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#2901738 - 01/12/18 09:34 PM Getting Your Band to IEMs
cphollis Offline
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Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 2365
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
It's been a long journey, but FINALLY I have my band buying into the whole IEM thing. We went budget: $85 Shures, the $49 hard-wired Behringer belt amp.

After a few rehearsals, complaints, etc. they finally bought in. Yes, this is better. The closer is that they're both vocalists, and for the first time, they could actually hear what they were singing. And they sang much better as a result. Win.

The two guitarists now play at minimal volume. A direct out from their amps feed the board. And the wireless app on the Behringer X-Air lets them dial in outrageous guitar and vocal volume. The trust me to put them up in the mix. Which I do.

I have been the instigator. I've played in bands that do IEM. It freakin' completely rocked. Weaning them from stage amplification has been a journey.

Me? I'm monitoring the FOH mix through my IEMs. Trust me, the keys are heard, but not obnoxious. Nice, layered sounds, just as I like. No sound guy required. Of course, if we had access to a decent one, that would be AOK, but not in our world.

Gig tonight? A pair of RCF TT08as as FOH, plus a RCF sub for a bit of thump. I mixed all night long. A bit distracting, but not fatal. I didn't use an amp at all.

The small venue LOVED it. A couple of folks said it was a "CD mix" we were playing. Our regular fans are mightily impressed, although some miss the head-searing volume. I'll take that as a complement.

We were able to play at moderate volumes, and project a studio-quality mix to the audience. Conversations could be had. Waitstaff could understand customer orders without shouting.

The manager gave us super complements, and wants us back more often. The check for the night was larger than usual smile
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Keys: NP2, NS3C, NE4D, DeepMind-12
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#2901778 - 01/13/18 07:30 AM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: cphollis]
Dr88s Offline
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Registered: 05/12/13
Posts: 1195
Loc: Montreal, Canada
This victory story is my eventual goal.
Hearing is just too precious to blow with volume wars when the technology is there and now affordable enough for even the amateur band to hear itself clearly at a fraction of the sound intensity.
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#2901781 - 01/13/18 07:34 AM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: Dr88s]
Dr88s Offline
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Registered: 05/12/13
Posts: 1195
Loc: Montreal, Canada
OT, Chuck, I always read your name as C Phollis, and internally sound it out to something really close to ''Syphilis'
blush
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#2901797 - 01/13/18 08:22 AM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: Dr88s]
KeyMoe Offline
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Very cool. Congratulations! We have used them for years!
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#2901829 - 01/13/18 11:06 AM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: KeyMoe]
RudyS Offline
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Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 2158
Loc: Groningen, The netherlands
I donít know if this is true, but a friend of mine is a sound engineer. I talked
to him about IEMís. He said ďwhatever you do, donít buy cheap ones. Those wonít shut off the complete surrounding so you tend to put them too loud, and thus ruining your earsĒ.

Again, I donít know if this is true, but might be wise to investigate.
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#2901831 - 01/13/18 11:10 AM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: RudyS]
stoken6 Offline
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Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 1662
+1 Chuck. My guitarist friend said to me that he's fed up of the singer (who runs PA) not giving him a decent mix in his wedge, and that he may go in-ear. The desk can give him a dedicated monitor send, so he just needs a headphone amp (he wants wireless, his prerogative) and he can run a "more me" app on his phone.

I've been in-ears for N-years (see what I did there?). Rolls PM351 allows me to get an "adequate" mix in whatever band situation I find myself.

Cheers, Mike.
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#2901876 - 01/13/18 04:16 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: RudyS]
cphollis Offline
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Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 2365
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
Originally Posted By: RudyS
I donít know if this is true, but a friend of mine is a sound engineer. I talked
to him about IEMís. He said ďwhatever you do, donít buy cheap ones. Those wonít shut off the complete surrounding so you tend to put them too loud, and thus ruining your earsĒ.

Again, I donít know if this is true, but might be wise to investigate.


Actually, I'm going in a different direction. "Passive" IEMs that expose you to external sounds. I don't like the tight seal. I'll report back?
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Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Keys: NP2, NS3C, NE4D, DeepMind-12
Home: Bosie 200, Yam AG N3
Amps: FA 12acs, RCF TT08as, QSC Ks, SSv3
Stuff: Stay stands, Key Largo, Vent II, X-Air 16

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#2901949 - 01/14/18 09:04 AM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: cphollis]
RudyS Offline
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Registered: 11/06/02
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Loc: Groningen, The netherlands
Yeah, please report how this works for you guys!
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Stuff: Nord Electro 3, Casio PX5s, DSI Mopho keys, Nord Lead A1, Korg N5, Korg Poly 61, QSC K10 and a Shure SM58.

