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#2897275 - 12/21/17 07:40 PM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: ElmerJFudd]
#%$(# Offline
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Registered: 04/21/13
Posts: 4989
Loc: Orlando, Florida
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
the neighbors downstairs hear thump thump thump from the action through the floor.


Let's hope they know it's a pianist causing the noise. blush

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#2897278 - 12/21/17 07:49 PM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: #%$(#]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5634
Loc: USA, greater NY area
smile

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#2897293 - 12/21/17 08:44 PM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: ElmerJFudd]
burningbusch Offline
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Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 7751
Loc: Ghost Planet
With one of my high school bands my setup was a Minimoog and acoustic piano (I had to sell my M3/Leslie to buy the Moog). The piano lived in my bedroom, and in order to get it out and down the narrow hall, it had to be flipped on end. Once lowered, we put on the dollies and took it out to the van. Reversed this process to get it back into my bedroom. It was a spinet so maybe 300-400lbs. Not a big deal, you did what was required. I worked part-time in a music store delivering pianos/organs, so this is something we did all the time. Today kids are such wusses, don't they know keyboards are supposed to be monstrously heavy?

Busch

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#2897294 - 12/21/17 08:47 PM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: ElmerJFudd]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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Registered: 03/27/08
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Loc: eastern North Carolina
If I could combine the bottom two octaves of my PC3X with the upper notes of the 5' 8" Howard Grand - that would really be the best sound (or if I had a 9' Baldwin from the USA days or Bosendorfer). And the Howard does look nicer in the Living Room, even when not being played.

There really is no comparison, even though the acoustic does get out of tune. The feel is different, the sound is different.

But, the Howard is NOT going to be moved out of the Living Room and hauled to a gig. Most of the time, neither is the PC3X. The older I get, the lighter and smaller the rig needs to be.

Time may come that I need the $4400 I paid for the Howard, but it has been nice to have. Also glad to have the digitals.
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#2897321 - 12/22/17 05:45 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
Outkaster Offline
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Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 5867
Loc: Rochester, NY
Well a digital piano will never be able to "be" an acoustic piano. I go to a famous music school here locally were there are Julliard and Eastman graduates teaching. The school requires people to have a piano in their home when kids are learning. I still think it's a great idea to get the right perspective on the instrument.
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#2897327 - 12/22/17 06:10 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: Outkaster]
Strays Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/06/16
Posts: 72
I made the comment about wondering about the "obsession with acoustic pianos". Later, the old line occurred to me: talking about music is like dancing about architecture. We discussed the sound of acoustic/digital pianos without specific examples of sound.

I have 2 examples here. The acoustic piano here is badly out of tune, maybe more than your average piano, but it illustrates my point. The digital piano here is a new model I'd not heard of - the Korg Air (around $1400 reported street price).

I once read a post comment where someone said he'd prefer the worst most out-of-tune acoustic piano to the best digital piano - really ?

Demo of Korg Air



Out of tune piano
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#2897334 - 12/22/17 06:38 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9931
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Well that was cringe-worthy.


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#2897354 - 12/22/17 08:21 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: Synthoid]
Jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 1812
Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
Here's the thing. The guy playing the G1 almost certainly learned to play on an acoustic since about the age of 6. He's developed his touch and finger control on an acoustic. That allows him to control the digital to get the best sound out of it.

If someone were to ask him what he thinks of the feel of the keys of the G1 and how does it compare overall to a good grand what does anyone here think he would say?

I know what he would say. Zip, zero, not close, not EVEN close, fuggettaboutit, you're kidding right?

Bob

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#2897376 - 12/22/17 10:35 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: Jazzmammal]
Strays Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/06/16
Posts: 72
Originally Posted By: Jazzmammal
Here's the thing. The guy playing the G1 almost certainly learned to play on an acoustic since about the age of 6. He's developed his touch and finger control on an acoustic. That allows him to control the digital to get the best sound out of it.

If someone were to ask him what he thinks of the feel of the keys of the G1 and how does it compare overall to a good grand what does anyone here think he would say?

I know what he would say. Zip, zero, not close, not EVEN close, fuggettaboutit, you're kidding right?

Bob


If I had the means I'd probably say the same thing. Having the means, means having the space adequate to accommodate a grand piano. Also, the means to pay for a good grand piano. And the means and motivation to have it tuned 2-4 times per year (if I were going to own a good grand piano in this scenario, tunings would only be an inconvenience to my time - not my wallet).

