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#2901052 - 01/10/18 06:11 AM OT: Too Many Electric Cars?
Synthoid Offline
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Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
I've often wondered what people in the city do to charge their Tesla. Just run an extension cord out the window? I don't think so.

Even though there are more Supercharger stations being built, I'm not ready for an all-electric car just yet. Here in SE Pennsylvania, we don't see much of that newfangled technology.

Then I read an online report this morning about "Charge rage," which is occurring in parking lots of corporations who offer on-site EV charging. Unfortunately demand is exceeding supply and employees are fighting over the limited chargers... even to the extent of unplugging another's charger for their own car.

I'm curious what anyone here could share regarding charging experiences and issues. idk

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#2901053 - 01/10/18 06:15 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
HammondDave Offline
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I have my deposit down on a Model 3. With a 320 mile range, I don't think I will have that problem.
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#2901058 - 01/10/18 06:44 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: HammondDave]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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Registered: 03/27/08
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Loc: eastern North Carolina
I've never used someone else's charger in the close to 3 years of owning my Volt. The charger is normally mounted on the wall of the garage close enough for the cable to reach. However, I can remove it and carry it in the car for trips, and I have a 100' 12 gauge extension cord.
However, the Volt is hybrid - runs on battery until mostly depleted, then turns on the gasoline engine which generates electricity for the drive motor.

If I lived in an apartment in the city, I would be reluctant to leaving the vehicle out in public areas, although it will set off the alarm (horn beeps) if the cable is disconnected while the doors are locked.

I am reading some in my field (computers) that there are security issues with the public charging points - not in the battery charging, but in the money charging - inadequate security in the methods used to charge to the customer's account, resulting in a fairly easy way to clone someone else's account.

As far as company provided charging - I'd think the company should create some form of written policy on the "pecking order" or else add enough chargers for the need.

I only have a 36 to 42 mile electric range (depending largely on temperature - and use of heating or A/C knocks that down), but works very well for my service calls, most of whom are in the local area. I use more gas once a year in preparing for the Vehicle Emission test so the sensors are actuated and will pass than most of the rest of the year.
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#2901059 - 01/10/18 06:45 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: HammondDave]
Fusker Offline
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Loc: Raleigh, NC
Went to my local Target yesterday and was surprised to find quite the Tesla charging row available. It was maybe one third full. There was an apartment complex nearby, so may have been for them more than Target. It got me to thinking now that I'm in more of a more hipster city, I might explore this option.
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#2901061 - 01/10/18 06:48 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: HammondDave]
Markay Offline
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Well we could start a new thread on Tesla Model 3 shipping date keeps slipping.

But back to the OP.

I guess people prefer to charge them at work as they may not be paying for the electricity, but here one of our energy utilities is offering a $1 a day deal to charge your car at home. So for most charging at home overnight is probably the lowest cost option.
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#2901062 - 01/10/18 06:49 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Fusker]
GovernorSilver Online   content
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I regularly drive up to Philly and last time around, I noticed charging stations at the Maryland House rest stop, off I-95.
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#2901064 - 01/10/18 07:01 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
Redknife Offline
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Registered: 12/14/14
Posts: 191
Loc: Lewisville, NC
We’ve had a Chevy bolt for 3 months (EV, 200+ mile range). 120v charging takes way too long for regular use. We have a level 2 charger (240v 30 amp) installed on an outside wall of the house. In a rural location, my wife drives during the day and plugs in at night without range worries. She’s at about 6-7000 miles for 3 months so it has been used a fair amount. There aren’t a ton of fast charging (level 3) stations in NC so we use the gas vehicle for longer trips. Don’t have any tales of woe.
ETA: I park at a 900 hospital parking lot which has just installed 4 level 2 chargers. There is only occasionally one car charging out of 4 spots . I think my area is not populated with many plugins thus we are not in the fighting stage yet.


Edited by Redknife (01/10/18 07:06 AM)
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#2901065 - 01/10/18 07:02 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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And now a Chinese competitor enters the EV arena with this rather high-tech offering:






Presented by a couple of Arnold Schwarzenegger's relatives. laugh

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#2901071 - 01/10/18 07:28 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
The Real MC Offline
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A year ago a new Dunkin Donuts was built, and they installed a row of Tesla chargers. This is right down the hill from my company R&D facility, where high earning PhDs have the moola to buy a Tesla. Haven't looked to see if they are being utilized, but I doubt anybody is driving electric vehicles in the arctic winter weather we are having now.

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#2901072 - 01/10/18 07:28 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
waygetter Offline
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To OPs ques: Too many electric cars? No, there are not enough electric cars. More electric, more self driving, more technology, more more more.

Better, safer, cheaper.
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#2901073 - 01/10/18 07:28 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
WheelHead Offline
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Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 490
Originally Posted By: Synthoid


Even though there are more Supercharger stations being built, I'm not ready for an all-electric car just yet. Here in SE Pennsylvania, we don't see much of that newfangled technology.


I've read that the DC fast charger stations can be $100,000 so there are more Level 2s.
There is also debate that the fast chargers damage or shorten the battery life. Comparing to small battery, appliance charging. I have a '15 minute lithium charger' I use for a device. When I fast charge the small batteries, they last about half as long as when I slow charge them (the fast charge goes red when the battery is done). I am sure the auto batteries are not quite like this but I think I would hesitate to get fast charges DC unless I was stuck out in the road (80 percent full in like 20-30 minutes) UNLESS I leased the car then "who cares" (though not a nice attitude) if the batteries are not 100 percent when the car is turned in.

Which begs the question: do most users of EVs lease or buy? It would seem leasing is safer because battery technology may improve in 3 years.

I ran into a licensed electrician in my travels fairly recently in the Philly-South Jersey area and asked him how many calls does he get to install electric vehicle charging stations in context of conversation at his work vehicle. He said he gets calls with questions but very little and insignificant amounts of installs though he told me about a couple he did recently.

........and how about the EV $7500 tax credit? I Googled it briefly and could not find clearly if it is still available in 2018.

WH

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#2901076 - 01/10/18 07:38 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: WheelHead]
Adan Offline
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That's funny, because I've been hearing about oil rage. Countries actually invading each other to control sources of oil. Whodathunk that would happen?

