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#2900910 - 01/09/18 01:46 PM Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels
timwat Offline
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#2900924 - 01/09/18 02:30 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: timwat]
davedoerfler Offline
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my opinion of Jacob just went up exponentially.

As far as the back line company Wired used for the video. facepalm

I thought the sound (not the concept) during the HH segment was terrible.
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#2900951 - 01/09/18 04:29 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: davedoerfler]
Dreamchilde Offline
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Love this freak of nature.
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#2900958 - 01/09/18 05:08 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Dreamchilde]
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I'm sorry; I can't get past the mic'ed KC amp. roll

(okay, I can, and that was pretty cool... although I don't think I saw/heard him explain harmony to Herbie. Maybe I missed it. wink
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#2900961 - 01/09/18 05:13 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Sven Golly]
davedoerfler Offline
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he didn't explain anything to Herbie, best I can tell. It was a discussion.
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#2900962 - 01/09/18 05:19 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: davedoerfler]
timwat Offline
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And while that might 'violate' the premise given to Collier, I thought the HH segment was entirely appropriate, warm and open.

I can't imagine Collier 'explaining' anything about harmony to HH, anyway.
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#2900966 - 01/09/18 05:27 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: timwat]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: timwat
And while that might 'violate' the premise given to Collier, I thought the HH segment was entirely appropriate, warm and open.

I can't imagine Collier 'explaining' anything about harmony to HH, anyway.


My point... that whole series involves people explaining their topic of expertise at 5 different levels.

Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the hell out of it (although I got more out of level 4 where he mentioned the minor plagal cadence, personally wink ).

And again... a mic on a KC amp! freak wink
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#2900967 - 01/09/18 05:27 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Sven Golly]
Keybass Offline
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The title of this thread should be more like "Jacob Collier explains his understanding of harmony to four different levels and misses the lesson of effective harmonic function by Herbie Hancock."

Lots of levels to discuss with this one.
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#2900968 - 01/09/18 05:29 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Sven Golly]
timwat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
Originally Posted By: timwat
And while that might 'violate' the premise given to Collier, I thought the HH segment was entirely appropriate, warm and open.

I can't imagine Collier 'explaining' anything about harmony to HH, anyway.


My point... that whole series involves people explaining their topic of expertise at 5 different levels.

Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the hell out of it (although I got more out of level 4 where he mentioned the minor plagal cadence, personally wink ).

And again... a mic on a KC amp! freak wink


Point taken.

And yes, the KC amp. Those things truly are ubiquitous.
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#2900969 - 01/09/18 05:30 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Keybass]
timwat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Keybass
The title of this thread should be more like "Jacob Collier explains his understanding of harmony to four different levels and misses the lesson of effective harmonic function by Herbie Hancock."

Lots of levels to discuss with this one.



I don't think the forum software allows that long of a title...even if I had thought of it.
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#2900971 - 01/09/18 05:35 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: timwat]
Keybass Offline
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Originally Posted By: timwat
Originally Posted By: Keybass
The title of this thread should be more like "Jacob Collier explains his understanding of harmony to four different levels and misses the lesson of effective harmonic function by Herbie Hancock."

Lots of levels to discuss with this one.


I don't think the forum software allows that long of a title...even if I had thought of it.


smile

I'm thankful you started the thread.

The Afro/Euro angle could be an exciting avenue to explore as would be the ego/servant approach. Collier was enthusiastic and Herbie was gracious. It's a cool concept but the real value would have been a lesson in harmony by Herbie Hancock with your host Jacob Collier.
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#2900979 - 01/09/18 06:01 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Keybass]
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Just means Jacob is Level 5 too, not Level 6 (which probably doesn't exist unless you're Nigel Tufnel, right?) He and Herbie are peers. Wired, being nowhere near Level 5, can't tell and therefore went for the clickbaity title.
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#2900986 - 01/09/18 06:20 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: MAJUSCULE]
Keybass Offline
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Originally Posted By: MAJUSCULE
Just means Jacob is Level 5 too, not Level 6 (which probably doesn't exist unless you're Nigel Tufnel, right?) He and Herbie are peers. Wired, being nowhere near Level 5, can't tell and therefore went for the clickbaity title.