Someone posted Keith Jarrett. I was just listening to "Jasmine" with Keith and Charlie Haden yesterday. I love Keith's playing. Keith is in the category of being a musical prince. He can pay for and insist that a piano is tuned and maintained to his exacting taste. He has a practice studio over his garage. But the cost of this (doing it the way it deserves to be done) is prohibitive to many of us.
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#2897395 - 12/22/17 11:46 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: Strays Dave]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5634
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Great shared experiences- there's clearly a place, time and reason for both. Perhaps digital pianos greatest achievement has been bringing the joy of piano keyboard playing to everyone, even on the tightest budget. Even in the acoustic piano's hey day when it was the only option it was still a pastime for more affluent households. But if all things align - space, money, desire, etc. a fine acoustic instrument is tremendously resonant, expressive, beautiful to the senses in every way.
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#2897411 - 12/22/17 12:40 PM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: ElmerJFudd]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
Posts: 660
Hell, I'd love to have a grand, but it's not going to happen. Given that I didn't make enough to buy anything I'd want even when I was working, I'm certainly not going to get there now that I'm retired.

Plus there's the fact that I'd have to acquire a cat to dust the thing the way I and someone (Gov. Ag?) were talking about in another thread. Now, if I could convince one of my raccoons to do the job, that might change the equation...

Grey
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#2897423 - 12/22/17 01:36 PM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: GRollins]
GRollins Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 09/01/17
Posts: 660
Okay, let's be realistic...I could find the physical space for a Voyager XL more readily than a grand piano.

(I say this having just come upstairs after practicing for twenty minutes or so and banging my knees on the Hammond bench about once every 30 seconds.)

Grey
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#2897527 - 12/23/17 04:32 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: GRollins]
BuckW Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 165
Aside from a grand piano setting off one of a mansion's extra rooms, this thread could just as well have been about "the great Hammond organ pushback" or "the great modular synth pushback".

The value proposition just isn't there anymore and that toothpaste isn't going back into the tube.

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#2897544 - 12/23/17 06:11 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: BuckW]
GRollins Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 09/01/17
Posts: 660
I suppose every Christmas has its Scrooge.

Grey
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#2897562 - 12/23/17 07:57 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: BuckW]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5634
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Originally Posted By: BuckW
Aside from a grand piano setting off one of a mansion's extra rooms, this thread could just as well have been about "the great Hammond organ pushback" or "the great modular synth pushback".

The value proposition just isn't there anymore and that toothpaste isn't going back into the tube.


A fine musical instrument, like a work of art, has little to do with a value proposition. Of course there will always be collectors who snatch things up in hopes of increasing value for resale, an investment. But the pianist wants the Steinway D to play. And in this case - it is priceless.
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#2897563 - 12/23/17 08:00 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: GRollins]
Donsta Offline
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Registered: 03/16/16
Posts: 114
I am fortunate that where I work I have access to a number of Steinway, Kawai, and Yamaha grand pianos. Most of them are wonderful and I love being able to play on them. A couple of them are atrocious and I hate using them.

I don't have the money for a fine grand piano in my home and quite frankly I'd rather have a good digital piano than a bad acoustic one. Some of my colleagues disagree with me.
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#2897567 - 12/23/17 08:20 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: Donsta]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5634
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Without a doubt if life situation dictates the choice being a good digital vs. piece of crap acoustic - then it's a good digital in a heartbeat! Most fine acoustic sales these days are institutions I would imagine - and if you have access to play them, you're a lucky fellow.
like
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#2897588 - 12/23/17 10:08 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: BuckW]
slowtraveler Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 387
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: BuckW
The value proposition just isn't there anymore and that toothpaste isn't going back into the tube.

It depends which particular tube you're talking about, I think. The casual/student home market, for sure. That tube's been empty for years, squeezed dry by a secular decline in demand, as well as by the availability of excellent substitute goods in the form of digital keyboards and used acoustics.

In other market segments (institutional, professional and semi-pro, high-end luxury), I believe demand is much more stable. Which, I would assume, is exactly why the remaining bricks-and-mortar piano retailers are fewer in number, and concentrated towards the high end of the market. Can you hear me now, Mr. DeFio?

