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#2894015 - 12/05/17 04:24 AM U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist?
BuckW Online   content
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Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 127
Last Saturday you could clearly hear some backing pad but there was no key player on stage. Recording? SNL band supplement?

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#2894023 - 12/05/17 05:10 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: BuckW]
George88 Offline
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They have been playing to tracks for years.

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#2894024 - 12/05/17 05:14 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: George88]
yannis D Offline
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Back in the day they used to hide him under the stage with a buch of keyboards.
Nowdays, as George88 mentioned, it's usually tracks
Too bad for my taste
(One of the main reasons i still admire the Rolling Stones, is that they NEVER hide their musicians under stage!)
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#2894026 - 12/05/17 05:28 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: yannis D]
wd8dky Offline
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Playing to backing tracks, or triggering samples/loops live? There's a difference...

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#2894029 - 12/05/17 05:42 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: wd8dky]
Markay Offline
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I saw them at a Stadium show on their last tour here, the one where Bono said that every time he clapped a child died and the audience responds with well stop clapping then, and there was definitely more guitar parts to be heard than the Edge was playing.

Tried, but wasn't close enough to see what was going on under the stage.
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#2894030 - 12/05/17 05:49 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: yannis D]
Synthoid Online   content
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Originally Posted By: yannis D
Back in the day they used to hide him under the stage


Inexcusable.
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#2894037 - 12/05/17 06:43 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Synthoid]
MotiDave Offline
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They are transitioning to a boy band. Soon they will have all musicians hidden and will spotlight a new voca trio with snappy new dance moves.

Its the natural evolution ... i don’t see the problem here?

A few backing tracks is fine imo but I’ve seen some tribute bands that ought to be ashamed at the amount of “backing track” they use vs amount of live performed music, I’ve seen one band that will literally have 100% of all music tracked as a couple guys fake playing and one (very good) singer does a secret karaoke act. i do not know how they go on stage, i couldn’t ... i just couldn’t.
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#2894038 - 12/05/17 06:47 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MotiDave]
rickzjamm Offline
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At that level U2 can afford a keyboardist, brass section & string quartet.
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#2894039 - 12/05/17 06:49 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MotiDave]
The Real MC Offline
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At least Tom Petty had the class to place their 2nd keyboardist onstage with the group.

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#2894043 - 12/05/17 07:11 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: rickzjamm]
Synthoid Online   content
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Originally Posted By: rickzjamm
At that level U2 can afford a keyboardist, brass section & string quartet.


Probably wealthy enough to afford a small country by now. idk
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#2894045 - 12/05/17 07:12 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: The Real MC]
wd8dky Offline
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Wasn't The Who's keyboard player hidden in the back too? I thought I remember that from an older concert video.

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#2894047 - 12/05/17 07:22 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: wd8dky]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: wd8dky
Wasn't The Who's keyboard player hidden in the back too? I thought I remember that from an older concert video.


Pretty sure they used tape.


While I'm not doubting U2 uses some tracks, you might be surprised at how much is coming from the Edge's Guitar. I watched a Netflix Documentary called "This May Get Loud" featuring Jimmy Page, Edge, and Jack White (white stripes). It was pretty cool because it was basically 3 generations of guitar players each with a different approach, it went into each of their backgrounds and put the 3 of them in one room telling stories and jamming.

Point being, Edge was the one of the 3 that fully embraced heavy effects and technology. His rack is enormous. He uses a lot of syncopated delays that can make it sound like multiple guitars, and also uses so,e guitar synth type effects to sound like pads and other sy thing stuff going on, In one scene he was playing something that sounded thick and synthy and then turned off all the effects and said "this is what I'm actually playing" and it was like 2 notes in a simple pattern.
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#2894051 - 12/05/17 07:39 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
GregC Offline
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I use Karma drums and drum tracks on my tunes.

Keyboard parts , bass, guitars 100% authentic.

Drummers beware, revenge will be mine wink

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#2894052 - 12/05/17 07:48 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
analogika Offline
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In the mid-80s, the Motörhead keyboarder doubling all the bass parts for actual, well, bass had his Memorymoog hidden off-stage, as well.

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#2894053 - 12/05/17 07:50 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
J. Dan Offline
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Well if you think about it, keyboard players were the first ones taking down other instruments. With the advent of drum machines and sequencers and their rise in popularity in the late 70s and early 80s, a lot of drummers and guitar players were out of work. Just think of all the synth pop duos of the time/

Erasure
Yaz
Soft Cell
The Buggles
The Eurythmics
Naked Eyes
Pet Shop Boys
Tears for Fears
Etc.

I did it myself - playing most of the 90s in a duo with a laptop acting as our drummer/bass player.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894055 - 12/05/17 07:52 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
Synthoid Online   content
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Originally Posted By: GregC
I use Karma drums and drum tracks on my tunes.


+1

The good old Korg M3 still going strong here. rockit
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#2894059 - 12/05/17 08:15 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Synthoid]
CEB Offline
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If you all remember .... Midijr played keys for U2. grin

Actually its Terry Lawless. Or atleast Terry played U2 live shows for a longtime.
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#2894060 - 12/05/17 08:17 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: CEB]
CEB Offline
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Looks like he's still doing live shows on top studio and synth programming for the band.

http://www.terrylawless.com/resume.htm
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#2894064 - 12/05/17 08:27 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Synthoid]
ABECK Offline
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Originally Posted By: yannis D
Back in the day they used to hide him under the stage


Inexcusable.

Agreed. Foo fighters has their keys player visible, but positioned behind the guitar amps (the Killers do this too), that is somewhat better, but still quite lame IMHO.

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#2894067 - 12/05/17 08:58 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: CEB]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: CEB
Looks like he's still doing live shows on top studio and synth programming for the band.

http://www.terrylawless.com/resume.htm


Looking at his calendar - he had U2 Saturday Night Live on there. So he must have been playing, just offstage. So likely no tracks or else why have him there?
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894071 - 12/05/17 09:27 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
sherry Offline
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Seen the Who twice in the last three years. Keyboard players are right there on stage with the rest. But I have to say, the live cover band scene, keyboardists are being eliminated like the plague. In Chicago most cover bands use tracks to cover keys. Audience doesn't care and neither do the bands. Sad.


Edited by sherry (12/05/17 09:29 AM)

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#2894079 - 12/05/17 10:14 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: sherry]
GregC Offline
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Originally Posted By: sherry
In Chicago most cover bands use tracks to cover keys. Audience doesn't care and neither do the bands. Sad.


the Chicago band scene was as tough as a Chicago winter from my experience ( 70's)

I was tempted to switch to saxophone and busker on Michigan Avenue

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#2894084 - 12/05/17 10:32 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
sherry Offline
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Registered: 07/09/13
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Yeah, winter's here can be brutal. The largest cover band in my area use at least 50% tracks. They draw huge crowds. Keys all over the place, and absolutely NOBODY in the audience questions where is the piano sound coming from. Ugh. My band has opened up for them on numerous occasions, I just sit and listen to them, shake my head and go home.

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#2894105 - 12/05/17 12:17 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: sherry]
Iconoclast Offline
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Of all bands...YES, yes YES, had some keyboard parts played from offstage during the 90125 tour. I was horrified when I read that.
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#2894110 - 12/05/17 12:51 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Iconoclast]
GregC Offline
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We can't stop 'technology ' in music from being used. Its been part of the keyboard experience for 2 or 3 decades.

