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#2901052 - 01/10/18 06:11 AM OT: Too Many Electric Cars?
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9931
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
I've often wondered what people in the city do to charge their Tesla. Just run an extension cord out the window? I don't think so.

Even though there are more Supercharger stations being built, I'm not ready for an all-electric car just yet. Here in SE Pennsylvania, we don't see much of that newfangled technology.

Then I read an online report this morning about "Charge rage," which is occurring in parking lots of corporations who offer on-site EV charging. Unfortunately demand is exceeding supply and employees are fighting over the limited chargers... even to the extent of unplugging another's charger for their own car.

I'm curious what anyone here could share regarding charging experiences and issues. idk

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#2901053 - 01/10/18 06:15 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
HammondDave Offline
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Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 6912
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
I have my deposit down on a Model 3. With a 320 mile range, I don't think I will have that problem.
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#2901058 - 01/10/18 06:44 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: HammondDave]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 3313
Loc: eastern North Carolina
I've never used someone else's charger in the close to 3 years of owning my Volt. The charger is normally mounted on the wall of the garage close enough for the cable to reach. However, I can remove it and carry it in the car for trips, and I have a 100' 12 gauge extension cord.
However, the Volt is hybrid - runs on battery until mostly depleted, then turns on the gasoline engine which generates electricity for the drive motor.

If I lived in an apartment in the city, I would be reluctant to leaving the vehicle out in public areas, although it will set off the alarm (horn beeps) if the cable is disconnected while the doors are locked.

I am reading some in my field (computers) that there are security issues with the public charging points - not in the battery charging, but in the money charging - inadequate security in the methods used to charge to the customer's account, resulting in a fairly easy way to clone someone else's account.

As far as company provided charging - I'd think the company should create some form of written policy on the "pecking order" or else add enough chargers for the need.

I only have a 36 to 42 mile electric range (depending largely on temperature - and use of heating or A/C knocks that down), but works very well for my service calls, most of whom are in the local area. I use more gas once a year in preparing for the Vehicle Emission test so the sensors are actuated and will pass than most of the rest of the year.
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#2901059 - 01/10/18 06:45 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: HammondDave]
Fusker Offline
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Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1382
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Went to my local Target yesterday and was surprised to find quite the Tesla charging row available. It was maybe one third full. There was an apartment complex nearby, so may have been for them more than Target. It got me to thinking now that I'm in more of a more hipster city, I might explore this option.
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#2901061 - 01/10/18 06:48 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: HammondDave]
Markay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2784
Loc: Australia
Well we could start a new thread on Tesla Model 3 shipping date keeps slipping.

But back to the OP.

I guess people prefer to charge them at work as they may not be paying for the electricity, but here one of our energy utilities is offering a $1 a day deal to charge your car at home. So for most charging at home overnight is probably the lowest cost option.
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#2901062 - 01/10/18 06:49 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Fusker]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5570
Loc: Washington DC
I regularly drive up to Philly and last time around, I noticed charging stations at the Maryland House rest stop, off I-95.
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#2901064 - 01/10/18 07:01 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
Redknife Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/14/14
Posts: 167
Loc: Lewisville, NC
We’ve had a Chevy bolt for 3 months (EV, 200+ mile range). 120v charging takes way too long for regular use. We have a level 2 charger (240v 30 amp) installed on an outside wall of the house. In a rural location, my wife drives during the day and plugs in at night without range worries. She’s at about 6-7000 miles for 3 months so it has been used a fair amount. There aren’t a ton of fast charging (level 3) stations in NC so we use the gas vehicle for longer trips. Don’t have any tales of woe.
ETA: I park at a 900 hospital parking lot which has just installed 4 level 2 chargers. There is only occasionally one car charging out of 4 spots . I think my area is not populated with many plugins thus we are not in the fighting stage yet.


Edited by Redknife (01/10/18 07:06 AM)
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#2901065 - 01/10/18 07:02 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9931
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
And now a Chinese competitor enters the EV arena with this rather high-tech offering:






Presented by a couple of Arnold Schwarzenegger's relatives. laugh

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#2901071 - 01/10/18 07:28 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
The Real MC Offline
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Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 4777
Loc: Secluded Tranquil NY Wine Coun...
A year ago a new Dunkin Donuts was built, and they installed a row of Tesla chargers. This is right down the hill from my company R&D facility, where high earning PhDs have the moola to buy a Tesla. Haven't looked to see if they are being utilized, but I doubt anybody is driving electric vehicles in the arctic winter weather we are having now.