If ecars are the future, infrastructure has to catch up with demand. There's a lot of work to do. It's a vast changeover from one infrastructure system to another (or more accurately, they will exist in parallel).

I think a lot of those charge rage incidents aren't even between people who need the juice, they're just being petty. In general, if you have an ecar, you don't plan your trips dependent on getting charged at a public station. That's just a backup most of the time.

I've got an egolf and an electric Zero motorcycle, and we have a deposit on an unbuilt Tesla. It's a great way to go but we also have a gas car because at this point it's still difficult to count on charging.
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#2901081 - 01/10/18 07:43 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: WheelHead]
burningbusch Offline
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I had a deposit down on a Model 3 but decided against it. The delivery date became too much of a moving target and when I thought about my needs, a Model 3 would be ancillary transportation. I still needed a small SUV to get to the trailhead, go over the pass in the winter and, on occasion, haul a Rhodes, Wurly or similar. So I got an Outback.

Electrics are great. In WA state, electricity is cheap and 80% hydro generated. Teslas, and other electrics, abound here. But I'll catch the next wave when there are more choices.

Busch.

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#2901085 - 01/10/18 07:51 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: burningbusch]
burningbusch Offline
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I wonder how many people who plugin at work or at the mall, REALLY need charging? If I had an electric, I'd just plug it in every night (or most nights) knowing I'd have plenty of charge for the next day. I understand the need when taking longer trips, but it seems that when using one around town you'd easily get by charging at home.

Busch.

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#2901086 - 01/10/18 07:54 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: burningbusch]
WheelHead Offline
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Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 490
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
I wonder how many people who plugin at work or at the mall, REALLY need charging? If I had an electric, I'd just plug it in every night (or most nights) knowing I'd have plenty of charge for the next day. I understand the need when taking longer trips, but it seems that when using one around town you'd easily get by charging at home.

Busch.


I would think if it is 'free electricity' and the car can take the charge being depleted enough they are going to go for it to cut down the electric bill for the car. If the station is a vending machine or they become vending machines - they will charge at home unless they need it, IMO.

WH

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#2901089 - 01/10/18 08:00 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: waygetter]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: waygetter
there are not enough electric cars. More electric, more self driving, more technology, more more more.

Better, safer, cheaper.


Technology is great, but a car that is totally electric, with touch screens, voice commands, self-driving, and cameras to replace outside mirrors? Hmmmm.

Better? Maybe. Safer? That remains to be seen.

Cheaper? Not the initial investment. It takes time to realize any savings. Plus, those delightful tax incentives may be going away. And as I stated above, that fancy technology could malfunction, leaving the EV owner stranded... with a huge repair bill.

Just look online for info about Tesla build quality issues. razz
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#2901092 - 01/10/18 08:05 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Fusker Offline
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Loc: Raleigh, NC
Hold on, is it being suggested that someone that dropped $60k (round numbers) on a car needs to weasel out a $20 monthly savings on their home electric bill? Something is askew!
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#2901099 - 01/10/18 08:25 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Fusker]
WheelHead Offline
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Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 490
Originally Posted By: Fusker
Hold on, is it being suggested that someone that dropped $60k (round numbers) on a car needs to weasel out a $20 monthly savings on their home electric bill? Something is askew!


The Chevy Bolt (not Volt) voted 'car of the year' in some quarters I believe is $37K. Nissan Leafs are fairly inexpensive around $30K. You can get a used electric Smart Car for $8K on eBay or less (though I think there is a battery lease). Mitsubishi iMiev is $22K. Having bucks does not mean a person is not frugal to save money on electricity. Particularly the lady of the house, imo

WH

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#2901100 - 01/10/18 08:25 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: WheelHead]
Fusker Offline
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Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1413
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Good point, I was using a Tesla lens
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#2901102 - 01/10/18 08:28 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
GovernorSilver Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid

Technology is great, but a car that is totally electric, with touch screens, voice commands, self-driving, and cameras to replace outside mirrors? Hmmmm.


I definitely don't want all mirrors omitted in favor of cameras, nor touch screens replacing all physical buttons and knobs.

I recently rented a Ford Fusion. I liked the rear camera that activates when the car is put into reverse, super quiet hybrid engine, and fuel economy. I didn't like the push-button control of the parking brake, and the startup process - not very intuitive - and the big Start button and the dial to select P-R-D-etc. were not close to each other. If you're driving out in, say West Virginia or desert country, and you forgot to bring spare batteries, you could be in trouble because the car depends on that electronic remote to open/close the doors.

The pickup truck that I rented a couple of years ago, while also very electronic, was more intuitive - stick the key fob in a certain place and it starts.
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#2901105 - 01/10/18 08:43 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
WheelHead Offline
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Posts: 490
Easier to get ripped off in service for electric vehicles and hybrids. Take Prius: a couple of cells could go bad and it will show a digital error. The owner (who may remove the 85lb battery pack) exchanges it for a 'rebuilt' one and ships the exchange. Actually the 'rebuild' would be only replacing the bad cells. May be a couple of bad cells that are small enough to fit in your hand. They sell cells on eBay for like 40 bucks apiece and up or the rebuilder strips a used battery pack he has laying around for a couple of good cells. The customer may be paying $1200 or more for the swap and seems cheap but only a couple cells were changed on a bench that might take an hour or less, tested with an app then shipped back or this is shipped as rebuilt and rebuilder gets customer's old battery pack. The rebuilt is still used but the battery pack does not error now. Each cell has to have a certain voltage. When a cell or two drop voltage the owner gets a digital error on the dashboard. To be fair though an aftermarket battery pack new can be bought for around 1500 (4 to $5K for original) that has 14 round battery units instead of 28 rectangle ones . 36 new vs 3 month rebuild warranty.

WH

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#2901106 - 01/10/18 08:45 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
pizzafilms Offline
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Too many electric cars? Not enough, I say.

When I got my Tesla 2 years ago I had an electrician put in a 220 outlet in my garage for about $250. I plug in every night and the car's timer charges it at 1am when rates and demand are the lowest. Don't even notice the extra $30 or so on my electric bill.