From my home studio experience the 'technology' gotten much easier and cheaper to take advantage of. And the marketing/distribution of the tools is within reach in practically every country on the planet.

I am not sure when the 'tipping point' was reached, in case anyone sees it that way.

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#2894112 - 12/05/17 12:57 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
Iconoclast Offline
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We're not paying for a magic show, we're paying for a performance.
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#2894115 - 12/05/17 01:26 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Iconoclast]
Tom Williams Offline
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  • In the 90s I used my trusty EPS-13-minus as my bassist and drummer. I only programmed parts that I could have covered live on drums or (key) bass.
  • I paid pretty good money to see ELP on their Black Moon tour. Years later I felt quite cheated when someone -- I think it was Will Alexander -- mentioned that they had used sequences out the wazoo "to give the audience the whole experience."
  • Just a few weeks ago I had to reminder my band's singer that if I can't play it, I don't want us to play it. Unless it's for an obvious gimmick (e.g., verse 1 of "The Way") I refuse to use a sequencer nor a track.
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#2894117 - 12/05/17 01:39 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Tom Williams]
timwat Offline
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As much as I loathe playing over tracks - at the end of the day that ship has already sailed. Getting indignant about it is about as effective as getting indignant about how online education is replacing classroom instruction...everything you can say may be true but the market has already declared what it wants.

Most audiences hear with their eyes. I wish it wasn't that way but that's the freakin' truth. They want an experience, they want a magic show and if they don't get one they change the "channel"...mentally, figuratively or actually.

There are exceptions, and genres where that's less the truth than in others...but it's always part of the truth. If they're going to pay and show up in person, they want to be entertained.

And the market has shifted in such a way that prerecorded to some degree is not the exception, it's the rule of the day. We may question or debate the relative percentage of live vs. memorex, and who feels cheated and who doesn't.

But the truth is the royalty / revenue structure has been decimated by streaming, no one cares anymore, and the mortgage is still a 30 year loan - which all means you got put butts in the seats, as many as possible, and to do that you gotta bring a great show at the most efficient cost. Which for many means rolling Pro Tools in the background.
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#2894119 - 12/05/17 01:46 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Tom Williams]
GregC Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom Williams

  • I paid pretty good money to see ELP on their Black Moon tour. Years later I felt quite cheated when someone -- I think it was Will Alexander -- mentioned that they had used sequences out the wazoo "to give the audience the whole experience." s to play it.


I have said 100's of times, history is important, in that there are lessons to absorb in the events of that time.

Here is a criticism of Black Moon:

"Black Moon is the eighth studio album, and the first in fourteen years, by progressive rock band Emerson, Lake & Palmer, released in 1992.

The track "Affairs of the Heart" originated in summer 1988 sessions by Lake with Geoff Downes under the project name Ride the Tiger.

The album received mixed reviews. It did not receive the acclaim of Tarkus or Brain Salad Surgery. AllMusic said of the album, "The original trio's first studio album in a dozen years suffers from the inevitable ageing and darkening of Lake's voice, and a lack of real impetus".

Was Alexander attempting to capture/simply recreate musical parts from Black Moon ?
It appears he was seeing the music from a larger, audience perspective.

lets also remember that the Beatles turned into a studio band, for some time, with Sargent Pepper.

The technology in the studio from past decades has become accessible to us for some time.

And could a big name band like ELP prosper for a long time based on a following of musicians and a core of aging loyal fans ?




Edited by GregC (12/05/17 01:47 PM)

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#2894138 - 12/05/17 02:46 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: wd8dky]
TAdorno Offline
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Originally Posted By: wd8dky
Wasn't The Who's keyboard player hidden in the back too? I thought I remember that from an older concert video.


Baba O'Rielly and WOnt get fooled again are always pre-recorded tracks.

When i saw the who at Shea Stadium (1983? "its hard" tour), Rabbit Bundrick could clearly be seen on stage. I missed the 89 Tommy tour, but the keys were onstage during the 90s Quadraphenia tour. I think Rabbit did the Face Dances tour. He hooked up with Pete for "Empty Glass" and I remember him saying he figured out how to do the "Sister Disco" sequence live. He did not do the WHo Are You tour. Did they do a tour for that one? Im not sure if they had a keyboard player live before that. Im not sure they did all of Quadraphenia live when it was released. They certainly did the late 60s Tommy shows without a keyboard player
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#2894154 - 12/05/17 03:35 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: TAdorno]
Happy Birthday CowboyNQ Offline
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I believe Ozzy hides his keys player off stage.

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#2894159 - 12/05/17 03:51 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: CowboyNQ]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: CowboyNQ
I believe Ozzy hides his keys player off stage.


So easily checked... snax

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#2894160 - 12/05/17 03:55 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Sven Golly]
Sven Golly Offline
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People, are we honestly having this discussion in 2017? Is it just a mass delusion that most KC members are suffering from, that audiences see things the way you, as keyboardists, do?

Frankly I think it's far sadder that we, who should be at the forefront of technology comprehension, are so stunned when that tech is used without having someone on stage pushing the buttons, because, at the end of the day, the vast majority of the audiences don't give a shit.

I saw Daryl Hall & John Oates earlier this year, with Tears For Fears opening. There was actually criticisms on social media from some "fans" that hated that H&O did alternate arrangements of hits.

Get over yourselves, people. The revolution came and went long ago, and it was televised, but you weren't paying attention. snax
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#2894165 - 12/05/17 04:28 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Sven Golly]
GregC Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
People, are we honestly having this discussion in 2017? Is it just a mass delusion that most KC members are suffering from, that audiences see things the way you, as keyboardists, do?

Get over yourselves, people. The revolution came and went long ago, and it was televised, but you weren't paying attention. snax


( ***sarcastic post warning **)

But but, but, Swen. I live in my own bubble world where nothing else matters.

And its all about me, at least, thats what I gather from Facebook.

Are you trying to tell me the world does not evolve around me ???

I am not prepared to conform, thats for sure !

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#2894166 - 12/05/17 04:34 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
RABid Offline
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I was using drum machines, then computers, then audio tracks in the 80's. Gave up my right to criticize anyone else about doing it.
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#2894167 - 12/05/17 04:58 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: RABid]
Ledbetter Offline
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Then the final iteration of U2 will be a guy playing old recordings and charging $80 a ticket, and that's the future we should prepare for?

I thought this was a musician's forum.

I remember trying to keep the sequencer and drummer in sync in the 80's and the rest of the band playing their best to make it seamless. This is not what's happening with many bands today. If I'm going to see karaoke, I can download the backing tracks and do that at home. I wouldn't call it a performance though.

The truth is audiences don't care, as stated above. Maybe that's our fault for accepting it as the future of "live music."
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#2894170 - 12/05/17 05:35 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Ledbetter]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ledbetter
Then the final iteration of U2 will be a guy playing old recordings and charging $80 a ticket, and that's the future we should prepare for?


Who said that? U2 still has all of its original members and we've now established that they use a live keyboard player (including at the SNL performance even if you didn't see him on TV). I don't think anybody has definitively determined whether they use tracks or not and if they do it would likely only be in some of the newer stuff since there's no reason why they couldn't cover the stuff that they always have without them.
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#2894171 - 12/05/17 05:46 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Ledbetter]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ledbetter
Then the final iteration of U2 will be a guy playing old recordings and charging $80 a ticket, and that's the future we should prepare for?