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#2897596 - 12/23/17 10:40 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 2287
Loc: NYC area
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
A fine musical instrument, like a work of art, has little to do with a value proposition. Of course there will always be collectors who snatch things up in hopes of increasing value for resale, an investment. But the pianist wants the Steinway D to play. And in this case - it is priceless.

In two weeks I'm playing at a club near me that touts its "historic" piano, a Steinway that was at the Village Gate in NYC (for those who don't know, this was a famous NY jazz venue for years, where pretty much everybody played). There's a poster on an easel with a list of the pianists who've played it. It's a very impressive list, a who's who of jazz piano. You might be shocked (NOT) to hear that the piano is in questionable condition. For my gig there I'll bring my Roland A800 pro, laptop and QSC speakers. They should take this piano, put it in a corner, surround it with a velvet rope and display it as a historical artifact. I'm there to make music.

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#2897622 - 12/23/17 12:55 PM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: Reezekeys]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 5619
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
A couple years back I played a concert in the smaller hall at Cal State Northridge. It wasn't Trio but Quintet with two horns. Still, I soloed on every tune extensively.

They had a Steinway D there, maybe 25 years old I was told. This piano felt like the action had never been regulated in the life of the piano. It was as responsive as trying to drive a semi in a mall parking structure.

Also it had no sustain or singing characteristics in the mid to higher registers that are so common to Ds. The sound literally vanished in the air. On that stage, in that room, it was truly a "dead" sounding piano.

I felt bad about my playing that night and really felt I would been more inspired on my CP5, going through my RCF TT08As, which I was still using at the time.

I've played the D in the main concert hall in the past and that one is excellent, simply because they spend the $$$ to keep it in top shape.
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#2897643 - 12/23/17 02:05 PM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: Dave Ferris]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5634
Loc: USA, greater NY area
That's it really in a nutshell, Dave. An acoustic instrument requires care and maintenance. It's not fair to compare even a Steinway D to your CP5 and an amp if the D is 25 years old and being left to rot, right?
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#2897681 - 12/24/17 12:42 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Jazzmammal Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 1812
Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
That's why in my comment I specifically said a good grand and of course all the comments are correct concerning finances, lifestyle, having space, not having to move every few years, etc.

My comment was simply a comparison of the best digital to a good grand.

Years ago I did a gig in a lounge that had an almost new Yamaha 5'2 grand. Since the band did many different styles including organ blues and fusion I brought my Kurz PC2X for organ, EP's and the scat voices. I started the gig playing the Yamaha then used the Kurz for the other stuff. On a whim for a piano tune I slid from the Yamaha's bench to my Kurz through my two Barbettas. At the time that was a very good rig. The Yamaha made the Kurz sound like a kazoo. To say it wasn't even close does a disservice to being close to anything and I played less than one chorus on the Kurz and slid back to the Yamaha because I really couldn't stand it. It was a joke yet at that time the PC2 was considered one of the best digitals around, it was used in all sorts of live concerts by the biggest names and sounded great. Of course that was going through a megabuck PA direct from a megabuck pro mixing board being run by a pro soundman. Using my Barbettas sitting right next to a Yamaha grand was painful beyond belief.

Bob

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#2897687 - 12/24/17 04:34 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: Jazzmammal]
BuckW Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 165
For me the biggest attraction of a grand is the bass for which you need at least a 7 footer.

I once had an ancient herringbone Homberg Steinway, 7 foot. I had to sell it to feed my kids.

I'd rather have a great digital piano and great speakers for bass than any baby grand.


Edited by BuckW (12/24/17 04:36 AM)

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#2897724 - 12/24/17 09:21 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: BuckW]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2808
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: BuckW
For me the biggest attraction of a grand is the bass for which you need at least a 7 footer.

I once had an ancient herringbone Homberg Steinway, 7 foot. I had to sell it to feed my kids.

I'd rather have a great digital piano and great speakers for bass than any baby grand.


My 6'4" Mason & Hamlin grand has bass massive enough to knock a skyscraper over.
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#2897731 - 12/24/17 10:22 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: MathOfInsects]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 5619
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Generally speaking a "baby grand" size is under 6'.

Yes, especially if your Mason AA is an older one, those are fabulous pianos. I'm not as crazy about the new ones I've played.