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#2901072 - 01/10/18 07:28 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
waygetter Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 388
Loc: Sausalito, CA
To OPs ques: Too many electric cars? No, there are not enough electric cars. More electric, more self driving, more technology, more more more.

Better, safer, cheaper.

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#2901073 - 01/10/18 07:28 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
WheelHead Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 437
Originally Posted By: Synthoid


Even though there are more Supercharger stations being built, I'm not ready for an all-electric car just yet. Here in SE Pennsylvania, we don't see much of that newfangled technology.


I've read that the DC fast charger stations can be $100,000 so there are more Level 2s.
There is also debate that the fast chargers damage or shorten the battery life. Comparing to small battery, appliance charging. I have a '15 minute lithium charger' I use for a device. When I fast charge the small batteries, they last about half as long as when I slow charge them (the fast charge goes red when the battery is done). I am sure the auto batteries are not quite like this but I think I would hesitate to get fast charges DC unless I was stuck out in the road (80 percent full in like 20-30 minutes) UNLESS I leased the car then "who cares" (though not a nice attitude) if the batteries are not 100 percent when the car is turned in.

Which begs the question: do most users of EVs lease or buy? It would seem leasing is safer because battery technology may improve in 3 years.

I ran into a licensed electrician in my travels fairly recently in the Philly-South Jersey area and asked him how many calls does he get to install electric vehicle charging stations in context of conversation at his work vehicle. He said he gets calls with questions but very little and insignificant amounts of installs though he told me about a couple he did recently.

........and how about the EV $7500 tax credit? I Googled it briefly and could not find clearly if it is still available in 2018.

WH

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#2901076 - 01/10/18 07:38 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: WheelHead]
Adan Offline
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Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 2313
Loc: San Francisco
That's funny, because I've been hearing about oil rage. Countries actually invading each other to control sources of oil. Whodathunk that would happen?

If ecars are the future, infrastructure has to catch up with demand. There's a lot of work to do. It's a vast changeover from one infrastructure system to another (or more accurately, they will exist in parallel).

I think a lot of those charge rage incidents aren't even between people who need the juice, they're just being petty. In general, if you have an ecar, you don't plan your trips dependent on getting charged at a public station. That's just a backup most of the time.

I've got an egolf and an electric Zero motorcycle, and we have a deposit on an unbuilt Tesla. It's a great way to go but we also have a gas car because at this point it's still difficult to count on charging.
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#2901081 - 01/10/18 07:43 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: WheelHead]
burningbusch Offline
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Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 7751
Loc: Ghost Planet
I had a deposit down on a Model 3 but decided against it. The delivery date became too much of a moving target and when I thought about my needs, a Model 3 would be ancillary transportation. I still needed a small SUV to get to the trailhead, go over the pass in the winter and, on occasion, haul a Rhodes, Wurly or similar. So I got an Outback.

Electrics are great. In WA state, electricity is cheap and 80% hydro generated. Teslas, and other electrics, abound here. But I'll catch the next wave when there are more choices.

Busch.

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#2901085 - 01/10/18 07:51 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: burningbusch]
burningbusch Offline
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Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 7751
Loc: Ghost Planet
I wonder how many people who plugin at work or at the mall, REALLY need charging? If I had an electric, I'd just plug it in every night (or most nights) knowing I'd have plenty of charge for the next day. I understand the need when taking longer trips, but it seems that when using one around town you'd easily get by charging at home.

Busch.

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#2901086 - 01/10/18 07:54 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: burningbusch]
WheelHead Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 437
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
I wonder how many people who plugin at work or at the mall, REALLY need charging? If I had an electric, I'd just plug it in every night (or most nights) knowing I'd have plenty of charge for the next day. I understand the need when taking longer trips, but it seems that when using one around town you'd easily get by charging at home.

Busch.


I would think if it is 'free electricity' and the car can take the charge being depleted enough they are going to go for it to cut down the electric bill for the car. If the station is a vending machine or they become vending machines - they will charge at home unless they need it, IMO.

WH

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#2901089 - 01/10/18 08:00 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: waygetter]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9931
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted By: waygetter
there are not enough electric cars. More electric, more self driving, more technology, more more more.

Better, safer, cheaper.


Technology is great, but a car that is totally electric, with touch screens, voice commands, self-driving, and cameras to replace outside mirrors? Hmmmm.

Better? Maybe. Safer? That remains to be seen.

Cheaper? Not the initial investment. It takes time to realize any savings. Plus, those delightful tax incentives may be going away. And as I stated above, that fancy technology could malfunction, leaving the EV owner stranded... with a huge repair bill.