The words you're looking for is non sequitur. snax

Quote:
I thought this was a musician's forum.


Apparently you also thought it was a "piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining" forum. wink Honestly, how is this surprising to anyone, when U2 has been doing this for literally a quarter of a century?

Quote:
If I'm going to see karaoke, I can download the backing tracks and do that at home. I wouldn't call it a performance though.


A laudable attitude which nobody is denying you. You don't like it? Don't watch. Don't buy a ticket. Make music your own way. However, if this is one of the windmills you're choosing to tilt at in 2017, Don Quixote, you're WAY late to the party.


Quote:
The truth is audiences don't care, as stated above. Maybe that's our fault for accepting it as the future of "live music."


Whether you choose to accept it or not, it is what it is. Audiences have been conditioned to hear virtually the same sounds as on the record in a live situation. U2 fans also only know about 4 members in the band.

If you want to feel better, go check out Muse. Only 3 "members" in the band, but they have their utility guy (keys, percussion, guitar, vocals) on stage with the as well. One of the many reasons I love them, and that I've spent money on their CDs and DVDs and, get this, their concert tickets every time they come to town, and haven't bought (or even really listened) to anything by U2 since Zooropa in 1991.




Edited by Sven Golly (12/05/17 05:47 PM)
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#2894173 - 12/05/17 06:00 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: TAdorno]
Stokely Offline
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I freaking hate tracks. They make me glad I'm not a pro musician where I'd feel like I need them to keep up with...whatever madness makes people want to hear fake players I guess. Ugh.

I'm starting to see little club cover bands using them. Just gross.

Edit: I give a pass to sound fx and noodly keyboard parts like Eminence Front. That's about it though.


Edited by Stokely (12/05/17 06:01 PM)

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#2894181 - 12/05/17 06:42 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Stokely]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stokely
I give a pass to sound fx and noodly keyboard parts like Eminence Front. That's about it though.


That's your line, but what makes that somehow morally superior to somebody else's line? This argument comes up repeatedly and always leaves me shaking my head.

Is Delay ok? Technically, you aren't really playing all of the echoes. It's recording what you played and then playing it back....kind of like a...."TRACK"!

OK, but that's at least triggered by what you're playing. How about an arpeggiator, also triggered by the chords you're holding down. Some people would say that's not live playing either because you aren't actually playing the arpeggio. But others would argue that if that's how it was originally done, then that's how you should do it. I mean, if you're playing Human League's "Don't You Want Me Baby", are you going to hire a whole extra guy just to stand there and hammer out 1/16 note C's for the whole song? Would that make it better?

So if arpeggiators are OK, how about sequences? It's still coming out of the keyboard and you recorded all the notes and you're triggering it real time by hitting the play button. Well, for that matter, you're hitting the play button on tracks as well, they don't just start by themselves, you know.

And finally, I just find it funny that you can have a 4 or 5 piece band playing all of their parts that they should be playing live and performing well, singing well, etc but if you then add to that a backing track of some synth pad all of a sudden the whole thing is fake and not live anymore. It doesn't change anything anybody on stage is doing.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894182 - 12/05/17 07:06 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
Tom Williams Offline
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Posts: 647
Loc: West Virginia
I gotta say, it hit bottom with me at a festival this summer where the 3-piece (Guitar/Bass/Drums) band before us used sequences for brasses, keys, and backup vocals (Vocoder? Not sure; maybe audio in parallel to the MIDI...). The most talented musician was the drummer / sequencerist.

Then, amazingly, they used the sequencer to play a difficult bass solo while the bassist just sorta moved his fingers around, like Mike Nesmith playing the opening to Valleri.

Related: talent shows and open mic nights where the singer brings in the original song's MP3 -- which includes the original lead vocals -- sings with it, and hopes to be respected.
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#2894186 - 12/05/17 07:22 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Tom Williams]
J. Dan Offline
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Well I would agree that for me the line comes with actually faking it. If somebody uses a track for the horn section on one out of the 40 songs they do rather than hire a horn section for one song, fine. If they have guys standing up there all night pretending to play when they aren't, that's a whole different thing.

I don't even mind Karaoke - it's all about the singing. If the singer is good, it doesn't matter if they're singing in the shower, with a band, or karaoke, they're still a good singer. Now if they're using pitch correction or singing along with the lead track or faking it, I'm out.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894188 - 12/05/17 07:23 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Tom Williams]
waygetter Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 351
Loc: Sausalito, CA
For those of you who like to see the keyboards out front, here's a way to solve that problem - just have keyboards be the only instrument (besides drums). Like these guys





Edited by waygetter (12/05/17 07:25 PM)
Edit Reason: added video

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#2894189 - 12/05/17 07:24 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Sven Golly]
Happy Birthday CowboyNQ Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 06/14/15
Posts: 640
Loc: Adelaide, Australia
Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
Originally Posted By: CowboyNQ
I believe Ozzy hides his keys player off stage.


So easily checked... snax


It is indeed. http://www.laweekly.com/music/inside-the-strange-hidden-world-of-offstage-touring-musicians-6539027

My reason for bringing this to the thread was to add some evidence that this sort of thing is not entirely unusual. I believe John Sinclair and Adam Wakeman have both fulfilled this "offstage keys player" role for Ozzy.

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#2894203 - 12/05/17 09:52 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
S_Gould Offline
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Registered: 03/27/01
Posts: 1217
Loc: Port Charlotte ,FL,UNITED STAT...
At the end of this month I'm playing a gig (all originals) for the 1st time in almost a decade. There were a core of 4 musicians involved in the arranging and recording of the songs we're doing, and often up to 4 keyboard and 4 guitar tracks involved. We decided to arrange everything for the 4 of us, plus an acoustic guitarist (since there's acoustic on every track). I've never used an arpeggiator, sequencer or backing tracks on any performance.

I'm of two minds when it comes to major acts using backing tracks, etc. If there are iconic parts originally played by someone who is deceased, or otherwise no longer performs, I don't mind so much. If there are multiple tracks of studio overdubs which could easily be played by sidemen (whether hidden or on-stage) it kind of sticks in my craw.

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#2894204 - 12/05/17 09:55 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Synthoid]
Marzzz Offline
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Registered: 11/24/00
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Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Originally Posted By: rickzjamm
At that level U2 can afford a keyboardist, brass section & string quartet.
Probably wealthy enough to afford a small country by now. idk

Yes, they own Ireland...

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#2894208 - 12/05/17 10:56 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: S_Gould]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: S_Gould

I'm of two minds when it comes to major acts using backing tracks, etc. If there are iconic parts originally played by someone who is deceased, or otherwise no longer performs, I don't mind so much. If there are multiple tracks of studio overdubs which could easily be played by sidemen (whether hidden or on-stage) it kind of sticks in my craw.


