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#2900910 - 01/09/18 01:46 PM Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels
timwat Online   content
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#2900924 - 01/09/18 02:30 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: timwat]
davedoerfler Offline
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my opinion of Jacob just went up exponentially.

As far as the back line company Wired used for the video. facepalm

I thought the sound (not the concept) during the HH segment was terrible.
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#2900951 - 01/09/18 04:29 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: davedoerfler]
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Love this freak of nature.
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#2900958 - 01/09/18 05:08 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Dreamchilde]
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I'm sorry; I can't get past the mic'ed KC amp. roll

(okay, I can, and that was pretty cool... although I don't think I saw/heard him explain harmony to Herbie. Maybe I missed it. wink
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#2900961 - 01/09/18 05:13 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Sven Golly]
davedoerfler Offline
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he didn't explain anything to Herbie, best I can tell. It was a discussion.
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#2900962 - 01/09/18 05:19 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: davedoerfler]
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And while that might 'violate' the premise given to Collier, I thought the HH segment was entirely appropriate, warm and open.

I can't imagine Collier 'explaining' anything about harmony to HH, anyway.
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#2900966 - 01/09/18 05:27 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: timwat]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: timwat
And while that might 'violate' the premise given to Collier, I thought the HH segment was entirely appropriate, warm and open.

I can't imagine Collier 'explaining' anything about harmony to HH, anyway.


My point... that whole series involves people explaining their topic of expertise at 5 different levels.

Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the hell out of it (although I got more out of level 4 where he mentioned the minor plagal cadence, personally wink ).

And again... a mic on a KC amp! freak wink
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#2900967 - 01/09/18 05:27 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Sven Golly]
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The title of this thread should be more like "Jacob Collier explains his understanding of harmony to four different levels and misses the lesson of effective harmonic function by Herbie Hancock."

Lots of levels to discuss with this one.
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#2900968 - 01/09/18 05:29 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Sven Golly]
timwat Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
Originally Posted By: timwat
And while that might 'violate' the premise given to Collier, I thought the HH segment was entirely appropriate, warm and open.

I can't imagine Collier 'explaining' anything about harmony to HH, anyway.


My point... that whole series involves people explaining their topic of expertise at 5 different levels.

Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the hell out of it (although I got more out of level 4 where he mentioned the minor plagal cadence, personally wink ).

And again... a mic on a KC amp! freak wink


Point taken.

And yes, the KC amp. Those things truly are ubiquitous.
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#2900969 - 01/09/18 05:30 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Keybass]
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Originally Posted By: Keybass
The title of this thread should be more like "Jacob Collier explains his understanding of harmony to four different levels and misses the lesson of effective harmonic function by Herbie Hancock."

Lots of levels to discuss with this one.



I don't think the forum software allows that long of a title...even if I had thought of it.
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#2900971 - 01/09/18 05:35 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: timwat]
Keybass Offline
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Originally Posted By: timwat
Originally Posted By: Keybass
The title of this thread should be more like "Jacob Collier explains his understanding of harmony to four different levels and misses the lesson of effective harmonic function by Herbie Hancock."

Lots of levels to discuss with this one.


I don't think the forum software allows that long of a title...even if I had thought of it.


smile

I'm thankful you started the thread.

The Afro/Euro angle could be an exciting avenue to explore as would be the ego/servant approach. Collier was enthusiastic and Herbie was gracious. It's a cool concept but the real value would have been a lesson in harmony by Herbie Hancock with your host Jacob Collier.
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#2900979 - 01/09/18 06:01 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Keybass]
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Just means Jacob is Level 5 too, not Level 6 (which probably doesn't exist unless you're Nigel Tufnel, right?) He and Herbie are peers. Wired, being nowhere near Level 5, can't tell and therefore went for the clickbaity title.
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#2900986 - 01/09/18 06:20 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: MAJUSCULE]
Keybass Offline
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Originally Posted By: MAJUSCULE
Just means Jacob is Level 5 too, not Level 6 (which probably doesn't exist unless you're Nigel Tufnel, right?) He and Herbie are peers. Wired, being nowhere near Level 5, can't tell and therefore went for the clickbaity title.