Please understand that I mean no disrespect regarding your post, but I couldn't disagree more. How in the world are they peers? By what standard does one apply to come to that conclusion?

Collier is very talented but where is his body of work? Will jazz musicians be studying him 100 years from now? The answer is, who knows?, maybe. Well until that answer is the same as it would be if the question was about Herbie then IMHO they are not peers by any stretch of the imagination.



Edited by Keybass (01/09/18 06:22 PM)
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#2900990 - 01/09/18 07:00 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Keybass]
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Herbie talked about his inspiration he got from Miles. Brought me back to Miles' 1964 live recording My Funny Valentine + Four & More. Herbie is level 10 on this.
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#2901035 - 01/10/18 03:24 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: JazzPiano88]
woodtus Offline
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I love the idea that the thing that changed Herbie's whole conception is a misheard word from Miles.


Edited by woodtus (01/10/18 07:39 AM)

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#2901036 - 01/10/18 03:24 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: JazzPiano88]
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While the overtone series and combination tones, also known as Tartini tones, are measurable facts of music.
I had never known there was such a thing- in terms of an acoustical phenomenon - as undertones. Unless of course Jacob is referring to combination tones!

Does anyone know about undertones; is this arbitrary poetic license or a fact of acoustics?

Note:
The KC amp did not disturb me at all. Such bias... come on, we know it is far from our first choice, but it sounded fine in this context.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (01/10/18 03:25 AM)
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#2901070 - 01/10/18 07:25 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
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I've heard Collier talk about the idea of "negative harmony before," but not undertones. It seems to be just a different term for intervals and harmony moving in the opposite direction?

Just reading about it now, some instruments can produce acoustical undertones when overblown or bowed. Some theoreticians believe that sympathetic resonance produced by undertone notes played affects the timbre of a root note more than the same effect caused by overtones. Another theoretician believes the resonant bodies of instruments can sometimes vibrate at fractions of the fundamental tone, creating audible undertones.

The brown drawbars on a tonewheel organ are designed to produce audible subharmonics of the fundamental tone.

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#2901115 - 01/10/18 09:23 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee

The KC amp did not disturb me at all. Such bias... come on, we know it is far from our first choice, but it sounded fine in this context.


I thought it sounded OK when Jacob was playing solo. When both keyboards were playing together I thought it was horrible. It could not have been the players in this case.
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#2901128 - 01/10/18 10:28 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: davedoerfler]
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Dave: Possibly one or the pair of them had partaken of a pear just before discussion. What say you?

I had not listened to the last few minutes when they did Amazing Grace.
I still do not see the KC amp as a big problem.
The problem, if there was one, was the difficulty in playing spontaneously with one another. That is one of Herbie's gifts, his receptivity to the moment. I noticed at one point in Amazing Grace. he resorted to pure octaves.. always a good way to avoid harmonic collisions.

Herbie is my hero ( as I am sure many here feel similarly ) and I am watching him as he is being kind of gently "taught" by a youngster. I am observing ( possibly superimposing my own reactions to Jacob.. as if I were Herbie being spoken to by a boy prodigy ) Herbie's energy ( receptivity and diplomacy ) as he listens respectfully to Jacob. THAT was my main focus on this exchange.. not as much the music theory.
But I did check out one of Herbie's mentors, he mentioned; the very gifted Chicago pianist Chris Anderson.
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#2901147 - 01/10/18 11:51 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
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I kind of don't get the point. You can analyze the shit out of anything I guess, maybe its just me. Part of what he is talking about has to become instinct or is built in. People kind of have it or they don't. Some people need it develop it further and lessons and life experiences will teach that. I remember in 1995 reading that when Herbie was interviewed in keyboard magazine.