I get what you're saying, but let me reiterate a finer point that I made earlier and bring it to the forefront. Since this thread was started regarding U2, I'll use them as an example. They started out with no keyboard player and no tracks. Everything live from the 4 of them as written and recorded. Later they added keys in the studio. They have a keyboard player playing live now in the concerts, even if he's offstage. Because he's ionly playing a fraction of the songs. So you could watch him on stage playing solitaire most of the night, or he could add parts that probably don't really fit unless they change the songs around, which fans don't wanna hear, or he can just play on the few songs that need keys, do it live, just not seen. He's got the gig either way, and it's live either way. Now I still haven't heard any proof of tracks with U2 but I suspect it's possible with the later stuff as they continurped to do more in the studio. So what would you have them do? Defy the laws of hoy sick to allow for vocal distortion in a concert venue without feedback (as an example)? Again, suppose 5% of the songs have a track with some sort of weird vocal effects, maybe a little percussion loop and some samples....so what? You gonna bring on a team to stand there all night and then trigger some samples on a few songs? Would that make them better? Is that what you went to see, or did you go to hear Bono hit the high notes on Pride and Edge do the syncopated rhythms on guitar?

As for local bands, around here most the bands that use tracks do it because there aren't enough talented keyboard players. I turn down a few full time gigs per year, minimum. I see some of those bands give up and go to tracks. They don't want to do it.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894234 - 12/06/17 06:58 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
[quote=S_Gould]

As for local bands, around here most the bands that use tracks do it because there aren't enough talented keyboard players. I turn down a few full time gigs per year, minimum. I see some of those bands give up and go to tracks. They don't want to do it.


There are talented keyboard players out there, at least in my urban area, but they are driven by more lucrative economic interests, such as a ( corporate) job that pays $100,000 per year. If they are raising a family, there is little spare time.

And bands are also driven by economic interests. If they can get by by not having a keyboardist, they will certainly do some tracks, and take advantage of technology.

Similar to numerous careers in the cold corporate world, technology eliminates jobs and careers. This has been going on/accelerating for almost 20 years.

If you are involved in a career in this downward economic spiral, your skill and talent ( which is considerable) has been marginalized.

And this shit happens every day to possibly millions of workers.

The economics is that big bad picture I always bring up. If you are hoping to make some decent money in a career, you should look at the underlying economics. Economically, you are forced into hard choices.

I find it painful to see fine tuned keyboard skills marginalized by fickle bands. And name groups that shove the keyboard player into a shadow in back of the stage, out of sight of the ' performers'. I suppose some might be trying to find a better gig and see it as a step to something. Other than that, screw it. Its not for me.





Edited by GregC (12/06/17 07:18 AM)

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#2894289 - 12/06/17 11:45 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 2221
Loc: NYC area
We're all so high on technology except when it interferes with our purist views of how live music is made.

Put me underneath a stage with U2 or some other major act, and assuming it pays a fair wage you will see me with a big smile on my face.

And as far as adding parts to reproduce what was on a record – maybe it's the band that wants it that way, and they're not doing it only because "that's what the audience wants to hear."

And imo this is completely different from faking it to a sequence. Not the same thing by any stretch. That's just plain sad.

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#2894298 - 12/06/17 12:18 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Reezekeys]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
We're all so high on technology except when it interferes with our purist views of how live music is made.

Put me underneath a stage with U2 or some other major act, and assuming it pays a fair wage you will see me with a big smile on my face.



I like your 1st point.

To me, its not primarily about the money. I understand you need to be compensated.
IOW, I don't have the mercenary approach ( as long as one is paid so what) if it involves putting me out of sight.

I am not as impressed with rubbing elbows with U2 if thats the ' gig '. That is essentially
a fan sentiment vs having a musical role.

And i feel its not worth bragging about, either.

Different strokes, etc, etc.

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#2894364 - 12/06/17 06:02 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
waygetter Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 351
Loc: Sausalito, CA
I personally like the offstage gigs. Oh yeah... have a nice little room, got your boards set up, play a little bit here and there. Got the big screen TV going, the laptop, the iPad, got some pizza, some beers, a milkshake. Get a little foot massage going, watch some Gilligan's Island reruns, play a few parts, get back to the couch, a little Facebook, some KC posts. What could be better? thu

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#2894378 - 12/06/17 07:25 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
waygetter Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 351
Loc: Sausalito, CA
Originally Posted By: GregC
There are talented keyboard players out there, at least in my urban area, but they are driven by more lucrative economic interests, such as a ( corporate) job that pays $100,000 per year.

FYI... $100,000 in the Bay Area is considered low income
Sxi figures is low income

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#2894390 - 12/06/17 09:56 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: waygetter]
J. Dan Offline
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Yeah, the cost of living is so much ridiculously less around here, it's like night and day. 15 yrs ago I bought my 3 story, 5 bedroom, 3-1/2 bath house with a yard and off street parking near Forest Park, the zoo, etc for $199k. I'm guessing in the Bay Area that would buy me a guest room over somebody's garage. I remember once figuring out that rent for a 400 sq ft apartment in Manhattan was roughly the same as my mortgage.

Anyway, even as a weekend warrior, there are good opportunities for keyboard players around here. I used to pull in an extra $40k/yr just doing local Friday and Saturday nights - mostly bars. Had to give it up due to schedule after the divorce. I know local cover bands that aren't even tributes pulling $60-70k each which around here is enough that if you supplement it teaching lessons and doing some side projects can support a modest living.

But again, I think at least here (which admittedly is not representative of other places) keys are appreciated and in demand. Folks here recognize that bands use tracks and generally chastise them for it though it doesn't keep them away. In fact sometimes I've run into problems where people assume we're using tracks because it sounds too good and you have to assure them you aren't. But St. Louis is maybe unique. Some would say we're just behind the rest of the country, that eventually we'll be as musically illiterate and DJ focussed as the rest of the country....as if that's a good thing and we're somehow backwoods or something because we still appreciate live music.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894391 - 12/06/17 10:08 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
mate stubb Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 15591
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
But St. Louis is maybe unique. Some would say we're just behind the rest of the country, that eventually we'll be as musically illiterate and DJ focussed as the rest of the country....as if that's a good thing and we're somehow backwoods or something because we still appreciate live music.


All hail KSHE!
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#2894397 - 12/06/17 10:34 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: mate stubb]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: mate stubb
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
But St. Louis is maybe unique. Some would say we're just behind the rest of the country, that eventually we'll be as musically illiterate and DJ focussed as the rest of the country....as if that's a good thing and we're somehow backwoods or something because we still appreciate live music.


All hail KSHE!


You know I have to think that KSHE is actually a big part of it. I mean they are sponsoring trivpbute bands that are selling out outdoor amphitheaters, arenas, etc. longest running station in the country of same format. Not to be underestimated.
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Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894398 - 12/06/17 10:34 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: mate stubb]
MathOfInsects Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2723
Loc: California
I just found some fan video from a mainstage show this summer. Five-piece band including the singer, who is the Artist In Charge. Most of the video is on the AIC, as it should be. But the guy who took it, panned across the stage to show the whole band. The set-up was: Me, bass player sorta off my left elbow, AIC, drummer, guitarist.

The pan showed: Bass player, BL, drummer, guitarist.

#sigh
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#2894399 - 12/06/17 10:36 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MathOfInsects]
J. Dan Offline
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Control the video. My last band, I set up the camera on me, lol!!!! Not joking. Also, when I was BL, the guys I hired to shoot video knew they better include the guy who hired them.
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Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894402 - 12/06/17 10:44 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Registered: 02/04/15
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No, I don't need vid of me. I was just noting the attention of the guy who shot that vid. EBK. Everyone But Keyboardist.
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#2894404 - 12/06/17 10:49 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MathOfInsects]
J. Dan Offline
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Registered: 07/25/08
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Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
No, I don't need vid of me. I was just noting the attention of the guy who shot that vid. EBK. Everyone But Keyboardist.


