Music Player Network Home Guitar Player Magazine Keyboard Magazine Bass Player Magazine EQ Magazine
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#2901813 - 01/13/18 09:21 AM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: David R]
BbAltered Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 03/18/12
Posts: 560
Thanks to all who wrote in. I'm loving the suggestions: play/practice to a click; move with the music; listen to our recordings.

This is the horn players' band: the rhythm section didn't get the horns, the horns got the rhythm section. And the drummer and horn players have been playing together for 10+ years, so changing the personnel is beyond my control.

Tempo changes: sure some songs should speed up. IMO Funk music does not benefit from large increases in the song tempo.

In my experience and opinion: Yes, it is possible for other musicians to push a drummer to speed up - playing too loud is a easy way to make this happen. I also think it will be easier for the band to accept and acknowledge the problem if we address it as an issue of group dynamics and group tempo.

And I now have some suggestions for what to do. Thanks.


That said, it is possible for an ensemble to screw up a drummer's sense of tempo
_________________________
J.S. Bach Well Tempered Klavier
The collected works of Scott Joplin
Ray Charles Genius plus Soul
Charlie Parker Omnibook
Stevie Wonder Songs in the Key of Life
Weather Report Mr. Gone

Top
KC Island
#2901815 - 01/13/18 09:26 AM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: David R]
Wastrel Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/09
Posts: 2622
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: David R
I yelled at him to watch the asses of the dancers.

Well if you actually have to tell him to do that, you may have a bigger problem than you can fix.
_________________________
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it’s time to pause and reflect.”
-Mark Twain

Top
#2901817 - 01/13/18 09:27 AM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: BbAltered]
waygetter Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 654
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Originally Posted By: BbAltered
Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms

Minor adjustment: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Rhythms Better
_________________________
soundcloud.com/stream

Top
#2901845 - 01/13/18 12:35 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: waygetter]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 6840
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Even very talented drummers can miss the connection ( not only of the primacy of dancing ) of the lyric and the too fast tempo. Amazing .
I have been hard on drummers... and t his thread reminds me of that unfortunate fact.

I do not appreciate jazz drummers when they are consistently too on top, and or speeding up, to boot.

Generally speaking, jazz players do not get the dance. The few that do, are golden!

This recording is still- a difficult choice, but- my favorite groove. And btw, not a groove I am a master of by any means. But this track ( and I believe there is an overdub in it!! ) is close to my heart, an impeccable depth of grooves, and even a growing intensity, rarely captured on "tape".



Each groove/style is a huge undertaking.. decades of immersion into a groove, like reggae, funk, salsa, jump swing, 40's ballad etc are what is involved.

So for one rhythm section person to truly grasp ( complete with all the nuances ) Tom Petty, EWF, Sarah Vaughn, Bob Marly, James Brown, a polka, a Viennese waltz, Elvin Jones, Louis Armstrong, Louie Prima, is likely impossible.

In my music life, I saw two different approaches - one, to be an original. and two, to be all things to all people, aka very versatile. I opted for the second option.
I have been wondering about this choice; sometimes I think in terms of the grass is greener to eg, be strictly a Salsa player. or solo pianist... a limited number of grooves within a single style.. not 50!

Going roundabout for a second:
I think, Quincy Jones took my route.. aka Michael Jackson and Sinatra with Basie...
versatility seems the safer choice, but moving back to OP's dilemma - your poor drummer is likely a little out of his depth.. Maybe another style is more in keeping with his nature!

Top
#2901853 - 01/13/18 01:32 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: I-missRichardTee]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 3407
Loc: eastern North Carolina
Worthy sig material: "If the booty isn't bouncing then we're not doing our job."

Playing both keys and bass helps, I'm still (and likely always be) focused on the bass and pocket with the drums. I'm fortunate to play with my son-in-law on drums - and he really understands rhythm section.
_________________________
Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's
HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Jim

Top
#2901858 - 01/13/18 02:00 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 6840
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
Worthy sig material: "If the booty isn't bouncing then we're not doing our job."

Playing both keys and bass helps, I'm still (and likely always be) focused on the bass and pocket with the drums. I'm fortunate to play with my son-in-law on drums - and he really understands rhythm section.


Yes, but, last night I played with a respectable credentialed drummer I could not prevent from playing faster than the singer wanted, and then putting an edge on that, and perhaps even speeding up a tad. The speeding up wouldn't be so bad, if the initial tempo had been honored. But when it is almost immediately faster than you wish,,and then has a forward edge and then speeds up.. you have little choice even with L hand bass, to go with the flow.