The handful of times I've taken longer drives, using a supercharger was painlessly simple.

Never going back.

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#2901110 - 01/10/18 09:09 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: pizzafilms]
SteinwayB Offline
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Registered: 11/06/13
Posts: 111
Behringer is coming out with an electric car called the model S.

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#2901113 - 01/10/18 09:16 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: pizzafilms]
Synthoid Offline
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Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted By: pizzafilms
Too many electric cars? Not enough, I say.


Looking at the big picture right now, there aren't that many. But with all the new EV's being introduced, we're going to need a lot more charging stations by 2020.

There was a report a few months ago about people with gasoline cars parking in or blocking access to Tesla superchargers. facepalm

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#2901138 - 01/10/18 10:58 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Stokely Offline
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Registered: 12/15/12
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Loc: Florida
I'll definitely consider one for my next car. Family vacations aside (for which we could rent a car if we needed the range/side), I really don't drive that much on a given day. I don't like the idea of multiple proprietary charging networks though, and the infrastructure in general needs to be improved.

Self-driving can't get here quick enough. All you have to do is glance around at a stop light at all the idiots texting...whatever advantage people have over robot drivers they surrender by cramming their face into their phone.

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#2901144 - 01/10/18 11:25 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
GovernorSilver Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid

Looking at the big picture right now, there aren't that many. But with all the new EV's being introduced, we're going to need a lot more charging stations by 2020.


Assuming some other technology like hydrogen fuel cells, biofuel, etc. doesn't take off instead.

Whatever technological solutions emerge, they won't solve all your problems, that's for sure - like drivers who take up more than one parking space, play w/ mobile devices while driving, and that sort of thing.


Edited by GovernorSilver (01/10/18 11:33 AM)
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#2901154 - 01/10/18 12:16 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
harmonizer Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 791
Loc: NJ, USA
It's software. All software is defective, but if you use a particular piece of software in a common way, similar to how almost everyone uses it, it starts to seem that it is not defective. But it's still defective.

All computing platforms are hackable, and new cars are becoming more hackable with their increasing connectivity, not less so. So if we run software to enable a self-driving car, we will be running this defective but life-critical software on a hackable platform.

Assisting driving safety via front-end collision warning and lane-deviation warning is smart. And using cruise control in a car can relieve fatigue, so that's good too. Planes have autopilot but there are situations where the autopilot is programmed to disengage, and there is always supposed to be a pilot in the cockpit.

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#2901162 - 01/10/18 12:42 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
WheelHead Offline
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Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 490
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver


Assuming some other technology like hydrogen fuel cells, biofuel, etc. doesn't take off instead.

Whatever technological solutions emerge, they won't solve all your problems, that's for sure - like drivers who take up more than one parking space, play w/ mobile devices while driving, and that sort of thing.


Some thought natural gas would be popular. Honda did have (and may still) a version that used natural gas. The owner would have a compressor installed in the garage. (natural gas compresses under very high pressure not like much lower pressure propane where a sheet-metal welded tank can suffice - natural gas 'tanks' are more like scuba or acetylene tanks). Engines, supposedly, run very clean with natural gas and emissions are greatly reduced. Valve seats have to be hardened as natural gas engines can burn out valve seats. Range is not as much as gasoline. It is filled in the garage with a 'real-time' pump by pump consumer compressor or a pro setup where a gas station fill would have multi tanks in cascade and can fill in minutes. 2012, I believe, was the last year for the natural gas Honda Civic. Just looked: there is a 2009 on eBay now

WH

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#2901166 - 01/10/18 12:59 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: WheelHead]
GovernorSilver Online   content
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Originally Posted By: WheelHead
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver


Assuming some other technology like hydrogen fuel cells, biofuel, etc. doesn't take off instead.

Whatever technological solutions emerge, they won't solve all your problems, that's for sure - like drivers who take up more than one parking space, play w/ mobile devices while driving, and that sort of thing.


Some thought natural gas would be popular. Honda did have (and may still) a version that used natural gas. The owner would have a compressor installed in the garage. (natural gas compresses under very high pressure not like much lower pressure propane where a sheet-metal welded tank can suffice - natural gas 'tanks' are more like scuba or acetylene tanks). Engines, supposedly, run very clean with natural gas and emissions are greatly reduced. Valve seats have to be hardened as natural gas engines can burn out valve seats. Range is not as much as gasoline. It is filled in the garage with a 'real-time' pump by pump consumer compressor or a pro setup where a gas station fill would have multi tanks in cascade and can fill in minutes. 2012, I believe, was the last year for the natural gas Honda Civic. Just looked: there is a 2009 on eBay now

WH


Yeah, I remember the natural gas bandwagon.

Also the biofuel one. Brazil is well known as a major producer, making it from sugar cane. Not quite a dead end yet, as there still seems to be a lot of ongoing research.

Electric seems to be catching on faster than I thought it would. But there's still some competition for it, besides good ol' petroleum.


Edited by GovernorSilver (01/10/18 01:08 PM)
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#2901168 - 01/10/18 01:06 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
WheelHead Offline
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Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 490
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver


Yeah, I remember the natural gas bandwagon.

Also the biofuel one. I think they're still trying to raise corn in places like Montana in hopes of turning all that into biofuel. Algae was supposed to be better than corn, but the continuing low price of petroleum has killed the demand, at least for now.

Electric seems to be catching on faster than I thought it would. But there's still some competition for it, besides good ol' petroleum.


Yeap. ...and there are fuel cell cars now. If I am not mistaken Hyundai sells one. They are electric cars obviously but batteries are not main source of propelling - have tanks similar to natural gas except they hold hydrogen. Hydrogen can be made simply by electrolysis, that everyone knows, being from water or cracking natural gas.

