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#2901127 - 01/10/18 10:23 AM low-end tube preamps - different how?
dsetto Offline
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I once read that low-end tube preamps are not really like "actual" tube preamps. I forgot the reason. ... In what way would the results differ between these two types?

Thank you, kindly.

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#2901129 - 01/10/18 10:31 AM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: dsetto]
GovernorSilver Offline
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I remember a review of either the Presonus Tube Pre, or the competing ART preamp, stating that the tube doesn't really add much to the tone, except perhaps extra noise. That seemed to be the case with my Tube Pre.

It's a different story with the high-end tube preamps.
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#2901133 - 01/10/18 10:42 AM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: GovernorSilver]
mate stubb Online   content
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Low end designs tend to run the tubes at starved voltages because they cheap out on the power supply. Running the tube heaters at 9 volts instead of say 100 volts or more puts them outside the operating range they were designed for.
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#2901174 - 01/10/18 01:24 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: mate stubb]
Markyboard Offline
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Moe-

Having taken a recent interest in this tube technology of yore...
the heater voltage in the Hammond A0-28/29 pre-amps is only 6 Volts. Did you mean plate voltage?

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#2901182 - 01/10/18 01:39 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: Markyboard]
Reezekeys Offline
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Low end= "starved plate"

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#2901191 - 01/10/18 01:58 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: Reezekeys]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Low end= "starved plate"


I always thought that meant getting less mashed potatoes.
laugh

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#2901194 - 01/10/18 02:03 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: Markyboard]
timwat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Low end= "starved plate"


I always thought that meant getting less mashed potatoes.
laugh


If by "less mashed potatoes" you mean "bright, fizzy, hairy, artificial and not-musical", well, then, yes..."less mashed potatoes" it is.
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#2901202 - 01/10/18 02:18 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: timwat]
OB Dave Offline
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Starved plate designs are great if you want to raise the noise floor, lower headroom, and bollocks up the frequency response of your signal path.

Sadly, putting a little 12AX7 in a glass window is an effective marketing gimmick.

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#2901203 - 01/10/18 02:21 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: Markyboard]
The Real MC Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Moe-

Having taken a recent interest in this tube technology of yore...
the heater voltage in the Hammond A0-28/29 pre-amps is only 6 Volts. Did you mean plate voltage?


I would agree. Heater voltages are always around 6VAC, Moe was referring to plate voltages.

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#2901207 - 01/10/18 02:38 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: The Real MC]
Markyboard Offline
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Thanks thu

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#2901208 - 01/10/18 02:42 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: The Real MC]
dsetto Offline
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I almost ordered less mashed potatoes for 8. (ART TubeOpto 8).

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#2901210 - 01/10/18 02:53 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: dsetto]
Markyboard Offline
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You reminded me of checking out an ART preamp for my CX-3 clonewheel years ago. I remember it being extremely noisy no matter what gain setting I set it up for. Ended up with a Speakeasy. Those were good days.

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#2901230 - 01/10/18 04:11 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: The Real MC]
mate stubb Online   content
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Originally Posted By: The Real MC
Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Moe-

Having taken a recent interest in this tube technology of yore...
the heater voltage in the Hammond A0-28/29 pre-amps is only 6 Volts. Did you mean plate voltage?


I would agree. Heater voltages are always around 6VAC, Moe was referring to plate voltages.


My bad!
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#2901402 - 01/11/18 09:27 AM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: mate stubb]
mauriziodececco Offline
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6.3 V.
I remember seeing the tube changing color while raising it slowly to 24V (using a tube tester, back in the 70s smile.

Maurizio
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#2901463 - 01/11/18 03:30 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: mauriziodececco]
hardware Offline
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Here’s for keyboard rigs, or PA, or an 8 Channel Tube Summing Box.

Depending on the gig, if I’m using Zebra2 HZ, Canterbury, Omnisphere and Kontakt more, I use the Radial Space Heater.
No starved plate here, 35v/70v/140volt switches.

For big hardware synth gigs and less VSTs I use a Bellari RP562 w/ NOS/NIB RCA 5771 circa ‘56 Tubes.
It’s 3 way so sub out to Behringer B1200D, and Dual Mono Out to Spacestation vrs. 3.

I like FAT Bastards, and the little SSv3 with Tubes and a Sub kicks ass....

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#2901492 - 01/11/18 07:32 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: hardware]
cphollis Offline
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Wow, Radial Space Heater at $1399. Any way to feel the love for less?
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#2901508 - 01/11/18 10:06 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: cphollis]
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Originally Posted By: cphollis
Wow, Radial Space Heater at $1399. Any way to feel the love for less?


since you are not using VST's use the other option.
"For big hardware synth gigs and less VSTs I use a Bellari RP562 w/ NOS/NIB RCA 5771 circa ‘56 Tubes."
That's all.
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#2901589 - 01/12/18 08:15 AM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: davedoerfler]
hardware Offline
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RP562s are rare, but pop up for a few bones now & than.
If you get one send it to Billy Gibbs guitar guy in Louisianna for the Analog Devices modification, and the RCA Tubes.
About 750 TOC.
But it’s really what makes the SSv3/B1200D tickle thighs with SPLs.
Bought my Radial in 2016 when they were 1600 USD.
Spent 200 more on custom Mogabi DB25 connectors for rack purposes.
It makes Omnisphere and Zebra2 HZ buzz with greasy Filter juice.
1399 is a fair price.
This can be used as a Guitar Amp too.
The distortion is that good.
Inserts on the back allow pedals or a compressor.
Crunch city or just a good old Iron Butterfly Eat A Gob Of Velveeta sound.

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#2901670 - 01/12/18 01:17 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: cphollis]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Originally Posted By: cphollis
Wow, Radial Space Heater at $1399. Any way to feel the love for less?