Edited by Outkaster (01/10/18 11:56 AM)
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#2901152 - 01/10/18 12:12 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Outkaster]
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A lot of this went over my head, but as usual i appreciate Jacobs emphasis on the feeling aspect of these abstract concepts, and coming up with analogies like a tree above the ground and below.

I didn’t understand though his use of an EP for demonstration purposes. The notes blend together beautifully, but hearing distinct harmonies is lost compared to playing the same thing with an AP. At least he used an AP at the end with HH. It was also curious they used the RED keyboards and blacked out the logo. And why mic the KC at all, it was just used for their monitors, feeds from the keys themselves could be used for recording.

Did any of you get something useful from the level 4 and 5 segments? Hard to imagine anyone did. More than anything this seemed like an exercise in demonstrating that there are levels most of us mere mortals wouldn’t begin to comprehend.
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#2901161 - 01/10/18 12:41 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Randelph]
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Originally Posted By: Randelph
A lot of this went over my head, but as usual i appreciate Jacobs emphasis on the feeling aspect of these abstract concepts, and coming up with analogies like a tree above the ground and below.

I didn’t understand though his use of an EP for demonstration purposes. The notes blend together beautifully, but hearing distinct harmonies is lost compared to playing the same thing with an AP. At least he used an AP at the end with HH. It was also curious they used the RED keyboards and blacked out the logo. And why mic the KC at all, it was just used for their monitors, feeds from the keys themselves could be used for recording.


I am so pleased you said that comment about Acoustic piano versus EP. I recall my music teacher saying the way to hear harmony when writing, is with an acoustic piano... just as you said, Thank you for that. like

Video was more philosophical than actually useful to someone wishing to learn music.
To understand harmony you have to write it daily. And Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony is a great foundation.

Divorcing harmony from melody or contrapuntal, is limited in its utility.

A melodic line, implies harmonies... and too often harmony explorations contradict the melodic implied harmonies, to such an extent, that it leaves me cold.

Composition is the real deal. Let's encourage students to write each part ( SATB soprano alto etc ) THAT is the real deal. Voices, not over simplified chords.

I did not see the real point of this video.. I just enjoyed Herbie's humanity here.
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#2901238 - 01/10/18 04:54 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
woodtus Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee

Composition is the real deal. Let's encourage students to write each part ( SATB soprano alto etc ) THAT is the real deal. Voices, not over simplified chords.


Maybe you would enjoy watching Jacob creating a complete arrangement in real time..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ulJmW6IkiM

Or his most recent harmU's ... some harmonic genius in here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN1QQI-npbc

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#2901271 - 01/10/18 07:17 PM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: woodtus]
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Maybe I didn't read closely enough, but it seems to me that several posters have come close to--but not reached--the point that the voice of the instrument can govern what will and will not work harmonically.

If you have a pure sine wave like a flute (not quite a perfect sine, but close enough), you can use notes that would not work with a more complex waveform, such as what Jacob Collier was using. Herbie Hancock chose a more conservative wave structure (EP), and the notes he played always worked. Collier's choices didn't always work (for me) because the overtones built into each note (lots of harmonics, getting up into sevenths and stuff), while they might work as a single note, produced excessive dissonance when played in combinations in chords.

I can hang with dissonance to a point, but only to a point. Beyond that, a complex chord begins to sound like someone bashing pans together. Other peoples' tolerance for dissonance will be greater or lesser, but at a minimum you'll need to take into account your audience.

Rule of thumb: The more complex your chords, the simpler your tone needs to be. Oddly enough, I figured that out playing bass.

I kept getting the distinct impression that Jacob Collier was trying to show off chords with augmented fratzenjammers and diminished Sus-es and 7ths, 11ths, and sub-99ths...I think his chord choices would have been better served by a simpler (tonally) voice.

Perhaps in the next video, Herbie could give him pointers on voices, since he's obviously got it knocked.

