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#2901173 - 01/10/18 01:24 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: WheelHead]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Originally Posted By: WheelHead


Yeap. ...and there are fuel cell cars now. If I am not mistaken Hyundai sells one. They are electric cars obviously but batteries are not main source of propelling - have tanks similar to natural gas except they hold hydrogen. Hydrogen can be made simply by electrolysis, that everyone knows, being from water or cracking natural gas.
laugh
WH


I remember reading about fuel cell in a Honda brochure too - I forgot how long ago it was - maybe 4 years? There were only 3 stations at the time - all in the Los Angeles area. According to Wikipedia, that number has risen to over 30, most still being in California laugh

Electric car technology does have an infrastructure advantage, so I guess I shouldn't have been so surprised that it's catching on the fastest out of all the non-petroleum-based options.

Maybe hydrogen fuel cells will catch on with airplanes before cars.

The German and Italian navies are using fuel cells in submarines now. Perhaps part of a secret plan to revive the Axis


Edited by GovernorSilver (01/10/18 01:26 PM)
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#2901177 - 01/10/18 01:28 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
Stokely Offline
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I've been following a couple really in-depth threads over at arstechnica about these various techs...and fuel cell seems destined to lose. I can't repeat why, since I don't understand half the reasons those smarties there bring up, but other than one guy (that argues with the rest of them!) the consensus is that fuel cell just doesn't make sense. Toyota was all-in with it but since they've hedged bets and seem to be at least also trying all-electric.

Also fascinating are threads there talking about nuclear power when actual nuclear engineers working in plants or designing them start going back and forth smile

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#2901183 - 01/10/18 01:40 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Stokely]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Musk's argument against fuel cell tech for cars is that the infrastructure simply isn't there for producing, transporting, and storing the fuel. Well, anywhere outside of California anyway.

Kind of makes sense because while more charging stations will have to be built to encourage the spread of electric cars, just about every American city has some kind of electrical power grid.

But there are other possible uses for fuel cells other than cars:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell


Edited by GovernorSilver (01/10/18 01:42 PM)
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#2901217 - 01/10/18 03:31 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
HammondDave Online   content
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If all you doubters would just test drive a Model S with “Ludicrous Mode” your minds would change in an instant. Ever experience 0-60 in 2.9 seconds?...


Edited by HammondDave (01/10/18 03:32 PM)
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#2901221 - 01/10/18 03:41 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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I don't doubt the amazing performance... it's long-term reliability that I'm wondering about. That, and having enough charging stations wherever you go.
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#2901222 - 01/10/18 03:50 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: HammondDave]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: HammondDave
If all you doubters would just test drive a Model S with “Ludicrous Mode” your minds would change in an instant. Ever experience 0-60 in 2.9 seconds?...


As a matter of fact I have...back in my NHRA southwest division days in Arizona wink
My carbon footprint is probably huge with my current rods. grin

Even so, I think the Model S is very cool, and would love some road course track time with one.
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#2901226 - 01/10/18 04:06 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: EscapeRocks]
HammondDave Online   content
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Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
Originally Posted By: HammondDave
If all you doubters would just test drive a Model S with “Ludicrous Mode” your minds would change in an instant. Ever experience 0-60 in 2.9 seconds?...


As a matter of fact I have...back in my NHRA southwest division days in Arizona wink
My carbon footprint is probably huge with my current rods. grin

Even so, I think the Model S is very cool, and would love some road course track time with one.


... Or an hour on the 405.
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#2901228 - 01/10/18 04:09 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: HammondDave]
HammondDave Online   content
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To tell you the truth, I am now reconsidering my Model 3 purchase and may instead buy a 3 year old Model S off a lease for the same price.


Edited by HammondDave (01/10/18 04:10 PM)
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#2901244 - 01/10/18 05:37 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
waygetter Offline
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid
having enough charging stations wherever you go.

OK, but if you can get to 90% of the places you need to go, I'm sure you can come up with a plan to cover the other 10%
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#2901254 - 01/10/18 06:14 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: waygetter]
OB Dave Offline
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The vast majority of my driving is within ~200 miles of home, and there is a charging station in the town where I do all my skiing. I just need the range to get above ~500 miles before I'll be comfortable making the plunge. The roadster just announced has a claimed range of something like 650 miles. It's also well over $100k.

I think we'll get there, and Musk is moving the ball downfield faster than anyone else right now.

And for everything else, there's always rental cars. I have friends who always rent cars for long road trips simply because they don't want to put the miles on their own cars.

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#2901259 - 01/10/18 06:29 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: OB Dave]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: OB Dave
I just need the range to get above ~500 miles before I'll be comfortable making the plunge.


