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#2894154 - 12/05/17 03:35 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: TAdorno]
Happy Birthday CowboyNQ Offline
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Registered: 06/14/15
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Loc: Adelaide, Australia
I believe Ozzy hides his keys player off stage.

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#2894159 - 12/05/17 03:51 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: CowboyNQ]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: CowboyNQ
I believe Ozzy hides his keys player off stage.


So easily checked... snax

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#2894160 - 12/05/17 03:55 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Sven Golly]
Sven Golly Offline
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People, are we honestly having this discussion in 2017? Is it just a mass delusion that most KC members are suffering from, that audiences see things the way you, as keyboardists, do?

Frankly I think it's far sadder that we, who should be at the forefront of technology comprehension, are so stunned when that tech is used without having someone on stage pushing the buttons, because, at the end of the day, the vast majority of the audiences don't give a shit.

I saw Daryl Hall & John Oates earlier this year, with Tears For Fears opening. There was actually criticisms on social media from some "fans" that hated that H&O did alternate arrangements of hits.

Get over yourselves, people. The revolution came and went long ago, and it was televised, but you weren't paying attention. snax
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#2894165 - 12/05/17 04:28 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Sven Golly]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
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Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
People, are we honestly having this discussion in 2017? Is it just a mass delusion that most KC members are suffering from, that audiences see things the way you, as keyboardists, do?

Get over yourselves, people. The revolution came and went long ago, and it was televised, but you weren't paying attention. snax


( ***sarcastic post warning **)

But but, but, Swen. I live in my own bubble world where nothing else matters.

And its all about me, at least, thats what I gather from Facebook.

Are you trying to tell me the world does not evolve around me ???

I am not prepared to conform, thats for sure !

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#2894166 - 12/05/17 04:34 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
RABid Offline
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I was using drum machines, then computers, then audio tracks in the 80's. Gave up my right to criticize anyone else about doing it.
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#2894167 - 12/05/17 04:58 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: RABid]
Ledbetter Offline
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Loc: California
Then the final iteration of U2 will be a guy playing old recordings and charging $80 a ticket, and that's the future we should prepare for?

I thought this was a musician's forum.

I remember trying to keep the sequencer and drummer in sync in the 80's and the rest of the band playing their best to make it seamless. This is not what's happening with many bands today. If I'm going to see karaoke, I can download the backing tracks and do that at home. I wouldn't call it a performance though.

The truth is audiences don't care, as stated above. Maybe that's our fault for accepting it as the future of "live music."
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#2894170 - 12/05/17 05:35 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Ledbetter]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ledbetter
Then the final iteration of U2 will be a guy playing old recordings and charging $80 a ticket, and that's the future we should prepare for?


Who said that? U2 still has all of its original members and we've now established that they use a live keyboard player (including at the SNL performance even if you didn't see him on TV). I don't think anybody has definitively determined whether they use tracks or not and if they do it would likely only be in some of the newer stuff since there's no reason why they couldn't cover the stuff that they always have without them.
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#2894171 - 12/05/17 05:46 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Ledbetter]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ledbetter
Then the final iteration of U2 will be a guy playing old recordings and charging $80 a ticket, and that's the future we should prepare for?


The words you're looking for is non sequitur. snax

Quote:
I thought this was a musician's forum.


Apparently you also thought it was a "piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining" forum. wink Honestly, how is this surprising to anyone, when U2 has been doing this for literally a quarter of a century?

Quote:
If I'm going to see karaoke, I can download the backing tracks and do that at home. I wouldn't call it a performance though.


A laudable attitude which nobody is denying you. You don't like it? Don't watch. Don't buy a ticket. Make music your own way. However, if this is one of the windmills you're choosing to tilt at in 2017, Don Quixote, you're WAY late to the party.


Quote:
The truth is audiences don't care, as stated above. Maybe that's our fault for accepting it as the future of "live music."


Whether you choose to accept it or not, it is what it is. Audiences have been conditioned to hear virtually the same sounds as on the record in a live situation. U2 fans also only know about 4 members in the band.

If you want to feel better, go check out Muse. Only 3 "members" in the band, but they have their utility guy (keys, percussion, guitar, vocals) on stage with the as well. One of the many reasons I love them, and that I've spent money on their CDs and DVDs and, get this, their concert tickets every time they come to town, and haven't bought (or even really listened) to anything by U2 since Zooropa in 1991.




Edited by Sven Golly (12/05/17 05:47 PM)
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#2894173 - 12/05/17 06:00 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: TAdorno]
Stokely Offline
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I freaking hate tracks. They make me glad I'm not a pro musician where I'd feel like I need them to keep up with...whatever madness makes people want to hear fake players I guess. Ugh.

