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#2901443 - 01/11/18 01:13 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Joe Muscara]
J. Dan Offline
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Loc: St. Louis, MO
I have literally never seen a charging station anywhere I've gone throughout the Midwest. If I was just running around town and could rely on home charging, that would be one thing. But for my job I do a lot of long drives - St. Louis to Memphis, Indy, Cincinnati, KC, etc. Same with rental cars when I fly out some where. This week would have been impossible with an electric car as I drove from El Paso, TX, to Carlsbad, NM, a couple trips back and forth between Carlsbad and Artesia, then on to Odessa, TX. You're lucky to even find a gas station for very long stretches much less a charging station.

Then I think about some of my vacations driving to CO, FL, SD, etc.


Edited by J. Dan (01/11/18 01:16 PM)
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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KC Island
#2901450 - 01/11/18 01:34 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Joe Muscara]
WheelHead Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 485
Originally Posted By: Joe BrokeIt
I have no issues with Musk or Tesla and I sincerely wish him/them well, but I highly suspect his current ability to run a modern, lean, mass-production facility. He simply has no experience with it. If he hasn't already, he should higher some people who have LOTS of experience with this.


Musk now is into warning 'John the Baptist' style, so to speak, of AI (artificial intelligence) going out of control and controlling humanity

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#2901458 - 01/11/18 03:09 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Joe Muscara]
mate stubb Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 16081
Quote:

As I watched Teslaís messy, hiccuping line, with workers dashing in to fix faulty parts in place, my mind travelled back to the Honda plant I had visited years ago in Marysville, Ohio. Clean, calm, everything moved smoothly. I was so shocked by the contrast that I imprudently voiced my concern. That didnít go over well with my fellow Tesla owners. I was a killjoy, I was calling their choice into question.


I once toured a Fisher body plant. Not the sanitized public tour, but behind the scenes with some employees we met at our gig. Big mistake - I'll never buy a GM car again.

Guys jumping up and down making ape noises, welders so busy shooting sparks at each other that the line goes by and they miss their welds, fast food bags being stuffed into car cavities before they are sealed up, giant wads of bondo being used to conceal dents and creases on the line. No thanks!
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#2901509 - 01/11/18 10:06 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Joe Muscara]
Lady Gaia Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/17
Posts: 72
Loc: Seattle
I found the experience of actually owning an electric car to be dramatically different from how most people envision it. Road trips aside, Iíve rarely charged my Model S anywhere but my garage in five years of ownership. Itís just unnecessary so long as you have enough range to get through the day. Much more convenient to plug it in at home and start every day as charged as I want to be. If you donít have a dedicated indoor parking space itís doubtless a completely different story and I simply wouldnít recommend buying an EV at this point. We moved to a condo this past year and made sure we had dedicated spaces indoors where we were able to install chargers.

As for the Model 3 schedule? Itís about as on track as you could reasonably expect given the complexity of the ramp. We were told from the beginning the window for our delivery extended to the end of this month, and got our call to configure only a few days into it. We could have finished configuring immediately and had it at the end of the month, but weíre planning to hold out for the AWD version. In the meantime we have a leased i3 as our second car, and the lease is up around the time the AWD avalilability is expected to start. Weíll see.

Installing fast chargers in a work environment is, frankly, silly. Itís a waste of employee time to run out and move the car to free the charger for whoever needs it. It would make much more sense to put in 120v outlets and let people trickle charge throughout the day. I had enough range from day one with a 60 mile round-trip commute that I didnít bother at all after the first few times for noveltyís sake.


Edited by Lady Gaia (01/11/18 10:10 PM)
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#2901564 - 01/12/18 06:59 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 10258
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Then we will have the Apple EV experience:

* Available in two colors only.
* Non-replaceable batteries.
* Windows can't be opened.
* Animated emoji turn signal lights.
* Ultra sleek... no storage space.
* Only chargeable at authorized iCharge stations and expensive home installations.
* Will only allow you to visit cities Siri considers safe.
* Horsepower will be throttled back after 4 years.
* Front or back windshield replacement cost $10,000.
* Extended AppleCare warranty $15,000.