I would like to see video of you, I'm starting to doubt that you actually exist. I've been hearing a lot lately about AI.
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Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894406 - 12/06/17 10:53 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2723
Loc: California
I posted one a week or two ago. It's up in the Shameless Plugs.
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#2894409 - 12/06/17 10:58 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MathOfInsects]
fjzingo Offline
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Registered: 01/26/04
Posts: 1063
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
It’s not the first time in history the musicians are stashed behind a curtain or in a room, aristocrats and royals used to stash the musicians in a small room adjacent to where the party was with holes to let the music sip out. The original loudspeaker with a musician in it.......it’s just entertainement.
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#2894418 - 12/07/17 02:01 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 2221
Loc: NYC area
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
We're all so high on technology except when it interferes with our purist views of how live music is made.

Put me underneath a stage with U2 or some other major act, and assuming it pays a fair wage you will see me with a big smile on my face.



I like your 1st point.

To me, its not primarily about the money. I understand you need to be compensated.
IOW, I don't have the mercenary approach ( as long as one is paid so what) if it involves putting me out of sight.

I didn't communicate clearly. I didn't mean to imply that being offstage vs onstage was in any way tied to what my compensation was. I'm assuming that any gig that would have me hidden under a stage with a major touring act would pay a fair wage. That's what would put the smile on face (along with playing music I like of course!) Whether I'm on or offstage doesn't matter to me one bit – that's all my poorly-worded aside was trying to say.

Originally Posted By: GregC
I am not as impressed with rubbing elbows with U2 if thats the ' gig '. That is essentially
a fan sentiment vs having a musical role.

And i feel its not worth bragging about, either.

Different strokes, etc, etc.

I hear you, I'm not one to toot my own horn either but if I got the gig with U2 I wouldn't be keeping it a secret – and I'll hazard that you or anybody else wouldn't either!

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#2894421 - 12/07/17 02:23 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Reezekeys]
Markay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2719
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys

I hear you, I'm not one to toot my own horn either but if I got the gig with U2 I wouldn't be keeping it a secret – and I'll hazard that you or anybody else wouldn't either!


Well if you ever get the gig and need a sub I'm up for it. I'll even wear full cover up including a balaclava and fingerless gloves so the audience think its you under the stage. I can even press play if they need a contemporary multi instrumentalist.
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#2894429 - 12/07/17 03:53 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: waygetter]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: waygetter
I personally like the offstage gigs. Oh yeah... have a nice little room, got your boards set up, play a little bit here and there. Got the big screen TV going, the laptop, the iPad, got some pizza, some beers, a milkshake. Get a little foot massage going, watch some Gilligan's Island reruns, play a few parts, get back to the couch, a little Facebook, some KC posts. What could be better? thu


don't forget the parade of attractive women stopping by to admire your keyboard rig.
And the inexpensive supply of mind shaping substances in case the gig gets a little boring wink

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#2894430 - 12/07/17 03:54 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: fjzingo]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: fjzingo
It’s not the first time in history the musicians are stashed behind a curtain or in a room, aristocrats and royals used to stash the musicians in a small room adjacent to where the party was with holes to let the music sip out. The original loudspeaker with a musician in it.......it’s just entertainement.


We have learned so much from history . Assuming we can remember smile

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#2894431 - 12/07/17 03:56 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: waygetter]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: waygetter
Originally Posted By: GregC
There are talented keyboard players out there, at least in my urban area, but they are driven by more lucrative economic interests, such as a ( corporate) job that pays $100,000 per year.

FYI... $100,000 in the Bay Area is considered low income
Sxi figures is low income


I am so shocked.

Where's the justice ? wink

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#2894498 - 12/07/17 09:24 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
kpl1228 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 157
Loc: New Mexico
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: sherry
In Chicago most cover bands use tracks to cover keys. Audience doesn't care and neither do the bands. Sad.


the Chicago band scene was as tough as a Chicago winter from my experience ( 70's)

I was tempted to switch to saxophone and busker on Michigan Avenue


In the 80's in Chicago it was no better. If you wanted to play a hotel or club circuit full-time, well, we played from 10PM till 4 AM (6 hrs because of the region's liberal liquor license laws) 6 nights a week. (Yeah, I said 4 AM). And if you didn't want the gig because of the hours, there were a lot of starving musicians in Chicagoland that would jump on it.
Not a lot happening at the Harvey or Waukegan Holiday Inns on a Tuesday at 2 or 3 am. For us musicians, it was like working as an employee at the Mustang Ranch. Soul crushing, and like a marathon to the finish line. Every night. And then there was the night the club owner refused to pay us extra when we "lost an hour" during Daylight Savings Time in the fall ("hey you guys, it's in the contract") and we played SEVEN hours that night.
I have few good memories of my short time living in Chicago, mostly due to the musician crap such as this. Murph and the Magictones at The Armada Room, indeed.

Regarding keyboardists onstage, many of my fellow weekend warriors have gone to backing tracks or Pro Tools or similar. One less guy to pay. But most barflies don't care at all.


Edited by kpl1228 (12/07/17 09:28 AM)

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#2894525 - 12/07/17 10:07 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: kpl1228]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: kpl1228
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: sherry
In Chicago most cover bands use tracks to cover keys. Audience doesn't care and neither do the bands. Sad.


the Chicago band scene was as tough as a Chicago winter from my experience ( 70's)

I was tempted to switch to saxophone and busker on Michigan Avenue


In the 80's in Chicago it was no better. If you wanted to play a hotel or club circuit full-time, well, we played from 10PM till 4 AM (6 hrs because of the region's liberal liquor license laws) 6 nights a week. (Yeah, I said 4 AM). And if you didn't want the gig because of the hours, there were a lot of starving musicians in Chicagoland that would jump on it.
Not a lot happening at the Harvey or Waukegan Holiday Inns on a Tuesday at 2 or 3 am. For us musicians, it was like working as an employee at the Mustang Ranch. Soul crushing, and like a marathon to the finish line. Every night. And then there was the night the club owner refused to pay us extra when we "lost an hour" during Daylight Savings Time in the fall ("hey you guys, it's in the contract") and we played SEVEN hours that night.
I have few good memories of my short time living in Chicago, mostly due to the musician crap such as this. Murph and the Magictones at The Armada Room, indeed.

Regarding keyboardists onstage, many of my fellow weekend warriors have gone to backing tracks or Pro Tools or similar. One less guy to pay. But most barflies don't care at all.


I have some soul crushing experiences but they are worth forgetting.

I moved to SF in '78 as my first business job out of college created a better job opportuntity- I jumped on it and never looked back.

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#2894782 - 12/08/17 09:11 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: sherry]
elsongs Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/15/11
Posts: 258
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: sherry
Seen the Who twice in the last three years. Keyboard players are right there on stage with the rest. But I have to say, the live cover band scene, keyboardists are being eliminated like the plague. In Chicago most cover bands use tracks to cover keys. Audience doesn't care and neither do the bands. Sad.


I see this EVERYWHERE. The ones I hate the most are '80s cover bands that play the same cliche '80s hits and have the audacity to play synth-heavy tunes WITHOUT a visible keyboard player (Yes, all synth parts are on backing tracks). Grrr...

