Which Windows DAW?

[Mike Warren]

I'm looking for a DAW for general audio/MIDI recording under Windows 10, but I have 2 slightly unusual requirements that are important to me.

 

1/ I need to quickly load general MIDI files, do some basic edits , add some standard effects (mostly to get matched levels and compression) and render them as MP3 or WAV files. I have the Roland Sound Canvas VSTi and ideally, the DAW should be able to automatically load it (or its own GM synth) into each track. I do the same process with each file so want this to be as automated as possible.

 

2/ I need to import a wave file of a performance played in free time and then easily sync the project to it. I remember a very old version of Cubase did this nicely. All I had to do was drag the beat lines to the appropriate position and the tempo map was automatically modified. Sonar 8 was a lot harder to do this with, but still possible.

 

I was about to purchase the latest version of Sonar, just because its the DAW I'm most familiar with, but discovered development has been stopped and it's no longer available for purchase.

 

My next port of call was to check out Cubase as I've had some experience with it many years ago, but I have to buy an eLicencer just to trial the program, so I'd want to have a pretty good idea that I'll be buying Cubase before I even trial it.

 

So I looked at Reaper, mainly because it's so cheap. The last time I checked it out was in 2008. Reaper still feels very unfinished, buggy and difficult to do basic things with. If low cost was the driving factor I'd probably invest the time, but I'd rather pay for something that's exactly what I want and easy to use.

 

I see there are a bunch of other DAWs out there now days, but I have no experience with them.

 

I would like to hear what you use and if you think it will meet my 2 criteria above. I'm trying to minimise the number of programs I need to audition.

 

 

[johnchop]

I thought Cubase allows you to use a soft-licenser, at least for certain versions?

 

 

 

[Al Coda]

Reaper developed a lot since 2008.

If I were you,- I´d download latest Reaper and retry.

Reaper is not much more buggy than other DAW apps are, but it´s different handling of the same processes when coming from any other DAW app.

Since you can download for free and evaluate "as long as you want", you have the option investing more time to learn differences than w/ any other commercial DAW app demo.

Yes, I know,- officially you can use Reaper for free only for 60 days, but the program doesn´t stop working when evaluting longer as also doesn´t come up w/ reduced feature set or noise bursts and such.

And when coming from Sonar,- there´s the Sonar to Reaper Guide for download when scrolling down that site.

And don´t forget downloading SWS Extensions for Reaper and install.

SWS Extensions are described in Reaper manual chapter 5.20 as well.

 

I´m using a combo of Presonus Studio One Pro, Reaper and Reason and for what the apps do best each.

 

For MIDI file import,- read latest Reaper manual > Media Explorer > chapter 4.8 Importing MIDI files.

Also read: 21 "Exporting files, Mixing down & Rendering" and 22 "Preferences and other Settings", 3.42 "Converting Media item Format" and 4.4 "Inserting an Audio File as a new Take" as well.

 

Here´s an SOS article on Reaper tempo mapping from 2011.

The method might be more improved meanwhile since version 5.70 is out since dec. 2017.

 

And don´t forget,- mouse "right click" is one of the main differences between Reaper and other apps.

 

A.C.

 

[Husker]

Cubase Elements ($99) does not require a USB E-Licenser.

[Mike Warren]

I thought Cubase allows you to use a soft-licenser, at least for certain versions?

 

Only Elements, AFAICT.

[Mike Warren]

Reaper developed a lot since 2008.

If I were you,- I´d download latest Reaper and retry.

 

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I've been evaluating Reaper for several days. It is not playing well at all with any of the MIDI files I'm throwing at it. Intermittent stuck notes, plus the import process is nowhere near as smooth as Sonar 8 was.

 

I have a couple of threads open on the Reaper forum, but no solutions yet.

 

Here´s an SOS article on Reaper tempo mapping from 2011.

The method might be more improved meanwhile since version 5.70 is out since dec. 2017.

 

Tempo mapping is still a much more manual process than either Sonar or Cubase were

 

At this point I'm about 80% sure Reaper is not for me. I'll continue to put a few more hours into the stuck notes problem, but I'm not hopeful of finding a solution.

 

I´m using a combo of Presonus Studio One Pro, Reaper and Reason and for what the apps do best each.

 

Do you have any links or thoughts on the 2 tasks I mentioned above on Studio One and Reason?

 

I'm not keen on using more than one program for 2 reasons. I like to get intimate with any complex software I use and don't have enough hours to do that with too many programs, and I don't like that all the programs have proprietary project file formats, so I can't load projects from one DAW into another (well, not easily, anyway).