Just look online for info about Tesla build quality issues. razz
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#2901092 - 01/10/18 08:05 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Fusker Offline
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Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1382
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Hold on, is it being suggested that someone that dropped $60k (round numbers) on a car needs to weasel out a $20 monthly savings on their home electric bill? Something is askew!
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#2901099 - 01/10/18 08:25 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Fusker]
WheelHead Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 437
Originally Posted By: Fusker
Hold on, is it being suggested that someone that dropped $60k (round numbers) on a car needs to weasel out a $20 monthly savings on their home electric bill? Something is askew!


The Chevy Bolt (not Volt) voted 'car of the year' in some quarters I believe is $37K. Nissan Leafs are fairly inexpensive around $30K. You can get a used electric Smart Car for $8K on eBay or less (though I think there is a battery lease). Mitsubishi iMiev is $22K. Having bucks does not mean a person is not frugal to save money on electricity. Particularly the lady of the house, imo

WH

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#2901100 - 01/10/18 08:25 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: WheelHead]
Fusker Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1382
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Good point, I was using a Tesla lens
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#2901102 - 01/10/18 08:28 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5570
Loc: Washington DC
Originally Posted By: Synthoid

Technology is great, but a car that is totally electric, with touch screens, voice commands, self-driving, and cameras to replace outside mirrors? Hmmmm.


I definitely don't want all mirrors omitted in favor of cameras, nor touch screens replacing all physical buttons and knobs.

I recently rented a Ford Fusion. I liked the rear camera that activates when the car is put into reverse, super quiet hybrid engine, and fuel economy. I didn't like the push-button control of the parking brake, and the startup process - not very intuitive - and the big Start button and the dial to select P-R-D-etc. were not close to each other. If you're driving out in, say West Virginia or desert country, and you forgot to bring spare batteries, you could be in trouble because the car depends on that electronic remote to open/close the doors.

The pickup truck that I rented a couple of years ago, while also very electronic, was more intuitive - stick the key fob in a certain place and it starts.
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#2901105 - 01/10/18 08:43 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
WheelHead Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 437
Easier to get ripped off in service for electric vehicles and hybrids. Take Prius: a couple of cells could go bad and it will show a digital error. The owner (who may remove the 85lb battery pack) exchanges it for a 'rebuilt' one and ships the exchange. Actually the 'rebuild' would be only replacing the bad cells. May be a couple of bad cells that are small enough to fit in your hand. They sell cells on eBay for like 40 bucks apiece and up or the rebuilder strips a used battery pack he has laying around for a couple of good cells. The customer may be paying $1200 or more for the swap and seems cheap but only a couple cells were changed on a bench that might take an hour or less, tested with an app then shipped back or this is shipped as rebuilt and rebuilder gets customer's old battery pack. The rebuilt is still used but the battery pack does not error now. Each cell has to have a certain voltage. When a cell or two drop voltage the owner gets a digital error on the dashboard. To be fair though an aftermarket battery pack new can be bought for around 1500 (4 to $5K for original) that has 14 round battery units instead of 28 rectangle ones . 36 new vs 3 month rebuild warranty.

WH

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#2901106 - 01/10/18 08:45 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
pizzafilms Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 100
Too many electric cars? Not enough, I say.

When I got my Tesla 2 years ago I had an electrician put in a 220 outlet in my garage for about $250. I plug in every night and the car's timer charges it at 1am when rates and demand are the lowest. Don't even notice the extra $30 or so on my electric bill.

The handful of times I've taken longer drives, using a supercharger was painlessly simple.

Never going back.

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#2901110 - 01/10/18 09:09 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: pizzafilms]
SteinwayB Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/06/13
Posts: 93
Behringer is coming out with an electric car called the model S.

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#2901113 - 01/10/18 09:16 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: pizzafilms]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9931
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted By: pizzafilms
Too many electric cars? Not enough, I say.


Looking at the big picture right now, there aren't that many. But with all the new EV's being introduced, we're going to need a lot more charging stations by 2020.

There was a report a few months ago about people with gasoline cars parking in or blocking access to Tesla superchargers. facepalm

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#2901138 - 01/10/18 10:58 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
Stokely Offline
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Registered: 12/15/12
Posts: 1665
Loc: Florida
I'll definitely consider one for my next car. Family vacations aside (for which we could rent a car if we needed the range/side), I really don't drive that much on a given day. I don't like the idea of multiple proprietary charging networks though, and the infrastructure in general needs to be improved.

Self-driving can't get here quick enough. All you have to do is glance around at a stop light at all the idiots texting...whatever advantage people have over robot drivers they surrender by cramming their face into their phone.