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#2894801 - 12/09/17 07:08 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: elsongs]
MotiDave Offline
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Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 1548
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
Originally Posted By: elsongs
Originally Posted By: sherry
Seen the Who twice in the last three years. Keyboard players are right there on stage with the rest. But I have to say, the live cover band scene, keyboardists are being eliminated like the plague. In Chicago most cover bands use tracks to cover keys. Audience doesn't care and neither do the bands. Sad.


I see this EVERYWHERE. The ones I hate the most are '80s cover bands that play the same cliche '80s hits and have the audacity to play synth-heavy tunes WITHOUT a visible keyboard player (Yes, all synth parts are on backing tracks). Grrr...

Agree, thats just rude.
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#2894803 - 12/09/17 07:21 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: elsongs]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: elsongs
Originally Posted By: sherry
Seen the Who twice in the last three years. Keyboard players are right there on stage with the rest. But I have to say, the live cover band scene, keyboardists are being eliminated like the plague. In Chicago most cover bands use tracks to cover keys. Audience doesn't care and neither do the bands. Sad.


I see this EVERYWHERE. The ones I hate the most are '80s cover bands that play the same cliche '80s hits and have the audacity to play synth-heavy tunes WITHOUT a visible keyboard player (Yes, all synth parts are on backing tracks). Grrr...


I agree. We should all boycott Korg, Roland, casio, Yamaha, etc for ruining potential keyboard gig employment. And refuse to buy any of their products.

after all, we must stand for our principles, correct ? Or do we stand by and hold our noses and make disapproving noises ?

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#2894817 - 12/09/17 09:12 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Tom Williams]
BuckW Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 127
Originally Posted By: Tom Williams
I gotta say, it hit bottom with me at a festival this summer where the 3-piece (Guitar/Bass/Drums) band before us used sequences for brasses, keys, and backup vocals (Vocoder? Not sure; maybe audio in parallel to the MIDI...). The most talented musician was the drummer / sequencerist.

Then, amazingly, they used the sequencer to play a difficult bass solo while the bassist just sorta moved his fingers around, like Mike Nesmith playing the opening to Valleri.

Related: talent shows and open mic nights where the singer brings in the original song's MP3 -- which includes the original lead vocals -- sings with it, and hopes to be respected.


Welcome to the planet of the Monkees; and if were don't like it, like Charlton Heston, all we can do is pound sand.

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#2894826 - 12/09/17 10:10 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
MotiDave Offline
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Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 1548
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: elsongs
Originally Posted By: sherry
Seen the Who twice in the last three years. Keyboard players are right there on stage with the rest. But I have to say, the live cover band scene, keyboardists are being eliminated like the plague. In Chicago most cover bands use tracks to cover keys. Audience doesn't care and neither do the bands. Sad.


I see this EVERYWHERE. The ones I hate the most are '80s cover bands that play the same cliche '80s hits and have the audacity to play synth-heavy tunes WITHOUT a visible keyboard player (Yes, all synth parts are on backing tracks). Grrr...


I agree. We should all boycott Korg, Roland, casio, Yamaha, etc for ruining potential keyboard gig employment. And refuse to buy any of their products.

after all, we must stand for our principles, correct ? Or do we stand by and hold our noses and make disapproving noises ?


not following your snarky retort. he said he dislikes certain bands that backtrack the entire keyboard player. I do too - its a rude insult to keyboardists. you don't see a live band with just a keyboardist and drumnmer - with the vocals, guitar and bass backtracked, do you? (excluding boy bands now). no, not really.

But why did you jump straight to keyboard manufacturers? These bands don't have keyboardists playing in the green room or behind a curtain. and they aren't running sequencers on keyboards off stage. they recorded tracks on digital media. they are running an mp3 player with the mixed tracks channel fed to FOH and the synch'd click track channel fed to drummer's ear. it has nothing to do with Korg, Yamaha or Roland - one can record literally anything nowadays. if you record a guitarist and then play it back as a track, should we go ban guitar makers? makes no sense.

maybe you should boycott the manufacturers of microphones, A/D converters, digital recorders and memory and mp3 playback machines? add in those f__kers who make software to mix down multiple recorded tracks to a single channel while adding a second channel with a click track. that could include everyone from DAW developers, Microsoft, Dell, Apple ... etc.

you've got alot of boycotting to do before you ever get to a keyboard manufacturer. better get started ...


Edited by MotiDave (12/09/17 10:12 AM)
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#2894833 - 12/09/17 11:01 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MotiDave]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: MotiDave
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: elsongs
[quote=sherry]Seen the Who twice in the last three years. Keyboard players are right there on stage with the rest. But I have to say, the live cover band scene, keyboardists are being eliminated like the plague. In Chicago most cover bands use tracks to cover keys. Audience doesn't care and neither do the bands. Sad.


I see this EVERYWHERE. The ones I hate the most are '80s cover bands that play the same cliche '80s hits and have the audacity to play synth-heavy tunes WITHOUT a visible keyboard player (Yes, all synth parts are on backing tracks). Grrr...


I agree. We should all boycott Korg, Roland, casio, Yamaha, etc for ruining potential keyboard gig employment. And refuse to buy any of their products.

after all, we must stand for our principles, correct ? Or do we stand by and hold our noses and make disapproving noises ?


not following your snarky retort. he said he dislikes certain bands that backtrack the entire keyboard player. I do too - its a rude insult to keyboardists. you don't see a live band with just a keyboardist and drumnmer - with the vocals, guitar and bass backtracked, do you? (excluding boy bands now). no, not really.

1) But why did you jump straight to keyboard manufacturers? These bands don't have keyboardists playing in the green room or behind a curtain. and they aren't running sequencers on keyboards off stage.

2) they recorded tracks on digital media. they are running an mp3 player with the mixed tracks channel fed to FOH and the synch'd click track channel fed to drummer's ear. it has nothing to do with Korg, Yamaha or Roland - one can record literally anything nowadays. if you record a guitarist and then play it back as a track, should we go ban guitar makers? makes no sense.

3)maybe you should boycott the manufacturers of microphones, A/D converters, digital recorders and memory and mp3 playback machines? add in those f__kers who make software to mix down multiple recorded tracks to a single channel while adding a second channel with a click track. that could include everyone from DAW developers, Microsoft, Dell, Apple ... etc.

4)you've got alot of boycotting to do before you ever get to a keyboard manufacturer. better get started ... [/quote]

I see that. Lets not look at the bigger picture wink

1) Why not pick on the big boys. Who started all the SEQ's, + 15 yrs ago. Who continues putting SEQ's in their products ? I suppose thats not relevant, if you blink bother eyes and rub them

2) all of these track bands ? Some of them ? What about the big venue bands ? Do they track on $10 media players. No, they do not.

3) Be my guest. Think big or go home

4) I can tell you are on board. Of course, I jest. Its far too late. Everyone likes
their toys.

BTW, I know zero will change with bands using tracks. Because there is lots of ' following ' going on. "Following ' is cheap. And convenient.

Lets not connect the dots. Only some of them wink


Edited by GregC (12/09/17 11:23 AM)

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#2894836 - 12/09/17 11:16 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
Ledbetter Offline
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Registered: 09/26/14
Posts: 216
Loc: California
There's no use debating whether this is the future: it clearly is. I'm getting the kind of vibe the horn and string players must have gotten in the 80's. Fewer musicians will be employed, the performance will become further detached from humanity, no one cares, and it's a slippery slope there's no going back from.

Maybe in fifty years, audiences will realize what's been lost. Meanwhile, it's probably the worst time since the invention to be a piano teacher.