I may have mentioned this but I once casually played piano with a master bass player Paul Jackson.. I asked him about time playing with others... he said he plays ignoring their tempo that is violating the groove. Not his words, but basically he plays like a locomotive coming down the track. That is very hard to do!

Playing a groove for dance is such an effortless** joy, yet it often does not happen.
One reason is the lack of playing together.
But simpatico between players is needed too.

*** The best kept secret among musicians is this
Learning to groove FIRST and when you finally achieve a groove, your solo will be effortless.
Practice all day, but without a groove you are not going to achieve a killer solo.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (01/13/18 02:05 PM)

Top
#2901875 - 01/13/18 04:10 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
cphollis Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 2499
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
Worthy sig material: "If the booty isn't bouncing then we're not doing our job."



Agreed. Just have to get the rest of the band(s) into this world view.
_________________________
Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Keys: NP2, NS3C, NE4D, DeepMind-12
Home: Bosie 200, Yam AG N3
Amps: FA 12acs, RCF TT08as, QSC Ks, SSv3
Stuff: Stay stands, Key Largo, Vent II, X-Air 16

Top
#2901892 - 01/13/18 08:19 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
elseif Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 93
Loc: FL space coast
Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
. . . Playing both keys and bass helps, I'm still (and likely always be) focused on the bass and pocket with the drums. I'm fortunate to play with my son-in-law on drums - and he really understands rhythm section.

IMO and IME the pulse is set by the bass player, not the drummer. But I think the drummer is responsible for increasing tempos.

I have played e-bass in a band with a drummer that rushed. I would have to close my eyes and ears, turn up the volume and concentrate on ignoring him as much as possible attempt to lay down a consistent tempo to fight his onslaught. It was not a musical moment nor an enjoyable one. One time I decided for fun to just go with him - how fast will this thing go? As it turns out, laughably fast. The singer tried to keep and finally gave up and and walked off stage mid-song.

I now play LH bass with a good drummer. It's a pleasure.

Top
#2901895 - 01/13/18 08:42 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: elseif]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 3407
Loc: eastern North Carolina
I first went to key bass because my left (fretting) hand was hurting increasingly as I got older on electric bass.
I met my wife when we were both taking ballroom dance lessons. The most popular live band among the dancers and studios in the area didn't play complex, but they were rock steady in tempo. There are audio CDs available for use in dance competitions which are arranged to have very strict tempo. Ballroom routines for the more advanced competition do use tempo changes as a part of the choreography. Bronze and silver routines generally use strict tempo.

Having experienced both dancing to the music and playing the music is helpful. Right - a good drummer is a pleasure. Noted also that dynamic range in drumming and good tempo control seem to go together.
_________________________
Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's
HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Jim

Top
#2901896 - 01/13/18 08:51 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: I-missRichardTee]
MathOfInsects Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 3434
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Yes, but, last night I played with a respectable credentialed drummer I could not prevent from playing faster than the singer wanted, and then putting an edge on that, and perhaps even speeding up a tad. The speeding up wouldn't be so bad, if the initial tempo had been honored. But when it is almost immediately faster than you wish,,and then has a forward edge and then speeds up.. you have little choice even with L hand bass, to go with the flow.

I may have mentioned this but I once casually played piano with a master bass player Paul Jackson.. I asked him about time playing with others... he said he plays ignoring their tempo that is violating the groove. Not his words, but basically he plays like a locomotive coming down the track. That is very hard to do!

Playing a groove for dance is such an effortless** joy, yet it often does not happen.
One reason is the lack of playing together.
But simpatico between players is needed too.

*** The best kept secret among musicians is this
Learning to groove FIRST and when you finally achieve a groove, your solo will be effortless.
Practice all day, but without a groove you are not going to achieve a killer solo.


I did something sacrilegious last night. I probably should not admit this. But...

This particular group has a weaker bass player. I play with them a lot. Last night ends and someone comes over and hands BL $40 for an encore. It might have been the club owner but it's more fun to imagine it's a random rabid fan. BL calls Purple Rain.

The end comes, the massive section under the guitar solo, first over the modified chorus changes, and then the part that adds that huge walkdown obligato back to the I. Bass refuses to groove on the first part (in my head: "HOLD A NOTE. This is not the time to play staccato. Watch the drummer's kick-drum foot!"), but it is what it is.