 

[Mike Warren]

Cubase Elements ($99) does not require a USB E-Licenser.

 

Yes, but I don't tend to look at low end versions of software. The price of the full version is not an issue as long as it does what I want and isn't a time sink. Time is my most valuable commodity now days.

 

The 2 tasks I mentioned in my first post are done often enough that seconds saved there count. They are boring tasks that I just want to get done as quickly as possible.

 

But I've just looked a the comparison table and it's possible Elements would be powerful enough for me, especially since it does appear to support submixes, so I will consider it.

 

 

[Sven Golly]

Presonus Studio One. Your MP3 requirements can be solved with an add-on from them for their Artist (mid-range) version, or is included with Professional.

 

Definitely NOT a time sink.

[Mike Warren]

Presonus Studio One.

 

I am thinking about getting a PreSonus AudioBox 1818VSL for remote recording with my laptop. I believe that comes with Studio One Artist. Buying that and the Artist to Pro upgrade is still cheaper than Cubase Pro. That said, although I don't want to waste money, price is not the driving factor.

 

Your MP3 requirements can be solved with an add-on from them for their Artist (mid-range) version,

 

I couldn't immediately see which add-on you're talking about, and I haven't been able to find a feature comparison between Pro and Artist.

 

Definitely NOT a time sink.

 

That's a huge point in its favour.

 

[Sven Golly]

Your MP3 requirements can be solved with an add-on from them for their Artist (mid-range) version,

 

I couldn't immediately see which add-on you're talking about, and I haven't been able to find a feature comparison between Pro and Artist.

 

Click on the "Compare Versions" link that's just underneath the big banner photo. It takes you here.

 

Definitely NOT a time sink.

 

That's a huge point in its favour.

 

It's got the shortest learning curve of all current DAWs, both in my opinion and in my experience teaching DAWs to clients (I teach everything except Sonar and Reaper, FWIW).

[konaboy]

i use reaper almost daily, albeit as an amateur. plays any midi-file I throw at it, editing midi is a breeze, rock solid, fast, not encountered any bugs.

 

the only drawback compared to other daws is that it does not come with any decent instruments, although the effects are serviceable.

 

it might be worth paying more than reaper if bundled synths and instruments are important to you.

[Polychrest]

Reaper (best bang for the buck) and Studio One (a no-brainer if you're going to use Presonus studio hardware) are good choices. If you're comfortable with Sonar, you might want to check out Acoustica Mixcraft. Ex-Sonar users find it extremely intuitive to learn and say it reminds them a lot of Sonar 8. And it will do what you want.

[Husker]

I thought Cubase allows you to use a soft-licenser, at least for certain versions?

 

Only Elements, AFAICT.

 

 

That is correct - only Elements. I'm a Sonar refugee as well - I went with Cubase, which is going well thus far. I do detest the licensing system. I ended up buying Cubase Pro for home and Cubase Elements for my work Surface.

[Mike Warren]

Click on the "Compare Versions" link that's just underneath the big banner photo. It takes you here.

 

I have no idea how I missed that. Maybe I should be in bed at 1:20 am when I have to get up at 7.

 

Anyway, based on that, the professional version is the only one I'd be interested in.

 

It's got the shortest learning curve of all current DAWs, both in my opinion and in my experience teaching DAWs to clients (I teach everything except Sonar and Reaper, FWIW).

 

I'll definitely give it a try.

 

None of my experience is in recent years, but I've used (in order of competency) Musicator, Sonar, Cubase, Pro Tools, Ableton and Reaper. I was the main beta tested for Musicator for several years.

 

[Mike Warren]

i use reaper almost daily, albeit as an amateur. plays any midi-file I throw at it, editing midi is a breeze, rock solid, fast, not encountered any bugs.

 

Perhaps it's simply that Reaper doesn't play well with the Roland Sound Canvas VSTi, but I have had to render every file multiple times before I could get one without stuck notes. The problem is that some stuck notes can cause subtle errors that may not be picked up on a causal listen. I just can't afford the time.

 

As I said earlier, if price was a driving factor I'd be right into Reaper, but I see better productivity with other programs.

 

 

[Mike Warren]

If you're comfortable with Sonar, you might want to check out Acoustica Mixcraft. Ex-Sonar users find it extremely intuitive to learn and say it reminds them a lot of Sonar 8. And it will do what you want.

 

I'll keep that in mind.