I'm starting to see little club cover bands using them. Just gross.

Edit: I give a pass to sound fx and noodly keyboard parts like Eminence Front. That's about it though.


Edited by Stokely (12/05/17 06:01 PM)

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#2894181 - 12/05/17 06:42 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Stokely]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stokely
I give a pass to sound fx and noodly keyboard parts like Eminence Front. That's about it though.


That's your line, but what makes that somehow morally superior to somebody else's line? This argument comes up repeatedly and always leaves me shaking my head.

Is Delay ok? Technically, you aren't really playing all of the echoes. It's recording what you played and then playing it back....kind of like a...."TRACK"!

OK, but that's at least triggered by what you're playing. How about an arpeggiator, also triggered by the chords you're holding down. Some people would say that's not live playing either because you aren't actually playing the arpeggio. But others would argue that if that's how it was originally done, then that's how you should do it. I mean, if you're playing Human League's "Don't You Want Me Baby", are you going to hire a whole extra guy just to stand there and hammer out 1/16 note C's for the whole song? Would that make it better?

So if arpeggiators are OK, how about sequences? It's still coming out of the keyboard and you recorded all the notes and you're triggering it real time by hitting the play button. Well, for that matter, you're hitting the play button on tracks as well, they don't just start by themselves, you know.

And finally, I just find it funny that you can have a 4 or 5 piece band playing all of their parts that they should be playing live and performing well, singing well, etc but if you then add to that a backing track of some synth pad all of a sudden the whole thing is fake and not live anymore. It doesn't change anything anybody on stage is doing.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894182 - 12/05/17 07:06 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
Tom Williams Offline
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Registered: 01/04/14
Posts: 647
Loc: West Virginia
I gotta say, it hit bottom with me at a festival this summer where the 3-piece (Guitar/Bass/Drums) band before us used sequences for brasses, keys, and backup vocals (Vocoder? Not sure; maybe audio in parallel to the MIDI...). The most talented musician was the drummer / sequencerist.

Then, amazingly, they used the sequencer to play a difficult bass solo while the bassist just sorta moved his fingers around, like Mike Nesmith playing the opening to Valleri.

Related: talent shows and open mic nights where the singer brings in the original song's MP3 -- which includes the original lead vocals -- sings with it, and hopes to be respected.
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#2894186 - 12/05/17 07:22 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Tom Williams]
J. Dan Offline
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Well I would agree that for me the line comes with actually faking it. If somebody uses a track for the horn section on one out of the 40 songs they do rather than hire a horn section for one song, fine. If they have guys standing up there all night pretending to play when they aren't, that's a whole different thing.

I don't even mind Karaoke - it's all about the singing. If the singer is good, it doesn't matter if they're singing in the shower, with a band, or karaoke, they're still a good singer. Now if they're using pitch correction or singing along with the lead track or faking it, I'm out.
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Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894188 - 12/05/17 07:23 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Tom Williams]
waygetter Offline
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Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 351
Loc: Sausalito, CA
For those of you who like to see the keyboards out front, here's a way to solve that problem - just have keyboards be the only instrument (besides drums). Like these guys





Edited by waygetter (12/05/17 07:25 PM)
Edit Reason: added video

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#2894189 - 12/05/17 07:24 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Sven Golly]
Happy Birthday CowboyNQ Offline
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Registered: 06/14/15
Posts: 640
Loc: Adelaide, Australia
Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
Originally Posted By: CowboyNQ
I believe Ozzy hides his keys player off stage.


So easily checked... snax


It is indeed. http://www.laweekly.com/music/inside-the-strange-hidden-world-of-offstage-touring-musicians-6539027

My reason for bringing this to the thread was to add some evidence that this sort of thing is not entirely unusual. I believe John Sinclair and Adam Wakeman have both fulfilled this "offstage keys player" role for Ozzy.

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#2894203 - 12/05/17 09:52 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
S_Gould Offline
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Registered: 03/27/01
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Loc: Port Charlotte ,FL,UNITED STAT...
At the end of this month I'm playing a gig (all originals) for the 1st time in almost a decade. There were a core of 4 musicians involved in the arranging and recording of the songs we're doing, and often up to 4 keyboard and 4 guitar tracks involved. We decided to arrange everything for the 4 of us, plus an acoustic guitarist (since there's acoustic on every track). I've never used an arpeggiator, sequencer or backing tracks on any performance.

I'm of two minds when it comes to major acts using backing tracks, etc. If there are iconic parts originally played by someone who is deceased, or otherwise no longer performs, I don't mind so much. If there are multiple tracks of studio overdubs which could easily be played by sidemen (whether hidden or on-stage) it kind of sticks in my craw.