WH

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#2901173 - 01/10/18 01:24 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: WheelHead]
GovernorSilver Online   content
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Originally Posted By: WheelHead


Yeap. ...and there are fuel cell cars now. If I am not mistaken Hyundai sells one. They are electric cars obviously but batteries are not main source of propelling - have tanks similar to natural gas except they hold hydrogen. Hydrogen can be made simply by electrolysis, that everyone knows, being from water or cracking natural gas.
laugh
WH


I remember reading about fuel cell in a Honda brochure too - I forgot how long ago it was - maybe 4 years? There were only 3 stations at the time - all in the Los Angeles area. According to Wikipedia, that number has risen to over 30, most still being in California laugh

Electric car technology does have an infrastructure advantage, so I guess I shouldn't have been so surprised that it's catching on the fastest out of all the non-petroleum-based options.

Maybe hydrogen fuel cells will catch on with airplanes before cars.

The German and Italian navies are using fuel cells in submarines now. Perhaps part of a secret plan to revive the Axis


Edited by GovernorSilver (01/10/18 01:26 PM)
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#2901177 - 01/10/18 01:28 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
Stokely Offline
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Registered: 12/15/12
Posts: 1904
Loc: Florida
I've been following a couple really in-depth threads over at arstechnica about these various techs...and fuel cell seems destined to lose. I can't repeat why, since I don't understand half the reasons those smarties there bring up, but other than one guy (that argues with the rest of them!) the consensus is that fuel cell just doesn't make sense. Toyota was all-in with it but since they've hedged bets and seem to be at least also trying all-electric.

Also fascinating are threads there talking about nuclear power when actual nuclear engineers working in plants or designing them start going back and forth smile

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#2901183 - 01/10/18 01:40 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Stokely]
GovernorSilver Online   content
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Musk's argument against fuel cell tech for cars is that the infrastructure simply isn't there for producing, transporting, and storing the fuel. Well, anywhere outside of California anyway.

Kind of makes sense because while more charging stations will have to be built to encourage the spread of electric cars, just about every American city has some kind of electrical power grid.

But there are other possible uses for fuel cells other than cars:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell


Edited by GovernorSilver (01/10/18 01:42 PM)
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#2901217 - 01/10/18 03:31 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
HammondDave Offline
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Registered: 01/20/08
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If all you doubters would just test drive a Model S with “Ludicrous Mode” your minds would change in an instant. Ever experience 0-60 in 2.9 seconds?...


Edited by HammondDave (01/10/18 03:32 PM)
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#2901221 - 01/10/18 03:41 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
I don't doubt the amazing performance... it's long-term reliability that I'm wondering about. That, and having enough charging stations wherever you go.
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#2901222 - 01/10/18 03:50 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: HammondDave]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: HammondDave
If all you doubters would just test drive a Model S with “Ludicrous Mode” your minds would change in an instant. Ever experience 0-60 in 2.9 seconds?...


As a matter of fact I have...back in my NHRA southwest division days in Arizona wink
My carbon footprint is probably huge with my current rods. grin

Even so, I think the Model S is very cool, and would love some road course track time with one.
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#2901226 - 01/10/18 04:06 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: EscapeRocks]
HammondDave Offline
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Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
Originally Posted By: HammondDave
If all you doubters would just test drive a Model S with “Ludicrous Mode” your minds would change in an instant. Ever experience 0-60 in 2.9 seconds?...


As a matter of fact I have...back in my NHRA southwest division days in Arizona wink
My carbon footprint is probably huge with my current rods. grin

Even so, I think the Model S is very cool, and would love some road course track time with one.


... Or an hour on the 405.
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#2901228 - 01/10/18 04:09 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: HammondDave]
HammondDave Offline
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To tell you the truth, I am now reconsidering my Model 3 purchase and may instead buy a 3 year old Model S off a lease for the same price.


Edited by HammondDave (01/10/18 04:10 PM)
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#2901244 - 01/10/18 05:37 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
waygetter Offline
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid
having enough charging stations wherever you go.

OK, but if you can get to 90% of the places you need to go, I'm sure you can come up with a plan to cover the other 10%
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#2901254 - 01/10/18 06:14 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: waygetter]
OB Dave Offline
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The vast majority of my driving is within ~200 miles of home, and there is a charging station in the town where I do all my skiing. I just need the range to get above ~500 miles before I'll be comfortable making the plunge. The roadster just announced has a claimed range of something like 650 miles. It's also well over $100k.

I think we'll get there, and Musk is moving the ball downfield faster than anyone else right now.

And for everything else, there's always rental cars. I have friends who always rent cars for long road trips simply because they don't want to put the miles on their own cars.

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#2901259 - 01/10/18 06:29 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: OB Dave]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: OB Dave
I just need the range to get above ~500 miles before I'll be comfortable making the plunge.


We could be seeing that within the next year.
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#2901270 - 01/10/18 07:14 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: HammondDave]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: HammondDave
Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
Originally Posted By: HammondDave
If all you doubters would just test drive a Model S with “Ludicrous Mode” your minds would change in an instant. Ever experience 0-60 in 2.9 seconds?...


As a matter of fact I have...back in my NHRA southwest division days in Arizona wink
My carbon footprint is probably huge with my current rods. grin

Even so, I think the Model S is very cool, and would love some road course track time with one.


... Or an hour on the 405.


grin like
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#2901272 - 01/10/18 07:29 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
U.Honey Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid
I don't doubt the amazing performance... it's long-term reliability that I'm wondering about.


I'm no expert on electric cars but in the electric motor there are only two moving part that touch each other. That is, only the bearings wear out. Therefore I would think that electric motor lasts a lot longer than a piston engine.
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#2901273 - 01/10/18 07:34 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
El Lobo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Originally Posted By: OB Dave
I just need the range to get above ~500 miles before I'll be comfortable making the plunge.


We could be seeing that within the next year.

That's what I'm waiting for. In a compact SUV model.

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#2901301 - 01/11/18 04:12 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: U.Honey]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: U.Honey
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
I don't doubt the amazing performance... it's long-term reliability that I'm wondering about.


I'm no expert on electric cars but in the electric motor there are only two moving part that touch each other. That is, only the bearings wear out. Therefore I would think that electric motor lasts a lot longer than a piston engine.


It's not that at all, but the digital technology. As mentioned earlier in the thread... most of these vehicles offer large touch screens, voice control, autopilot, cameras instead of outside mirrors, power door handles, etc. It's high-tech, but prone to failure.