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#2901598 - 01/12/18 08:39 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5795
Loc: Washington DC
Just make me an EV that has keyholes, so I can open/close the doors without batteries.
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#2901619 - 01/12/18 09:53 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 10258
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
I don't think that's gonna happen. idk
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#2901623 - 01/12/18 10:20 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
Jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
EV's are still not economical to produce, the financial press has talked about how Musk is losing about 4K per car and the other EV's are losers as well. Maybe he's making it up with his other businesses, don't know. Obama got things going with huge taxpayer subsidies not just with tax credits to the consumer but to the manufacturers as well. Most of that has either gone away or is going away this year with the new tax bill.

Like most on this forum, I'm a tech nerd I love this stuff and think these EV's are great BUT...without subsidies on both sides of the equation nobody but the hipster Silicon Valley types will buy them compared to their gasoline competition. You have to look past the high tech wizardry and look at how much does it really cost without all the government help.

I'm rooting for this tech because I believe in it and think it is the future of transportation but economically it's just not there yet. Musk is a visionary and he obviously believes in it as well. But, there are a lot of investment pros who think Tesla's stock is way overvalued. This is the reason the other manufactures have stuck their toes into EV's because they want to look hip but they are strictly loss leaders. A lot of this is proprietary inside info but most think the Chevy Volt/Bolts while good cars are financial losers for GM. Time will tell.

Bob

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#2901645 - 01/12/18 11:09 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Jazzmammal]
Adan Offline
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Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 2582
Loc: San Francisco
What you say is plausibly true, and yet at a business proposition these companies want to be positioned for a windfall when economics reaches the tipping point, that's why they're out in front even when losing money on each unit. It's going to happen, the big gamble is when.

Lots of EVs here in the Bay Area, and most of them are not in the hands of "hipster silicon valley types," though it's fair to say many owners are early adopters, meaning they're willing to open their wallet wider to encourage the technology.

What sometimes gets lost in the dollar-for-dollar comparison to gas cars is just how pleasant and life-simplifying it is to have an EV for transportation. There's a real value in that. The only way to know how much it is worth to you is to try it. But I think if more folks did, they'd be surprised at how motivated they feel to go from gas to E, not for any save-the-planet reason, but just for the quality of life value added.
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#2901646 - 01/12/18 11:11 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5795
Loc: Washington DC
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
I don't think that's gonna happen. idk



The 2018 Volt still has keyholes - at least from what I can see of the door handles.

http://www.chevrolet.com/electric/volt-plug-in-hybrid
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#2901655 - 01/12/18 11:51 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Lady Gaia]
Morrisseysixman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Lady Gaia
Installing fast chargers in a work environment is, frankly, silly. Itís a waste of employee time to run out and move the car to free the charger for whoever needs it. It would make much more sense to put in 120v outlets and let people trickle charge throughout the day.


This plan is successful where I work.

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#2901658 - 01/12/18 11:59 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Adan]
Morrisseysixman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Adan
What sometimes gets lost in the dollar-for-dollar comparison to gas cars is just how pleasant and life-simplifying it is to have an EV for transportation. There's a real value in that. The only way to know how much it is worth to you is to try it. But I think if more folks did, they'd be surprised at how motivated they feel to go from gas to E, not for any save-the-planet reason, but just for the quality of life value added.


+1. I got an EV based on the financial analysis and assuming I would yearn to return to an ICE, but I have fallen hard for the EV. Not going back!

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#2901664 - 01/12/18 12:45 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Jazzmammal]
Lady Gaia Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/17
Posts: 72
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: Jazzmammal
EV's are still not economical to produce, the financial press has talked about how Musk is losing about 4K per car and the other EV's are losers as well.


The cost of design, setting up new production facilities, getting the ball rolling with fast chargers for road trips and doing the initial rounds of cost reduction make the business look a lot less profitable than it would be at steady-state. Analysis of Teslaís profitability tends to be absurdly bullish or bearish depending on whether you think thereís a future in the EV market. If you weigh the costs of designing the Model 3 and setting up production lines for high volume production against the profit from comparatively niche Model S and X sales then of course things look dire.

Quote:
Obama got things going with huge taxpayer subsidies not just with tax credits to the consumer but to the manufacturers as well.


I can never keep track of the maze of subsidies we use to incentivize various businesses and manufacturing in this country, so I canít say anything definitive, but the overt loans that were made to help Tesla in the early days have long since been paid back with interest. Comparing what breaks may be left against government assistance offered to oil and gas is an exercise left to the reader and Iím not sure who it favors.