We could be seeing that within the next year.
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#2901270 - 01/10/18 07:14 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: HammondDave]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: HammondDave
Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
Originally Posted By: HammondDave
If all you doubters would just test drive a Model S with “Ludicrous Mode” your minds would change in an instant. Ever experience 0-60 in 2.9 seconds?...


As a matter of fact I have...back in my NHRA southwest division days in Arizona wink
My carbon footprint is probably huge with my current rods. grin

Even so, I think the Model S is very cool, and would love some road course track time with one.


... Or an hour on the 405.


grin like
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#2901272 - 01/10/18 07:29 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
U.Honey Offline
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid
I don't doubt the amazing performance... it's long-term reliability that I'm wondering about.


I'm no expert on electric cars but in the electric motor there are only two moving part that touch each other. That is, only the bearings wear out. Therefore I would think that electric motor lasts a lot longer than a piston engine.
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#2901273 - 01/10/18 07:34 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
El Lobo Online   confused
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Originally Posted By: OB Dave
I just need the range to get above ~500 miles before I'll be comfortable making the plunge.


We could be seeing that within the next year.

That's what I'm waiting for. In a compact SUV model.

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#2901301 - 01/11/18 04:12 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: U.Honey]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: U.Honey
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
I don't doubt the amazing performance... it's long-term reliability that I'm wondering about.


I'm no expert on electric cars but in the electric motor there are only two moving part that touch each other. That is, only the bearings wear out. Therefore I would think that electric motor lasts a lot longer than a piston engine.


It's not that at all, but the digital technology. As mentioned earlier in the thread... most of these vehicles offer large touch screens, voice control, autopilot, cameras instead of outside mirrors, power door handles, etc. It's high-tech, but prone to failure.

Various Tesla owners have complained of build quality issues as well. Plenty of reports online.

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#2901310 - 01/11/18 05:14 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Markay Offline
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The tech available in Tesla's is also available in many mid market and top the range vehicles. Touch screen have been widely available for 6 or more years now.

It comes down to the quality of the tech. Other manufacturers have had many years experience in quality control and have incrementally introduced each new innovation.

Tesla may have the largest touch screen but others e.g. MB have chosen to split their systems across two screens and retained knobs for some common functions.

Menu diving on a touch screen is not necessarily the safest way to change the AC temp while driving.

I read an article recently in which McLaren were discussing battery power. They made the point that battery drain to power ancillary systems such as steering, cooling or heating, lights and wipers can be more than 50%.

Until there is a breakthrough in battery technology plug-in hybrids remain the most practical and clean city and country driving solution without range anxiety or the need spend several hours recharging half way through a journey. Assuming there is a charging station available near the point where the battery is nearly flat.
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#2901313 - 01/11/18 05:25 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Markay]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markay
It comes down to the quality of the tech.


Absolutely.

Having a huge screen is nice, but also having a few supplementary buttons or switches would be reassuring.




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#2901321 - 01/11/18 05:36 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Markay Offline
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Chinese innovation. One day we will not be laughing, a little way to go yet though.
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#2901323 - 01/11/18 05:39 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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I do like the smaller touch screen in the steering wheel. Much safer than reaching over to a center console.
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#2901332 - 01/11/18 06:32 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
stillearning Offline
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I’ve been looking at Tesla, but am going to wait on going electric. I do think the electric motor is by far more sensible than the internal combustion engine. If we had been electric all along, and the the ICE was being newly promoted, the concept would be widely ridiculed. Pumping stations dispensing highly flammable, even explosive liquids on every corner in residential areas, and then driving around, sitting on top of that very liquid in the underbelly of a car? Unthinkable!

The biggest issue, I’d imagine, if the public were to change over en masse, would be the electric utilities inability to meet the increased demand. Generation, distribution, everything related would need addressing. Slowly, over time, quite feasible, I’d wager.


Edited by stillearning (01/11/18 06:36 AM)
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#2901340 - 01/11/18 07:29 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: stillearning]
Stokely Offline
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Actually the main reason I personally will hold off is that I don't want to hit bugs and other early adopter issues, and want to see what support is like. I do the same with keyboards, computers and just about everything else for that matter! Cars especially, since a bug could be catastrophic. For a given model, I'd probably wait a few years. I'd be perfectly ok with the ones that have been around that long if they met my price and other needs (prius etc), but Tesla, not yet.

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#2901351 - 01/11/18 07:41 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Problem is, many of the inexpensive EV cars are quite small with a short driving range. frown
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#2901360 - 01/11/18 08:05 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Adan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Problem is, many of the inexpensive EV cars are quite small with a short driving range. frown



It's a problem if you need to haul a B3/122. But a Mojo/SS3/Sub will do the job just fine.
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#2901363 - 01/11/18 08:09 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Probably not this little beauty though.