Various Tesla owners have complained of build quality issues as well. Plenty of reports online.

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#2901310 - 01/11/18 05:14 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Markay Offline
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The tech available in Tesla's is also available in many mid market and top the range vehicles. Touch screen have been widely available for 6 or more years now.

It comes down to the quality of the tech. Other manufacturers have had many years experience in quality control and have incrementally introduced each new innovation.

Tesla may have the largest touch screen but others e.g. MB have chosen to split their systems across two screens and retained knobs for some common functions.

Menu diving on a touch screen is not necessarily the safest way to change the AC temp while driving.

I read an article recently in which McLaren were discussing battery power. They made the point that battery drain to power ancillary systems such as steering, cooling or heating, lights and wipers can be more than 50%.

Until there is a breakthrough in battery technology plug-in hybrids remain the most practical and clean city and country driving solution without range anxiety or the need spend several hours recharging half way through a journey. Assuming there is a charging station available near the point where the battery is nearly flat.
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#2901313 - 01/11/18 05:25 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Markay]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markay
It comes down to the quality of the tech.


Absolutely.

Having a huge screen is nice, but also having a few supplementary buttons or switches would be reassuring.




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#2901321 - 01/11/18 05:36 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Markay Offline
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Chinese innovation. One day we will not be laughing, a little way to go yet though.
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#2901323 - 01/11/18 05:39 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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I do like the smaller touch screen in the steering wheel. Much safer than reaching over to a center console.
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#2901332 - 01/11/18 06:32 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
stillearning Offline
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I’ve been looking at Tesla, but am going to wait on going electric. I do think the electric motor is by far more sensible than the internal combustion engine. If we had been electric all along, and the the ICE was being newly promoted, the concept would be widely ridiculed. Pumping stations dispensing highly flammable, even explosive liquids on every corner in residential areas, and then driving around, sitting on top of that very liquid in the underbelly of a car? Unthinkable!

The biggest issue, I’d imagine, if the public were to change over en masse, would be the electric utilities inability to meet the increased demand. Generation, distribution, everything related would need addressing. Slowly, over time, quite feasible, I’d wager.


Edited by stillearning (01/11/18 06:36 AM)
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#2901340 - 01/11/18 07:29 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: stillearning]
Stokely Offline
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Actually the main reason I personally will hold off is that I don't want to hit bugs and other early adopter issues, and want to see what support is like. I do the same with keyboards, computers and just about everything else for that matter! Cars especially, since a bug could be catastrophic. For a given model, I'd probably wait a few years. I'd be perfectly ok with the ones that have been around that long if they met my price and other needs (prius etc), but Tesla, not yet.

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#2901351 - 01/11/18 07:41 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Problem is, many of the inexpensive EV cars are quite small with a short driving range. frown
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#2901360 - 01/11/18 08:05 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Adan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Problem is, many of the inexpensive EV cars are quite small with a short driving range. frown



It's a problem if you need to haul a B3/122. But a Mojo/SS3/Sub will do the job just fine.
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#2901363 - 01/11/18 08:09 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Probably not this little beauty though.


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#2901364 - 01/11/18 08:11 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Adan]
stillearning Offline
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Originally Posted By: Adan

It's a problem if you need to haul a B3/122. But a Mojo/SS3/Sub will do the job just fine.

Tesla is making an electric semi for that, now.
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#2901381 - 01/11/18 08:42 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: stillearning]
harmonizer Offline
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Before touch screens, cars had controls which minimized how much a driver needed to move their eyes away from the road, in order to use them. Maybe you needed to glance quickly to locate the Defrost button/control on your dashboard, but it was only a quick glance.

My wife's 2005 Prius requires one to do at least one level of menu diving on the touch screen, in order to turn on the defroster for the front windshield. But a front window defroster is a critical safety feature. Some other cars might even have worse examples of dependency on touch screen functions, and I think this is a terrible trend.

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#2901386 - 01/11/18 08:51 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Did someone say "menu diving?"


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#2901399 - 01/11/18 09:22 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
WheelHead Offline
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Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 490
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Probably not this little beauty though.






Thats the iMiev I believe. It is a small, cute car. Rear wheel drive and it is said that the interior is 'chintzy' but this is the cheapest EV other than the Smart EV (that you have to lease the battery)

Smart, made by Mercedes, no long ships the gasoline car to the US (only EV for 2018) as it was a terrible seller excepting the first year it was out in US 2008 - they sold over 30,000 I think- with a lot of bad publicity US buyers were scared away. After 2008, glut of sales, the industry and the paid, publication auto-writer-shills, imo, went after the car so it did not 'take off' like the old air cooled Beetle that it has similarities to. It's actually a very quality car - ask the owners. They have shipped toward 2 million gas models worldwide. US never got the diesel version said to get up towards 60-70mpg. Canada did. A lot of diesel versions outside the US have 250,000 miles and up. Probably good the diesel was not in the US. It was slower and the car would have been driven or honked off the road by the stereotypical, young-aggressive US driver in a pick-up. Lol!

WH

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#2901417 - 01/11/18 10:34 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: WheelHead]
GovernorSilver Online   content
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Took another look at the Honda website - to confuse matters a bit they have introduced a "Plug-In Hybrid" model. I guess the difference is that you can't plug in regular hybrids, and the gas engine only takes over when you run out of battery... or something.

Honda still hasn't given up on fuel cell. I'm guessing after a couple years, they'll iron on the kinks in the Clarity models, assuming they don't decide to just kill that line and reuse its best features in the Accord and other models.

https://blog.caranddriver.com/three-shad...clarity-models/
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#2901441 - 01/11/18 12:58 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Joe Muscara Offline
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As someone who did a bit of work with alternative fuels in college (though it's been a while), I'm qualified to comment on some things. wink

Originally Posted By: WheelHead
Engines, supposedly, run very clean with natural gas and emissions are greatly reduced. Valve seats have to be hardened as natural gas engines can burn out valve seats. Range is not as much as gasoline.
Yes, they do run much cleaner. A NGV will look like it's brand new when you disassemble it, compared to a gasoline engine that will be filled with deposits. This is good and bad. The good is obvious, the bad is that the deposits tend to lubricate and protect the engine components. This is pretty easily fixable with good maintenance of NGVs and some minor changes like valve seats as mentioned. There are tons of fleet vehicles running NGVs out there and they do well.