I'm not challenging anyone's way of performing, just lamenting what is being lost.
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#2894856 - 12/09/17 12:30 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Ledbetter]
J. Dan Offline
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Wow. DUDES, what's the real issue fueling all this anger. Is anybody here looking for a gig and can't find one? If not, then.....

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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894858 - 12/09/17 12:42 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2723
Loc: California
I've got to find that fan vid, it's almost comical the lengths that guy went to to avoid showing the keyboard player.
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#2894860 - 12/09/17 01:09 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MathOfInsects]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2723
Loc: California
You know that poster MotiDave? It seems like every time I post here, he posts next calling me sexy or something. Not that there's anything wrong with that, yoga has really improved my butt, who can blame someone for noticing. Anyway, I was just curious if this had ever happened to anyone else. Sorry for the hijack, it's just been hard to live alone with my burden.
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#2894862 - 12/09/17 01:48 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MathOfInsects]
MotiDave Offline
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Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 1548
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
OK, found it. The guy was right in front of the guitar amp, so you hear mostly guitar. I was loud FOH, but not on stage, so you have to strain to hear me here. This is actually a specifically organ-heavy song. I was set up right at the bass player's right elbow, and downstage from him--"U" style around the BL. Much of that time you see the bass player looking off kind of to the right, that's us communicating about stops and stuff. Watch the pan at the beginning of the video. Keyboard player? What keyboard player?



I can hear you. your stylings are sexy and soulful, dig it. her voice is even sexier - love that soulful sh!t and truth to all i generally do not like the blues as it bores me. but this - this works for me. dig it!

but hang on here - you're on stage, theoretically visible to the audience (not filming this video) so technically your sexiness doesn't even belong in this thread discussion.
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#2894866 - 12/09/17 02:01 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
MotiDave Offline
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Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 1548
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
Originally Posted By: GregC
I see that. Lets not look at the bigger picture wink

1) Why not pick on the big boys. Who started all the SEQ's, + 15 yrs ago. Who continues putting SEQ's in their products ? I suppose thats not relevant, if you blink bother eyes and rub them

2) all of these track bands ? Some of them ? What about the big venue bands ? Do they track on $10 media players. No, they do not.

3) Be my guest. Think big or go home

4) I can tell you are on board. Of course, I jest. Its far too late. Everyone likes
their toys.

BTW, I know zero will change with bands using tracks. Because there is lots of ' following ' going on. "Following ' is cheap. And convenient.

Lets not connect the dots. Only some of them wink


i still don't know why you're singling out keyboard manufacturers for the rampant use of backing tracks. nothing you just added helps with that confusion.

you blame integration of sequencers in keyboards (intended mainly for composers) for today's use of backing tracks by bands that do not bring a keyboardist at all? you blinked and rubbed your eyes and this is what happened?

well I don't know about all that but I do know more than a few bands that have backing tracks. None of them use a keyboard sequencer.
it would be hard for them to do so as they didn't bring a keyboardist who has this sequencer!

they also don't record the keys tracks on internal sequencers either - they record them to a DAW.

yeah, still makes no sense. dots are dots. ok. have a good one, Greg.
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#2894868 - 12/09/17 02:22 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MotiDave]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: MotiDave
Originally Posted By: GregC
I see that. Lets not look at the bigger picture wink

1) Why not pick on the big boys. Who started all the SEQ's, + 15 yrs ago. Who continues putting SEQ's in their products ? I suppose thats not relevant, if you blink bother eyes and rub them

2) all of these track bands ? Some of them ? What about the big venue bands ? Do they track on $10 media players. No, they do not.

3) Be my guest. Think big or go home

4) I can tell you are on board. Of course, I jest. Its far too late. Everyone likes
their toys.

BTW, I know zero will change with bands using tracks. Because there is lots of ' following ' going on. "Following ' is cheap. And convenient.

Lets not connect the dots. Only some of them wink


1) i still don't know why you're singling out keyboard manufacturers for the rampant use of backing tracks. nothing you just added helps with that confusion.

you blame integration of sequencers in keyboards (intended mainly for composers) for today's use of backing tracks by bands that do not bring a keyboardist at all? you blinked and rubbed your eyes and this is what happened?

well I don't know about all that but I do know more than a few bands that have backing tracks. None of them use a keyboard sequencer.
it would be hard for them to do so as they didn't bring a keyboardist who has this sequencer!

2)they also don't record the keys tracks on internal sequencers either - they record them to a DAW.

yeah, still makes no sense. dots are dots. ok. have a good one, Greg.


this has been fun. I won't persist with any more dots. I happen to enjoy recording keyboard tracks. They are fun as hell. But I guess the mantra by some is they are evil if they find their way on stage.

Lets debate about something from 2017 or 2018 next time smile

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#2894873 - 12/09/17 02:49 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MotiDave]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 2221
Loc: NYC area
On the flip side of the coin for those complaining that keyboardists aren't getting the attention other band members get – I spoke to a sax player that was fired from his club date (function, wedding, corporate etc.) band because... he looked too old. And in the New York club date FB group I frequent, there are sometimes calls put out for "youthful", "high energy" singers or sax players. Makes me happy to be a keyboardist that can disappear into the background!

And yea, technology puts people out of work – it's always been like that, and in many more professions than just music. In other news, fire is hot. I agree with Sven... Joe & Jane Q Public don't give a shit, never have, never will. I like this quote from Frank Zappa's autobiography:

“So, if music is the best, what is music? Anything can be music, but it doesn't become music until someone wills it to be music, and the audience listening to it decides to perceive it as music.

Most people can't deal with that abstraction -- or don't want to. They say: "Gimme the tune. Do I like this tune? Does it sound like another tune that I like? The more familiar it is, the better I like it. Hear those three notes there? Those are the three notes I can sing along with. I like those notes very, very much. Give me a beat. Not a fancy one. Give me a GOOD BEAT -- something I can dance to. It has to go boom-bap, boom-boom-BAP. If it doesn't, I will hate it very, very much. Also, I want it right away -- and then, write me some more songs like that -- over and over and over again, because I'm really into music.”

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#2894891 - 12/09/17 04:42 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Reezekeys]
J. Dan Offline
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Registered: 07/25/08
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Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
I spoke to a sax player that was fired from his club date (function, wedding, corporate etc.) band because... he looked too old. And in the New York club date FB group I frequent, there are sometimes calls put out for "youthful", "high energy" singers or sax players.


I had a younger bass player, whom I had played with a couple times when we were both filling in with the same band, call me about a project he was putting together. I had to turn it down due to my schedule, but suggested a few other keyboard players I know. He said he was looking for somebody younger. I laughed and said "how old do you think I am?" (all of the guys I mentioned were my age). He guessed about 10 years younger.

Regardless of how old you ACTUALLY are, it IS important how you look on stage, like it or not. I dye my beard, cover my bald head, and dress young, and apparently it works. Live music is visual as much as it's audible.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894894 - 12/09/17 05:17 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 2221
Loc: NYC area
Sure, I understand - "it's not personal, it's strictly business." smile I'm genetically blessed with my maternal grandfather's hair - which he kept his whole life. It has some grey but I'm not going with the grecian formula. I do believe that a front person - singer or horn player – is more apt to feel the pressure to remain young-looking than my anonymous self sitting behind my keyboard. But that's kinda moot right now - I'm not really in the circuit of gigs where anyone's employment opportunities are determined by a large margin on their looks. That's probably a good thing!