Please understand that I mean no disrespect regarding your post, but I couldn't disagree more. How in the world are they peers? By what standard does one apply to come to that conclusion?

Collier is very talented but where is his body of work? Will jazz musicians be studying him 100 years from now? The answer is, who knows?, maybe. Well until that answer is the same as it would be if the question was about Herbie then IMHO they are not peers by any stretch of the imagination.



Edited by Keybass (01/09/18 06:22 PM)
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#2900990 - 01/09/18 07:00 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Keybass]
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Herbie talked about his inspiration he got from Miles. Brought me back to Miles' 1964 live recording My Funny Valentine + Four & More. Herbie is level 10 on this.
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#2901035 - 01/10/18 03:24 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: JazzPiano88]
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I love the idea that the thing that changed Herbie's whole conception is a misheard word from Miles.


Edited by woodtus (01/10/18 07:39 AM)

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#2901036 - 01/10/18 03:24 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: JazzPiano88]
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While the overtone series and combination tones, also known as Tartini tones, are measurable facts of music.
I had never known there was such a thing- in terms of an acoustical phenomenon - as undertones. Unless of course Jacob is referring to combination tones!

Does anyone know about undertones; is this arbitrary poetic license or a fact of acoustics?

Note:
The KC amp did not disturb me at all. Such bias... come on, we know it is far from our first choice, but it sounded fine in this context.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (01/10/18 03:25 AM)
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#2901070 - 01/10/18 07:25 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
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I've heard Collier talk about the idea of "negative harmony before," but not undertones. It seems to be just a different term for intervals and harmony moving in the opposite direction?

Just reading about it now, some instruments can produce acoustical undertones when overblown or bowed. Some theoreticians believe that sympathetic resonance produced by undertone notes played affects the timbre of a root note more than the same effect caused by overtones. Another theoretician believes the resonant bodies of instruments can sometimes vibrate at fractions of the fundamental tone, creating audible undertones.

The brown drawbars on a tonewheel organ are designed to produce audible subharmonics of the fundamental tone.

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#2901115 - 01/10/18 09:23 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee

The KC amp did not disturb me at all. Such bias... come on, we know it is far from our first choice, but it sounded fine in this context.


I thought it sounded OK when Jacob was playing solo. When both keyboards were playing together I thought it was horrible. It could not have been the players in this case.
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#2901128 - 01/10/18 10:28 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: davedoerfler]
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Dave: Possibly one or the pair of them had partaken of a pear just before discussion. What say you?

I had not listened to the last few minutes when they did Amazing Grace.
I still do not see the KC amp as a big problem.
The problem, if there was one, was the difficulty in playing spontaneously with one another. That is one of Herbie's gifts, his receptivity to the moment. I noticed at one point in Amazing Grace. he resorted to pure octaves.. always a good way to avoid harmonic collisions.

Herbie is my hero ( as I am sure many here feel similarly ) and I am watching him as he is being kind of gently "taught" by a youngster. I am observing ( possibly superimposing my own reactions to Jacob.. as if I were Herbie being spoken to by a boy prodigy ) Herbie's energy ( receptivity and diplomacy ) as he listens respectfully to Jacob. THAT was my main focus on this exchange.. not as much the music theory.
But I did check out one of Herbie's mentors, he mentioned; the very gifted Chicago pianist Chris Anderson.
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#2901147 - 01/10/18 11:51 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
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I kind of don't get the point. You can analyze the shit out of anything I guess, maybe its just me. Part of what he is talking about has to become instinct or is built in. People kind of have it or they don't. Some people need it develop it further and lessons and life experiences will teach that. I remember in 1995 reading that when Herbie was interviewed in keyboard magazine.