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#2901144 - 01/10/18 11:25 AM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: Synthoid]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5570
Loc: Washington DC
Originally Posted By: Synthoid

Looking at the big picture right now, there aren't that many. But with all the new EV's being introduced, we're going to need a lot more charging stations by 2020.


Assuming some other technology like hydrogen fuel cells, biofuel, etc. doesn't take off instead.

Whatever technological solutions emerge, they won't solve all your problems, that's for sure - like drivers who take up more than one parking space, play w/ mobile devices while driving, and that sort of thing.


Edited by GovernorSilver (01/10/18 11:33 AM)
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#2901154 - 01/10/18 12:16 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
harmonizer Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 687
Loc: NJ, USA
It's software. All software is defective, but if you use a particular piece of software in a common way, similar to how almost everyone uses it, it starts to seem that it is not defective. But it's still defective.

All computing platforms are hackable, and new cars are becoming more hackable with their increasing connectivity, not less so. So if we run software to enable a self-driving car, we will be running this defective but life-critical software on a hackable platform.

Assisting driving safety via front-end collision warning and lane-deviation warning is smart. And using cruise control in a car can relieve fatigue, so that's good too. Planes have autopilot but there are situations where the autopilot is programmed to disengage, and there is always supposed to be a pilot in the cockpit.

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#2901162 - 01/10/18 12:42 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
WheelHead Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 437
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver


Assuming some other technology like hydrogen fuel cells, biofuel, etc. doesn't take off instead.

Whatever technological solutions emerge, they won't solve all your problems, that's for sure - like drivers who take up more than one parking space, play w/ mobile devices while driving, and that sort of thing.


Some thought natural gas would be popular. Honda did have (and may still) a version that used natural gas. The owner would have a compressor installed in the garage. (natural gas compresses under very high pressure not like much lower pressure propane where a sheet-metal welded tank can suffice - natural gas 'tanks' are more like scuba or acetylene tanks). Engines, supposedly, run very clean with natural gas and emissions are greatly reduced. Valve seats have to be hardened as natural gas engines can burn out valve seats. Range is not as much as gasoline. It is filled in the garage with a 'real-time' pump by pump consumer compressor or a pro setup where a gas station fill would have multi tanks in cascade and can fill in minutes. 2012, I believe, was the last year for the natural gas Honda Civic. Just looked: there is a 2009 on eBay now

WH

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#2901166 - 01/10/18 12:59 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: WheelHead]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5570
Loc: Washington DC
Originally Posted By: WheelHead
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver


Assuming some other technology like hydrogen fuel cells, biofuel, etc. doesn't take off instead.

Whatever technological solutions emerge, they won't solve all your problems, that's for sure - like drivers who take up more than one parking space, play w/ mobile devices while driving, and that sort of thing.


Some thought natural gas would be popular. Honda did have (and may still) a version that used natural gas. The owner would have a compressor installed in the garage. (natural gas compresses under very high pressure not like much lower pressure propane where a sheet-metal welded tank can suffice - natural gas 'tanks' are more like scuba or acetylene tanks). Engines, supposedly, run very clean with natural gas and emissions are greatly reduced. Valve seats have to be hardened as natural gas engines can burn out valve seats. Range is not as much as gasoline. It is filled in the garage with a 'real-time' pump by pump consumer compressor or a pro setup where a gas station fill would have multi tanks in cascade and can fill in minutes. 2012, I believe, was the last year for the natural gas Honda Civic. Just looked: there is a 2009 on eBay now

WH


Yeah, I remember the natural gas bandwagon.

Also the biofuel one. Brazil is well known as a major producer, making it from sugar cane. Not quite a dead end yet, as there still seems to be a lot of ongoing research.

Electric seems to be catching on faster than I thought it would. But there's still some competition for it, besides good ol' petroleum.


Edited by GovernorSilver (01/10/18 01:08 PM)
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#2901168 - 01/10/18 01:06 PM Re: OT: Too Many Electric Cars? [Re: GovernorSilver]
WheelHead Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 437
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver


Yeah, I remember the natural gas bandwagon.

Also the biofuel one. I think they're still trying to raise corn in places like Montana in hopes of turning all that into biofuel. Algae was supposed to be better than corn, but the continuing low price of petroleum has killed the demand, at least for now.

Electric seems to be catching on faster than I thought it would. But there's still some competition for it, besides good ol' petroleum.


Yeap. ...and there are fuel cell cars now. If I am not mistaken Hyundai sells one. They are electric cars obviously but batteries are not main source of propelling - have tanks similar to natural gas except they hold hydrogen. Hydrogen can be made simply by electrolysis, that everyone knows, being from water or cracking natural gas.

WH

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