages with monitors or PAs. I think I was wrong; it seems like my T is worse. I'm at a crossroads. I would like to find plugs that really attenuate all frequencies evenly, but barring that, these Westones AM Pro 30s mentioned in this thread are starting to look attractive I did some googling and found mostly glowing testimonials. But, why can't someone come out with a similar product, without the drivers? In other words, plain 'ole hearing protection that simply attenuates what's getting in there without muffling the highs? I know there are many earplugs that claim this ability, but other musicians I talk to who've used them say it's just not true the highs are gone. This was a while ago and I forget the brands involved so maybe there's been some improvement in this area. I do know this: many years ago I bought custom molded plugs. These had tiny interchangeable filter discs with different attenuations. The claim was that all frequencies were attenuated evenly. I found that to be false, in my case at least. I did give it a try anyway but stopped using them after a while, since it made the experience of playing music a complete drag.

 

Anyway, thanks for the mention of these Westones. The reviews are overwhelmingly positive, so I may have to get my wallet out. My current IEMs are MEE M6 Pros - $50 guys that seem to work fine for me, just in terms of protecting my hearing. That's why spending $440 on these Westones without trying them is a little daunting. Of course I know that $440 is nowhere near the high end in IEMs.

[Iconoclast]

I need to insert my standard plea for an ambient microphone mix for anyone who uses in-ears.

 

Personally, I think the constant plea to "make sure you get good IEMs" is really because the mix is SOOOO DRY with IEM's that nothing can make it sound really good, especially if you run the guitars direct from a modeller.

 

So consider that if your IEMs sound dry and ear-spiky, blend an ambient mix into your IEM's.

[Reezekeys]

On the gigs I use my IEMs, I used my cheap Tascam DR-05 handheld recorder's built-in stereo microphone as a stage ambience mic. In record-ready mode (press "record" once), the mic's signal comes out the line/headphone output without recording to the memory card. I was using my audio interface (MOTU Microbook IIc) to mix the mic's signal with my keys, but that's been temporarily retired while I work out some issues with it (I think I just got a dud it ramdomly disconnects from my laptop). Now I'd need a small mixer. This is why those Westones are appealing - no ambience mic or mixer needed (that's the concept anyway).

 

The Tascam recorder solution works pretty well for getting ambience into my IEMs but I wish the mics were a little better quality. Anyone know of a small, stereo, self-powered mic setup? I remember doing some looking a while back and not finding anything.

[mate stubb]

Huh. I don't need an ambient mix blend. We don't run drums or bass into our monitor mixes - they bleed into my cheap in ears satisfactorily. Our bass player uses a small amp and is pretty militant about not playing loud on stage, and not being cranked in the PA. Our drummer uses a tiny set (16" kick!) and plays dynamically. We mix our monitor mix down to the level of the bleeding bass and drums, and voila - an ambient mix at a very reasonable monitoring volume.

 

Of course, when the bandleader goes off list and starts shouting the next song while we are playing, I'm toast...

[timwat]

I never feel like I need ambient in my cans - and the only time I need a substantial amount of house mix is on a wide stage. So many of my corporate / wedding gigs are on small footprints, no drums necessary.

 

What we do is ALWAYS have a monitor-only mic, so the bandleader can speak just to us to call next tune, etc. Works like a charm for us.