The older M&H BB was one of the best pianos ever made.
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#2897733 - 12/24/17 10:24 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: Dave Ferris]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2808
Loc: California
Yes, the older incarnation, not the reboot.

Massive sound, so complex too.
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#2897735 - 12/24/17 10:31 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: MathOfInsects]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 5619
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Fwiw- If and when you would ever decide to get it re-built or restored - new strings , hammers, etc. -- a piano like that would be one of the few that would be worth it.

This might be the only guy on the West Coast I'd trust a re-build on one. Here's some pictures of a restored M&H BB. Although loving elephants as much as I do, I don't think I'd want the ivory keys. wink
http://www.erwinspiano.com/pianosforsale/1929-mason-hamlin-bb-7-grand-piano/


Edited by Dave Ferris (12/24/17 10:39 AM)
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#2897822 - 12/25/17 07:12 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: Reezekeys]
Joe BrokeIt Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Although loving elephants as much as I do, I don't think I'd want the ivory keys. wink
http://www.erwinspiano.com/pianosforsale/1929-mason-hamlin-bb-7-grand-piano/
Since they're original and the animals have been dead for nearly 100 years, that wouldn't bother me. My previous piano was a 1924 and it had ivory keys. The only issue for me was if I was going to do major work on the piano, what I would do about the keys. Fortunately, they were in pretty good shape so I could have left them as is, with the two or three minor chips they had. I definitely wouldn't be trying to get new ivory.

Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
akers. They should take this piano,put it in a corner, surround it with a velvet rope and display it as a historical artifact and have it rebuilt.
Fixed it for you. In fact, with all the great players that have played it, they might be able to get the funds to have Steinway themselves redo the thing.

SIR PAUL MCCARTNEY CALLS ON STEINWAY & SONS TO RESTORE SOME MOTOWN MAGIC

Story after work was done and piano was returned to Detroit

I just don't get the comments in this thread that act like "that's a bad piano, it's junk" as opposed to, "gee, it would be cool if they could have it fixed."

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#2897832 - 12/25/17 07:36 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: Joe BrokeIt]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 2287
Loc: NYC area
Originally Posted By: Joe BrokeIt
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
akers. They should take this piano,put it in a corner, surround it with a velvet rope and display it as a historical artifact and have it rebuilt.
Fixed it for you. In fact, with all the great players that have played it, they might be able to get the funds to have Steinway themselves redo the thing

"Get the funds" how exactly? This is a small restaurant. Not a jazz club or any kind of music club. Sure, it would be nice. I only played it once, a while ago, so maybe they've had more work done I'll find out soon. Because hope springs eternal, I'll show up a little early, leave my gear in my trunk, and check it out. Then decide whether to set up my stuff or not. Since this is one of my 2 or 3-times-a-year gig with one of the best jazz drummers on the planet, I'll need to get a really good hit from it to keep my stuff in the car. To get back to your point - rebuilding a piano is pretty expensive. Who's to say this one wasn't a dog to begin with, notwithstanding the name? It was in the Village Gate for years, being pounded on every night! If I was a philanthropist looking to pay for a piano restoration I would search for one that's seen a lot less abuse. The list of pianists that played it is very impressive though, maybe I'll post a pic of the plaque they display with the names!

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#2897833 - 12/25/17 07:40 AM Re: The Great Piano Pushback [Re: Joe BrokeIt]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5634
Loc: USA, greater NY area
A rebuilt is also the more affordable alternative to new. And with a little research and leg work you might find the one for you - with the character and soul in its history that resonates with you like its 230 some odd strings. Like getting your hands on a Rhodes, Wurly or otherwise times 10.

Obviously this isn't about modern gigging - digital stuff is portable and capable of every timbre., Always in tune and doesn't require micing. Right tool for the right job. But for acoustic performance in a parlour (or classical concert hall, etc.) playing un-amplified with other acoustic instruments - also right tool for the right job. 60s/70s stuff sounds great on the real electro mechanicals - but hauling and caring for them is both a luxury and a pain.

It's funny how the technology debate is so prevalent in keyboard instruments - and how much size and weight plays a part. The brass, woodwind and string guys aren't phased as much by it all. Players of these little case and carry instruments would still give their left nut for the right Selmer Conn Stradivarius etc.
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