Edited by Outkaster (01/10/18 11:56 AM)
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#2901152 - 01/10/18 12:12 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Outkaster]
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A lot of this went over my head, but as usual i appreciate Jacobs emphasis on the feeling aspect of these abstract concepts, and coming up with analogies like a tree above the ground and below.

I didn’t understand though his use of an EP for demonstration purposes. The notes blend together beautifully, but hearing distinct harmonies is lost compared to playing the same thing with an AP. At least he used an AP at the end with HH. It was also curious they used the RED keyboards and blacked out the logo. And why mic the KC at all, it was just used for their monitors, feeds from the keys themselves could be used for recording.

Did any of you get something useful from the level 4 and 5 segments? Hard to imagine anyone did. More than anything this seemed like an exercise in demonstrating that there are levels most of us mere mortals wouldn’t begin to comprehend.
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#2901161 - 01/10/18 12:41 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Randelph]
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Originally Posted By: Randelph
A lot of this went over my head, but as usual i appreciate Jacobs emphasis on the feeling aspect of these abstract concepts, and coming up with analogies like a tree above the ground and below.

I didn’t understand though his use of an EP for demonstration purposes. The notes blend together beautifully, but hearing distinct harmonies is lost compared to playing the same thing with an AP. At least he used an AP at the end with HH. It was also curious they used the RED keyboards and blacked out the logo. And why mic the KC at all, it was just used for their monitors, feeds from the keys themselves could be used for recording.


I am so pleased you said that comment about Acoustic piano versus EP. I recall my music teacher saying the way to hear harmony when writing, is with an acoustic piano... just as you said, Thank you for that. like

Video was more philosophical than actually useful to someone wishing to learn music.
To understand harmony you have to write it daily. And Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony is a great foundation.

Divorcing harmony from melody or contrapuntal, is limited in its utility.

A melodic line, implies harmonies... and too often harmony explorations contradict the melodic implied harmonies, to such an extent, that it leaves me cold.

Composition is the real deal. Let's encourage students to write each part ( SATB soprano alto etc ) THAT is the real deal. Voices, not over simplified chords.

I did not see the real point of this video.. I just enjoyed Herbie's humanity here.
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#2901238 - 01/10/18 04:54 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee

Composition is the real deal. Let's encourage students to write each part ( SATB soprano alto etc ) THAT is the real deal. Voices, not over simplified chords.


Maybe you would enjoy watching Jacob creating a complete arrangement in real time..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ulJmW6IkiM

Or his most recent harmU's ... some harmonic genius in here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN1QQI-npbc

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#2901271 - 01/10/18 07:17 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: woodtus]
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Maybe I didn't read closely enough, but it seems to me that several posters have come close to--but not reached--the point that the voice of the instrument can govern what will and will not work harmonically.

If you have a pure sine wave like a flute (not quite a perfect sine, but close enough), you can use notes that would not work with a more complex waveform, such as what Jacob Collier was using. Herbie Hancock chose a more conservative wave structure (EP), and the notes he played always worked. Collier's choices didn't always work (for me) because the overtones built into each note (lots of harmonics, getting up into sevenths and stuff), while they might work as a single note, produced excessive dissonance when played in combinations in chords.

I can hang with dissonance to a point, but only to a point. Beyond that, a complex chord begins to sound like someone bashing pans together. Other peoples' tolerance for dissonance will be greater or lesser, but at a minimum you'll need to take into account your audience.

Rule of thumb: The more complex your chords, the simpler your tone needs to be. Oddly enough, I figured that out playing bass.

I kept getting the distinct impression that Jacob Collier was trying to show off chords with augmented fratzenjammers and diminished Sus-es and 7ths, 11ths, and sub-99ths...I think his chord choices would have been better served by a simpler (tonally) voice.

Perhaps in the next video, Herbie could give him pointers on voices, since he's obviously got it knocked.

That said, I liked the video.