Of course, fleet vehicles mostly run around town, and that's okay with the limited range of NG as a fuel. It's funny, you can run NG like it has a higher octane and get more power out of it, but because of the lower energy content, you don't get the range for a similar quantity/volume of fuel.

Originally Posted By: Synthoid
it's long-term reliability that I'm wondering about.
I'm not as concerned about that as far as what other people posted, but when I read this article last fall, it struck home having seen other automobile manufacturers not get this either when I was engineering.

https://mondaynote.com/teslas-new-car-smell-315c72c955d3

Quote:
My first serious doubts about Tesla didn’t stem from missed schedules, I’ve been guilty of too many of these, they’re part of tech life. What seriously worried me was a July 2016 visit to Tesla’s manufacturing plant in Fremont, California. In taking delivery of my wife’s Model S, we were treated to a group tour of the site. Everyone marveled at the robot porn, at the activity on the assembly line, at the endless stores of spare parts piled to the ceiling.

Everyone but yours truly. […]

As I watched Tesla’s messy, hiccuping line, with workers dashing in to fix faulty parts in place, my mind travelled back to the Honda plant I had visited years ago in Marysville, Ohio. Clean, calm, everything moved smoothly. I was so shocked by the contrast that I imprudently voiced my concern. That didn’t go over well with my fellow Tesla owners. I was a killjoy, I was calling their choice into question.
I have no issues with Musk or Tesla and I sincerely wish him/them well, but I highly suspect his current ability to run a modern, lean, mass-production facility. He simply has no experience with it. If he hasn't already, he should higher some people who have LOTS of experience with this.
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#2901443 - 01/11/18 01:13 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Joe Muscara]
J. Dan Offline
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I have literally never seen a charging station anywhere I've gone throughout the Midwest. If I was just running around town and could rely on home charging, that would be one thing. But for my job I do a lot of long drives - St. Louis to Memphis, Indy, Cincinnati, KC, etc. Same with rental cars when I fly out some where. This week would have been impossible with an electric car as I drove from El Paso, TX, to Carlsbad, NM, a couple trips back and forth between Carlsbad and Artesia, then on to Odessa, TX. You're lucky to even find a gas station for very long stretches much less a charging station.

Then I think about some of my vacations driving to CO, FL, SD, etc.


Edited by J. Dan (01/11/18 01:16 PM)
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#2901450 - 01/11/18 01:34 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Joe Muscara]
WheelHead Offline
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Originally Posted By: Joe BrokeIt
I have no issues with Musk or Tesla and I sincerely wish him/them well, but I highly suspect his current ability to run a modern, lean, mass-production facility. He simply has no experience with it. If he hasn't already, he should higher some people who have LOTS of experience with this.


Musk now is into warning 'John the Baptist' style, so to speak, of AI (artificial intelligence) going out of control and controlling humanity

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#2901458 - 01/11/18 03:09 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Joe Muscara]
mate stubb Offline
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Quote:

As I watched Tesla’s messy, hiccuping line, with workers dashing in to fix faulty parts in place, my mind travelled back to the Honda plant I had visited years ago in Marysville, Ohio. Clean, calm, everything moved smoothly. I was so shocked by the contrast that I imprudently voiced my concern. That didn’t go over well with my fellow Tesla owners. I was a killjoy, I was calling their choice into question.


I once toured a Fisher body plant. Not the sanitized public tour, but behind the scenes with some employees we met at our gig. Big mistake - I'll never buy a GM car again.

Guys jumping up and down making ape noises, welders so busy shooting sparks at each other that the line goes by and they miss their welds, fast food bags being stuffed into car cavities before they are sealed up, giant wads of bondo being used to conceal dents and creases on the line. No thanks!
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#2901509 - 01/11/18 10:06 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Joe Muscara]
Lady Gaia Offline
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Registered: 11/18/17
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I found the experience of actually owning an electric car to be dramatically different from how most people envision it. Road trips aside, I’ve rarely charged my Model S anywhere but my garage in five years of ownership. It’s just unnecessary so long as you have enough range to get through the day. Much more convenient to plug it in at home and start every day as charged as I want to be. If you don’t have a dedicated indoor parking space it’s doubtless a completely different story and I simply wouldn’t recommend buying an EV at this point. We moved to a condo this past year and made sure we had dedicated spaces indoors where we were able to install chargers.

As for the Model 3 schedule? It’s about as on track as you could reasonably expect given the complexity of the ramp. We were told from the beginning the window for our delivery extended to the end of this month, and got our call to configure only a few days into it. We could have finished configuring immediately and had it at the end of the month, but we’re planning to hold out for the AWD version. In the meantime we have a leased i3 as our second car, and the lease is up around the time the AWD avalilability is expected to start. We’ll see.

Installing fast chargers in a work environment is, frankly, silly. It’s a waste of employee time to run out and move the car to free the charger for whoever needs it. It would make much more sense to put in 120v outlets and let people trickle charge throughout the day. I had enough range from day one with a 60 mile round-trip commute that I didn’t bother at all after the first few times for novelty’s sake.


Edited by Lady Gaia (01/11/18 10:10 PM)
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#2901564 - 01/12/18 06:59 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Then we will have the Apple EV experience:

* Available in two colors only.
* Non-replaceable batteries.
* Windows can't be opened.
* Animated emoji turn signal lights.
* Ultra sleek... no storage space.
* Only chargeable at authorized iCharge stations and expensive home installations.
* Will only allow you to visit cities Siri considers safe.
* Horsepower will be throttled back after 4 years.
* Front or back windshield replacement cost $10,000.
* Extended AppleCare warranty $15,000.

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#2901598 - 01/12/18 08:39 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
GovernorSilver Online   content
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Just make me an EV that has keyholes, so I can open/close the doors without batteries.
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#2901619 - 01/12/18 09:53 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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I don't think that's gonna happen. idk
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#2901623 - 01/12/18 10:20 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
Jazzmammal Offline
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EV's are still not economical to produce, the financial press has talked about how Musk is losing about 4K per car and the other EV's are losers as well. Maybe he's making it up with his other businesses, don't know. Obama got things going with huge taxpayer subsidies not just with tax credits to the consumer but to the manufacturers as well. Most of that has either gone away or is going away this year with the new tax bill.