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#2901364 - 01/11/18 08:11 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Adan]
stillearning Offline
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Originally Posted By: Adan

It's a problem if you need to haul a B3/122. But a Mojo/SS3/Sub will do the job just fine.

Tesla is making an electric semi for that, now.
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#2901381 - 01/11/18 08:42 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: stillearning]
harmonizer Offline
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Before touch screens, cars had controls which minimized how much a driver needed to move their eyes away from the road, in order to use them. Maybe you needed to glance quickly to locate the Defrost button/control on your dashboard, but it was only a quick glance.

My wife's 2005 Prius requires one to do at least one level of menu diving on the touch screen, in order to turn on the defroster for the front windshield. But a front window defroster is a critical safety feature. Some other cars might even have worse examples of dependency on touch screen functions, and I think this is a terrible trend.

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#2901386 - 01/11/18 08:51 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Did someone say "menu diving?"


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#2901399 - 01/11/18 09:22 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
WheelHead Offline
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Probably not this little beauty though.






Thats the iMiev I believe. It is a small, cute car. Rear wheel drive and it is said that the interior is 'chintzy' but this is the cheapest EV other than the Smart EV (that you have to lease the battery)

Smart, made by Mercedes, no long ships the gasoline car to the US (only EV for 2018) as it was a terrible seller excepting the first year it was out in US 2008 - they sold over 30,000 I think- with a lot of bad publicity US buyers were scared away. After 2008, glut of sales, the industry and the paid, publication auto-writer-shills, imo, went after the car so it did not 'take off' like the old air cooled Beetle that it has similarities to. It's actually a very quality car - ask the owners. They have shipped toward 2 million gas models worldwide. US never got the diesel version said to get up towards 60-70mpg. Canada did. A lot of diesel versions outside the US have 250,000 miles and up. Probably good the diesel was not in the US. It was slower and the car would have been driven or honked off the road by the stereotypical, young-aggressive US driver in a pick-up. Lol!

WH

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#2901417 - 01/11/18 10:34 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: WheelHead]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Took another look at the Honda website - to confuse matters a bit they have introduced a "Plug-In Hybrid" model. I guess the difference is that you can't plug in regular hybrids, and the gas engine only takes over when you run out of battery... or something.

Honda still hasn't given up on fuel cell. I'm guessing after a couple years, they'll iron on the kinks in the Clarity models, assuming they don't decide to just kill that line and reuse its best features in the Accord and other models.

https://blog.caranddriver.com/three-shad...clarity-models/
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#2901441 - 01/11/18 12:58 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Joe Muscara Offline
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As someone who did a bit of work with alternative fuels in college (though it's been a while), I'm qualified to comment on some things. wink

Originally Posted By: WheelHead
Engines, supposedly, run very clean with natural gas and emissions are greatly reduced. Valve seats have to be hardened as natural gas engines can burn out valve seats. Range is not as much as gasoline.
Yes, they do run much cleaner. A NGV will look like it's brand new when you disassemble it, compared to a gasoline engine that will be filled with deposits. This is good and bad. The good is obvious, the bad is that the deposits tend to lubricate and protect the engine components. This is pretty easily fixable with good maintenance of NGVs and some minor changes like valve seats as mentioned. There are tons of fleet vehicles running NGVs out there and they do well.

Of course, fleet vehicles mostly run around town, and that's okay with the limited range of NG as a fuel. It's funny, you can run NG like it has a higher octane and get more power out of it, but because of the lower energy content, you don't get the range for a similar quantity/volume of fuel.

Originally Posted By: Synthoid
it's long-term reliability that I'm wondering about.
I'm not as concerned about that as far as what other people posted, but when I read this article last fall, it struck home having seen other automobile manufacturers not get this either when I was engineering.

https://mondaynote.com/teslas-new-car-smell-315c72c955d3

Quote:
My first serious doubts about Tesla didn’t stem from missed schedules, I’ve been guilty of too many of these, they’re part of tech life. What seriously worried me was a July 2016 visit to Tesla’s manufacturing plant in Fremont, California. In taking delivery of my wife’s Model S, we were treated to a group tour of the site. Everyone marveled at the robot porn, at the activity on the assembly line, at the endless stores of spare parts piled to the ceiling.

Everyone but yours truly. […]

As I watched Tesla’s messy, hiccuping line, with workers dashing in to fix faulty parts in place, my mind travelled back to the Honda plant I had visited years ago in Marysville, Ohio. Clean, calm, everything moved smoothly. I was so shocked by the contrast that I imprudently voiced my concern. That didn’t go over well with my fellow Tesla owners. I was a killjoy, I was calling their choice into question.
I have no issues with Musk or Tesla and I sincerely wish him/them well, but I highly suspect his current ability to run a modern, lean, mass-production facility. He simply has no experience with it. If he hasn't already, he should higher some people who have LOTS of experience with this.
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