Grey
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#2901319 - 01/11/18 05:35 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: GRollins]
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That's how I feel Grey. Just because you can do something doesn't always mean you need to or should. I could have practiced 4 or 5 scales in the time that it took to watch that and come out a better player.
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#2901326 - 01/11/18 05:42 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: GRollins]
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Jacob Collier is a massive talent. I found this video about him doing a week long guest residency at MIT (below). Around 7 minutes in, someone explains how his arrangement of "Hideaway" (being rehearsed by the choir in this video) has rhythmic groups of 3, 5 in the arrangement played against a slow pulse of 4 beats to the measure.

In my opinion, based on watching and listening to various videos, this guy will do great things. I hear what I perceive as stodgy, some people saying "who is this young squirt ? What has he done to merit sitting next to Herbie ?". I'd say that Herbie has listened to Jacob's work. I'd say that Herbie knows this is someone who's doing, and will do, great things.

As I understand it, both of Jacob's parents are musicians in London - either symphony players or professors - or both. Rather than beginning his music study at age 3 like Keith Jarrett - I suspect he was banging on a piano while a toddler in diapers. Jacob has musical skill and insights way beyond his years on this planet.

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#2901331 - 01/11/18 06:28 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: GRollins]
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
I can hang with dissonance to a point, but only to a point. Beyond that, a complex chord begins to sound like someone bashing pans together. Other peoples' tolerance for dissonance will be greater or lesser, but at a minimum you'll need to take into account your audience.


thu
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#2901333 - 01/11/18 06:41 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Strays Dave]
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Originally Posted By: Strays Dave

Jacob Collier is a massive talent. I found this video about him doing a week long guest residency at MIT (below). Around 7 minutes in, someone explains how his arrangement of "Hideaway" (being rehearsed by the choir in this video) has rhythmic groups of 3, 5 in the arrangement played against a slow pulse of 4 beats to the measure.

In my opinion, based on watching and listening to various videos, this guy will do great things. I hear what I perceive as stodgy, some people saying "who is this young squirt ? What has he done to merit sitting next to Herbie ?". I'd say that Herbie has listened to Jacob's work. I'd say that Herbie knows this is someone who's doing, and will do, great things.

As I understand it, both of Jacob's parents are musicians in London - either symphony players or professors - or both. Rather than beginning his music study at age 3 like Keith Jarrett - I suspect he was banging on a piano while a toddler in diapers. Jacob has musical skill and insights way beyond his years on this planet.



Talking two super talents like Herbie and Jacob, gets into metaphysics, at least for me. Do not forget the uncomfortable truth.. we see the world, as we are.

The very nature of that level of talent is a high rate of receptivity. Both are learning from one another.
At that level of talent, I have no idea how lesser talents can judge the level either of them are on; other than higher than us, and higher than almost anyone you can think of. It's the nature of that level of awareness to not only be very high, but also a tremendous sponge like capacity.

Also this.. the very title of this, could, at least semantically, suggest that Jacob is above level 5.. the level of Herbie being "5". So maybe you picked up on that feeling, that, great as Jacob is, he is not above Herbie.

Finally, guys on this rare level likely do not even think in terms of their levels.
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#2901350 - 01/11/18 07:40 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
woodtus Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee

Finally, guys on this rare level likely do not even think in terms of their levels.


I wonder if you saw what Quincy Jones said about Jacob ...
"In my 65 years I have never seen anybody like this … the hippest I have ever heard in my life from anybody in any generation”

When you think about those that Quincy has worked with then that is some praise he is giving Jacob!

https://vimeo.com/124059174

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#2901358 - 01/11/18 08:01 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: woodtus]
Outkaster Offline
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He should stay away from singing. Musically he is very talented though.
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#2901378 - 01/11/18 08:37 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Outkaster]
Strays Dave Offline
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Originally Posted By: Outkaster
He should stay away from singing. Musically he is very talented though.



Yes. Here's an instance of that terrible singing. According to the opening credit this was arranged and performed by Jacob Collier.