Like most on this forum, I'm a tech nerd I love this stuff and think these EV's are great BUT...without subsidies on both sides of the equation nobody but the hipster Silicon Valley types will buy them compared to their gasoline competition. You have to look past the high tech wizardry and look at how much does it really cost without all the government help.

I'm rooting for this tech because I believe in it and think it is the future of transportation but economically it's just not there yet. Musk is a visionary and he obviously believes in it as well. But, there are a lot of investment pros who think Tesla's stock is way overvalued. This is the reason the other manufactures have stuck their toes into EV's because they want to look hip but they are strictly loss leaders. A lot of this is proprietary inside info but most think the Chevy Volt/Bolts while good cars are financial losers for GM. Time will tell.

Bob

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#2901645 - 01/12/18 11:09 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Jazzmammal]
Adan Offline
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What you say is plausibly true, and yet at a business proposition these companies want to be positioned for a windfall when economics reaches the tipping point, that's why they're out in front even when losing money on each unit. It's going to happen, the big gamble is when.

Lots of EVs here in the Bay Area, and most of them are not in the hands of "hipster silicon valley types," though it's fair to say many owners are early adopters, meaning they're willing to open their wallet wider to encourage the technology.

What sometimes gets lost in the dollar-for-dollar comparison to gas cars is just how pleasant and life-simplifying it is to have an EV for transportation. There's a real value in that. The only way to know how much it is worth to you is to try it. But I think if more folks did, they'd be surprised at how motivated they feel to go from gas to E, not for any save-the-planet reason, but just for the quality of life value added.
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#2901646 - 01/12/18 11:11 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
GovernorSilver Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid
I don't think that's gonna happen. idk



The 2018 Volt still has keyholes - at least from what I can see of the door handles.

http://www.chevrolet.com/electric/volt-plug-in-hybrid
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#2901655 - 01/12/18 11:51 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Lady Gaia]
Morrisseysixman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 179
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Lady Gaia
Installing fast chargers in a work environment is, frankly, silly. It’s a waste of employee time to run out and move the car to free the charger for whoever needs it. It would make much more sense to put in 120v outlets and let people trickle charge throughout the day.


This plan is successful where I work.

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#2901658 - 01/12/18 11:59 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Adan]
Morrisseysixman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 179
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Adan
What sometimes gets lost in the dollar-for-dollar comparison to gas cars is just how pleasant and life-simplifying it is to have an EV for transportation. There's a real value in that. The only way to know how much it is worth to you is to try it. But I think if more folks did, they'd be surprised at how motivated they feel to go from gas to E, not for any save-the-planet reason, but just for the quality of life value added.


+1. I got an EV based on the financial analysis and assuming I would yearn to return to an ICE, but I have fallen hard for the EV. Not going back!

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#2901664 - 01/12/18 12:45 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Jazzmammal]
Lady Gaia Offline
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Registered: 11/18/17
Posts: 84
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: Jazzmammal
EV's are still not economical to produce, the financial press has talked about how Musk is losing about 4K per car and the other EV's are losers as well.


The cost of design, setting up new production facilities, getting the ball rolling with fast chargers for road trips and doing the initial rounds of cost reduction make the business look a lot less profitable than it would be at steady-state. Analysis of Tesla’s profitability tends to be absurdly bullish or bearish depending on whether you think there’s a future in the EV market. If you weigh the costs of designing the Model 3 and setting up production lines for high volume production against the profit from comparatively niche Model S and X sales then of course things look dire.

Quote:
Obama got things going with huge taxpayer subsidies not just with tax credits to the consumer but to the manufacturers as well.


I can never keep track of the maze of subsidies we use to incentivize various businesses and manufacturing in this country, so I can’t say anything definitive, but the overt loans that were made to help Tesla in the early days have long since been paid back with interest. Comparing what breaks may be left against government assistance offered to oil and gas is an exercise left to the reader and I’m not sure who it favors.

From a pure consumer standpoint, though? Individual states still offer incentives regardless of what happens with the federal rebate. The latter isn’t going away any faster than originally planned, either, it’s just likely to hit its natural sunset somewhere around the middle of this year. In any case, EV costs have been coming down with the $35k base Model 3 before incentives being pretty attractive to more than just the Silicon Valley crowd.
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#2901692 - 01/12/18 04:12 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
I don't think that's gonna happen. idk



The 2018 Volt still has keyholes - at least from what I can see of the door handles.


I'm referring to what I've seen with the Tesla vehicles. No key whatsoever for Model 3. Not sure about the S.

EV cars of the future will most likely be keyless.
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#2901695 - 01/12/18 04:39 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
David Emm Offline
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For me, the bigger issue is that lithium is bad news and in limited supply. Part of the warring over Afghanistan is that its a wealth of untapped minerals. Historically, if you have the poor luck to be born near a nice cache of resources, get ready for various forms of struggling over it. China bought up a large chunk of the copper rights in the southern part of the country. Such common actions affect all markets, not just cars, iPads or synths.

Besides, lithium batteries blow up because the physics aren't right for the job. I keep reading about much safer and more flexible battery designs, hoping one will catch on and be market-scalable. I have no doubt that Duracell and other companies are hot on the trail of something new, such as the winning non-lithium design a young woman devised that charges and discharges as rapidly as desired, through many more cycles than what we currently experience. I like the idea of e-cars, of course, but I want 'em at least partly solar-rechargable, featuring a battery that doesn't come with the tech issues and socio-political weight of lithium. In addition, I am morally opposed to a battery that may set my arse on FIRE! wacko
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#2901709 - 01/12/18 05:55 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
GovernorSilver Online   content
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: Washington DC
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
I don't think that's gonna happen. idk



The 2018 Volt still has keyholes - at least from what I can see of the door handles.


I'm referring to what I've seen with the Tesla vehicles. No key whatsoever for Model 3. Not sure about the S.