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#2894204 - 12/05/17 09:55 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Synthoid]
Marzzz Offline
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Registered: 11/24/00
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Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Originally Posted By: rickzjamm
At that level U2 can afford a keyboardist, brass section & string quartet.
Probably wealthy enough to afford a small country by now. idk

Yes, they own Ireland...

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#2894208 - 12/05/17 10:56 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: S_Gould]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: S_Gould

I'm of two minds when it comes to major acts using backing tracks, etc. If there are iconic parts originally played by someone who is deceased, or otherwise no longer performs, I don't mind so much. If there are multiple tracks of studio overdubs which could easily be played by sidemen (whether hidden or on-stage) it kind of sticks in my craw.


I get what you're saying, but let me reiterate a finer point that I made earlier and bring it to the forefront. Since this thread was started regarding U2, I'll use them as an example. They started out with no keyboard player and no tracks. Everything live from the 4 of them as written and recorded. Later they added keys in the studio. They have a keyboard player playing live now in the concerts, even if he's offstage. Because he's ionly playing a fraction of the songs. So you could watch him on stage playing solitaire most of the night, or he could add parts that probably don't really fit unless they change the songs around, which fans don't wanna hear, or he can just play on the few songs that need keys, do it live, just not seen. He's got the gig either way, and it's live either way. Now I still haven't heard any proof of tracks with U2 but I suspect it's possible with the later stuff as they continurped to do more in the studio. So what would you have them do? Defy the laws of hoy sick to allow for vocal distortion in a concert venue without feedback (as an example)? Again, suppose 5% of the songs have a track with some sort of weird vocal effects, maybe a little percussion loop and some samples....so what? You gonna bring on a team to stand there all night and then trigger some samples on a few songs? Would that make them better? Is that what you went to see, or did you go to hear Bono hit the high notes on Pride and Edge do the syncopated rhythms on guitar?

As for local bands, around here most the bands that use tracks do it because there aren't enough talented keyboard players. I turn down a few full time gigs per year, minimum. I see some of those bands give up and go to tracks. They don't want to do it.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894234 - 12/06/17 06:58 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
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Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
[quote=S_Gould]

As for local bands, around here most the bands that use tracks do it because there aren't enough talented keyboard players. I turn down a few full time gigs per year, minimum. I see some of those bands give up and go to tracks. They don't want to do it.


There are talented keyboard players out there, at least in my urban area, but they are driven by more lucrative economic interests, such as a ( corporate) job that pays $100,000 per year. If they are raising a family, there is little spare time.

And bands are also driven by economic interests. If they can get by by not having a keyboardist, they will certainly do some tracks, and take advantage of technology.

Similar to numerous careers in the cold corporate world, technology eliminates jobs and careers. This has been going on/accelerating for almost 20 years.

If you are involved in a career in this downward economic spiral, your skill and talent ( which is considerable) has been marginalized.

And this shit happens every day to possibly millions of workers.

The economics is that big bad picture I always bring up. If you are hoping to make some decent money in a career, you should look at the underlying economics. Economically, you are forced into hard choices.

I find it painful to see fine tuned keyboard skills marginalized by fickle bands. And name groups that shove the keyboard player into a shadow in back of the stage, out of sight of the ' performers'. I suppose some might be trying to find a better gig and see it as a step to something. Other than that, screw it. Its not for me.





Edited by GregC (12/06/17 07:18 AM)

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#2894289 - 12/06/17 11:45 AM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
Reezekeys Offline
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Loc: NYC area
We're all so high on technology except when it interferes with our purist views of how live music is made.

Put me underneath a stage with U2 or some other major act, and assuming it pays a fair wage you will see me with a big smile on my face.

And as far as adding parts to reproduce what was on a record maybe it's the band that wants it that way, and they're not doing it only because "that's what the audience wants to hear."

And imo this is completely different from faking it to a sequence. Not the same thing by any stretch. That's just plain sad.

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#2894298 - 12/06/17 12:18 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: Reezekeys]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
We're all so high on technology except when it interferes with our purist views of how live music is made.

Put me underneath a stage with U2 or some other major act, and assuming it pays a fair wage you will see me with a big smile on my face.



I like your 1st point.

To me, its not primarily about the money. I understand you need to be compensated.
IOW, I don't have the mercenary approach ( as long as one is paid so what) if it involves putting me out of sight.

I am not as impressed with rubbing elbows with U2 if thats the ' gig '. That is essentially
a fan sentiment vs having a musical role.