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#2901959 - 01/14/18 09:56 AM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: RudyS]
mate stubb Online   content
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I have not solved the problem of getting my lead singer onto IEMs. He seems to have ears with no lobes, and every time he tries them, the entire evening is a comedy of watching the buds fall out of his ear.
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#2901965 - 01/14/18 10:31 AM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: mate stubb]
Dave Keys Offline
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Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 68
Loc: Birmingham UK
Good call. IEM's solve so many everyday problems that bands needlessly suffer from.

I'm on the journey with IEM buying at the moment.

This is what I have found - YMMV of course.

Too many people try cheap IEM's that keep falling out of their ears, or don't provide the seal that custom ones do. The lack of a decent seal means the volume needs to be set higher in order to compensate. Result: lots of musicians complaining they can't get on with IEM's.

Proper Custom IEM's will attenuate ambient sound by around 26db, meaning you can set the levels to a much lower, altogether pleasing level.
You can use ambient mics if you need to hear the crowd and fellow band members, and there are vented custom IEM's you can buy, although this rather defeats the object of IEM's I would have thought.

My situation is this: I dep for lots of different bands so need an IEM setup that can work with an existing band system, but also as a stand alone setup for when everyone else is on monitors.
I've been using ACS custom earplugs for last 3 years. They've been great. Ringing ears has become a thing of the past.
Unfortunately though, it means my stage monitor has to be loud enough to get through the 17db attenuation. Result - unnecessarily high volume on stage.

It's definitely time for IEMs.

My solution - Custom IEM's, wired. Probably UE7 Pro's (although I'll be demoing a few brands before deciding). I'm going to use a Zoom H6 or Tascam DR70d as an IEM monitor/mixer. The ambient mics are stereo and built-in, and there's enough inputs and xlrs to take feeds from the main mixer.

IEM's seem expensive if you think of them as headphones - yet many musicians will think nothing of paying £500-1000 on amplified stage monitors or amps.

Thats what IEM's are - stage monitors, except ones you can craft your own mix with, between yourself, ambient mikes and the rest of the band - and yet protect your hearing at the same time.
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#2901977 - 01/14/18 11:09 AM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: mate stubb]
RABid Offline
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Originally Posted By: mate stubb
I have not solved the problem of getting my lead singer onto IEMs. He seems to have ears with no lobes, and every time he tries them, the entire evening is a comedy of watching the buds fall out of his ear.


This would be my problem. I have never been able to use any type of ear bud and I have tried many. They fall out. Even the type with the wire around the ear get loose. I'm forever stuck with regular headphones.
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#2901979 - 01/14/18 11:29 AM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: RABid]
Dave Keys Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 68
Loc: Birmingham UK
Originally Posted By: RABid
Originally Posted By: mate stubb
I have not solved the problem of getting my lead singer onto IEMs. He seems to have ears with no lobes, and every time he tries them, the entire evening is a comedy of watching the buds fall out of his ear.


This would be my problem. I have never been able to use any type of ear bud and I have tried many. They fall out. Even the type with the wire around the ear get loose. I'm forever stuck with regular headphones.


That's because when you move your jaw, your ear canal changes shape. This is why for customs, proper ear impressions are done while the mouth is open.
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#2901987 - 01/14/18 12:07 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: Dave Keys]
cphollis Offline
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Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 2365
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
The Westones come with a "fit kit" with multiple sizes of rubber as well as memory foam tips to try. Probably not as 100% accurate as custom molded ones, but the memory foam approach should help.
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Keys: NP2, NS3C, NE4D, DeepMind-12
Home: Bosie 200, Yam AG N3
Amps: FA 12acs, RCF TT08as, QSC Ks, SSv3
Stuff: Stay stands, Key Largo, Vent II, X-Air 16

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#2901990 - 01/14/18 12:13 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: cphollis]
Dave Keys Offline
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Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 68
Loc: Birmingham UK
I think the UE900's do too.
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#2901995 - 01/14/18 12:23 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: RABid]
RudyS Offline
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Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 2158
Loc: Groningen, The netherlands
Originally Posted By: RABid
Originally Posted By: mate stubb
I have not solved the problem of getting my lead singer onto IEMs. He seems to have ears with no lobes, and every time he tries them, the entire evening is a comedy of watching the buds fall out of his ear.


I'm forever stuck with regular headphones.