Radial does have less expensive tube preamps - at least from what I can see on the Sweetwater site.

If you really want a heart attack, look at the prices for an Avalon, Drawmer, Summit Audio... the usual high end suspects


Edited by GovernorSilver (01/12/18 01:18 PM)
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#2901682 - 01/12/18 02:26 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: GovernorSilver]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
If you really want a heart attack, look at the prices for an Avalon, Drawmer, Summit Audio... the usual high end suspects

...and now you're in my ball park. grin

My baby is a Groove Tubes VIPre. Eight tube stages when you go in through the instrument input. Then, right to a Summit TLA-100 limiter for more tube love... thu

You can also do harmonic color emphasis and saturation/distortion tricks with something like the elysia karacter, which also features some parameters that have CV inputs....and then there's the Culture Vulture...

...but now we're very far away for low end tube preamps.

dB
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#2901691 - 01/12/18 04:07 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: Dave Bryce]
hardware Offline
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Drummer I gig with uses an Elysia on his drums.
Stops the gain right at the first sound of distortion on his toms.
He gets the kit sound from the 80s that the drummer in the Babys got.
Big fat glassy sound.

Meanwhile back at the ranch....
Starved plates just look cool, save your money.
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#2901703 - 01/12/18 05:27 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: hardware]
dsetto Offline
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Tubes as front end to an SSv3 sounds excellent.

On the Bellari site, I read "more present" as a description. I would use that description for my early 70's silverface Twin Reverb. But that's a noisy, gtr amp.

Do you guys think that a competent tube front end results in a more "present" sound? And if so, do you know why?

Thanks.



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#2901725 - 01/12/18 07:12 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: dsetto]
hardware Offline
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Bellari makes junk these days.
RP563 is weaker, junk PSU, cheap OpAmps and crappy Tubes.

Distortion is what makes vinyl LP from the 70s sound better.
Tube pres are similar. Take it right up to distortion with keys.
Presence is generic..
I call it balls.

IMHO samples already compressed/mastered sound fine but just get bigger and thicker.

I use 2 x SE-02s for a 6 Oscillator Mono Synth.
It is so powerful already. The Tubes just give it sizzling bacon on the Filters.
Really greasy shit.
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#2901739 - 01/12/18 09:41 PM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: Dave Bryce]
cphollis Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
If you really want a heart attack, look at the prices for an Avalon, Drawmer, Summit Audio... the usual high end suspects

...and now you're in my ball park. grin

My baby is a Groove Tubes VIPre. Eight tube stages when you go in through the instrument input. Then, right to a Summit TLA-100 limiter for more tube love... thu

You can also do harmonic color emphasis and saturation/distortion tricks with something like the elysia karacter, which also features some parameters that have CV inputs....and then there's the Culture Vulture...

...but now we're very far away for low end tube preamps.

dB


Good advice. Next GAS target identified. My sound is way to sterile and hyper accurate. Time to dial in some serious tube love.
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Keys: NP2, NS3C, NE4D, DeepMind-12
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#2901748 - 01/13/18 02:10 AM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: cphollis]
Markyboard Offline
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Are we talking live usage here for these fancy tube amps? After years of striving to reach personal and FOH monitoring nirvana it's now time to add some subtle (or not) distortion? Because those multi-thousand dollar monitors are too accurate? Really? I understand the use of these tools in the studio (by those who know how to use them) for thickening up certain tracks like drums,vocals and maybe even the occasional keyboard but .... ok wow, unleash the next wave of hyped up BS marketing to the weekend warriors.

Can't wait to see what those vintage Roland KC500 amps fetch on Ebay in a few years.

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#2901749 - 01/13/18 02:11 AM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: Markyboard]
Markyboard Offline
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IMO.

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#2901750 - 01/13/18 03:23 AM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: Markyboard]
Markay Offline
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Good point Mark. For chuckles when I want hear my keys sound completely different I plug them into my guitar amp, a Mesa Boogie Mark V head and cab. Pure valve goodness.

Does Jon Lord organ really well, in tone and volume, and a clean Fender, but otherwise it is only good for 'new' sounds, and that doesn't mean better.
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#2901768 - 01/13/18 07:02 AM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: Markyboard]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Are we talking live usage here for these fancy tube amps? After years of striving to reach personal and FOH monitoring nirvana it's now time to add some subtle (or not) distortion? Because those multi-thousand dollar monitors are too accurate? Really? I understand the use of these tools in the studio (by those who know how to use them) for thickening up certain tracks like drums,vocals and maybe even the occasional keyboard but .... ok wow, unleash the next wave of hyped up BS marketing to the weekend warriors.

Originally Posted By: Markay
Good point Mark. For chuckles when I want hear my keys sound completely different I plug them into my guitar amp, a Mesa Boogie Mark V head and cab. Pure valve goodness.

As a rule, I tend to agree with these comments as far as live sound; however (as I'm sure you know) there's all kinds of different things you can do to audio with tubes/harmonics/saturation/distortion, depending on the device, the make/model/function of the tubes (valves, for brother Markay), where you put the device in question in the signal chain, etc.

Why do guitar player use distortion and overdrive pedals - multiple ones, in many cases - if all they need to do is crank up their amp? idk

Studio - whole different ball game, of course.

dB
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#2901810 - 01/13/18 09:02 AM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: Dave Bryce]
dsetto Offline
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Do you guys see a value in using a competent tube chain for clean, not driven, live sound? Like for digital piano?

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#2901811 - 01/13/18 09:10 AM Re: low-end tube preamps - different how? [Re: dsetto]
Reezekeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: dsetto
Do you guys see a value in using a competent tube chain for clean, not driven, live sound? Like for digital piano?

For digital piano? Not in a million years.

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