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#2901387 - 01/11/18 08:54 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Strays Dave]
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He should stay away from singing. Musically he is very talented though."

Sorry, anyone with this giant talent can do whatever he wishes, including singing!
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#2901390 - 01/11/18 08:56 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
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Sure doesn't mean it's good though.
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#2901391 - 01/11/18 08:57 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Outkaster]
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Originally Posted By: Outkaster
Sure doesn't mean it's good though.


it's not good......... to you grin
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#2901406 - 01/11/18 09:46 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Outkaster]
Dreamchilde Offline
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Originally Posted By: Outkaster
He should stay away from singing. Musically he is very talented though.


Seriously?

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#2901409 - 01/11/18 10:06 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Outkaster]
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My friend Mary Arden Collin's son Bohdi is the young boy in the vid.
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#2901415 - 01/11/18 10:30 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Outkaster]
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Originally Posted By: Outkaster
Sure doesn't mean it's good though.


As previously stated, you may not like the style, but he's definitely a badass.

Jump to the 10:00 mark of this video to catch him laying down quick vocal harmonies in Logic Pro.

Watch it for at least a few minutes to see him alter the bass vocals.

No trickery here, just pure talent. Not sure how you can slag that.

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#2901517 - 01/12/18 12:46 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: timwat]
BRW Offline
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OP: I saw this too. Obviously the title is a bit of a misnomer, because I felt that after the child and teen, Collier didn't really "explain" harmony - it was more of a discussion between two musicians after that.

At first I was taken aback by how somehow careful and courteous Herbie was during his segment (also when he played), when he still probably could play circles around Collier in terms of harmony - and arguably Collier has studied his juicy harmonies and reharms to a tee. But I realize it was probably a conscious decision on his part.

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#2901538 - 01/12/18 05:02 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Sven Golly]
Outkaster Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
Originally Posted By: Outkaster
Sure doesn't mean it's good though.


As previously stated, you may not like the style, but he's definitely a badass.

Jump to the 10:00 mark of this video to catch him laying down quick vocal harmonies in Logic Pro.

Watch it for at least a few minutes to see him alter the bass vocals.

No trickery here, just pure talent. Not sure how you can slag that.



No Sven I hear you...he is a badass just not my thing that's all. I appreciate talent.
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#2901595 - 01/12/18 08:31 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Outkaster]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: Outkaster
No Sven I hear you...he is a badass just not my thing that's all. I appreciate talent.


Okay, my bad; thought you were suggesting otherwise. twothumbs

Frankly I'm not a fan of the "Take 6 on cocaine" approach of these arrangements (and want to put an axe through every Roland keyboard that has that f*#king patch in it mad mad mad ) but watching how he blazes through this in literally no time at all shows just how much talent, and more importantly, how much work he has put into his recording chops. I know pro engineers that would be hard pressed to keep up with that workflow.

(Obviously it's easier to go that fast when you don't have to communicate what you want to do to another human, but y'know what I mean... wink ).
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#2901610 - 01/12/18 09:13 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Sven Golly]
Theo Verelst Offline
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Those harmonies are all instrument dependent to get that "feel" he's trying to get (and almost completely fails to). I don't like his pushy broad forwardness at all maybe because them changes are church stuff from long ago, but interesting to see a Master like Hancock lay down those wonderful modal oriented nodes on the redstrument, very good.

T

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#2901638 - 01/12/18 10:50 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Theo Verelst]
Dave Ferris Offline
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.


Edited by Dave Ferris (01/12/18 01:17 PM)
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#2901660 - 01/12/18 12:14 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Dave Ferris]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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About Quincy Jones. Excellent taste in Peggy Lipton! But as a young guy, I recall not being much impressed with him as a second rate player. Quincy was given credit for arranging for Basie with Sinatra at the Sands. I am wondering if Quincy farmed any of that great music out to, eg Billy Byers, or other less heralded great arrangers.