Then the second part comes, that huge walkdown section, and bass player is walking UP every time, starting from the higher D (they do the song in A), so he ends up in alto range on that A tonic, up in the second octave above the bottom of the bass. So instead of "landing" somewhere, the phrase just essentially floats off each time. This would have been cool as a one-time thing, but doing it every time is slopping all over the cohesion in that section. Everyone is playing massive except that diddly clever bass. The guitar player (and the song, and the groove) is being hung out to dry.

So...f*ck it. Last song of the night. I dropped my LH down and ghosted in a lower bass note, to give the guitar a foundation. As I was doing it, I had this little internal narrator going, "This is a total d-bag move. Stop it." "But the song is being homicided without it, and it sounds SO much better this way." "It does sound way better, but you're being a d*ck to the bass player by doing this." "Just shut up and listen! It's way better, and this is a Prince song so therefore eat a turd." "You have a point. Please continue.")

It did sound way better. The song instantly had weight again. I've never done that before (intentionally!), but let's just say...I felt oddly Ok about it. Tonight I am going to test this new life view by swearing at a nun and kicking a homeless person.
_________________________
"

Top
#2901902 - 01/14/18 03:52 AM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: MathOfInsects]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 6840
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Yes, but, last night I played with a respectable credentialed drummer I could not prevent from playing faster than the singer wanted, and then putting an edge on that, and perhaps even speeding up a tad. The speeding up wouldn't be so bad, if the initial tempo had been honored. But when it is almost immediately faster than you wish,,and then has a forward edge and then speeds up.. you have little choice even with L hand bass, to go with the flow.

I may have mentioned this but I once casually played piano with a master bass player Paul Jackson.. I asked him about time playing with others... he said he plays ignoring their tempo that is violating the groove. Not his words, but basically he plays like a locomotive coming down the track. That is very hard to do!

Playing a groove for dance is such an effortless** joy, yet it often does not happen.
One reason is the lack of playing together.
But simpatico between players is needed too.

*** The best kept secret among musicians is this
Learning to groove FIRST and when you finally achieve a groove, your solo will be effortless.
Practice all day, but without a groove you are not going to achieve a killer solo.


I did something sacrilegious last night. I probably should not admit this. But...

This particular group has a weaker bass player. I play with them a lot. Last night ends and someone comes over and hands BL $40 for an encore. It might have been the club owner but it's more fun to imagine it's a random rabid fan. BL calls Purple Rain.

The end comes, the massive section under the guitar solo, first over the modified chorus changes, and then the part that adds that huge walkdown obligato back to the I. Bass refuses to groove on the first part (in my head: "HOLD A NOTE. This is not the time to play staccato. Watch the drummer's kick-drum foot!"), but it is what it is.

Then the second part comes, that huge walkdown section, and bass player is walking UP every time, starting from the higher D (they do the song in A), so he ends up in alto range on that A tonic, up in the second octave above the bottom of the bass. So instead of "landing" somewhere, the phrase just essentially floats off each time. This would have been cool as a one-time thing, but doing it every time is slopping all over the cohesion in that section. Everyone is playing massive except that diddly clever bass. The guitar player (and the song, and the groove) is being hung out to dry.

So...f*ck it. Last song of the night. I dropped my LH down and ghosted in a lower bass note, to give the guitar a foundation. As I was doing it, I had this little internal narrator going, "This is a total d-bag move. Stop it." "But the song is being homicided without it, and it sounds SO much better this way." "It does sound way better, but you're being a d*ck to the bass player by doing this." "Just shut up and listen! It's way better, and this is a Prince song so therefore eat a turd." "You have a point. Please continue.")

It did sound way better. The song instantly had weight again. I've never done that before (intentionally!), but let's just say...I felt oddly Ok about it. Tonight I am going to test this new life view by swearing at a nun and kicking a homeless person.


Your internal dialogue of to be or not to be underlies a philosophical idea.. the name of which I do not know... but I sense it.
The generations before mine, seem to have a confusion about loyalty to one guy ( weak ass bass player ) versus the BAND, the CROWD, the Club Owners.

It is super simple for this older dude ( me, Tee, john )and It almost borders on fanatical for me.. if a bass player is weak, I will immediately without a thought of "enabling compassion", to ask my self "should I or shouldn't I?" .. No question, I WILL rule that beat.. and to hell with whomever has a problem with that.
bass player has no business on the stage, and if his ego smarts, that is not a pleasant thing, but so be it.