From a pure consumer standpoint, though? Individual states still offer incentives regardless of what happens with the federal rebate. The latter isnít going away any faster than originally planned, either, itís just likely to hit its natural sunset somewhere around the middle of this year. In any case, EV costs have been coming down with the $35k base Model 3 before incentives being pretty attractive to more than just the Silicon Valley crowd.
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Electric: Schecter C-1 Classic + Hellraiser Extreme

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#2901692 - 01/12/18 04:12 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 10258
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
I don't think that's gonna happen. idk



The 2018 Volt still has keyholes - at least from what I can see of the door handles.


I'm referring to what I've seen with the Tesla vehicles. No key whatsoever for Model 3. Not sure about the S.

EV cars of the future will most likely be keyless.
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To stop the flow of music would be like the stopping of time itself, incredible and inconceivable.
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#2901695 - 01/12/18 04:39 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
David Emm Offline
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Registered: 09/14/12
Posts: 1146
Loc: Solder Huffer's Gulch
For me, the bigger issue is that lithium is bad news and in limited supply. Part of the warring over Afghanistan is that its a wealth of untapped minerals. Historically, if you have the poor luck to be born near a nice cache of resources, get ready for various forms of struggling over it. China bought up a large chunk of the copper rights in the southern part of the country. Such common actions affect all markets, not just cars, iPads or synths.

Besides, lithium batteries blow up because the physics aren't right for the job. I keep reading about much safer and more flexible battery designs, hoping one will catch on and be market-scalable. I have no doubt that Duracell and other companies are hot on the trail of something new, such as the winning non-lithium design a young woman devised that charges and discharges as rapidly as desired, through many more cycles than what we currently experience. I like the idea of e-cars, of course, but I want 'em at least partly solar-rechargable, featuring a battery that doesn't come with the tech issues and socio-political weight of lithium. In addition, I am morally opposed to a battery that may set my arse on FIRE! wacko
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#2901709 - 01/12/18 05:55 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5795
Loc: Washington DC
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
I don't think that's gonna happen. idk



The 2018 Volt still has keyholes - at least from what I can see of the door handles.


I'm referring to what I've seen with the Tesla vehicles. No key whatsoever for Model 3. Not sure about the S.

EV cars of the future will most likely be keyless.


What some of you have posted about Tesla and the build quality hasn't been encouraging.

The Chevy looks a bit better.

Maybe I'm just more of a Honda kind of person.


Edited by GovernorSilver (01/12/18 05:57 PM)
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#2901744 - 01/12/18 11:11 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: David Emm]
Lady Gaia Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/17
Posts: 72
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: David Emm
For me, the bigger issue is that lithium is bad news and in limited supply. Part of the warring over Afghanistan is that its a wealth of untapped minerals.


While I understand your root concern, Afghanistan is not a major source of lithium. Most of the known supply is in Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Australia and China. Given how much conflict and corruption is directly tied to oil and gas Iím not sure avoiding an EV helps reduce the potential for industry-driven global conflict.

Quote:
Besides, lithium batteries blow up because the physics aren't right for the job.


I tracked Tesla-related incidents pretty closely in the early years of our ownership, and they simply donít experience anything like the catastrophe youíre suggesting. Road hazards have punched straight into the battery and the worst that has happened is a slow fire. Gasoline vehicles catch on fire more regularly for similar reasons - readily available stored energy has straightforward release vectors. Except gasoline has a higher energy density, for better and worse.

Quote:
I like the idea of e-cars, of course, but I want 'em at least partly solar-rechargable


Theyíre already solar rechargeable, 100% so if you are so inclined and have the roof space or vacant land. Actually carrying the solar panels and associated hardware makes zero sense, because itís just extra mass you have to move. Solar arrays work better as fixed installations that produce electricity in its wonderfully fungible form that can be used for a wide range of purposes including but not limited to recharging your car.
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#2901745 - 01/12/18 11:35 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Lady Gaia]
Markay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 3021
Loc: Australia
Not sure that the concept of roof mounted solar panels is not feasible. There are a number of luxury cars that have full glass roofs. Combined with fact that thanks to Chinese output the cost of solar panels is plummeting surely it should be possible to use the vehicle roof as a solar panel.