[Stokely]

Reaper seems to be the Windows daw I hear about most. I have messed with it a little, and like most daws at first I found it confusing

 

I've used an old version of Ableton Live, and really enjoyed using it. It's mostly known as a DJ tool I guess, but I found it very easy to do traditional sequencing on. It's not cheap, but it does come with built-in instruments. That said, I've been slowly replacing the built-ins from Logic with 3rd-party anyway, and I get the feeling many end up doing this.

 

Based on the newest macbook pro, which my wife got--I might be moving over as well. Let's say I'm not a fan, especially considering the price. If I do I'll be trying Reaper.

[MusicaL]

Digital Performer from MOTU! I've been using it for more than 10 years (on a mac). It's solid and should allow you to do just about anything you're looking to do.

 

Give it a try. They have a demo download option here.

 

aL

[zephonic]

I'm a longtime Cubase user, but I am not enamoured by the latest iterations, and I really dislike Steinberg's annual update policy.

 

I've been using Studio One Prime for remote recording stuff lately, and really like it. I used the full version trial last year and if I were to start over now, that's the one I'd pick. I'm still thinking I'll purchase the crossgrade at some point.

 

 

 

[Al Coda]

i use reaper almost daily, albeit as an amateur. plays any midi-file I throw at it, editing midi is a breeze, rock solid, fast, not encountered any bugs.

 

Perhaps it's simply that Reaper doesn't play well with the Roland Sound Canvas VSTi, but I have had to render every file multiple times before I could get one without stuck notes. The problem is that some stuck notes can cause subtle errors that may not be picked up on a causal listen. I just can't afford the time.

 

As I said earlier, if price was a driving factor I'd be right into Reaper, but I see better productivity with other programs.

 

Mike, I´ve read all the replies here now ...

Sven is right,- Presonus Studio One Pro is the easiest to learn and works.

Above I mentioned I´m using it too.

In fact it´s my main DAW application,- but I also use Reaper because Studio One doesn´t deal w/ MIDI-SysEx and because Reaper is often lighter on CPU compared to all the other apps I know.

I doubt Reaper is unable mastering your tasks.

 

>>>

Reminders

 

Depending on your host application, system exclusive messages contained in MIDI tracks might not be supported with VSTi or AU plug-ins.

 

The Sound Canvas VA plug-in must initialize its parameters and read various settings when it loads, and this may take about 15 seconds for each plug-in instance. For example, if youre using four Sound Canvas VA plug-in instances in a project, it may take approximately one minute to load all the plug-ins when you open the file (four plug-ins at 15 seconds each). The actual times may vary depending on your computers performance and setup.

 

No plugin bridge will enable to run 32bit SOUND Canvas VA on 64bit OS/DAW environment.

<<<

 

More about Roland Sound Canvas 32Bit and other DAW apps HERE

 

I guess your issues are caused by the Roland SC plugin itself.

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

I'm a longtime Cubase user, but I am not enamoured by the latest iterations, and I really dislike Steinberg's annual update policy.

 

That was the reason I ditched Cubase and switched over to Studio One Pro.

But up to now it doesn´t support MIDI sysex !

 

I understand, Roland Sound Canvas might need sysex for it´s pre-configuration when inserted in a MIDI track,- but I´m not 100% sure.

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

Digital Performer from MOTU!

 

MOTU Digital Performer doesn´t work w/ Roland Sound Canvas at all.

That´s mentioned in the tech specs on Roland website.

 

A.C.

[Mike Warren]

Studio One doesn´t deal w/ MIDI-SysEx

 

What?! That's such basic functionality I would not have even thought to check it. That will probably be a deal breaker for Studio One unless there's a workaround. I don't need SysEx often, but when I need it, I need it.

 

I guess your issues are caused by the Roland SC plugin itself.

 

Quite possibly. But I'm using the 64 bit version with 64 bit Reaper. Maybe I should try the 32 bit versions of both. But regardless, the process for importing MIDI files and creating tempo maps in Reaper is not as efficient as I'd like.

 

[Al Coda]

What?! That's such basic functionality I would not have even thought to check it. That will probably be a deal breaker for Studio One unless there's a workaround. I don't need SysEx often, but when I need it, I need it.

 

It´s evident PSO (Pro included) doesn´t handle MIDI sysex and there´s no workaroud.

 

Maybe it will be added in a update one day.

In fact, I didn´t check too when I bought.

I never did because I also thought EVERY (MIDI-) sequencer can work w/ sysex,- but I failed.

 

A.C.