When I say to hell with.. I mean this.. the music itself is first, the feelings are second. I have no pleasure in bruising egos.. matter of fact, I dislike it, but in the heat of battle on stage, there is usually no hesitation to put music over your feelings, which ultimately are petty. I may make a brief apology, but will still do what needs to be done. I have made a lot of people unhappy with this.. and that is life.

What is with the younger generations - the majority here - who seem confused about hurting a single persons feelings, versus making damn sure the song, the set, the gig, goes as smoothly as humanly possible? I do not take control ( Bogart ) with any joy in hurting a weaker mans feelings, not at all... nor does a Doctor enjoy hurting us.. but he has to do it.
I do not get it... well I do not get the obsession with color coordinated guitars either.
Yeah, I heard cats are concerned about the appropriate COLOR of their instruments.
Do you know how distasteful this is to me... a relatively old school dude??

In the last case- about fashion- it seems like an inversion of values- where fashion is equal to, or even greater than the sound of a guitar ! ( news flash, not all guitars sound equally well )

In the earlier instance- a single weak guys feelings are put above the overall well being in a band, in the venue. Viewed even arithmetically from the collective feelings pov.. do I intercede aggressively and make a number of peoples feelings happier, and only one persons feelings unhappy, or not! Simple for me.
Values people... the Mother puts the oxygen mask on her mouth first, THEN her child's mouth.

I do not get these cultural inversions at all.. and dislike them very much. Someone better educated than I can explain to me what is going on in this culture, feel free to PM, else you might get heat from the majority here.
Thanks


Edited by I-missRichardTee (01/14/18 04:12 AM)
_________________________
Either there is or is not a high purpose for Life.

Top
#2901958 - 01/14/18 09:51 AM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Sospiri Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/05/12
Posts: 102
Loc: Crete, Greece
Personally I was lucky enough to almost always play with musicians that kept good time and playing against a metronome could quite easily lead to that old expression "swinging like a lead balloon". But when I first spotted the title of this thread, it took me back to a story recounted in John Fordham's biography of the late British sax player & bandleader Ronnie Scott.

His first club in Gerrard Street, London, in 1959 needed a drinks licence and for this the club needed to appoint a wine committee, which comprised Ronnie, his partner Pete King, and former tenor player Benny Green. They went down to Wembley Police Station for the necessary documentation to be completed.

"Whar's the purposed of this club?" asked the station sergeant wearily.
"It's to get rhythm sections to play in time". intoned Green straight-faced.
The station sergeant dutifully took it down word for word.

Needless to say, they got their licence.


Edited by Sospiri (01/14/18 09:52 AM)

Top
#2901964 - 01/14/18 10:29 AM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: Sospiri]
El Lobo Online   confused
Gold Member

Registered: 12/23/14
Posts: 969
I've read this thread and thought about it and I still don't understand. If I couldn't play my parts correctly, I would expect to either work on it until I could or be let go. If the drummer or bass player can't play their parts correctly and won't learn how to do it, why are they in the band?

If the guitar player can't play a decent lead or can't get the chord changes right, what do you do? Do you just accept it and work around it? Or do you insist that he learn to do it correctly or be replaced? If he can't improve, do you just live with it? I wouldn't.

You wouldn't accept me playing wrong notes on keys or sax. You'd insist I play the correct notes. Why would you accept wrong notes or wrong time for the drummer or bass player? If the drummer or bass player aren't keeping good time, either they find a way to improve or they're outta there.

Top
#2901967 - 01/14/18 10:39 AM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: MathOfInsects]
ProfD Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 9654
Loc: Wash DC Area
Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
I did something sacrilegious last night. I probably should not admit this. But...

Bass refuses to groove on the first part

Then the second part comes, that huge walkdown section, and bass player is walking UP...so he ends up in alto range on that A tonic, up in the second octave above the bottom of the bass.

So instead of "landing" somewhere, the phrase just essentially floats off each time.

So...f*ck it. Last song of the night. I dropped my LH down and ghosted in a lower bass note...

It did sound way better. The song instantly had weight again.

Brotha MOI, the action you took is a testament to your musical sensibilities and your respect for the music.

That move was not sacrilegious given the circumstances. Your LH bass landing saved the azz, er, bottom of "Purple Rain".