And i feel its not worth bragging about, either.

Different strokes, etc, etc.

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#2894364 - 12/06/17 06:02 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
waygetter Offline
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Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 351
Loc: Sausalito, CA
I personally like the offstage gigs. Oh yeah... have a nice little room, got your boards set up, play a little bit here and there. Got the big screen TV going, the laptop, the iPad, got some pizza, some beers, a milkshake. Get a little foot massage going, watch some Gilligan's Island reruns, play a few parts, get back to the couch, a little Facebook, some KC posts. What could be better? thu

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#2894378 - 12/06/17 07:25 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: GregC]
waygetter Offline
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Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 351
Loc: Sausalito, CA
Originally Posted By: GregC
There are talented keyboard players out there, at least in my urban area, but they are driven by more lucrative economic interests, such as a ( corporate) job that pays $100,000 per year.

FYI... $100,000 in the Bay Area is considered low income
Sxi figures is low income

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#2894390 - 12/06/17 09:56 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: waygetter]
J. Dan Offline
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Yeah, the cost of living is so much ridiculously less around here, it's like night and day. 15 yrs ago I bought my 3 story, 5 bedroom, 3-1/2 bath house with a yard and off street parking near Forest Park, the zoo, etc for $199k. I'm guessing in the Bay Area that would buy me a guest room over somebody's garage. I remember once figuring out that rent for a 400 sq ft apartment in Manhattan was roughly the same as my mortgage.

Anyway, even as a weekend warrior, there are good opportunities for keyboard players around here. I used to pull in an extra $40k/yr just doing local Friday and Saturday nights - mostly bars. Had to give it up due to schedule after the divorce. I know local cover bands that aren't even tributes pulling $60-70k each which around here is enough that if you supplement it teaching lessons and doing some side projects can support a modest living.

But again, I think at least here (which admittedly is not representative of other places) keys are appreciated and in demand. Folks here recognize that bands use tracks and generally chastise them for it though it doesn't keep them away. In fact sometimes I've run into problems where people assume we're using tracks because it sounds too good and you have to assure them you aren't. But St. Louis is maybe unique. Some would say we're just behind the rest of the country, that eventually we'll be as musically illiterate and DJ focussed as the rest of the country....as if that's a good thing and we're somehow backwoods or something because we still appreciate live music.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894391 - 12/06/17 10:08 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: J. Dan
But St. Louis is maybe unique. Some would say we're just behind the rest of the country, that eventually we'll be as musically illiterate and DJ focussed as the rest of the country....as if that's a good thing and we're somehow backwoods or something because we still appreciate live music.


All hail KSHE!
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#2894397 - 12/06/17 10:34 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: mate stubb]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: mate stubb
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
But St. Louis is maybe unique. Some would say we're just behind the rest of the country, that eventually we'll be as musically illiterate and DJ focussed as the rest of the country....as if that's a good thing and we're somehow backwoods or something because we still appreciate live music.


All hail KSHE!


You know I have to think that KSHE is actually a big part of it. I mean they are sponsoring trivpbute bands that are selling out outdoor amphitheaters, arenas, etc. longest running station in the country of same format. Not to be underestimated.
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Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894398 - 12/06/17 10:34 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: mate stubb]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2723
Loc: California
I just found some fan video from a mainstage show this summer. Five-piece band including the singer, who is the Artist In Charge. Most of the video is on the AIC, as it should be. But the guy who took it, panned across the stage to show the whole band. The set-up was: Me, bass player sorta off my left elbow, AIC, drummer, guitarist.

The pan showed: Bass player, BL, drummer, guitarist.

#sigh
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#2894399 - 12/06/17 10:36 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MathOfInsects]
J. Dan Offline
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Control the video. My last band, I set up the camera on me, lol!!!! Not joking. Also, when I was BL, the guys I hired to shoot video knew they better include the guy who hired them.
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Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894402 - 12/06/17 10:44 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Registered: 02/04/15
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Loc: California
No, I don't need vid of me. I was just noting the attention of the guy who shot that vid. EBK. Everyone But Keyboardist.
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#2894404 - 12/06/17 10:49 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: MathOfInsects]
J. Dan Offline
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Registered: 07/25/08
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Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
No, I don't need vid of me. I was just noting the attention of the guy who shot that vid. EBK. Everyone But Keyboardist.


I would like to see video of you, I'm starting to doubt that you actually exist. I've been hearing a lot lately about AI.
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Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894406 - 12/06/17 10:53 PM Re: U2 on SNL: Where was the keyboardist? [Re: J. Dan]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Posts: 2723
Loc: California
I posted one a week or two ago. It's up in the Shameless Plugs.
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