If those are falling off as well, you can always try as the drummer from mutemath:

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Stuff: Nord Electro 3, Casio PX5s, DSI Mopho keys, Nord Lead A1, Korg N5, Korg Poly 61, QSC K10 and a Shure SM58.

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#2901996 - 01/14/18 12:25 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: cphollis]
SteveQB Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/11/14
Posts: 224
Loc: Devon, UK
Also I find the mix has to be better with IEMs. I also really notice difference in volume between songs. I am forever going on at our guitarists for that. Thanks n a monitor it wasnít too noticeable. With IEMs it really stands out!

I do really prefer them. It takes getting used to but not having ringing ears is a massive plus!
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#2902045 - 01/14/18 05:04 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: SteveQB]
Iconoclast Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 449
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
To me IEMs without a good ambient mic mixed back in sounds like crap.

Iím amazed at how few people realize that much of what you hear has reflected off of a wall or something. With IEMs you have lost all of that quality of the sound that the audience IS hearing.

I rarely hear guys talk about their ambient mike techniques, but I frequently read that some people in the band hate their IEMs. Hmmm.

Personally I donít know how you make a good IEM band mix with everything close miked or direct and no ambience.
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#2902079 - 01/14/18 06:02 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: Iconoclast]
cphollis Offline
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Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 2365
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
Originally Posted By: Iconoclast
To me IEMs without a good ambient mic mixed back in sounds like crap.

Iím amazed at how few people realize that much of what you hear has reflected off of a wall or something. With IEMs you have lost all of that quality of the sound that the audience IS hearing.

I rarely hear guys talk about their ambient mike techniques, but I frequently read that some people in the band hate their IEMs. Hmmm.

Personally I donít know how you make a good IEM band mix with everything close miked or direct and no ambience.


Agree, live noise is part of the experience.

You can get ambience with a simple mic. Or, in my case, going with ambient IEMs that let a measured amount of sound into your ears.

Ain't going back anytime soon smile
_________________________
Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Keys: NP2, NS3C, NE4D, DeepMind-12
Home: Bosie 200, Yam AG N3
Amps: FA 12acs, RCF TT08as, QSC Ks, SSv3
Stuff: Stay stands, Key Largo, Vent II, X-Air 16

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#2902091 - 01/14/18 06:38 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: cphollis]
eric Offline
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Registered: 01/25/02
Posts: 6280
Loc: Virginia
IEMs rule. I've been using UE7 with Shure wireless rig for seven years. Best gear investment ever. Most of my band mates are using IEMs as well. We have a couple of Behringer and Midas mixers that make it easy to dial in a monitor mix. I love not carrying monitors any longer.

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#2902106 - 01/14/18 07:37 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: eric]
mate stubb Online   content
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Lack of ambience doesn't bother me. No different than playing in the studio, and after 40 years of bringing the energy live, it's good practice for bringing the energy in the studio, which I need to work on!
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#2902175 - 01/15/18 05:22 AM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: mate stubb]
eric Offline
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Registered: 01/25/02
Posts: 6280
Loc: Virginia
Lack of ambience does not bother me with IEMs either - I have what sounds like a perfect mix of the band coming through my IEMs, with each instrument dialed in to the volume I need. Very similar to listening to a high quality album with headphones.

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#2902182 - 01/15/18 05:49 AM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: eric]
J. Dan Offline
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I find if anything I get TOO much ambient bleed through the vocal mics.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2902306 - 01/15/18 01:34 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: eric]
Dave Keys Offline
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Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 68
Loc: Birmingham UK
Originally Posted By: eric
IEMs rule. I've been using UE7 with Shure wireless rig for seven years. Best gear investment ever. Most of my band mates are using IEMs as well. We have a couple of Behringer and Midas mixers that make it easy to dial in a monitor mix. I love not carrying monitors any longer.


Hi Eric. I enjoyed reading your threads about choosing IEMís, and am going to demo a few brands in a week or two. Iím liking the sound of the UE7ís. Everyone here in the uk raves about ACSís but thatís partly to do with them being the most prominent brand here.
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#2902333 - 01/15/18 03:28 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: cphollis]
rickp Offline
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Registered: 11/17/14
Posts: 273
Originally Posted By: cphollis

Me? I'm monitoring the FOH mix through my IEMs. Trust me, the keys are heard, but not obnoxious. Nice, layered sounds, just as I like. No sound guy required. Of course, if we had access to a decent one, that would be AOK, but not in our world.