Having said this... you know I see more sides to life than most. Quincy has to have gifts mixed in there with his gift for production, and hobnobbing with the right people.

Herbie's facial expression while listening to Jacob made the biggest impression on me of the whole video..
a mixture of humility, and genuine interest.

As for Sonny Clark versus Jacob.. I will take my time on that one.

Regarding the which is it question Dave asks... I would say.. Life is fascinatingly or frustratingly, or both.. contradictory by its very nature.
Q is a Pisces.. and I can relate to his way of stepping in and out of different worlds.. world views. Sonny Rollins and Jacob.
Only he and his Maker know how sincere he is.
Miles had the ability to step in different worlds too.
It opens up an interesting conversation, eh, Dave?


Edited by I-missRichardTee (01/12/18 12:27 PM)
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#2901665 - 01/12/18 12:49 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Strays Dave Offline
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I think of myself as a musical eclectic. I love old Elmore James, Beatles, Ellington/Strayhorn, 40's-50's R&B, Stravinsky, and on and on. Jacob has mentioned loving Stevie Wonder, Stravinsky, Bartok, Earth Wind and Fire and I'm sure many others.

I think maybe he's more akin to a Leonard Bernstein than a _____(fill in the jazz pianist of your choice). He is who his is and shouldn't (and I'm sure WON'T) try to conform to who/what people on the sidelines think he should. His skills open pathways for his creative play. All sorts of pathways.

Last night I had the notion (in an herbally inspired moment) that Jacob would probably be a good fit for being a musical director - composing, arranging, rehearsing, and performing in amazing musical productions. I'm thinking along the lines of the Ballet Russe in Paris circa 1909-1929. Contemporary composers of the day such as Stravinsky, Ravel, Debussy and Prokoviev created music for the productions. Artists like Matisse, Picasso did sets. Costume designers of the day created the wardrobes.

I think his skill set calls for more than just being a jazz pianist. Of course he hasn't asked my opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballets_Russes


Edited by Strays Dave (01/12/18 12:51 PM)
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#2901669 - 01/12/18 12:59 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Sven Golly]
Joe P Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sven Golly


And again... a mic on a KC amp! freak wink


If you don't mic it, you lose the cabinet's contribution to the tone, Sven.

( smile )

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#2901674 - 01/12/18 01:34 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Joe P]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: Joe P
Originally Posted By: Sven Golly


And again... a mic on a KC amp! freak wink


If you don't mic it, you lose the cabinet's contribution to the tone, Sven.

( smile )


Thank you, Joe. I'm glad that someone has taken a moment to commiserate with me on this key point. grin grin grin
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#2901835 - 01/13/18 11:40 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Sven Golly]
woodtus Offline
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Jacob has a new TED talk up if anyone is interested ...
https://www.ted.com/talks/jacob_collier_a_one_man_audio_visual_viral_sensation

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#2901894 - 01/13/18 08:41 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: woodtus]
Keybass Offline
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You think he knows and Zep or Halen?
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#2901919 - 01/14/18 05:50 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: woodtus]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: woodtus
Jacob has a new TED talk up if anyone is interested ...
https://www.ted.com/talks/jacob_collier_a_one_man_audio_visual_viral_sensation


One energetic creative man!
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#2901931 - 01/14/18 07:29 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Keybass Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Originally Posted By: woodtus
Jacob has a new TED talk up if anyone is interested ...
https://www.ted.com/talks/jacob_collier_a_one_man_audio_visual_viral_sensation


One energetic creative man!


In all seriousness his talent is considerable and very developed. I appreciate his efforts to bring the value of musical opportunity to the consciousness of the non-playing public.

What's very interesting to me is how many Jacob Collier type talents there are in just about every C.O.G.I.C. houses of worship all over the country.

I look forward to Collier's further development and the growth of his unique musical voice.


Edited by Keybass (01/14/18 07:30 AM)
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#2901939 - 01/14/18 08:10 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Keybass]
waygetter Offline
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A few of you have mentioned how Herbie was being respectful, but it almost seemed to me like Herbie was freezing up in the face of this crazy genius? Is that even possible? Could someone of Herbie's stature ever freeze up?