EV cars of the future will most likely be keyless.


What some of you have posted about Tesla and the build quality hasn't been encouraging.

The Chevy looks a bit better.

Maybe I'm just more of a Honda kind of person.


Edited by GovernorSilver (01/12/18 05:57 PM)
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#2901744 - 01/12/18 11:11 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: David Emm]
Lady Gaia Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/17
Posts: 84
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: David Emm
For me, the bigger issue is that lithium is bad news and in limited supply. Part of the warring over Afghanistan is that its a wealth of untapped minerals.


While I understand your root concern, Afghanistan is not a major source of lithium. Most of the known supply is in Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Australia and China. Given how much conflict and corruption is directly tied to oil and gas I’m not sure avoiding an EV helps reduce the potential for industry-driven global conflict.

Quote:
Besides, lithium batteries blow up because the physics aren't right for the job.


I tracked Tesla-related incidents pretty closely in the early years of our ownership, and they simply don’t experience anything like the catastrophe you’re suggesting. Road hazards have punched straight into the battery and the worst that has happened is a slow fire. Gasoline vehicles catch on fire more regularly for similar reasons - readily available stored energy has straightforward release vectors. Except gasoline has a higher energy density, for better and worse.

Quote:
I like the idea of e-cars, of course, but I want 'em at least partly solar-rechargable


They’re already solar rechargeable, 100% so if you are so inclined and have the roof space or vacant land. Actually carrying the solar panels and associated hardware makes zero sense, because it’s just extra mass you have to move. Solar arrays work better as fixed installations that produce electricity in its wonderfully fungible form that can be used for a wide range of purposes including but not limited to recharging your car.
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#2901745 - 01/12/18 11:35 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Lady Gaia]
Markay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 3075
Loc: Australia
Not sure that the concept of roof mounted solar panels is not feasible. There are a number of luxury cars that have full glass roofs. Combined with fact that thanks to Chinese output the cost of solar panels is plummeting surely it should be possible to use the vehicle roof as a solar panel.

While it may not create enough power to fully charge the battery it may offset the power to run the AC and therefore act as a range extender.

Also there a wide range of EV's in use in other parts of the world. BMW I3's are everywhere on the streets of London, particularly as EV's or PHEV's avoid the congestion tax, and are in the lowest bracket for company owned vehicles which in the UK are taxed on CO emissions.

Also on the major M roads, the M6 for example in my personal experience, every fuel and food stop has charging stations ( subsidised by the EU, another Brexit headache). So it is practical there to use the same EV you cruise around London in tax free to drive to Glasgow. But it is still going to longer than the time to eat an M&S sandwich and drink a Costa coffee to charge it.
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#2902131 - 01/14/18 09:26 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Lady Gaia]
David Emm Offline
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Registered: 09/14/12
Posts: 1204
Loc: Solder Huffer's Gulch
Thanks for the added information, especially concerning international mineral deposits. I should have Svenned one layer deeper, no pun intended. Relief maps, surveys and tonnage reports are there for the plucking.

I'm glad your e-car experience has been so positive. I have a friend who swears by his Volt. You are correct about gas-fueled cars having the worse safety record by comparison, no question. Its also not as if any type of battery explodes as an ongoing daily threat. I simply feel restless over it because "we" make so many remarkable technological leaps ahead, its easy to feel impatient. Take this article as you will, but its a good example of my point. I'm sure the bad jokes will blossom, so be prepared. puff

Cannibattery??

Its a shame that graphene production all but demands a positive-pressure clean room. Inhaling the very fine particles of its applicable version would be like sucking down broken glass. Its a daunting issue for both makers and potential users.

Your comments about hauling solar panels feeds back into my disquiet concerning batteries, as material availability decides the final Yes or No of it. I'm mightily pleased to have USB and flash drives. How about some new tech-magic, like a 3-day battery life at high draw, or a Roland KC amp that doesn't sound like proverbial @$$? grin

Thanks for the enhancing input and welcome to KC!
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#2902152 - 01/15/18 03:19 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: David Emm]
J. Dan Offline
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Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 12425
Loc: St. Louis, MO
With regards to solar: to offer any benefit, the panels must generate more energy that what is used to move the added weight. Consider the following:
1) even in a flat surface, acceleration from zero to cruising speed has mass as one factor - more mass, more energy to accelerate
2) uphill, the energy needed to move more mass against the acceleration of gravity can be significant
3) one may think going back downhill would make up for it, except often you're breaking, which is wasting that energy. Even if the car uses dynamic braking to charge the batteries, due to inefficiency, you only recapture a small fraction
4) even coasting speed on a flat level surface, you have additional rolling friction from the extra weight.

A pretty good example of what's needed to produce more energy than what is consumed and have a net positive production of energy is a solar car. Many universities, including my own, have competitions. I was never on the solar car team but they have an article in our alumni publication every year. To compete, they need to make them extremely light with only one passenger. They need to have a very large surface area (horizontally) o capture enough energy. They aren't shaped anything like a normal car. Typically more like this:



A typical car design would not have enough surface area on top to generate enough power to offset the extra weight of the panels themselves, mounting, charging system, etc.

They are great when stationary because you don't need to overcome the extra energy to move them around.

That's not to say that it won't change in the future with lighter materials and higher efficiency photovoltaics.
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#2902229 - 01/15/18 08:23 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
WheelHead Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 490
Ford announcement: (Article dated Sunday Jan 14, 2018)

"Ford Motor Co. will significantly increase its planned investments in electric vehicles to $11 billion by 2022 and have 40 hybrid and fully electric vehicles in its model lineup, Chairman Bill Ford said on Sunday at the Detroit auto show.

The investment figure is sharply higher than a previously announced target of $4.5 billion by 2020, Ford executives said, and includes the costs of developing dedicated electric vehicle architectures. Ford's engineering, research and development expenses for 2016, the last full year available, were $7.3 billion, up from $6.7 billion in 2015.

Ford Chief Executive Jim Hackett told investors last October the automaker would slash $14 billion in costs over the next five years and shift capital investment away from sedans and internal combustion engines to develop more trucks and electric and hybrid cars."

WH

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