I'm sure the spirit of His Royal Purpleness smiled too. thu cool
_________________________
PD

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

Top
#2902013 - 01/14/18 02:07 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: Sospiri]
waygetter Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 654
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Originally Posted By: Sospiri
Personally I was lucky enough to almost always play with musicians that kept good time and playing against a metronome could quite easily lead to that old expression "swinging like a lead balloon". But when I first spotted the title of this thread, it took me back to a story recounted in John Fordham's biography of the late British sax player & bandleader Ronnie Scott.

His first club in Gerrard Street, London, in 1959 needed a drinks licence and for this the club needed to appoint a wine committee, which comprised Ronnie, his partner Pete King, and former tenor player Benny Green. They went down to Wembley Police Station for the necessary documentation to be completed.

"Whar's the purposed of this club?" asked the station sergeant wearily.
"It's to get rhythm sections to play in time". intoned Green straight-faced.
The station sergeant dutifully took it down word for word.

Needless to say, they got their licence.
That's a great story, thanks for sharing Sospiri!
_________________________
soundcloud.com/stream

Top
#2902015 - 01/14/18 02:09 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: El Lobo]
waygetter Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 654
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Originally Posted By: El Lobo
If the drummer or bass player can't play their parts correctly and won't learn how to do it, why are they in the band?

Perhaps there are other factors in play. Maybe they are the band leaders, maybe they are great singers, maybe they bring the beer.

But I agree with you, the music has to come first.
_________________________
soundcloud.com/stream

Top
#2902019 - 01/14/18 02:19 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: waygetter]
area51recording Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 1938
Loc: Newburgh,IN
Originally Posted By: waygetter
Originally Posted By: El Lobo
If the drummer or bass player can't play their parts correctly and won't learn how to do it, why are they in the band?

Perhaps there are other factors in play. Maybe they are the band leaders, maybe they are great singers, maybe they bring the beer.

But I agree with you, the music has to come first.


Funny, that reminds me of a game we play around here.....if we see a band where one member stands out like a sore thumb in the suck dept, the comment is always, "Well.....guess he booked the gig (or owns the PA)".....

Top
#2902021 - 01/14/18 02:37 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: Jazz+]
RABid Offline
10k Club

Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 12481
The responsibility lies with the drummer. Sad fact, some drummers don't have a sense of tempo and they want to play every song at a "comfort" tempo. Something that can help is singing along while playing. A drastic measure is a strobe metronome. Sometimes you just have to find a new drummer.

A story I have told here before. When I moved from drums to keyboard and joined a new band, I attended the first show with the drummer who was to replace me. The band played Cheap Trick "I Want You To Want Me", a song with a slow tempo that can be hard for drummers to manage. The drummer kept speeding up and the poor singer was struggling to get the words out fast enough. IwantyoutowantmeIneedyoutoneedmeIloveyouto... Stop. STOP! Bill. Get off of the stage. Bobby. Get on the drums." Yep, the singer brought the song to a halt and fired the drummer right there. Sad thing, the drummer did not realize how fast he was playing. He was like "What?", insulted that he had been called out on stage for his playing. Thinking about the singer singing Didn'tIdin'tIdin'tseeyoucrying like a 45 being played at 78 speed is one of my funniest memories in music.
_________________________
This post edited for speling.

Top
#2902031 - 01/14/18 03:33 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: RABid]
Jazz+ Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 5837
Musicians are primarily judged by their time. If I play with somebody who has bad time, then I don’t play with them again. Simple. I wasted a lot of time and energy when I was younger by often not following this choice.
_________________________
Mojo 61 organ & EP, Casio PX-360 digital piano, Fender Tele & Strat, ES-335, Hofner Beatle Bass, Vox Adio Air guitar effects practice amp, 2 EV SxA360 powered speakers, 1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

Top
#2902054 - 01/14/18 05:20 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: David R]
Jazz+ Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 5837
I like this test: have the bass player play a groove for 32 bars and then have the drummer join in for 32 more bars. Then reverse the test, have the drummer play the same groove for 32 bars and then have the bass player join for 32 more. Let the rest of the band sit and just listen and be the judge.
_________________________
Mojo 61 organ & EP, Casio PX-360 digital piano, Fender Tele & Strat, ES-335, Hofner Beatle Bass, Vox Adio Air guitar effects practice amp, 2 EV SxA360 powered speakers, 1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

Top
#2902057 - 01/14/18 05:22 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: Jazz+]
El Lobo Online   confused
Gold Member

Registered: 12/23/14
Posts: 969
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Musicians are primarily judged by their time.
This is true, even for guitar, keyboard, horn, vocals. You can play great note choices or have technique up the kazoo, but if your time is off, you still suck and you will never groove.