By the way, I would be so completely intimidated that I would freeze up at Level 1. But then I could blame it on the mic'd KC amp.
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#2901955 - 01/14/18 09:49 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: waygetter]
Outkaster Offline
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No everyone can get intimidated anytime. No one knows everything genius or not.
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#2901962 - 01/14/18 10:22 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Outkaster]
ProfD Offline
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Herbie Hancock has played with and/or met the most gifted musicians the world has produced over the past 60 years.

IMO, Herbie didn't freeze up nor was he intimidated or impressed with this kid. More than likely, Herbie honored an obligatory commitment to indulge him.

As a legendary musician, Herbie gets paid to sit through a lot of sh8t both good and bad. This wasn't the worst kind. His Kronos endorsement was terrible. laughcool
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#2901976 - 01/14/18 11:01 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: ProfD]
linwood Offline
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#2901982 - 01/14/18 11:42 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: ProfD]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: ProfD
Herbie Hancock has played with and/or met the most gifted musicians the world has produced over the past 60 years.

IMO, Herbie didn't freeze up nor was he intimidated or impressed with this kid. More than likely, Herbie honored an obligatory commitment to indulge him.

As a legendary musician, Herbie gets paid to sit through a lot of sh8t both good and bad. This wasn't the worst kind.


Exactly my thoughts on this and well said D.

He wasn't intimated here but I heard he had second thoughts about this going in---and who wouldn't ! wink If there was a time for anyone to be intimidated, this would be it.

He had to shed quite a bit and took some lessons regarding technique executing certain passages. I hear him doing a fantastic job.


in HD a little shorter clip


And I thought Jacob sounded very good on Here's that rainy day.


Edited by Dave Ferris (01/14/18 12:09 PM)
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#2901997 - 01/14/18 12:29 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Dave Ferris]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Well Dave Ferris, I always respect your well crafted playing and intelligent words about music.
I was trying to be open to Jacob, in a spirit that the Buddhist Herbie ( I was guessing ) himself would encourage. I mean, he did participate here.

A few more points..
I am so pleased to hear these examples of Herbie Hancock's supreme talent. Thank you Linwood!!
One clueless query.. was that version of the Gershwin piece, a new creation on the original one??

I am so frustrated that ( I mentioned this in the past, but it is worth reiterating ) the five nights in a row at the Blue Note, where I heard Herbie in trio format... absolutely blew my mind; yet it is as if it never happened.
I never heard him play that way as he did those nights. The music was impossibly difficult, spontaneous, AND supremely musical. You had to hear it, to comprehend how difficult the music was... and he even indicated that to his rapt audience... that he got lost a few times... and no wonder...
I am so tempted to call Herbie the all time greatest modern jazz pianist... but I never heard any other great artist for 5 nights in a row.. so I cannot say that.

I have a deep antipathy towards postmodernism, which says ( for me ) all contributions are equal .. and they absolutely are not... not even close. Bob Dylan is about as musical as my pinky.. and I bow to Herbie's obvious authentic genius.

BUT the "Buddhist" part of me ( I am not a Buddhist per se.. the sound of one hand clapping here ) says Herbie's genius is closely associated with openness , so I try to emulate my elder brother Mr Hancock.. trying to be as open as possible... eg Jacob, who I respect.

Thank you Dave for this contribution.
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#2902009 - 01/14/18 02:00 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
waygetter Offline
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I’m kind of thinking of it like this. When I was a kid, I grew up surfing on the coast north of Los Angeles. Way back then, we had these huge surfboards, we called them logs. These things were huge, they were heavy. You dragged them out into the surf, paddled them out, turned them around, caught waves and pretty much rode them straight in. There wasn’t much turning going on.