While it may not create enough power to fully charge the battery it may offset the power to run the AC and therefore act as a range extender.

Also there a wide range of EV's in use in other parts of the world. BMW I3's are everywhere on the streets of London, particularly as EV's or PHEV's avoid the congestion tax, and are in the lowest bracket for company owned vehicles which in the UK are taxed on CO emissions.

Also on the major M roads, the M6 for example in my personal experience, every fuel and food stop has charging stations ( subsidised by the EU, another Brexit headache). So it is practical there to use the same EV you cruise around London in tax free to drive to Glasgow. But it is still going to longer than the time to eat an M&S sandwich and drink a Costa coffee to charge it.
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#2902131 - 01/14/18 09:26 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Lady Gaia]
David Emm Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 09/14/12
Posts: 1146
Loc: Solder Huffer's Gulch
Thanks for the added information, especially concerning international mineral deposits. I should have Svenned one layer deeper, no pun intended. Relief maps, surveys and tonnage reports are there for the plucking.

I'm glad your e-car experience has been so positive. I have a friend who swears by his Volt. You are correct about gas-fueled cars having the worse safety record by comparison, no question. Its also not as if any type of battery explodes as an ongoing daily threat. I simply feel restless over it because "we" make so many remarkable technological leaps ahead, its easy to feel impatient. Take this article as you will, but its a good example of my point. I'm sure the bad jokes will blossom, so be prepared. puff

Cannibattery??

Its a shame that graphene production all but demands a positive-pressure clean room. Inhaling the very fine particles of its applicable version would be like sucking down broken glass. Its a daunting issue for both makers and potential users.

Your comments about hauling solar panels feeds back into my disquiet concerning batteries, as material availability decides the final Yes or No of it. I'm mightily pleased to have USB and flash drives. How about some new tech-magic, like a 3-day battery life at high draw, or a Roland KC amp that doesn't sound like proverbial @$$? grin

Thanks for the enhancing input and welcome to KC!
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#2902152 - 01/15/18 03:19 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: David Emm]
J. Dan Offline
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Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 12178
Loc: St. Louis, MO
With regards to solar: to offer any benefit, the panels must generate more energy that what is used to move the added weight. Consider the following:
1) even in a flat surface, acceleration from zero to cruising speed has mass as one factor - more mass, more energy to accelerate
2) uphill, the energy needed to move more mass against the acceleration of gravity can be significant
3) one may think going back downhill would make up for it, except often you're breaking, which is wasting that energy. Even if the car uses dynamic braking to charge the batteries, due to inefficiency, you only recapture a small fraction
4) even coasting speed on a flat level surface, you have additional rolling friction from the extra weight.

A pretty good example of what's needed to produce more energy than what is consumed and have a net positive production of energy is a solar car. Many universities, including my own, have competitions. I was never on the solar car team but they have an article in our alumni publication every year. To compete, they need to make them extremely light with only one passenger. They need to have a very large surface area (horizontally) o capture enough energy. They aren't shaped anything like a normal car. Typically more like this:



A typical car design would not have enough surface area on top to generate enough power to offset the extra weight of the panels themselves, mounting, charging system, etc.

They are great when stationary because you don't need to overcome the extra energy to move them around.

That's not to say that it won't change in the future with lighter materials and higher efficiency photovoltaics.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2902229 - 01/15/18 08:23 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
WheelHead Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 485
Ford announcement: (Article dated Sunday Jan 14, 2018)

"Ford Motor Co. will significantly increase its planned investments in electric vehicles to $11 billion by 2022 and have 40 hybrid and fully electric vehicles in its model lineup, Chairman Bill Ford said on Sunday at the Detroit auto show.

The investment figure is sharply higher than a previously announced target of $4.5 billion by 2020, Ford executives said, and includes the costs of developing dedicated electric vehicle architectures. Ford's engineering, research and development expenses for 2016, the last full year available, were $7.3 billion, up from $6.7 billion in 2015.

Ford Chief Executive Jim Hackett told investors last October the automaker would slash $14 billion in costs over the next five years and shift capital investment away from sedans and internal combustion engines to develop more trucks and electric and hybrid cars."

WH

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