My bands have been all IEM over three years now, and Iíve done the FOH mix via iPad any time weíre providing the FOH system; Iíve found a complete seal IEM only works for me when someone else is mixing FOH unless a couple well-placed ambient mics are used because of the pre-mic dynamics of the drums and percussion ... otherwise, the un-micíd volume of the drums plus the micíd FOH volume will result in the drums being too loud.
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#2902394 - 01/15/18 08:07 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: rickp]
cphollis Offline
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Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 2365
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
Originally Posted By: rickp
Originally Posted By: cphollis

Me? I'm monitoring the FOH mix through my IEMs. Trust me, the keys are heard, but not obnoxious. Nice, layered sounds, just as I like. No sound guy required. Of course, if we had access to a decent one, that would be AOK, but not in our world.


My bands have been all IEM over three years now, and Iíve done the FOH mix via iPad any time weíre providing the FOH system; Iíve found a complete seal IEM only works for me when someone else is mixing FOH unless a couple well-placed ambient mics are used because of the pre-mic dynamics of the drums and percussion ... otherwise, the un-micíd volume of the drums plus the micíd FOH volume will result in the drums being too loud.


Yeah, with full-seal IEMs, you do have to remember that the guitar, bass and drums are still making considerable noise. I ballpark it by dialing each back in the mix somewhat, and pushing the vocal and keys forward somewhat.

The vocal mikes pick up a fair amount of stage sound, though. Close enough for a short-money bar band. Pay us more, we'll bring a sound guy.

I'm resisting bringing a keyboard stage amp to equate with the others. The whole idea is less gear smile Our last PA rig was only three pieces: two lightweight RCF TT08s plus a modest weight RCF sub. Plenty nice sound for a 50-patron bar.

That was a nice change.

Ambient IEMs will help a bit. Better would be to have one or two mics in the crowd, mixed directly to my ears. Sort of a virtual sound guy. Wouldn't work in a bunch of venues we play, but maybe in a few.

Funny moment at rehearsal tonight with the two guitar players. First guitar player says "these are wonderful, I can hear myself and everyone else! Never going back!". He actually prefers hearing the main mix vs a custom one, so he can hear what's being sent FOH. It's become a tasty mix.

Halfway through rehearsal, second guitar player yells "I can't freakin' hear myself!" and rips them out of his ears in disgust. Second guitar player was looking for moral support from first guitar player, got a look that said he wasn't going to get any, and gave up.

After a few songs, he tweaked his amp. I shut the song down. "Dude, all I can hear in the mix is your guitar, everything else is buried". He smiled for a bit, until he realized that all the other musos were giving him the stink eye. So he dialed back down.

I think he's become used to blaring tone from his amp, rising above all other instruments. And vocal monitors cranked to the point of feedback. Me, I'm digging all the delicate nuances I can get out of my boards these days.

Now that the rest of the band is playing IEMs, that ain't gonna happen, and he now knows it. Dude, sort out your sound, or find another band?

Next gig is in a house-of-horrors echo chamber. As before, we'll keep the volume very low and well-balanced. Maybe I'll bring a crowd mike for that one, dunno yet. Have to figure out how to switch it in and out, and keep it out of the mains. Shouldn't be hard.

The journey continues. The rehearsal recordings are sounding pretty good off the board these days.
_________________________
Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Keys: NP2, NS3C, NE4D, DeepMind-12
Home: Bosie 200, Yam AG N3
Amps: FA 12acs, RCF TT08as, QSC Ks, SSv3
Stuff: Stay stands, Key Largo, Vent II, X-Air 16

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#2902400 - 01/15/18 09:08 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: cphollis]
WesG Offline
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Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 3330
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
Is it Bob or Jerry that's too loud? If it's Bob - he's probably also not playing even close to clean enough. We're getting our Bob sorted. He's a very talented player but used to being the start of the show. I am very pleased with the discipline he is showing. It takes a hell of a guitar player to be a good Bob. Jerry, too, for that matter.
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#2902401 - 01/15/18 09:24 PM Re: Getting Your Band to IEMs [Re: WesG]
cphollis Offline
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Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 2365
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
Guitar player #1 is Bob. Totally gets into it. Guitar player #2 is Jerry. Very self-obsessed. But we're working with it, because when he brings game, it's impressive.
_________________________
Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Keys: NP2, NS3C, NE4D, DeepMind-12
Home: Bosie 200, Yam AG N3
Amps: FA 12acs, RCF TT08as, QSC Ks, SSv3
Stuff: Stay stands, Key Largo, Vent II, X-Air 16

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