But we kids, we looked at the old time masters in Hawaii, they were riding these boards (surfboards, not keyboards) in huge swells, catching 20-25’ waves. They were big guys, having built up huge muscles from paddling these logs, dropping in at the last second, majestically making the huge drop, surviving near devastating wipeouts, and generally becoming swashbuckling legends of the sport.

But, as time went along, something started to happen. The boards started getting shorter and lighter, and shorter and lighter. A new breed of surfers started to show up. They were fearless, riding these shorter boards, carving amazing turns off the bottom, bouncing off the lip, getting tubed and getting spit out. They were doing new and amazing things. Us kids in SoCal, we were watching what was going on from afar, and totally amazed at what these guys were doing. It was like a dream, a fantasy, they were carving up those waves like death-defying magicians, like nothing we had ever seen and could only dream of having their skills, creativity, courage and mojo.

I have to think that the old surfing masters felt the same way, watching these new young heroes. They must have been just as blown away and maybe even a bit taken aback. But what these new kids were doing, did not in any way diminish what the old masters had done. Rather, they were validating what they had done, by carrying on and taking it to new previously unseen levels. The old masters were forever legendary, their skill, bravery and accomplishments to live on in perpetuity, just like their forebears.

And 30 years from now, Jacob will be marveling at a new young prodigy, and maybe even be a bit intimidated.
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#2902104 - 01/14/18 07:35 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: ProfD]
Mjazz Offline
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Originally Posted By: ProfD
IMO, Herbie didn't freeze up nor was he intimidated or impressed with this kid. More than likely, Herbie honored an obligatory commitment to indulge him.

As a legendary musician, Herbie gets paid to sit through a lot of sh8t both good and bad. This wasn't the worst kind. His Kronos endorsement was terrible. laughcool

In Herbie Hancock's online 25-part Master Class, in Part 4, "Learning By Listening," he offers five specific suggestions for "Who To Listen To and Copy":
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Wayne Shorter
Stevie Wonder

And lastly, Jacob Collier. "Now here's a young man ... who can teach you a lot of lessons in harmony just by listening to his records, if you can figure out what he did. His name is Jacob Collier. He's only 21 years of age, and he only has one record out, it's called In My Room, and anything on that record has plenty of things to learn from."

In the coursebook he adds: "Listen to Jacob Collier’s In My Room. You might be inspired to see how much music one person can make by himself."
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#2902112 - 01/14/18 07:55 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: waygetter]
linwood Offline
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That Rainy Day clip is pretty sweet with him and his Mom. He's 18 there. At 18, I don't think I'd even heard Rainy Day yet and my harmonic interest didn't go past -7. Plus he's playing bass and drums. That 12 tone thing Herbie throws at him was sure nice. What instincts he has!! Very cool what he was able to do with that. He doesn't have to write that stuff out either. He can do it in his head and fairly quick. It's like what Homer Simpson says: Those jazz guys are just makin' that stuff up.

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#2902121 - 01/14/18 08:33 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: waygetter]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: waygetter
I’m kind of thinking of it like this.


very cool analogy. cheers
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#2902144 - 01/14/18 11:56 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
BRW Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
About Quincy Jones. Excellent taste in Peggy Lipton! But as a young guy, I recall not being much impressed with him as a second rate player.

Quincy has to have gifts mixed in there with his gift for production, and hobnobbing with the right people.



This is off-topic, but a big part of Q's production prowess has always been surrounding him with some diamond individual talents, be it his L.A. crew of musicians or songwriters like Temperton. In some cases, like on some of MJ's songs, his input is dubious when Jackson's personal demo is pretty much the final arrangement, yet Q gets arrangement credit etc...

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#2902146 - 01/15/18 12:35 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: BRW]
poserp Offline
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Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 212
Originally Posted By: BRW
In some cases, like on some of MJ's songs, his input is dubious when Jackson's personal demo is pretty much the final arrangement, yet Q gets arrangement credit etc...


I don't know... Two masters at work IMO. I don't even like this particular song, but this is what that looks like:

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