[Sam Mullins]

What?! That's such basic functionality I would not have even thought to check it. That will probably be a deal breaker for Studio One unless there's a workaround. I don't need SysEx often, but when I need it, I need it.

 

It´s evident PSO (Pro included) doesn´t handle MIDI sysex and there´s no workaroud.

 

Maybe it will be added in a update one day.

In fact, I didn´t check too when I bought.

I never did because I also thought EVERY (MIDI-) sequencer can work w/ sysex,- but I failed.

 

A.C.

 

Ugh. Seems like that should be table stakes for a pro product.

[SeaGtGruff]

One thing to be aware of is that support for SysEx seems to be dying out among DAWs. That is to say, a lot of the newer DAWs-- and by "newer" I guess I mean anything that hasn't been around for a few decades-- do not include any support for SysEx messages, and will actually filter out all SysEx messages from incoming MIDI streams or imported MIDI files. Examples that I'm aware of include Ableton Live, PreSonus Studio One, and Acoustica Mixcraft. Older DAWs such as Steinberg Cubase and Cakewalk SONAR (RIP) do still include support for SysEx; and some of the newer DAWs do, too. And you might not even need any SysEx support, in which case this is a non-issue and you can go on your merry way. But keyboard manufacturers often do make use of SysEx messages to set certain parameters, such as the reverb type or chorus type, or for just about anything else that can't be done using standard MIDI messages, CCs, RPNs, or NRPNs.

[Bill Heins]

I've been a Sonar user for years but scored this as my backup plan

 

http://www.magix.com/index.php?id=24739&L=52&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=mail&utm_campaign=2017_48_SPsut_music_CRG_US&utm_content=SPsut&utm_term=_3845&phash=OuikyuI1i8dKzA7h&AffiliateID=50&phash=1yqXHIJuhlvg4kKM&utm_source=Linkshare&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_campaign=Affiliate_Linkshare&siteID=TnL5HPStwNw-46JhLpy_BKi8CvcolxgVgQ&name=Skimlinks.com&AffiliateID=50&phash=1yqXHIJuhlvg4kKM&utm_source=Linkshare&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_campaign=Affiliate_Linkshare&siteID=TnL5HPStwNw-nKOO4YmL.XnIUehejV0Lgw&name=Skimlinks.com

 

It was 149.00 when I got it before Christmas but even at 199.00 it's quite a deal! Samplitude Pro X3 Suite includes Sound Forge Pro 11 but this deal includes Spectralayers Pro 4 as well Take a look and see if this fits your requirements.

 

Bill

[burningbusch]

Don't know if this was posted earlier, but there's a discounted crossgrade to Studio One Pro available right now.

 

http://blog.presonus.com/index.php/2018/01/15/limited-time-crossgrade-discount-studio-one/

 

Busch.

[Mike Warren]

I've been a Sonar user for years but scored this as my backup plan

 

http://www.magix.com/index.php?id=24739&L=52&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=mail&utm_campaign=2017_48_SPsut_music_CRG_US&utm_content=SPsut&utm_term=_3845&phash=OuikyuI1i8dKzA7h&AffiliateID=50&phash=1yqXHIJuhlvg4kKM&utm_source=Linkshare&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_campaign=Affiliate_Linkshare&siteID=TnL5HPStwNw-46JhLpy_BKi8CvcolxgVgQ&name=Skimlinks.com&AffiliateID=50&phash=1yqXHIJuhlvg4kKM&utm_source=Linkshare&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_campaign=Affiliate_Linkshare&siteID=TnL5HPStwNw-nKOO4YmL.XnIUehejV0Lgw&name=Skimlinks.com

 

It was 149.00 when I got it before Christmas but even at 199.00 it's quite a deal! Samplitude Pro X3 Suite includes Sound Forge Pro 11 but this deal includes Spectralayers Pro 4 as well Take a look and see if this fits your requirements.

 

Bill

 

I downloaded the trial of Sound Forge a few days ago. The UI feels very old so I'm on the fence, however, to get it for $199 along with a couple of other possibly useful programs looks interesting. Looks like I have a couple of days to decide.

 

Funny thing is I can't find that deal if I go to the Magix specials page, so maybe it's not available to Australians.

 

[Bill Heins]

I couldn't find the page going through the Magix site itself either when I picked it up, I just used this link

 

Sound Forge Pro will be updating soon to 64-bit...it and SpectraLayers can also be used within Samplitude as well as standalone.

 

Magix scooped up my Sony apps(Sound Forge Pro and Vegas Pro) so it made sense to go with them.

 

Bill