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#2894898 - 12/09/17 05:23 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
MotiDave Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 1548
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: MotiDave
Originally Posted By: GregC
I see that. Lets not look at the bigger picture wink

1) Why not pick on the big boys. Who started all the SEQ's, + 15 yrs ago. Who continues putting SEQ's in their products ? I suppose thats not relevant, if you blink bother eyes and rub them

2) all of these track bands ? Some of them ? What about the big venue bands ? Do they track on $10 media players. No, they do not.

3) Be my guest. Think big or go home

4) I can tell you are on board. Of course, I jest. Its far too late. Everyone likes
their toys.

BTW, I know zero will change with bands using tracks. Because there is lots of ' following ' going on. "Following ' is cheap. And convenient.

Lets not connect the dots. Only some of them wink


1) i still don't know why you're singling out keyboard manufacturers for the rampant use of backing tracks. nothing you just added helps with that confusion.

you blame integration of sequencers in keyboards (intended mainly for composers) for today's use of backing tracks by bands that do not bring a keyboardist at all? you blinked and rubbed your eyes and this is what happened?

well I don't know about all that but I do know more than a few bands that have backing tracks. None of them use a keyboard sequencer.
it would be hard for them to do so as they didn't bring a keyboardist who has this sequencer!

2)they also don't record the keys tracks on internal sequencers either - they record them to a DAW.

yeah, still makes no sense. dots are dots. ok. have a good one, Greg.


this has been fun. I won't persist with any more dots. I happen to enjoy recording keyboard tracks. They are fun as hell. But I guess the mantra by some is they are evil if they find their way on stage.

Lets debate about something from 2017 or 2018 next time smile

I don’t know, G - you seem nice but then you keep numbering the sentences in my posts. Its sort of intimidating, like the line numbers on a court filing smile
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#2894905 - 12/09/17 06:36 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MotiDave]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: MotiDave


Lets debate about something from 2017 or 2018 next time smile

I don’t know, G - you seem nice but then you keep numbering the sentences in my posts. Its sort of intimidating, like the line numbers on a court filing smile[/quote]

Hi Dave, no worries. I sometimes do a little wind up on a topic. The numbering bit is to organize the thought process. I know, its annoying. I don't like court stuff, either.

Did you make a move on the FA ? I won't harass you or anyone for using the SEQ wink

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#2894920 - 12/09/17 09:40 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Reezekeys]
MathOfInsects Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2723
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Sure, I understand - "it's not personal, it's strictly business." smile I'm genetically blessed with my maternal grandfather's hair - which he kept his whole life. It has some grey but I'm not going with the grecian formula. I do believe that a front person - singer or horn player – is more apt to feel the pressure to remain young-looking than my anonymous self sitting behind my keyboard. But that's kinda moot right now - I'm not really in the circuit of gigs where anyone's employment opportunities are determined by a large margin on their looks. That's probably a good thing!


Same, it appears I'll be keeping my hair, and so far it's still got more pepper than salt. My mother's father never went all the way gray, so we'll see. If I get enough sleep, I look younger than I am, so I'm not a complete drag to have on the bandstand yet. But I'm hitting an age when even "younger than I am," is pretty ancient.
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#2894921 - 12/09/17 09:42 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MathOfInsects]
J. Dan Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 11316
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Screw you guys with all your.......hair, and......hair color, and......whatever. Screw you!

roll
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Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894924 - 12/09/17 10:12 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MotiDave]
MathOfInsects Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2723
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: MotiDave
I can hear you. your stylings are sexy and soulful, dig it. her voice is even sexier - love that soulful sh!t and truth to all i generally do not like the blues as it bores me. but this - this works for me. dig it!

but hang on here - you're on stage, theoretically visible to the audience (not filming this video) so technically your sexiness doesn't even belong in this thread discussion.


Ha! You're right. I was following up on an earlier post. But I made it a separate post so I could delete it, and now you (and now I) have responded to it and it can't be deleted, so I am going to have to think of something creative to do with that post instead.
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#2894929 - 12/09/17 11:18 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: wd8dky]
#%$(# Offline
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Registered: 04/21/13
Posts: 4954
Loc: Orlando, Florida
Originally Posted By: wd8dky
Playing to backing tracks, or triggering samples/loops live? There's a difference...


It's a sampled loop. A 4 minute one. Triggered right at the beginning of the song.

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#2894932 - 12/10/17 12:25 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: #%$(#]
MathOfInsects Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2723
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: #%$(#
Originally Posted By: wd8dky
Playing to backing tracks, or triggering samples/loops live? There's a difference...


It's a sampled loop. A 4 minute one. Triggered right at the beginning of the song.


Wait, by the time that loop ended, wouldn't the song already be ov---ooohhhhh....
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#2894944 - 12/10/17 04:52 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
dje31 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/09/13
Posts: 189
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
Screw you guys with all your.......hair, and......hair color, and......whatever. Screw you!

roll


I feel you, Dan. I tell folks, "I can grow hair, pretty much anywhere on on me...the exception being my head."

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#2894948 - 12/10/17 05:31 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: #%$(#]
BuckW Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 127
Hard to believe key players are getting hidden more than bass players.

I mean really; do all bass players look like pedophiles or do all pedophiles look like bass players?

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#2894961 - 12/10/17 07:31 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
MotiDave Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 1548
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: MotiDave


Lets debate about something from 2017 or 2018 next time smile

I don’t know, G - you seem nice but then you keep numbering the sentences in my posts. Its sort of intimidating, like the line numbers on a court filing smile


Hi Dave, no worries. I sometimes do a little wind up on a topic. The numbering bit is to organize the thought process. I know, its annoying. I don't like court stuff, either.

Did you make a move on the FA ? I won't harass you or anyone for using the SEQ wink [/quote]

Hey G - first thing, i’m just having a lil fun, i don’t mean to harass anyone. Sometimes things sound funny in my head that the world just doen’t quite get. I didn’t do the FA yet. Still thinking about it - don’t have a reall need right now and I wanted to blow my wife and kids away with Xmas joy. My Yamaha’s are programmed to deliver my current sets.

A musician asked me to join another band. They do a lot of 70s and 80s rock hits the FA would compliment the Yamaha’s very nicely. Not sure i’ll do it though, i don’t know i have the bandwidth for another band. I told him i was flattered but unsure i have the time - we’d talk after NY but please go ahead and keep looking for someone else in the meantime.
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#2894962 - 12/10/17 07:32 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: BuckW]
MotiDave Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 1548
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
Originally Posted By: BuckW
Hard to believe key players are getting hidden more than bass players.

I mean really; do all bass players look like pedophiles or do all pedophiles look like bass players?
confused
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(X-stand at home, for sitting self-practice)

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#2896254 - 12/16/17 11:32 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MotiDave]
RudyS Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 2009
Loc: Groningen, The netherlands
I am watching queen live at wembley ‘86. Keyboard player is stuffed in the back. I’m a keyboard player and I don’t even care. The show is awesome....
_________________________
Rudy

Stuff: Nord Electro 3, Casio PX5s, DSI Mopho keys, Nord Lead A1, Korg N5, Korg Poly 61, QSC K10 and a Shure SM58.

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#2896262 - 12/16/17 11:52 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: RudyS]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
Loc: Discovery Bay, California


Edited by GregC (12/16/17 11:54 AM)

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