Top
#2902060 - 01/14/18 05:28 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: Jazz+]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 6840
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
I like this test: have the bass player play a groove for 32 bars and then have the drummer join in for 32 more bars. Then reverse the test, have the drummer play the same groove for 32 bars and then have the bass player join for 32 more. Let the rest of the band sit and just listen and be the judge.


Seems a bit anxiety producing, your test

But waiting for a cab I spoke to Mel Lewis .. and I recall him saying.. he and Richard Davis used a clock ( in whatever context, do not recall ) and each chorus was the same amount of time!!

I heard Richard and Mel more than any other rhythm section, thanks to Village Vanguard Monday night policy

I loved that band.. and felt Richard ( Aries )could and did push the time, and Mel ( Taurus ) was steady ... what a band they were.
_________________________
Either there is or is not a high purpose for Life.

Top
#2902065 - 01/14/18 05:32 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: El Lobo]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 6840
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: El Lobo
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Musicians are primarily judged by their time.
This is true, even for guitar, keyboard, horn, vocals. You can play great note choices or have technique up the kazoo, but if your time is off, you still suck and you will never groove.


Never shy to repeat a point... the horns ( my drummer friend calls them "Melody men ")
singers all have a profound effect on the time/ tempo.. a general statement of "truth".

One of my favorite singer for time, is Miss Marlena Shaw with David Hazeltine.
For funk, James Brown.

I worked with a commercial singer/star who I never ever liked, UNTIL I worked and recorded with him... The voice on Rawhide. A Sicilian ( Sorry, but some ethnicities seem to stack up higher in time feel than others ) , his time feel was on the money.
Always liked him very much after that.
Each person in the band has an effect on the others.

Top
#2902072 - 01/14/18 05:45 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: I-missRichardTee]
cphollis Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 2499
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
One trick I use with my bands is to play through entire songs, multiple times, no vocals. Vocals distract and hide. Strip the vocals away, all that's left is groove. Make recordings, share with all members, invite commentary.

When the groove starts happening, OK let's add vocals.
_________________________
Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Keys: NP2, NS3C, NE4D, DeepMind-12
Home: Bosie 200, Yam AG N3
Amps: FA 12acs, RCF TT08as, QSC Ks, SSv3
Stuff: Stay stands, Key Largo, Vent II, X-Air 16

Top
#2902074 - 01/14/18 05:46 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: cphollis]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 6840
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: cphollis
One trick I use with my bands is to play through entire songs, multiple times, no vocals. Vocals distract and hide. Strip the vocals away, all that's left is groove. Make recordings, share with all members, invite commentary.

When the groove starts happening, OK let's add vocals.


Great idea, esp the recording part, and then LISTEN to result!
But what happens when vocals jump in... nice excitement complete with speeding up, or?
_________________________
Either there is or is not a high purpose for Life.

Top
#2902078 - 01/14/18 05:57 PM Re: Getting the Rhythm Section to Play Better Rhythms [Re: I-missRichardTee]
cphollis Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 2499
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Originally Posted By: cphollis
One trick I use with my bands is to play through entire songs, multiple times, no vocals. Vocals distract and hide. Strip the vocals away, all that's left is groove. Make recordings, share with all members, invite commentary.

When the groove starts happening, OK let's add vocals.


Great idea, esp the recording part, and then LISTEN to result!
But what happens when vocals jump in... nice excitement complete with speeding up, or?


After we've played a song a half-dozen times without vocals, people are pretty locked into what sounds "right". I'll play back a recording, and have people sing over it. The "feel" gets locked into their brains.

Add live vocals, sure, maybe some excitement, but just a smudge, not outrageous. All part of the feel.

Otherwise, things can speed up/slow down in a non-musical manner. And it's super hard to fix.
_________________________
Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Keys: NP2, NS3C, NE4D, DeepMind-12
Home: Bosie 200, Yam AG N3
Amps: FA 12acs, RCF TT08as, QSC Ks, SSv3
Stuff: Stay stands, Key Largo, Vent II, X-Air 16

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2


Moderator:  Dave Bryce, Stephen Fortner