That said, I liked the video.

Grey
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#2901319 - 01/11/18 05:35 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: GRollins]
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That's how I feel Grey. Just because you can do something doesn't always mean you need to or should. I could have practiced 4 or 5 scales in the time that it took to watch that and come out a better player.
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#2901326 - 01/11/18 05:42 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: GRollins]
Strays Dave Offline
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Jacob Collier is a massive talent. I found this video about him doing a week long guest residency at MIT (below). Around 7 minutes in, someone explains how his arrangement of "Hideaway" (being rehearsed by the choir in this video) has rhythmic groups of 3, 5 in the arrangement played against a slow pulse of 4 beats to the measure.

In my opinion, based on watching and listening to various videos, this guy will do great things. I hear what I perceive as stodgy, some people saying "who is this young squirt ? What has he done to merit sitting next to Herbie ?". I'd say that Herbie has listened to Jacob's work. I'd say that Herbie knows this is someone who's doing, and will do, great things.

As I understand it, both of Jacob's parents are musicians in London - either symphony players or professors - or both. Rather than beginning his music study at age 3 like Keith Jarrett - I suspect he was banging on a piano while a toddler in diapers. Jacob has musical skill and insights way beyond his years on this planet.

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#2901331 - 01/11/18 06:28 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: GRollins]
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
I can hang with dissonance to a point, but only to a point. Beyond that, a complex chord begins to sound like someone bashing pans together. Other peoples' tolerance for dissonance will be greater or lesser, but at a minimum you'll need to take into account your audience.


thu
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#2901333 - 01/11/18 06:41 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: Strays Dave]
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Originally Posted By: Strays Dave

Jacob Collier is a massive talent. I found this video about him doing a week long guest residency at MIT (below). Around 7 minutes in, someone explains how his arrangement of "Hideaway" (being rehearsed by the choir in this video) has rhythmic groups of 3, 5 in the arrangement played against a slow pulse of 4 beats to the measure.

In my opinion, based on watching and listening to various videos, this guy will do great things. I hear what I perceive as stodgy, some people saying "who is this young squirt ? What has he done to merit sitting next to Herbie ?". I'd say that Herbie has listened to Jacob's work. I'd say that Herbie knows this is someone who's doing, and will do, great things.

As I understand it, both of Jacob's parents are musicians in London - either symphony players or professors - or both. Rather than beginning his music study at age 3 like Keith Jarrett - I suspect he was banging on a piano while a toddler in diapers. Jacob has musical skill and insights way beyond his years on this planet.



Talking two super talents like Herbie and Jacob, gets into metaphysics, at least for me. Do not forget the uncomfortable truth.. we see the world, as we are.

The very nature of that level of talent is a high rate of receptivity. Both are learning from one another.
At that level of talent, I have no idea how lesser talents can judge the level either of them are on; other than higher than us, and higher than almost anyone you can think of. It's the nature of that level of awareness to not only be very high, but also a tremendous sponge like capacity.

Also this.. the very title of this, could, at least semantically, suggest that Jacob is above level 5.. the level of Herbie being "5". So maybe you picked up on that feeling, that, great as Jacob is, he is not above Herbie.

Finally, guys on this rare level likely do not even think in terms of their levels.
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#2901350 - 01/11/18 07:40 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: I-missRichardTee]
woodtus Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee

Finally, guys on this rare level likely do not even think in terms of their levels.


I wonder if you saw what Quincy Jones said about Jacob ...
"In my 65 years I have never seen anybody like this … the hippest I have ever heard in my life from anybody in any generation”

When you think about those that Quincy has worked with then that is some praise he is giving Jacob!

https://vimeo.com/124059174

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#2901358 - 01/11/18 08:01 AM Re: Jacob Collier attempts to explain one concept to 5 levels [Re: woodtus]
Outkaster Offline
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He should stay away from singing. Musically he is very talented though.
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